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 Torus wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Those two examples do nothing to disprove my point. The Eldar having a plan against Chaos doesn't necessarily mean it benefits humanity.

How does it not benefit humanity? Chaos being crippled, or a more potent threat stopped obviously helps both parties.

It's not done for humanity's sake though.

It's like us humans growing and mass producing crops. It's great for the harvest mice and animals that would eat the crops, but it's certainly not done for their sake.

The Eldar do not care that it happens to benefit humanity. All that matters to them is that they survive a little longer.

I'm not saying that they are benevolent, nothing in Warhammer is, every action that every faction tries to do is for themselves and only themselves. Occasionally their motivations align, and your right, any alliances between he two races only happen because both parties believe that it benefits them.

It's just struck me as silly that you'd hunt down an potential (albeit caprecious) ally that has helped against Nid's, Chaos, and Orks previously - especially Ulthwe.

Between Dark Eldar, Orks,'Nids,'Crons have always been the bigger threat.

And I'm sorry but killing 25% of the Chaos pantheon would be a massive net plus for humanity, even at the cost of a few billion human lives.

Again, I know, fully accept and recognize that both the Imperium and the Eldar Craftworld wouldn't grieve for for any loss of life on either side. I mearly suggest that the Imperium and Eldar's goals align more than the other xeno races out there, and logic should dictate that you direct your resources to combat the larger threats out there.

But obviously it seems like i'm in the minority here so I'll just keep quiet from now on.

To the eldar 100 years is close and they react to that threat in that time scale to the imperium 100 years is 2 generations away and wont see that problem but will react to the immidiate attack.
So eldar long term (to humans) and imperium very short term (to the eldar) and rarely will they meet.

As to why deathwarch would fight eldar, its simple eldar are xeno therefore a target.

 Torus wrote:
I'm not saying that they are benevolent, nothing in Warhammer is, every action that every faction tries to do is for themselves and only themselves. Occasionally their motivations align, and your right, any alliances between he two races only happen because both parties believe that it benefits them.

It's just struck me as silly that you'd hunt down an potential (albeit caprecious) ally that has helped against Nid's, Chaos, and Orks previously - especially Ulthwe.

Between Dark Eldar, Orks,'Nids,'Crons have always been the bigger threat.

And I'm sorry but killing 25% of the Chaos pantheon would be a massive net plus for humanity, even at the cost of a few billion human lives.

Again, I know, fully accept and recognize that both the Imperium and the Eldar Craftworld wouldn't grieve for for any loss of life on either side. I mearly suggest that the Imperium and Eldar's goals align more than the other xeno races out there, and logic should dictate that you direct your resources to combat the larger threats out there.

But obviously it seems like i'm in the minority here so I'll just keep quiet from now on.

Potential ally also means potential not-ally. And as an ancient leader of Old Earth once said "If you're not with us, you're against us."

Skullhammer wrote:


As to why deathwarch would fight eldar, its simple eldar are xeno therefore a target.

Those clowns have set foot on terra and came way to close to assassinate the emperor himself in the past, they even claimed to be send by eldrad. Of course they are high on the these xenos species to murder first list.

Potential ally also means potential not-ally. And as an ancient leader of Old Earth once said "If you're not with us, you're against us."

I prefer the Andromeda version - "The Enemy of My Enemy is still My Enemy."

locarno24 wrote:

Potential ally also means potential not-ally. And as an ancient leader of Old Earth once said "If you're not with us, you're against us."

I prefer the Andromeda version - "The Enemy of My Enemy is still My Enemy."

That works too, though my top 3 are still "Suffer not the Alien to live," "Death to Xenos" and "Purge the filthy pointy-ears

Lets say that the Eldar master plan involves killing Slaanesh with Ynnead, and they need to sacrifice an Imperial world to do so. Imperials respond with vengeance, unaware of Eldar plan. Or, lets say that the death of Slaanesh is going to cause a warp rift on scale with the eye of terror, just like its birth. But, this one is in the heart of the Imperium instead of the Eldar empire. Imperium catches wind and tries to assassinate Eldrad. Or lets say that the Deathwatch are actually trying to infiltrate the black library to acquire invaluable knowledge/relics for the Imperium.

