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Prestor Jon wrote: We don't have a democracy we have a representative republic.
You have a representative democracy.
"Republic" just means you don't have a king.
Thanks you.
People saying "we aren't a democracy, we're a republic" is a serious pet peeve of mine. I feel like it's one of those things that came from a Patheos blog and people just repeat it ad nauseam to make themselves look smarter.
To an extent it's true though IMO.
Why isn't the President elected by popular vote rather than the college system?
Why did the founders want to preserve the Senate from the "fury of democracy", thus resulting in no direct elections for the Senate until 1915 or something?
No country on Earth is a 'pure' democracy, and the USA is no different from that, but I think it's a valid argument to say that the USA is a Republic with checks and balances on democracy.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
d-usa wrote: I think the point is that being a "republic" isn't all that related to having democratically elected representatives.
In a sense, saying "we are not a democracy, we are a Republic" makes as much sense as saying "we are not a democracy, we speak English".
I know what you're saying, but even here, Britain is still technically a monarchy, despite the civil war and the glorious revolution settling the issue in favour of parliament, and our Queen's representative in Australia, the governor general, once gave the Australian government the boot, as he exercised the Queen's powers as head of state of Australia. This was back in the 1970s or something.
Our head of state is unelected. Our version of the senate is unelected. Our Prime Minster is unelected! We have a major constitutional crisis on our hands with BREXIT and with Scotland. Basically, states rights Vs. Federal Rights
But somehow we're still a democracy.
Government is complicated.
I've been studying American history for years, and I'm still not 100% sure of how your government system works.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
d-usa wrote: I think the point is that being a "republic" isn't all that related to having democratically elected representatives.
In a sense, saying "we are not a democracy, we are a Republic" makes as much sense as saying "we are not a democracy, we speak English".
I know what you're saying, but even here, Britain is still technically a monarchy, despite the civil war and the glorious revolution settling the issue in favour of parliament, and our Queen's representative in Australia, the governor general, once gave the Australian government the boot, as he exercised the Queen's powers as head of state of Australia. This was back in the 1970s or something.
Our head of state is unelected. Our version of the senate is unelected. Our Prime Minster is unelected! We have a major constitutional crisis on our hands with BREXIT and with Scotland. Basically, states rights Vs. Federal Rights
But somehow we're still a democracy.
Government is complicated.
I've been studying American history for years, and I'm still not 100% sure of how your government system works.
we have a 3 ring circus Not shown, the ring master who funnels in millions of dollars to get people elected who will propose laws that grants them a huge return on investment. otherwise knows as the 1%.
I don't want to be too cynical about the USA, because in its early years, the sense of civic duty, Republican ideals, and democratic principal were genuine.
I still hold that the 1st amendment is some of the greatest lines ever put to paper by mankind: Congress SHALL make no law...
No ifs, buts or maybe's there...
Nobody would have the guts or the principals to write or make a law defending free speech along those lines in this day and age...
There would be conditions attached.
That being said, as an outsider, and neutral observer, I do think that money has corrupted US politics to an unhealthy degree.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
godardc wrote: I don't have a lot of information about all this, but, since the leaks show that the Democrats aren't honest (paying people to protest, Hillary Clinton deleting her emails, the democrat "primary" biaised in favour of Hillary Clinton...), do they have some "problems" with the Police, or at least, with people ?
The same is happening here with a party (which, ironically, recently called themselves "The Republicans"): a lot of shenanigans, their primary was rigged, their president is in trouble with the Justice (some even say he wants to run the Presidency to avoid Justice). But people, especially people from The Republicans, don't seem disturbed.
The only reason the Democrats are taking a pounding in this regard is because of the leaks...
I know I sound like a broken record sometimes, but I guarantee you the Republicans are doing the same thing. It's just that the Democrats got caught.
And you're right, the Clinton supporters don't care about her faults... just as the Trump supporters don't care either.
...also, organizations like wikileaks isn't our 'friend' and it's a shame that partisan yahoo is jumping into this with blinders on...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/27 13:46:19
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I don't want to be too cynical about the USA, because in its early years, the sense of civic duty, Republican ideals, and democratic principal were genuine.
I still hold that the 1st amendment is some of the greatest lines ever put to paper by mankind: Congress SHALL make no law...
No ifs, buts or maybe's there...
Nobody would have the guts or the principals to write or make a law defending free speech along those lines in this day and age...
There would be conditions attached.
That being said, as an outsider, and neutral observer, I do think that money has corrupted US politics to an unhealthy degree.
As much as I've been rather impassioned in my posts and debates on this board, at the end of the day there is no reason to panic or be cycnical. That said, I think Trump would be an unmitigated disaster for the USA, it's standing in the world and it's fundamental ideals and I'd prefer not to have to live through 4 years of just, horrible. But in reality, as I posted earlier in this thread, some times the baby needs to touch the hot stove to remember why it's a bad idea.
We're a young, cocky country that, in my opinion, has lost some critical perspective. The collapse of 2008/9 put the zap on the minds of a lot of people in this country...and around the world...and it's caused the rise of the whole "Out with the old, in with the new at any cost" fear-addled, rage mindset. When an individual like Trump can attract people with a slogan like "Make America Great Again", when it flies in the face of how good things actually are right now, then you have to view it from a macro lens that accepts that this is just part and parcel of how things will play out in the aftermath of said global exogenous shock. The retreat of people to fundamental values in the wake of catastrophe is just human nature. Unfortunately, it gives birth to fundamentalism and extreme partisanship. This must some times just run it's course and burn itself out. Hopefully, calmer heads will prevail before the carnage leaves scars that are too deep to heal.
Will we survive? Sure. Our core values will win out at the end of the day, this I believe. Will we recover before we do more damage to ourselves? That, remains to be seen and is why the potential for actual disaster remains very real under certain outcome scenarios of this election and is why I hope the election goes HRC's way and in a big way. I worry, though, that Trump is very much still a viable threat and the possibility of his becoming POTUS should not be underestimated.
and speaking of rigging elections, the republicans are at it again, disenfranchising 45,000 black voters. Let keep in mind that the voter registration project did nothing illegal, if they ask you to register and you tell them your name is mickey mouse and live at 1060 W Addison St. (wrigley field for those not familiar with the address), the voter registration is prohibited by law from doing anything other than submitting that forum you filled out. They can't alter it, they have to submit it, as is.
Patriot Majority USA President Craig Varoga released this statement on behalf of the Indiana Voter Registration Project:
“After all is said and done, when this partisan investigation finds no wrongdoing by the organization, Connie Lawson and the Indiana State Police will have prevented 45,000 African Americans from voting in this year’s elections. That is why today we reported their outrageous actions to the Department of Justice.”
Spoiler:
Update (October 7, 2016): A total of 56 counties have now been added to the investigation.
