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Spinner wrote: You know, come to think of it, Donald got his daily briefings to consist solely of articles that said nice things about him...he shunned interviews where he didn't get softballed...he gets cranky and throws Twitter-tantrums if someone says something he didn't like...
Hey, uh, if you voted Republican? You just elected the Safe Space Candidate.
And the overwhelming majority of voters agree he's unfit for the office. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make if it's not, "Ideological bubbles turn out nasty pieces of work." But it doesn't appear to be that, since you seem to be defending the liberal affection for ideological bubbles. So, I dunno.
Manchu wrote: I think it is ridiculous to assert that premise, which can only be meaningful in the abstract, necessarily has anything to do with why people cast a vote for Trump.
It doesn't matter what their reasons for voting for Trump were. Even if you voted for Trump because you thought his economic plan was better (lol) your vote was still a statement that it's ok to accept racism if that's the price you have to pay to get what you want. Or it's ok that the vice president thinks that abusing gay people until they pretend to be straight (or commit suicide trying) as long as Clinton's email server is properly punished. You don't get to pick out some of Trump's policies and discard the stuff you don't like, if you vote for Trump you're voting for his racism along with everything else.
That's exactly what people do. All the people I know who voted for Trump did so because they're primarily one issue voters. People held their nose and voted Trump for the sake of 2A rights or to get the right justices nominated to SCotUS, or to fix the economy or whatever. That's what most of the people I know do on election day, hold their nose and vote for the lesser of 2 evils. When you choose to vote for the lesser of 2 evils you're acknowledging that you're voting for evil it's just a degree of evil that you can rationalize supporting based on the primacy you place on a specific issue.
And that's really the truth, and I am more than willing to acknowledge that as someone on the liberal spectrum that wanted Hillary to win.
Plenty of people are anti-racism, anti-abortion, anti-gun control, anti-trade compacts, anti-etc. During the 2012 election I saw a statement by the Catholic Church about people voting for liberals, and it was basically "It's okay to vote for candidate who are pro-choice, as long as the reason you are voting for them isn't that they are pro-choice" . I look at people who voted for Trump the same way, It's okay to have voted for Trump as long as you didn't vote for him because of racism/sexism/homophobia".
I can sympathize with that...
I... just couldn't do it this year.
I won't lie, as a father of biracial children I am extremely worried that having Trump win has moved racism back towards being an acceptable thing and I am worried that it has legitimized the alt-right and empowered groups like the KKK who were able to watch their guy win.
Racism will never by acceptable... and it's incumbent on all of us to remain vigilant.
But I don't feel like I can really blame that on the vast majority of people who voted for Trump. I think the blame for that falls almost exclusively on Trump, who didn't do very much of anything to denounce these groups and their view point and instead pandered to them, as well as his campaign at large. I do think a lot of racists voted for Trump, but I don't think that voting for Trump automatically makes you a racist.
...eh... I think it's more certain elements of the Trump campaign than Trump personally that is to blame. (well, he does shoulder the responsibility as it's his campaign)
The nebulous factions of these racists, spurred on by the likes of reddit and the likes existed... and it was a shame more wasn't done to discourage that.
But, to be fair on the subject of the KKK and David Duke, he did denounce them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/11 16:44:02
Seaward wrote: Only about 30% of people who voted thought Donald Trump was qualified to be president. A huge portion of people who voted for Donald Trump did not think he was qualified to do the job.
They didn't go all in on him because they believed his lies about restoring American manufacturing. They bought into him because the federal government has ignored them for decades and they have been left behind by the prosperity created by tech jobs. Things for the "coastal elite" have gotten better, things for them have gotten worse. Government doesn't work for them.
This is them chucking a bomb into the system, not buying the snake oil.
Basically reason #5, as Michael Moore, of all people, predicted.
Funny that you reference Moore, who can't get his facts straight because of his own political leanings. See item #1 and the "failure" of "trickle down econonomics" or "Reagonomics", and dare to compare.
So basically it was working until Bush Sr. came round. Market unease at being unsure of policies? Bush's own opposition to the policies? A little bit of everything. The problem with the world today is that people can't simply let something that works go without trying to "fix" it. They should take a cue from the 1911A1, and just leave certain designs alone.
Facts are beliefs, yours included.
I posted that article because of his main points -- which were fairly accurate as it turned out -- not because of any particular partisan statement underneath.
So you can put your partisan saber away there, chief.
Hyperpartisans on both sides of the aisle strive to insulate themselves from ideas that might challenge their thinking, which helps no one.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the OT Forum in a nutshell?
There is a lot of that, at least in this thread, but not everyone.
For example: as much gak as I like to give Whembly, I think he genuinely tries to understand the other side's point of view (most of the time! ). I know I do, with the news sources I consume (healthily balanced) and the company I keep (mostly conservatives).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/11 16:48:07
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
Funny that you reference Moore, who can't get his facts straight because of his own political leanings. See item #1 and the "failure" of "trickle down econonomics" or "Reagonomics", and dare to compare.
So basically it was working until Bush Sr. came round. Market unease at being unsure of policies? Bush's own opposition to the policies? A little bit of everything. The problem with the world today is that people can't simply let something that works go without trying to "fix" it. They should take a cue from the 1911A1, and just leave certain designs alone.