EDIT: It should also be mentioned that one line in the Eldar prophecy (part 4) is "the blackened shield becomes the sword". It is possible that this is referring to the Deathwatch. If the Eldar were traipsing through Imperial space and a Death watch team showed up to kill them, its possible they could be seen by the Eldar as shielding Slaanesh by trying to stop them from killing it. But, Eldrad explains what they're doing and an alliance is formed, if an uneasy one, as even the Ordo Xenos realizes how big killing Slaanesh would be. So, the blackened Shield becomes a sword to strike at Slaanesh.

 jifel wrote:
Lets say that the Eldar master plan involves killing Slaanesh with Ynnead, and they need to sacrifice an Imperial world to do so. Imperials respond with vengeance, unaware of Eldar plan. Or, lets say that the death of Slaanesh is going to cause a warp rift on scale with the eye of terror, just like its birth. But, this one is in the heart of the Imperium instead of the Eldar empire. Imperium catches wind and tries to assassinate Eldrad. Or lets say that the Deathwatch are actually trying to infiltrate the black library to acquire invaluable knowledge/relics for the Imperium.

EDIT: It should also be mentioned that one line in the Eldar prophecy (part 4) is "the blackened shield becomes the sword". It is possible that this is referring to the Deathwatch. If the Eldar were traipsing through Imperial space and a Death watch team showed up to kill them, its possible they could be seen by the Eldar as shielding Slaanesh by trying to stop them from killing it. But, Eldrad explains what they're doing and an alliance is formed, if an uneasy one, as even the Ordo Xenos realizes how big killing Slaanesh would be. So, the blackened Shield becomes a sword to strike at Slaanesh.

Except that 99% of the Imperium has no idea what Slaanesh is and care less because its all filthy xenos trickery. Even though the Imperium values its people less than its bullets, the lives of a single human are worth more than the lives of every Eldar, Ork and Tau put together.

 Deadshot wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Lets say that the Eldar master plan involves killing Slaanesh with Ynnead, and they need to sacrifice an Imperial world to do so. Imperials respond with vengeance, unaware of Eldar plan. Or, lets say that the death of Slaanesh is going to cause a warp rift on scale with the eye of terror, just like its birth. But, this one is in the heart of the Imperium instead of the Eldar empire. Imperium catches wind and tries to assassinate Eldrad. Or lets say that the Deathwatch are actually trying to infiltrate the black library to acquire invaluable knowledge/relics for the Imperium.

EDIT: It should also be mentioned that one line in the Eldar prophecy (part 4) is "the blackened shield becomes the sword". It is possible that this is referring to the Deathwatch. If the Eldar were traipsing through Imperial space and a Death watch team showed up to kill them, its possible they could be seen by the Eldar as shielding Slaanesh by trying to stop them from killing it. But, Eldrad explains what they're doing and an alliance is formed, if an uneasy one, as even the Ordo Xenos realizes how big killing Slaanesh would be. So, the blackened Shield becomes a sword to strike at Slaanesh.

Except that 99% of the Imperium has no idea what Slaanesh is and care less because its all filthy xenos trickery. Even though the Imperium values its people less than its bullets, the lives of a single human are worth more than the lives of every Eldar, Ork and Tau put together.

I'm willing to bet that every single Space Marine in the Imperium is familiar with the idea of the Gods of Chaos. They may not acknowledge them as gods, but are aware that the powers of the warp exist and know how huge it would be to kill one of the four. Sure an Imperial citizen wouldn't know, but an Inquisitor or a Deathwatch Kill team would at least acknowledge the concept.

 jifel wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Lets say that the Eldar master plan involves killing Slaanesh with Ynnead, and they need to sacrifice an Imperial world to do so. Imperials respond with vengeance, unaware of Eldar plan. Or, lets say that the death of Slaanesh is going to cause a warp rift on scale with the eye of terror, just like its birth. But, this one is in the heart of the Imperium instead of the Eldar empire. Imperium catches wind and tries to assassinate Eldrad. Or lets say that the Deathwatch are actually trying to infiltrate the black library to acquire invaluable knowledge/relics for the Imperium.