INDIANAPOLIS, Ind. -- Indiana State Police raided the Indiana Voter Registration Project as part of an expanded investigation into allegations of fraudulent voter application information in multiple Indiana counties.
The investigation originally involved Hendricks and Marion counties but has since expanded to include Allen, Delaware, Hamilton, Hancock, Johnson, Lake and Madison counties, state police said.
ISP says the investigation into the Indiana Voter Registration Project began after they were tipped off by the Hendricks County Clerk's office to inaccuracies in registration forms.
Detectives obtained a search warrant for the business offices of the Indiana Voter Registration Project, 2425 North Meridian Street, Suite A, in downtown Indianapolis.
The affidavit and search warrant are sealed for a period of 30 days from the time the warrant was granted, which was October 3, 2016.
State police say an investigation of this nature is complex, time consuming and is expected to continue for several more weeks or months.
"Some people are having the incorrect names, with incorrect addresses, or the correct names with incorrect addresses, or the correct names with incorrect date of birth and that will come to play, if you go to vote, they’re not going to let you vote," said ISP Sgt. Rich Myers.
Important points related to this ongoing investigation include:
In accordance with state law, all voter registration applications received by Indiana voter registration offices are processed according to established policies
A representative sample of voter registration applications received by county voter registration offices suspected of being fraudulent have been COPIED and provided to state police detectives. In all cases the ORIGINAL applications are maintained by the appropriate voter registration office
The expanded number of counties involved leads investigators to believe the total of potentially fraudulent records may be in the hundreds, thus creating a potential to disenfranchise many voters
The possible fraudulent or false information is a combination of made up names and made up addresses, real names with made up or incorrect addresses and false dates of births with real names as well as combinations of all these examples.
Victims of voter registration fraud may not realize their information was altered until they go to vote and realize they are unable to do so.
Voters are encouraged to check their information at indianavoters.com or through the Indiana Voters app. If you find something wrong, contact the Secretary of State’s Office at 1-866-IN-1-Vote (1-866-461-8683).
The voter registration deadline is Oct. 11, and Lawson believes the group will continue to operate right up to the close of registration. Be vigilant and report any suspicious activity to the Secretary of State’s Office.
Voters can register by going online or visiting their county clerk’s office. Hoosiers can also register at state offices like the Bureau of Motor Vehicles or Family and Social Services.
Patriot Majority USA President Craig Varoga released this statement on behalf of the Indiana Voter Registration Project:
“After all is said and done, when this partisan investigation finds no wrongdoing by the organization, Connie Lawson and the Indiana State Police will have prevented 45,000 African Americans from voting in this year’s elections. That is why today we reported their outrageous actions to the Department of Justice.”
Roughly 45,000 newly registered voters in Indiana — almost all of whom are black — may not be allowed to vote next month after state police targeted the state’s largest voter registration drive, forcing it to shut down its operation.
Police raided the Indiana Voter Registration Project (IVRP) offices on October 4, seizing documents and equipment and forcing the group to cease its get-out-the-vote efforts one week before the end of the state’s registration period. Bill Buck, a spokesperson for the liberal nonprofit Patriot Majority USA which runs the IVRP, told ThinkProgress that IVRP could have registered about 5,000 more voters in that additional week.
The IVRP is still unsure whether the 45,000 people it registered will be permitted to vote this year, or how the state will handle their applications while the police investigation is ongoing. Bill Bursten, chief public information officer for the Indiana State Police, told ThinkProgress that law enforcement is investigating whether IVRP is violating fraud and forgery laws.
“It will be up to each prosecutor to review the completed investigation and take whatever action they, as the local prosecuting authority, deem appropriate,” Bursten said. “Investigations of this nature are complicated and can take an extended period of time to complete.”
Secretary of State Connie Lawson (R)’s office declined to comment, and Buck said IVRP is still unclear what law it violated or why it’s being aggressively targeted by election officials and police.
“They saw that there was a very successful voter registration drive happening, and this was an attempt to shut it down.”
The IVRP launched in April of this year to improve voter participation in Indiana, particularly in African American neighborhoods in Indianapolis and the Chicago suburbs. In 2014, Indiana had the worst voter turnout rate in the country.
But Lawson, a Republican secretary of state, decided not to address her state’s abysmal participation levels (as a legislator, she cosponsored the state’s strict voter ID law). Instead, she went after voter registration groups. In September, she sent a letter to state elections officials warning them about groups like IVRP.
“Unfortunately, it has recently come to my attention that nefarious actors are operating here in Indiana,” she wrote. “A group by the name of the Indiana Voter Registration Project has forged voter registrations… If you receive one of these applications, please contact the Indiana State Police Special Investigations.”
Buck said that at the time, they had no evidence that IVRP was intentionally submitting forged or fraudulent applications. While Republicans claim otherwise, voter fraud is exceedingly rare.
Almost three weeks later, as IVRP was planning for one final week of its registration efforts, police entered the group’s offices with a search warrant and seized equipment and paperwork.
Indiana Gov. Mike Pence speaks during a campaign event, Friday, Oct. 21, 2016, in Exeter, N.H. CREDIT: AP Photo/Elise Amendola
Patriot Majority alleges the investigation and raid were political moves, and that Lawson worked closely with Gov. Mike Pence (R), who has pushed the “voter fraud” conspiracy on the campaign trail alongside Donald Trump.
“We’ve seen nothing but partisan activity from the secretary of state, and even from the police,” Buck said. “They saw that there was a very successful voter registration drive happening, and this was an attempt to shut it down.”
“It’s clear that the governor or the governor’s staff are very aware and involved in what’s happening,” he continued. “It fits into the Trump/Pence narrative that in certain neighborhoods, you have to watch how many times people show up to vote and how things happen.”
Political police
State elections officials have also enlisted the help of the Indiana State Police to push the “voter fraud” myth. Superintendent Doug Carter, who was chosen for the position by Pence, has been on television and was interviewed on right-wing radio Tuesday morning about the ongoing investigation.
On conservative talk radio, Carter said that “the notion that there is voter registration fraud is very real,” but denied that the investigation is “driven by politics.”
He accused the IVRP of forging signatures and making up people’s names. “To what purpose? We don’t know,” he told radio host Tony Katz. “That’s the purpose of the investigation. Were these acts of gross negligence? Were they acts of intent? That’s what we don’t know, and we don’t want to speculate.”
He added that police are going through thousands of registrations to make sure that nothing nefarious occurred.
“While I’ve been blamed by some of intentionally disenfranchising voters, nothing could be further from the truth,” he said.
On TV, Carter also called it “unconscionable” that anyone would imply that Pence ordered the raid, while also indicating his close relationship with the governor.