EDIT: It should also be mentioned that one line in the Eldar prophecy (part 4) is "the blackened shield becomes the sword". It is possible that this is referring to the Deathwatch. If the Eldar were traipsing through Imperial space and a Death watch team showed up to kill them, its possible they could be seen by the Eldar as shielding Slaanesh by trying to stop them from killing it. But, Eldrad explains what they're doing and an alliance is formed, if an uneasy one, as even the Ordo Xenos realizes how big killing Slaanesh would be. So, the blackened Shield becomes a sword to strike at Slaanesh.

Except that 99% of the Imperium has no idea what Slaanesh is and care less because its all filthy xenos trickery. Even though the Imperium values its people less than its bullets, the lives of a single human are worth more than the lives of every Eldar, Ork and Tau put together.

I'm willing to bet that every single Space Marine in the Imperium is familiar with the idea of the Gods of Chaos. They may not acknowledge them as gods, but are aware that the powers of the warp exist and know how huge it would be to kill one of the four. Sure an Imperial citizen wouldn't know, but an Inquisitor or a Deathwatch Kill team would at least acknowledge the concept.

That's not what GK codex says, ie, the premium information on what the Imperium knows about Chaos (because the GK have all that info). And what that says is that the wider Astartes contingent know of the warp, and of traitors, but not exactly what the connection is, or that there is a connection at all. It therefore stands to reason that the wider Imperium have no concept of the Gods or their existence. In fact, it would be contradictory to let them know about the gods. When you don't know the Gods exist you can't actively worship them (the Emperor's original plan). I mean, is it really a good idea to tell a bunch of supersolider-monks who's fate is to die in relentless battle that there are gods who reward bloodthirty slaughter (which Marines are good at), ambitiousness (Tzeentch), massively increase your lifespan and durability so you don't die in combat, and then Slaanesh who rewards selfishness and self-pleasure, ie, the exact opposite of what the Imperium has demanded of them?

Does Eldrad share his plan with the Imperium? Because if not I see no reason why they'd let him do whatever he wants which could be (and many times has been) hostile to the Imperium.


That said I still don't know where you're all getting this information from.

 Deadshot wrote:

 jifel wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Lets say that the Eldar master plan involves killing Slaanesh with Ynnead, and they need to sacrifice an Imperial world to do so. Imperials respond with vengeance, unaware of Eldar plan. Or, lets say that the death of Slaanesh is going to cause a warp rift on scale with the eye of terror, just like its birth. But, this one is in the heart of the Imperium instead of the Eldar empire. Imperium catches wind and tries to assassinate Eldrad. Or lets say that the Deathwatch are actually trying to infiltrate the black library to acquire invaluable knowledge/relics for the Imperium.

EDIT: It should also be mentioned that one line in the Eldar prophecy (part 4) is "the blackened shield becomes the sword". It is possible that this is referring to the Deathwatch. If the Eldar were traipsing through Imperial space and a Death watch team showed up to kill them, its possible they could be seen by the Eldar as shielding Slaanesh by trying to stop them from killing it. But, Eldrad explains what they're doing and an alliance is formed, if an uneasy one, as even the Ordo Xenos realizes how big killing Slaanesh would be. So, the blackened Shield becomes a sword to strike at Slaanesh.

Except that 99% of the Imperium has no idea what Slaanesh is and care less because its all filthy xenos trickery. Even though the Imperium values its people less than its bullets, the lives of a single human are worth more than the lives of every Eldar, Ork and Tau put together.

I'm willing to bet that every single Space Marine in the Imperium is familiar with the idea of the Gods of Chaos. They may not acknowledge them as gods, but are aware that the powers of the warp exist and know how huge it would be to kill one of the four. Sure an Imperial citizen wouldn't know, but an Inquisitor or a Deathwatch Kill team would at least acknowledge the concept.

That's not what GK codex says, ie, the premium information on what the Imperium knows about Chaos (because the GK have all that info). And what that says is that the wider Astartes contingent know of the warp, and of traitors, but not exactly what the connection is, or that there is a connection at all. It therefore stands to reason that the wider Imperium have no concept of the Gods or their existence. In fact, it would be contradictory to let them know about the gods. When you don't know the Gods exist you can't actively worship them (the Emperor's original plan). I mean, is it really a good idea to tell a bunch of supersolider-monks who's fate is to die in relentless battle that there are gods who reward bloodthirty slaughter (which Marines are good at), ambitiousness (Tzeentch), massively increase your lifespan and durability so you don't die in combat, and then Slaanesh who rewards selfishness and self-pleasure, ie, the exact opposite of what the Imperium has demanded of them?

The majority of the Imperium is unaware of Chaos yes. That doesnt mean that Space Marines arent aware of Chaos. Every Space Marine is aware of the existence of Chaos Space Marines, and also knows that they are corrupted by chaos powers. Space Marines fight chaos cults all the time, and are never mind wiped or killed off afterwards. They just keep fighting, and are taught to resist corruption by their chaplains. Is this 100% effective? Obviously not, but they are all aware of the Chaos powers.

 jifel wrote:
Space Marines fight chaos cults all the time, and are never mind wiped or killed off afterwards. They just keep fighting, and are taught to resist corruption by their chaplains. Is this 100% effective? Obviously not, but they are all aware of the Chaos powers.

Blood Angels under Dante were mind-wiped with his permission (I think he himself was allowed to retain his memories) after facing a Daemonic incursion if I recall correctly.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Space Marines fight chaos cults all the time, and are never mind wiped or killed off afterwards. They just keep fighting, and are taught to resist corruption by their chaplains. Is this 100% effective? Obviously not, but they are all aware of the Chaos powers.

Blood Angels under Dante were mind-wiped with his permission (I think he himself was allowed to retain his memories) after facing a Daemonic incursion if I recall correctly.

That was due to the Grey Knights being there, it was the GK whose presence was being kept secret, not Daemons. But, the GK entire fluff is terrible.

 jifel wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Space Marines fight chaos cults all the time, and are never mind wiped or killed off afterwards. They just keep fighting, and are taught to resist corruption by their chaplains. Is this 100% effective? Obviously not, but they are all aware of the Chaos powers.

Blood Angels under Dante were mind-wiped with his permission (I think he himself was allowed to retain his memories) after facing a Daemonic incursion if I recall correctly.

That was due to the Grey Knights being there, it was the GK whose presence was being kept secret, not Daemons. But, the GK entire fluff is terrible.

The idea of the Grey Knights being super secretive MIB types who no one is supposed to know about COULD be cool, but the execution is awful. 90% of the time, writers don't acknowledge it's a thing, making the 10% of the time they do seem jarring and pointless.

 jifel wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 jifel wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Lets say that the Eldar master plan involves killing Slaanesh with Ynnead, and they need to sacrifice an Imperial world to do so. Imperials respond with vengeance, unaware of Eldar plan. Or, lets say that the death of Slaanesh is going to cause a warp rift on scale with the eye of terror, just like its birth. But, this one is in the heart of the Imperium instead of the Eldar empire. Imperium catches wind and tries to assassinate Eldrad. Or lets say that the Deathwatch are actually trying to infiltrate the black library to acquire invaluable knowledge/relics for the Imperium.

EDIT: It should also be mentioned that one line in the Eldar prophecy (part 4) is "the blackened shield becomes the sword". It is possible that this is referring to the Deathwatch. If the Eldar were traipsing through Imperial space and a Death watch team showed up to kill them, its possible they could be seen by the Eldar as shielding Slaanesh by trying to stop them from killing it. But, Eldrad explains what they're doing and an alliance is formed, if an uneasy one, as even the Ordo Xenos realizes how big killing Slaanesh would be. So, the blackened Shield becomes a sword to strike at Slaanesh.

Except that 99% of the Imperium has no idea what Slaanesh is and care less because its all filthy xenos trickery. Even though the Imperium values its people less than its bullets, the lives of a single human are worth more than the lives of every Eldar, Ork and Tau put together.

I'm willing to bet that every single Space Marine in the Imperium is familiar with the idea of the Gods of Chaos. They may not acknowledge them as gods, but are aware that the powers of the warp exist and know how huge it would be to kill one of the four. Sure an Imperial citizen wouldn't know, but an Inquisitor or a Deathwatch Kill team would at least acknowledge the concept.