“I wish people could know Mike Pence like I do,” he said. “He has never ever tried to influence me with a decision that I had to make within the state police as we protect the citizens of this state.”
Buck called it “completely bizarre” that the police have become spokespeople for Indiana’s electoral system.
Aggressive tactics
Before raiding IVRP’s offices, police were already using aggressive tactics during their investigation of the group.
According to the New Republic, “police detectives arrived unannounced at the homes of get-out-the-vote activists to interrogate them about their voter registration work.”
Lydia Garrett, a 57-year-old voter registration worker, told the New Republic that police came to her home and repeatedly asked her if the group illegally sets quotas for canvassers.
“That’s what they kept on asking me: ‘How many did they tell you to get? How many did they tell you to get?’” she told a reporter. “And I said: ‘Sir, you can come back with two or three [registrations] and you’re still paid. I don’t understand what you’re saying.’”
Garrett claims that investigators kept questioning her, trying to get her to “say something negative.” She said police even asked her if she would be willing to submit to a polygraph test about her registration work.
Neither the police nor the secretary of state’s office would not comment on their tactics.
Local news also reported that police seized at least 250 voter registrations, but state officials only informed IVRP of about ten problematic applications, none of which show a fraudulent intent.
Under Indiana law, the project is required to submit all voter registration forms, regardless of how they are filled out or if there are imperfections, Buck said.
Voter registration drives across the country follow similar protocol, without being subject to investigations. A Huffington Post investigation reported that “it seems the extraordinary investigation is likely to find no more than potential technical violations of obscure regulations for third-party voter registration groups.”
Two days after the police raid, the IVRP asked the Voting Section of the U.S. Department of Justice’s Civil Rights Division to initiate an investigation.
“We’ve never had the state police involved in any voter registration project,” Buck said. “It’s pretty unprecedented for this to happen.”
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/27 14:26:20
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I don't want to be too cynical about the USA, because in its early years, the sense of civic duty, Republican ideals, and democratic principal were genuine.
I still hold that the 1st amendment is some of the greatest lines ever put to paper by mankind: Congress SHALL make no law...
No ifs, buts or maybe's there...
Nobody would have the guts or the principals to write or make a law defending free speech along those lines in this day and age...
There would be conditions attached.
That being said, as an outsider, and neutral observer, I do think that money has corrupted US politics to an unhealthy degree.
As much as I've been rather impassioned in my posts and debates on this board, at the end of the day there is no reason to panic or be cycnical. That said, I think Trump would be an unmitigated disaster for the USA, it's standing in the world and it's fundamental ideals and I'd prefer not to have to live through 4 years of just, horrible. But in reality, as I posted earlier in this thread, some times the baby needs to touch the hot stove to remember why it's a bad idea.
We're a young, cocky country that, in my opinion, has lost some critical perspective. The collapse of 2008/9 put the zap on the minds of a lot of people in this country...and around the world...and it's caused the rise of the whole "Out with the old, in with the new at any cost" fear-addled, rage mindset. When an individual like Trump can attract people with a slogan like "Make America Great Again", when it flies in the face of how good things actually are right now, then you have to view it from a macro lens that accepts that this is just part and parcel of how things will play out in the aftermath of said global exogenous shock. The retreat of people to fundamental values in the wake of catastrophe is just human nature. Unfortunately, it gives birth to fundamentalism and extreme partisanship. This must some times just run it's course and burn itself out. Hopefully, calmer heads will prevail before the carnage leaves scars that are too deep to heal.
Will we survive? Sure. Our core values will win out at the end of the day, this I believe. Will we recover before we do more damage to ourselves? That, remains to be seen and is why the potential for actual disaster remains very real under certain outcome scenarios of this election and is why I hope the election goes HRC's way and in a big way. I worry, though, that Trump is very much still a viable threat and the possibility of his becoming POTUS should not be underestimated.
The rise of Trump, or somebody like him, should be no surprise - it's been a long time coming. Western Democracies have been in 'crisis' since the end of the Cold War. They seem to have ran out of ideas.
In saying that, I wouldn't read to much into it. Political parties have collapsed before in the USA (Whigs and Federalists spring to mind) so perhaps the GOP's demise is a good thing?
People are comparing Trump to our BREXIT vote, but if you follow the UK politics thread, the reasons for BREXIT are many and complicated.
I personally voted to leave because I believe that the British people should have the final say on laws and decisions affecting Britain. It was nothing to do with immigrants or xenophobia or bashing the 'elites.' But that's for the other thread.
AS I can keep saying, if the USA can survive Nixon, it can survive Trump.
I think Clinton will win by a landslide, but a Trump victory wouldn't surprise me.
I went to bed at 11pm on June 23rd, and Britain was staying in the EU. When I got up at 3am to check the vote count, Leave had won the day, so who knows?
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
sirlynchmob wrote: and speaking of rigging elections, the republicans are at it again, disenfranchising 45,000 black voters. Let keep in mind that the voter registration project did nothing illegal, if they ask you to register and you tell them your name is mickey mouse and live at 1060 W Addison St. (wrigley field for those not familiar with the address), the voter registration is prohibited by law from doing anything other than submitting that forum you filled out. They can't alter it, they have to submit it, as is.
Patriot Majority USA President Craig Varoga released this statement on behalf of the Indiana Voter Registration Project:
“After all is said and done, when this partisan investigation finds no wrongdoing by the organization, Connie Lawson and the Indiana State Police will have prevented 45,000 African Americans from voting in this year’s elections. That is why today we reported their outrageous actions to the Department of Justice.”
[spoiler]Update (October 7, 2016): A total of 56 counties have now been added to the investigation.
INDIANAPOLIS, Ind. -- Indiana State Police raided the Indiana Voter Registration Project as part of an expanded investigation into allegations of fraudulent voter application information in multiple Indiana counties.
The investigation originally involved Hendricks and Marion counties but has since expanded to include Allen, Delaware, Hamilton, Hancock, Johnson, Lake and Madison counties, state police said.
ISP says the investigation into the Indiana Voter Registration Project began after they were tipped off by the Hendricks County Clerk's office to inaccuracies in registration forms.
Detectives obtained a search warrant for the business offices of the Indiana Voter Registration Project, 2425 North Meridian Street, Suite A, in downtown Indianapolis.
The affidavit and search warrant are sealed for a period of 30 days from the time the warrant was granted, which was October 3, 2016.
State police say an investigation of this nature is complex, time consuming and is expected to continue for several more weeks or months.
"Some people are having the incorrect names, with incorrect addresses, or the correct names with incorrect addresses, or the correct names with incorrect date of birth and that will come to play, if you go to vote, they’re not going to let you vote," said ISP Sgt. Rich Myers.
Important points related to this ongoing investigation include:
In accordance with state law, all voter registration applications received by Indiana voter registration offices are processed according to established policies
A representative sample of voter registration applications received by county voter registration offices suspected of being fraudulent have been COPIED and provided to state police detectives. In all cases the ORIGINAL applications are maintained by the appropriate voter registration office
The expanded number of counties involved leads investigators to believe the total of potentially fraudulent records may be in the hundreds, thus creating a potential to disenfranchise many voters
The possible fraudulent or false information is a combination of made up names and made up addresses, real names with made up or incorrect addresses and false dates of births with real names as well as combinations of all these examples.
Victims of voter registration fraud may not realize their information was altered until they go to vote and realize they are unable to do so.
Voters are encouraged to check their information at indianavoters.com or through the Indiana Voters app. If you find something wrong, contact the Secretary of State’s Office at 1-866-IN-1-Vote (1-866-461-8683).
The voter registration deadline is Oct. 11, and Lawson believes the group will continue to operate right up to the close of registration. Be vigilant and report any suspicious activity to the Secretary of State’s Office.
Voters can register by going online or visiting their county clerk’s office. Hoosiers can also register at state offices like the Bureau of Motor Vehicles or Family and Social Services.
Patriot Majority USA President Craig Varoga released this statement on behalf of the Indiana Voter Registration Project:
“After all is said and done, when this partisan investigation finds no wrongdoing by the organization, Connie Lawson and the Indiana State Police will have prevented 45,000 African Americans from voting in this year’s elections. That is why today we reported their outrageous actions to the Department of Justice.”
Roughly 45,000 newly registered voters in Indiana — almost all of whom are black — may not be allowed to vote next month after state police targeted the state’s largest voter registration drive, forcing it to shut down its operation.
Police raided the Indiana Voter Registration Project (IVRP) offices on October 4, seizing documents and equipment and forcing the group to cease its get-out-the-vote efforts one week before the end of the state’s registration period. Bill Buck, a spokesperson for the liberal nonprofit Patriot Majority USA which runs the IVRP, told ThinkProgress that IVRP could have registered about 5,000 more voters in that additional week.
The IVRP is still unsure whether the 45,000 people it registered will be permitted to vote this year, or how the state will handle their applications while the police investigation is ongoing. Bill Bursten, chief public information officer for the Indiana State Police, told ThinkProgress that law enforcement is investigating whether IVRP is violating fraud and forgery laws.
“It will be up to each prosecutor to review the completed investigation and take whatever action they, as the local prosecuting authority, deem appropriate,” Bursten said. “Investigations of this nature are complicated and can take an extended period of time to complete.”
Secretary of State Connie Lawson (R)’s office declined to comment, and Buck said IVRP is still unclear what law it violated or why it’s being aggressively targeted by election officials and police.
“They saw that there was a very successful voter registration drive happening, and this was an attempt to shut it down.”
The IVRP launched in April of this year to improve voter participation in Indiana, particularly in African American neighborhoods in Indianapolis and the Chicago suburbs. In 2014, Indiana had the worst voter turnout rate in the country.
But Lawson, a Republican secretary of state, decided not to address her state’s abysmal participation levels (as a legislator, she cosponsored the state’s strict voter ID law). Instead, she went after voter registration groups. In September, she sent a letter to state elections officials warning them about groups like IVRP.
“Unfortunately, it has recently come to my attention that nefarious actors are operating here in Indiana,” she wrote. “A group by the name of the Indiana Voter Registration Project has forged voter registrations… If you receive one of these applications, please contact the Indiana State Police Special Investigations.”
Buck said that at the time, they had no evidence that IVRP was intentionally submitting forged or fraudulent applications. While Republicans claim otherwise, voter fraud is exceedingly rare.
Almost three weeks later, as IVRP was planning for one final week of its registration efforts, police entered the group’s offices with a search warrant and seized equipment and paperwork.
Indiana Gov. Mike Pence speaks during a campaign event, Friday, Oct. 21, 2016, in Exeter, N.H. CREDIT: AP Photo/Elise Amendola
Patriot Majority alleges the investigation and raid were political moves, and that Lawson worked closely with Gov. Mike Pence (R), who has pushed the “voter fraud” conspiracy on the campaign trail alongside Donald Trump.
“We’ve seen nothing but partisan activity from the secretary of state, and even from the police,” Buck said. “They saw that there was a very successful voter registration drive happening, and this was an attempt to shut it down.”
“It’s clear that the governor or the governor’s staff are very aware and involved in what’s happening,” he continued. “It fits into the Trump/Pence narrative that in certain neighborhoods, you have to watch how many times people show up to vote and how things happen.”
Political police
State elections officials have also enlisted the help of the Indiana State Police to push the “voter fraud” myth. Superintendent Doug Carter, who was chosen for the position by Pence, has been on television and was interviewed on right-wing radio Tuesday morning about the ongoing investigation.
On conservative talk radio, Carter said that “the notion that there is voter registration fraud is very real,” but denied that the investigation is “driven by politics.”
He accused the IVRP of forging signatures and making up people’s names. “To what purpose? We don’t know,” he told radio host Tony Katz. “That’s the purpose of the investigation. Were these acts of gross negligence? Were they acts of intent? That’s what we don’t know, and we don’t want to speculate.”
He added that police are going through thousands of registrations to make sure that nothing nefarious occurred.
“While I’ve been blamed by some of intentionally disenfranchising voters, nothing could be further from the truth,” he said.
On TV, Carter also called it “unconscionable” that anyone would imply that Pence ordered the raid, while also indicating his close relationship with the governor.
“I wish people could know Mike Pence like I do,” he said. “He has never ever tried to influence me with a decision that I had to make within the state police as we protect the citizens of this state.”
Buck called it “completely bizarre” that the police have become spokespeople for Indiana’s electoral system.
Aggressive tactics
Before raiding IVRP’s offices, police were already using aggressive tactics during their investigation of the group.
According to the New Republic, “police detectives arrived unannounced at the homes of get-out-the-vote activists to interrogate them about their voter registration work.”
Lydia Garrett, a 57-year-old voter registration worker, told the New Republic that police came to her home and repeatedly asked her if the group illegally sets quotas for canvassers.
“That’s what they kept on asking me: ‘How many did they tell you to get? How many did they tell you to get?’” she told a reporter. “And I said: ‘Sir, you can come back with two or three [registrations] and you’re still paid. I don’t understand what you’re saying.’”
Garrett claims that investigators kept questioning her, trying to get her to “say something negative.” She said police even asked her if she would be willing to submit to a polygraph test about her registration work.
Neither the police nor the secretary of state’s office would not comment on their tactics.
Local news also reported that police seized at least 250 voter registrations, but state officials only informed IVRP of about ten problematic applications, none of which show a fraudulent intent.
Under Indiana law, the project is required to submit all voter registration forms, regardless of how they are filled out or if there are imperfections, Buck said.