That's not what GK codex says, ie, the premium information on what the Imperium knows about Chaos (because the GK have all that info). And what that says is that the wider Astartes contingent know of the warp, and of traitors, but not exactly what the connection is, or that there is a connection at all. It therefore stands to reason that the wider Imperium have no concept of the Gods or their existence. In fact, it would be contradictory to let them know about the gods. When you don't know the Gods exist you can't actively worship them (the Emperor's original plan). I mean, is it really a good idea to tell a bunch of supersolider-monks who's fate is to die in relentless battle that there are gods who reward bloodthirty slaughter (which Marines are good at), ambitiousness (Tzeentch), massively increase your lifespan and durability so you don't die in combat, and then Slaanesh who rewards selfishness and self-pleasure, ie, the exact opposite of what the Imperium has demanded of them?

The majority of the Imperium is unaware of Chaos yes. That doesnt mean that Space Marines arent aware of Chaos. Every Space Marine is aware of the existence of Chaos Space Marines, and also knows that they are corrupted by chaos powers. Space Marines fight chaos cults all the time, and are never mind wiped or killed off afterwards. They just keep fighting, and are taught to resist corruption by their chaplains. Is this 100% effective? Obviously not, but they are all aware of the Chaos powers.

Aware of Chaos? Yes? Aware of what Chaos actually is? No. To them Chaos is just a term. Chaos Space Marines are just traitors, serving their own delusions and dabbling in filthy warp-magic. Filthy filthy filthy heretics. But the actual nature of Chaos and the Dark Gods and Daemons? No. I mean, no one can join the mob if they have never heard of the mob. You can't become a radicalised Muslim convert/ISIS extremist if you've never heard of ISIS or Islam. You can't join the IRA if you don't know what the IRA stands for. But you can certainly be told "They are disgusting PoS who want to destroy everything you love and fight to protect" and that's all they need.

Exactly. The Imperium is fine with the general public knowing there are worlds of filthy heretics who worship horrible, horrible monsters and who want to destroy everything good and holy about the Imperium.

In fact, the 'siege mentality' the Imperium tries very hard to maintain kind of demands it.

But there are stages of knowledge.

Knowing daemons exist in a sense of "Emperor, protect me from the corruption of daemons" - in a purely theological, don't be a heretic or you're damned in the afterlife, sense is fine - daemons are even mentioned in the Fede Imperialis (Ecclesiarchy analogue to the Lord's Prayer).

Knowing daemons exist in a "your relative has just been stabbed by an incarnate bloothirster" and "The chaos gods are real and more than happy to grant you immortality and ulimited power in return for your soul" is definitely not okay for general knowledge.

Most of them won't even know about chaos marines - marines, in so far as anyone's aware of them - are the Emperor's Angels. The idea that they could betray the Emperor is not a subject the Imperium is happy for people to discuss. And that goes double for the Daemon Primarchs - which is the reason the Ordo Malleus was so over-hyper-focused at Armageddon.

Blood Angels under Dante were mind-wiped with his permission (I think he himself was allowed to retain his memories) after facing a Daemonic incursion if I recall correctly.

All Chapter Masters do and all (theoretically) are aware of Daemons and the Grey Knights.

Knowledge of the daemonic within a chapter would be variable - depending on whether mind-wiping was a thing, plus the chapter's battle history and philosophical leanings. Regardless, the Librarius is going to know about such things.

The Deathwatch? Well, whilst the Deathwatch is primarily an Ordo Xenos organisation, it's also a chamber militant of the Inquisition, and hence it's senior members are likely to be much better informed on all sorts of forbidden topics than your average marine.

 Orblivion wrote:
If they thought they could destroy Slaanesh by sacrificing all human life to the other 3, they would probably do it.

You can remove that "probably".

If it's good for Eldar they will happily sacrifice every other race in the galaxy. They are looking for one thing and one thing only. Return of Eldar to good old days they ruled the galaxy. Not let some other race dominate the galaxy.

Yes, because it was written by Cs Gotto and thus it deserves only the trash can.

I'm pretty sure not even GW considers what he wrote canon anymore.

 Torus wrote:
I'm not saying that they are benevolent, nothing in Warhammer is, every action that every faction tries to do is for themselves and only themselves. Occasionally their motivations align, and your right, any alliances between he two races only happen because both parties believe that it benefits them.