Voter registration drives across the country follow similar protocol, without being subject to investigations. A Huffington Post investigation reported that “it seems the extraordinary investigation is likely to find no more than potential technical violations of obscure regulations for third-party voter registration groups.”
Two days after the police raid, the IVRP asked the Voting Section of the U.S. Department of Justice’s Civil Rights Division to initiate an investigation.
“We’ve never had the state police involved in any voter registration project,” Buck said. “It’s pretty unprecedented for this to happen.”
[/spoiler]
Sad thing is, I've a number of nominally Republican friends, many of whom are former co-workers and people I generally respect that if they say this would simply retort with, "yeah? Well the Dems did X... and that's much worse!" (the most recent being posting sketchy articles about how "dead people" are voting democrat... or the small town in Virginia where someone registered under the name of a person who'd been dead for 4 years, despite being a relatively common sounding name)... Of course, as topics go, both the topic of dead people's votes and these sorts of registration issues have been talked to death in various US Politics threads, wherein people have shown how ridiculously small numbers those instances are.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I don't want to be too cynical about the USA, because in its early years, the sense of civic duty, Republican ideals, and democratic principal were genuine.
I still hold that the 1st amendment is some of the greatest lines ever put to paper by mankind: Congress SHALL make no law...
No ifs, buts or maybe's there...
Nobody would have the guts or the principals to write or make a law defending free speech along those lines in this day and age...
There would be conditions attached.
That being said, as an outsider, and neutral observer, I do think that money has corrupted US politics to an unhealthy degree.
As much as I've been rather impassioned in my posts and debates on this board, at the end of the day there is no reason to panic or be cycnical. That said, I think Trump would be an unmitigated disaster for the USA, it's standing in the world and it's fundamental ideals and I'd prefer not to have to live through 4 years of just, horrible. But in reality, as I posted earlier in this thread, some times the baby needs to touch the hot stove to remember why it's a bad idea.
We're a young, cocky country that, in my opinion, has lost some critical perspective. The collapse of 2008/9 put the zap on the minds of a lot of people in this country...and around the world...and it's caused the rise of the whole "Out with the old, in with the new at any cost" fear-addled, rage mindset. When an individual like Trump can attract people with a slogan like "Make America Great Again", when it flies in the face of how good things actually are right now, then you have to view it from a macro lens that accepts that this is just part and parcel of how things will play out in the aftermath of said global exogenous shock. The retreat of people to fundamental values in the wake of catastrophe is just human nature. Unfortunately, it gives birth to fundamentalism and extreme partisanship. This must some times just run it's course and burn itself out. Hopefully, calmer heads will prevail before the carnage leaves scars that are too deep to heal.
Will we survive? Sure. Our core values will win out at the end of the day, this I believe. Will we recover before we do more damage to ourselves? That, remains to be seen and is why the potential for actual disaster remains very real under certain outcome scenarios of this election and is why I hope the election goes HRC's way and in a big way. I worry, though, that Trump is very much still a viable threat and the possibility of his becoming POTUS should not be underestimated.
The rise of Trump, or somebody like him, should be no surprise - it's been a long time coming. Western Democracies have been in 'crisis' since the end of the Cold War. They seem to have ran out of ideas.
In saying that, I wouldn't read to much into it. Political parties have collapsed before in the USA (Whigs and Federalists spring to mind) so perhaps the GOP's demise is a good thing?
People are comparing Trump to our BREXIT vote, but if you follow the UK politics thread, the reasons for BREXIT are many and complicated.
I personally voted to leave because I believe that the British people should have the final say on laws and decisions affecting Britain. It was nothing to do with immigrants or xenophobia or bashing the 'elites.' But that's for the other thread.
AS I can keep saying, if the USA can survive Nixon, it can survive Trump.
I think Clinton will win by a landslide, but a Trump victory wouldn't surprise me.
I went to bed at 11pm on June 23rd, and Britain was staying in the EU. When I got up at 3am to check the vote count, Leave had won the day, so who knows?
It's not the rise of Trump, but the legitimacy that is distinguishable. There's always some "rise" here and there in our politics, but in the end, without a shock to derail the train there was never a "follow through", if you will, on the fringe popularity to this degree.
And actually, I think the BREXIT comparison is spot on. At it's core the BREXIT/Trump phenomenon is the same bird and goes to my comment on people historically retreating to their fundamental base for safety and comfort when hit with a shock. In this case the shock was 2008/9 and a desire for pulling back a perceived loss of control and self-governance. In the Trump camp, it's a desire to "Make America Great Again" which draws upon some idyllic, fantasy of America with great paying Union Jobs, a nice house and a picket fence from some 1950's 'Father Knows Best' episode. All the xenophobia, racism, etc. are just the ugly manifestations of the more deplorable elements in those groups.
Here's a wonderful piece on the inner workings of the a Trump campaigns online operations - very interesting if you have the time. Basically, Trump's team created "Project Alamo" early on, which is basically their list of contact information for likely voters, and soon to be their list of likely customers by the sound of it. Feeding names from donors and activists, bulked up with info from the RNC and other republican operations, Trump now has a contact list worth $50-100 million on it's own, and a built in customer base for any new start-up he wants to make.
It seems there was one thing he absolutely told the truth about - he's going to make money off his run for president.
sirlynchmob wrote: and speaking of rigging elections, the republicans are at it again, disenfranchising 45,000 black voters. Let keep in mind that the voter registration project did nothing illegal, if they ask you to register and you tell them your name is mickey mouse and live at 1060 W Addison St. (wrigley field for those not familiar with the address), the voter registration is prohibited by law from doing anything other than submitting that forum you filled out. They can't alter it, they have to submit it, as is.
Patriot Majority USA President Craig Varoga released this statement on behalf of the Indiana Voter Registration Project:
“After all is said and done, when this partisan investigation finds no wrongdoing by the organization, Connie Lawson and the Indiana State Police will have prevented 45,000 African Americans from voting in this year’s elections. That is why today we reported their outrageous actions to the Department of Justice.”
Spoiler:
Update (October 7, 2016): A total of 56 counties have now been added to the investigation.
INDIANAPOLIS, Ind. -- Indiana State Police raided the Indiana Voter Registration Project as part of an expanded investigation into allegations of fraudulent voter application information in multiple Indiana counties.
The investigation originally involved Hendricks and Marion counties but has since expanded to include Allen, Delaware, Hamilton, Hancock, Johnson, Lake and Madison counties, state police said.
ISP says the investigation into the Indiana Voter Registration Project began after they were tipped off by the Hendricks County Clerk's office to inaccuracies in registration forms.
Detectives obtained a search warrant for the business offices of the Indiana Voter Registration Project, 2425 North Meridian Street, Suite A, in downtown Indianapolis.
The affidavit and search warrant are sealed for a period of 30 days from the time the warrant was granted, which was October 3, 2016.
State police say an investigation of this nature is complex, time consuming and is expected to continue for several more weeks or months.
"Some people are having the incorrect names, with incorrect addresses, or the correct names with incorrect addresses, or the correct names with incorrect date of birth and that will come to play, if you go to vote, they’re not going to let you vote," said ISP Sgt. Rich Myers.
Important points related to this ongoing investigation include:
In accordance with state law, all voter registration applications received by Indiana voter registration offices are processed according to established policies
A representative sample of voter registration applications received by county voter registration offices suspected of being fraudulent have been COPIED and provided to state police detectives. In all cases the ORIGINAL applications are maintained by the appropriate voter registration office
The expanded number of counties involved leads investigators to believe the total of potentially fraudulent records may be in the hundreds, thus creating a potential to disenfranchise many voters
The possible fraudulent or false information is a combination of made up names and made up addresses, real names with made up or incorrect addresses and false dates of births with real names as well as combinations of all these examples.
Victims of voter registration fraud may not realize their information was altered until they go to vote and realize they are unable to do so.
Voters are encouraged to check their information at indianavoters.com or through the Indiana Voters app. If you find something wrong, contact the Secretary of State’s Office at 1-866-IN-1-Vote (1-866-461-8683).
The voter registration deadline is Oct. 11, and Lawson believes the group will continue to operate right up to the close of registration. Be vigilant and report any suspicious activity to the Secretary of State’s Office.
Voters can register by going online or visiting their county clerk’s office. Hoosiers can also register at state offices like the Bureau of Motor Vehicles or Family and Social Services.
Patriot Majority USA President Craig Varoga released this statement on behalf of the Indiana Voter Registration Project:
“After all is said and done, when this partisan investigation finds no wrongdoing by the organization, Connie Lawson and the Indiana State Police will have prevented 45,000 African Americans from voting in this year’s elections. That is why today we reported their outrageous actions to the Department of Justice.”
Roughly 45,000 newly registered voters in Indiana — almost all of whom are black — may not be allowed to vote next month after state police targeted the state’s largest voter registration drive, forcing it to shut down its operation.
Police raided the Indiana Voter Registration Project (IVRP) offices on October 4, seizing documents and equipment and forcing the group to cease its get-out-the-vote efforts one week before the end of the state’s registration period. Bill Buck, a spokesperson for the liberal nonprofit Patriot Majority USA which runs the IVRP, told ThinkProgress that IVRP could have registered about 5,000 more voters in that additional week.
The IVRP is still unsure whether the 45,000 people it registered will be permitted to vote this year, or how the state will handle their applications while the police investigation is ongoing. Bill Bursten, chief public information officer for the Indiana State Police, told ThinkProgress that law enforcement is investigating whether IVRP is violating fraud and forgery laws.
“It will be up to each prosecutor to review the completed investigation and take whatever action they, as the local prosecuting authority, deem appropriate,” Bursten said. “Investigations of this nature are complicated and can take an extended period of time to complete.”
Secretary of State Connie Lawson (R)’s office declined to comment, and Buck said IVRP is still unclear what law it violated or why it’s being aggressively targeted by election officials and police.
“They saw that there was a very successful voter registration drive happening, and this was an attempt to shut it down.”
The IVRP launched in April of this year to improve voter participation in Indiana, particularly in African American neighborhoods in Indianapolis and the Chicago suburbs. In 2014, Indiana had the worst voter turnout rate in the country.
But Lawson, a Republican secretary of state, decided not to address her state’s abysmal participation levels (as a legislator, she cosponsored the state’s strict voter ID law). Instead, she went after voter registration groups. In September, she sent a letter to state elections officials warning them about groups like IVRP.
“Unfortunately, it has recently come to my attention that nefarious actors are operating here in Indiana,” she wrote. “A group by the name of the Indiana Voter Registration Project has forged voter registrations… If you receive one of these applications, please contact the Indiana State Police Special Investigations.”
Buck said that at the time, they had no evidence that IVRP was intentionally submitting forged or fraudulent applications. While Republicans claim otherwise, voter fraud is exceedingly rare.
Almost three weeks later, as IVRP was planning for one final week of its registration efforts, police entered the group’s offices with a search warrant and seized equipment and paperwork.
Indiana Gov. Mike Pence speaks during a campaign event, Friday, Oct. 21, 2016, in Exeter, N.H. CREDIT: AP Photo/Elise Amendola
Patriot Majority alleges the investigation and raid were political moves, and that Lawson worked closely with Gov. Mike Pence (R), who has pushed the “voter fraud” conspiracy on the campaign trail alongside Donald Trump.
“We’ve seen nothing but partisan activity from the secretary of state, and even from the police,” Buck said. “They saw that there was a very successful voter registration drive happening, and this was an attempt to shut it down.”
“It’s clear that the governor or the governor’s staff are very aware and involved in what’s happening,” he continued. “It fits into the Trump/Pence narrative that in certain neighborhoods, you have to watch how many times people show up to vote and how things happen.”
Political police
State elections officials have also enlisted the help of the Indiana State Police to push the “voter fraud” myth. Superintendent Doug Carter, who was chosen for the position by Pence, has been on television and was interviewed on right-wing radio Tuesday morning about the ongoing investigation.
On conservative talk radio, Carter said that “the notion that there is voter registration fraud is very real,” but denied that the investigation is “driven by politics.”
He accused the IVRP of forging signatures and making up people’s names. “To what purpose? We don’t know,” he told radio host Tony Katz. “That’s the purpose of the investigation. Were these acts of gross negligence? Were they acts of intent? That’s what we don’t know, and we don’t want to speculate.”
He added that police are going through thousands of registrations to make sure that nothing nefarious occurred.
“While I’ve been blamed by some of intentionally disenfranchising voters, nothing could be further from the truth,” he said.
On TV, Carter also called it “unconscionable” that anyone would imply that Pence ordered the raid, while also indicating his close relationship with the governor.
“I wish people could know Mike Pence like I do,” he said. “He has never ever tried to influence me with a decision that I had to make within the state police as we protect the citizens of this state.”
Buck called it “completely bizarre” that the police have become spokespeople for Indiana’s electoral system.
Aggressive tactics
Before raiding IVRP’s offices, police were already using aggressive tactics during their investigation of the group.
According to the New Republic, “police detectives arrived unannounced at the homes of get-out-the-vote activists to interrogate them about their voter registration work.”
Lydia Garrett, a 57-year-old voter registration worker, told the New Republic that police came to her home and repeatedly asked her if the group illegally sets quotas for canvassers.