It's just struck me as silly that you'd hunt down an potential (albeit caprecious) ally that has helped against Nid's, Chaos, and Orks previously - especially Ulthwe.

So let's see. Eldars are happy killing and attacking human worlds and you think IoM will do NO ACTION WHATSOEVER against them?

Don't forget: Eldar actively launches attacks against IoM constantly. They aren't just fighting chaos. They are fighting anybody and anything that stands between them and their goal. And often enough that is IoM.

Considering the game takes place in an imperial port, it's safe to say that the Eldar are the ones launching an attack, and the Deathwatch are dispatched to respond to the incursion.

So, yes, the Imoerium is well within their (even moral!) rights to try to kill the hell out of the harlequins and Eldrad in this instance.

tneva82 wrote:

 Torus wrote:
I'm not saying that they are benevolent, nothing in Warhammer is, every action that every faction tries to do is for themselves and only themselves. Occasionally their motivations align, and your right, any alliances between he two races only happen because both parties believe that it benefits them.

It's just struck me as silly that you'd hunt down an potential (albeit caprecious) ally that has helped against Nid's, Chaos, and Orks previously - especially Ulthwe.

So let's see. Eldars are happy killing and attacking human worlds and you think IoM will do NO ACTION WHATSOEVER against them?

Don't forget: Eldar actively launches attacks against IoM constantly. They aren't just fighting chaos. They are fighting anybody and anything that stands between them and their goal. And often enough that is IoM.

Really the fact that the Eldar help so much means the Imperium isn't willing to go through the effort to chase them down because it's so hard. They don't have any reason to allow the Eldar to do whatever they like unless the local authorities are complete idiots.

Sure, it makes perfect sense. Eldrad is a high value target, and sending regular marines against Eldrad guarded by Harlequins would just result in dead marines, so Deathwatch it is.

Just because they have a mutual enemy, doesn't mean they're friends.

 Robin5t wrote:
Sure, it makes perfect sense. Eldrad is a high value target, and sending regular marines against Eldrad guarded by Harlequins would just result in dead marines, so Deathwatch it is.

Just because they have a mutual enemy, doesn't mean they're friends.

"The enemy of my enemy is still my enemy" - Someone I cba to google

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Warhammer-40000-Death-Masque-ENG

The text for the game suggests that the Deathwatch are aware (or become aware) of Eldrad's plan to awaken Ynnead, and sure, Ynnead might mean Slaanesh is knocked down a peg or two, but Ynnead is still "new alien god" and that's probably going to ring some alarm bells for the Deathwatch.

We have no idea what Ynnead really means for the Eldar and their position within the galaxy aside from having some sort of role in their battle against Slaanesh. If the humans are putting a lot of stock into the Emperor being reborn somehow being their IWin button, why can Ynnead not represent a similar thing for the Eldar?

All in all, it's something humanity would be interested in stopping, out of fear of what might happen if nothing else, Slaanesh or no Slaanesh.

krakentendrilswarm wrote:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Warhammer-40000-Death-Masque-ENG

The text for the game suggests that the Deathwatch are aware (or become aware) of Eldrad's plan to awaken Ynnead, and sure, Ynnead might mean Slaanesh is knocked down a peg or two, but Ynnead is still "new alien god" and that's probably going to ring some alarm bells for the Deathwatch.

We have no idea what Ynnead really means for the Eldar and their position within the galaxy aside from having some sort of role in their battle against Slaanesh. If the humans are putting a lot of stock into the Emperor being reborn somehow being their IWin button, why can Ynnead not represent a similar thing for the Eldar?

All in all, it's something humanity would be interested in stopping, out of fear of what might happen if nothing else, Slaanesh or no Slaanesh.

As long the Deathwatch it's somehow aware about the Eldar fate and the effect Slaanesh has on them.

If the Eldar manage to become *free* of Slaanesh they no longer need to fight for survival and can find a really really good reason to put aside all Craftworlds differences and join together as a single force.

In the end the Imperium can find annoying a group of scattered Craftworlds trying to survive but all them united it's a major threat.

Honestly, I doubt the Deathwatch really know that this has anything to do with Ynnead. I think they're basically just going 'Eldar want the shiny thing, let's kill them before they get the shiny thing because we all know Xenos aren't allowed shiny things.'