“That’s what they kept on asking me: ‘How many did they tell you to get? How many did they tell you to get?’” she told a reporter. “And I said: ‘Sir, you can come back with two or three [registrations] and you’re still paid. I don’t understand what you’re saying.’”
Garrett claims that investigators kept questioning her, trying to get her to “say something negative.” She said police even asked her if she would be willing to submit to a polygraph test about her registration work.
Neither the police nor the secretary of state’s office would not comment on their tactics.
Local news also reported that police seized at least 250 voter registrations, but state officials only informed IVRP of about ten problematic applications, none of which show a fraudulent intent.
Under Indiana law, the project is required to submit all voter registration forms, regardless of how they are filled out or if there are imperfections, Buck said.
Voter registration drives across the country follow similar protocol, without being subject to investigations. A Huffington Post investigation reported that “it seems the extraordinary investigation is likely to find no more than potential technical violations of obscure regulations for third-party voter registration groups.”
Two days after the police raid, the IVRP asked the Voting Section of the U.S. Department of Justice’s Civil Rights Division to initiate an investigation.
“We’ve never had the state police involved in any voter registration project,” Buck said. “It’s pretty unprecedented for this to happen.”
See, *that* is how you rig an election. In person voter fraud? Hundreds of people, hundreds of hours and you end up with no where near enough votes to swing an election, while taking massive risks, because no conspiracy can be secret with the numbers you need for that sort of fraud. No, you create a bogus reason to stop voter registration of a particular minority, and you potentially net 50,000 votes, or at least remove them from your opponents tally, and even if it's shown absolutely that you targeted minorities to prevent them to vote, you'll never spend a day in jail as long as you didn't put it down in writing and stick to your paper thin excuse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/27 15:53:07
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I don't want to be too cynical about the USA, because in its early years, the sense of civic duty, Republican ideals, and democratic principal were genuine.
I still hold that the 1st amendment is some of the greatest lines ever put to paper by mankind: Congress SHALL make no law...
No ifs, buts or maybe's there...
Nobody would have the guts or the principals to write or make a law defending free speech along those lines in this day and age...
There would be conditions attached.
That being said, as an outsider, and neutral observer, I do think that money has corrupted US politics to an unhealthy degree.
I'm pretty cynical and would argue the US from the start never had any intentions of being an actual democracy. In the beginning it was penned by oligarchs for oligarchs, the Bill of Rights is just more or less by oligarchs for oligarchs too. Granted everybody recognizes the legality of it applying to all people in modern context now but I'm sure there was plenty of soft censorship then.
These days I would say its pretty damn accurate to say the US isn't a democracy but a republic and that used to be a pet peeve of mine also. However, it is accurate and I forced myself to admit it. The US is a choose your own adventure oligarchy at the best of times. Do I have a representative in government? No not really, the two parties do not represent me and they will block any attempt for a new party to do so. If I vote one party and another wins, can expect to be represented by the other guy? No, I can expect for the duration of the elected term, the other guy will not only not represent me but go out of their way to ensure that they do not.
It is pretty fair to say that the US is not and never has been very democratic. It is however a pretty solid republic.
ulgurstasta wrote: You dont also avoid war by brazen aggression and saber rattling.
Lots of people believe, genuinely believe, that Russia would fold within days of war being declared.
Better hurry down and sign up then, because it will all be over by Christmas!
I firmly believe that the MAD principle still means major powers are still confined to wars by proxy.
That does mean (even more) bad news for Syria, however.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: In saying that, I wouldn't read to much into it. Political parties have collapsed before in the USA (Whigs and Federalists spring to mind) so perhaps the GOP's demise is a good thing?
When this election is said and done, the GOP will still have the House of Representatives, more than half the governorships, and countless local and state offices. I think they're still a viable party overall.
I firmly believe that the MAD principle still means major powers are still confined to wars by proxy.
It would be really fething dumb to start a war with Russia but then it was really fething dumb for all the great powers to get into a land war in Europe, so...
I firmly believe that the MAD principle still means major powers are still confined to wars by proxy.
It would be really fething dumb to start a war with Russia but then it was really fething dumb for all the great powers to get into a land war in Europe, so...
True, but they didn't really have an idea of the carnage that total war industry could wreak.
We know what will happen if we start lobbing nukes at each other. Fallout is a fun game, but an unthinkably terrible reality.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
I firmly believe that the MAD principle still means major powers are still confined to wars by proxy.
It would be really fething dumb to start a war with Russia but then it was really fething dumb for all the great powers to get into a land war in Europe, so...
Where does this whole idea that there's going to be some imminent war started with Russia come from? Saber rattling is just par for the course between countries. Particularly when it's two of the big kids on the block. Both nations understand the stakes and both nations understand there is no winner. Besides, war is bad for business.
Furthermore, over what, exactly, will we decide that "Yeah, let's end it all over _____!" Syria? Please. At the end of the day, on behalf of most Americans, we're sick and tired of the constant crap on perpetual loop in the Middle East. You want it Russia? Yours! Crimea? Nope. Want a port for your fleet? Go for it. We've got plenty.
I saw the real Cold War. Grew up having nuclear fallout drills at my school as a kid when it was a real threat. I look around and just don't see any similiarity with today. Sure, it's not the warm and fuzzy relationship we've seen since the wall came down, but that wasn't going to last and I don't think the tensions we see now will last either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/27 18:05:46
AS I can keep saying, if the USA can survive Nixon, it can survive Trump.
...
Yes, well it would a metric feth ton easier to survive Trump by kicking him and the GOP very hard in the nuts for the next four years than by electing him and his party and hoping that a system of checks and balances will prevent them gaking all over everything.
I firmly believe that the MAD principle still means major powers are still confined to wars by proxy.
It would be really fething dumb to start a war with Russia but then it was really fething dumb for all the great powers to get into a land war in Europe, so...
Where does this whole idea that there's going to be some imminent war started with Russia come from? Saber rattling is just par for the course between countries. Particularly when it's two of the big kids on the block. Both nations understand the stakes and both nations understand there is no winner. Besides, war is bad for business.
Furthermore, over what, exactly, will we decide that "Yeah, let's end it all over _____!" Syria? Please. At the end of the day, on behalf of most Americans, we're sick and tired of the constant crap on perpetual loop in the Middle East. You want it Russia? Yours! Crimea? Nope. Want a port for your fleet? Go for it. We've got plenty.
I saw the real Cold War. Grew up having nuclear fallout drills at my school as a kid when it was a real threat. I look around and just don't see any similiarity with today. Sure, it's not the warm and fuzzy relationship we've seen since the wall came down, but that wasn't going to last and I don't think the tensions we see now will last either.
It comes from a small number of forum members who think correctly that Trump is much friendlier to the Russians than Clinton, and therefore are claiming that Clinton is going to start WW3 even though it is Trump who says there should be more nuclear weapons around the world and the USA should use them first, and he starts Twitter wars after midnight with anyone he dislikes if he has had a bad day.
Go figure, as the Americans would say.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/27 18:17:35
I firmly believe that the MAD principle still means major powers are still confined to wars by proxy.
It would be really fething dumb to start a war with Russia but then it was really fething dumb for all the great powers to get into a land war in Europe, so...
Where does this whole idea that there's going to be some imminent war started with Russia come from? Saber rattling is just par for the course between countries. Particularly when it's two of the big kids on the block. Both nations understand the stakes and both nations understand there is no winner. Besides, war is bad for business.
Furthermore, over what, exactly, will we decide that "Yeah, let's end it all over _____!" Syria? Please. At the end of the day, on behalf of most Americans, we're sick and tired of the constant crap on perpetual loop in the Middle East. You want it Russia? Yours! Crimea? Nope. Want a port for your fleet? Go for it. We've got plenty.
I saw the real Cold War. Grew up having nuclear fallout drills at my school as a kid when it was a real threat. I look around and just don't see any similiarity with today. Sure, it's not the warm and fuzzy relationship we've seen since the wall came down, but that wasn't going to last and I don't think the tensions we see now will last either.
The problem is the inadvertent/accidental incident that lights the fire of war. When was the last time you had Russian (or Soviet) and US/NATO aircraft actually running combat missions in the same AO, each supporting different sides? Adding in top-of-the-line IADS to the theater does not help. Nor does third party combat sorties (like Turkey) against folks supported by the Russians or the US. Everyone is flying aircraft with the mission to protect their ground strike aircraft from interference by 'the other side'. Overflights of each other's claimed areas (and other countries) is occurring accidentally and by design almost daily.
Eventually someone feths up... The consequences may not be localized in that region.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
I firmly believe that the MAD principle still means major powers are still confined to wars by proxy.
It would be really fething dumb to start a war with Russia but then it was really fething dumb for all the great powers to get into a land war in Europe, so...
Where does this whole idea that there's going to be some imminent war started with Russia come from? Saber rattling is just par for the course between countries. Particularly when it's two of the big kids on the block. Both nations understand the stakes and both nations understand there is no winner. Besides, war is bad for business.
Furthermore, over what, exactly, will we decide that "Yeah, let's end it all over _____!" Syria? Please. At the end of the day, on behalf of most Americans, we're sick and tired of the constant crap on perpetual loop in the Middle East. You want it Russia? Yours! Crimea? Nope. Want a port for your fleet? Go for it. We've got plenty.
I saw the real Cold War. Grew up having nuclear fallout drills at my school as a kid when it was a real threat. I look around and just don't see any similiarity with today. Sure, it's not the warm and fuzzy relationship we've seen since the wall came down, but that wasn't going to last and I don't think the tensions we see now will last either.
The problem is the inadvertent/accidental incident that lights the fire of war. When was the last time you had Russian (or Soviet) and US/NATO aircraft actually running combat missions in the same AO, each supporting different sides? Adding in top-of-the-line IADS to the theater does not help. Nor does third party combat sorties (like Turkey) against folks supported by the Russians or the US. Everyone is flying aircraft with the mission to protect their ground strike aircraft from interference by 'the other side'. Overflights of each other's claimed areas (and other countries) is occurring accidentally and by design almost daily.
Eventually someone feths up... The consequences may not be localized in that region.
Granted, it's a messy situation over Syria, but let's look at a worse case scenario. Russia SAM shoots down US jet, or we shoot down a Mig. No, we're not going to WW3 over that. The Turks, long-standing NATO member, brought down a Sukhoi and we're still here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/27 18:30:57
LordofHats wrote: Probably not, but those are the kinds of incidents that become links in a chain of incidents that increase tensions and make war more likely.
True, that could be a course of events, or, it could get everybody to take a step back and reassess the stakes.
BigWaaagh wrote: Granted, it's a messy situation over Syria, but let's look at a worse case scenario. Russia SAM shoots down US jet, or we shoot down a Mig. No, we're not going to WW3 over that. The Turks, long-standing NATO member, brought down a Sukhoi and we're still here.
You know wars have had habit of getting started over trivial things before. One of the deadliest wars as it started over assasination of one of relatively not so important guy which then dragged into conflict even countries that had no real interest on said person.
Wars don't start just on logical reason or after long consideration.
BigWaaagh wrote: Granted, it's a messy situation over Syria, but let's look at a worse case scenario. Russia SAM shoots down US jet, or we shoot down a Mig. No, we're not going to WW3 over that. The Turks, long-standing NATO member, brought down a Sukhoi and we're still here.
You know wars have had habit of getting started over trivial things before. One of the deadliest wars as it started over assasination of one of relatively not so important guy which then dragged into conflict even countries that had no real interest on said person.
Wars don't start just on logical reason or after long consideration.
Then I guess you should grab your shovel and start digging a bunker.
I mean, I guess there's no alternative considering that any trivial thing could cause a thermonuclear holocaust. My god, trivial things happen every day! Lots of them!
BigWaaagh wrote: Granted, it's a messy situation over Syria, but let's look at a worse case scenario. Russia SAM shoots down US jet, or we shoot down a Mig. No, we're not going to WW3 over that. The Turks, long-standing NATO member, brought down a Sukhoi and we're still here.
You know wars have had habit of getting started over trivial things before. One of the deadliest wars as it started over assasination of one of relatively not so important guy which then dragged into conflict even countries that had no real interest on said person.
Wars don't start just on logical reason or after long consideration.
We may be straying of course here, but that war escalated to such a huge scale because of outdated notions of "honour" and "duty". We have no such foolishness today. The US and Russia (or China) will no get into a real, face to face shooting match because the stakes (all life on earth) are so very high. Even during the Cold War, when mainstream rhetoric on both sides was "they want to kill us and our way of life", and there was many opportunities to "do it", the big red button was not pressed.
The worst we will see is another major proxy war like Vietnam. (Which again, is terrible for the people of Syria.)
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
Where does this whole idea that there's going to be some imminent war started with Russia come from? Saber rattling is just par for the course between countries.
It's less imminent and more the obvious conclusion of the endless chain of escalation that the pro-stupid gak caucus is gleefully perpetuating.
Furthermore, over what, exactly, will we decide that "Yeah, let's end it all over _____!" Syria? Please. At the end of the day, on behalf of most Americans, we're sick and tired of the constant crap on perpetual loop in the Middle East. You want it Russia? Yours! Crimea? Nope. Want a port for your fleet? Go for it. We've got plenty.
It's going to be something silly that nobody thought anyone could seriously launch wars over. That's how ceaselessly growing tensions between great powers go. What 90% of US citizens want isn't going to matter because they have no influence and you don't need very many people to start launching missiles anyway.