Except it doesn't work. Point blank, full stop. Does. Not. Work. Trickle-down policies were tried at the beginning of the Great Depression... Made things worse.
And it always fails because of the one thing those policy makers fail to account for: the benevolence of the top 1%.... It's been proven time and time and time again, that the people most benefited by trickle down, are those at the very top.... it NEVER trickles down anywhere.
Two things:
a) Toldya the ACA is vastly unpopular that hung like a millstone around the democrat's neck
b) Interesting that the "build the wall" is last on this list. Probably supports Theil's position that Trump voters didn't really take him literally, but seriously.
sirlynchmob wrote: This stuff is still funny, Trump won, it's the liberals fault.
We didn't want to vote for him, but those liberals made us do it.
We just voted for him in the primaries and in the election, because those liberals forced us to.
will the GOP ever man up and take responsibility for anything it does? I doubt it and expect the liberals will still be blamed for everything that happens over the next 4 years.
...and that how we got President Trump.
You keep on being you.
ya ya, it's my fault because I didn't vote for him. All those who did vote for him, they're clearly not responsible for his winning, you can't blame those that voted for him.
sirlynchmob wrote: This stuff is still funny, Trump won, it's the liberals fault.
We didn't want to vote for him, but those liberals made us do it.
We just voted for him in the primaries and in the election, because those liberals forced us to.
will the GOP ever man up and take responsibility for anything it does? I doubt it and expect the liberals will still be blamed for everything that happens over the next 4 years.
...and that how we got President Trump.
You keep on being you.
ya ya, it's my fault because I didn't vote for him. All those who did vote for him, they're clearly not responsible for his winning, you can't blame those that voted for him.
That wasn't my point.
My point was that the emergence of liberal positions in the last few years contributed to the backlash that ultimately helped Trump.
sirlynchmob wrote: This stuff is still funny, Trump won, it's the liberals fault.
We didn't want to vote for him, but those liberals made us do it.
We just voted for him in the primaries and in the election, because those liberals forced us to.
will the GOP ever man up and take responsibility for anything it does? I doubt it and expect the liberals will still be blamed for everything that happens over the next 4 years.
...and that how we got President Trump.
You keep on being you.
ya ya, it's my fault because I didn't vote for him. All those who did vote for him, they're clearly not responsible for his winning, you can't blame those that voted for him.
Dude, an explanation of motivating factors =/= an abdication of responsibility for one's actions
a) Toldya the ACA is vastly unpopular that hung like a millstone around the democrat's neck
b) Interesting that the "build the wall" is last on this list. Probably supports Theil's position that Trump voters didn't really take him literally, but seriously.
a) and if we look back, we'll see that there were plenty of opportunities to make it work better, and be something better than it is.... someone didn't want to work on that
b) let's be honest... it's #8 on the list. Im sure we could expand the list out to a number of other topics beyond it.
I also have to wonder if the people who are saying "reduce federal spending" are the same ones saying "increase military spending"..... Seems like a huge amount of cognitive dissonance there.
a) Toldya the ACA is vastly unpopular that hung like a millstone around the democrat's neck
b) Interesting that the "build the wall" is last on this list. Probably supports Theil's position that Trump voters didn't really take him literally, but seriously.
a) and if we look back, we'll see that there were plenty of opportunities to make it work better, and be something better than it is.... someone didn't want to work on that
b) let's be honest... it's #8 on the list. Im sure we could expand the list out to a number of other topics beyond it.
I also have to wonder if the people who are saying "reduce federal spending" are the same ones saying "increase military spending"..... Seems like a huge amount of cognitive dissonance there.
The Democrats had the votes they needed to write the ACA to be whatever they wanted it to be and pass it into law. The flaws in the ACA are there because they were written into the legislation that the Democrats chose to vote for. If they wanted it to be better they could have and should have written it better but they wrote what they wrote and passed what they passed and we got what we got.
Republican involvement with writing and passing the ACA might have made the bill better or it might have made it worse or it might have made no meaningful difference, we won't ever know since it didn't happen that way.
The Democrats had the votes they needed to write the ACA to be whatever they wanted it to be and pass it into law. The flaws in the ACA are there because they were written into the legislation that the Democrats chose to vote for. If they wanted it to be better they could have and should have written it better but they wrote what they wrote and passed what they passed and we got what we got.
Republican involvement with writing and passing the ACA might have made the bill better or it might have made it worse or it might have made no meaningful difference, we won't ever know since it didn't happen that way.
What I'm saying is, instead of Republicans digging their heels in saying, "we're gonna oppose it!!!" they shoulda been saying, "the people want this reform, how do we make it work best for everyone?"
Yeah, it so happened that the Democrats had the numbers where they didn't "need" republicans, but I do recall they at least offered a hand out to work together.
a) Toldya the ACA is vastly unpopular that hung like a millstone around the democrat's neck
b) Interesting that the "build the wall" is last on this list. Probably supports Theil's position that Trump voters didn't really take him literally, but seriously.
a) and if we look back, we'll see that there were plenty of opportunities to make it work better, and be something better than it is.... someone didn't want to work on that
b) let's be honest... it's #8 on the list. Im sure we could expand the list out to a number of other topics beyond it.
I also have to wonder if the people who are saying "reduce federal spending" are the same ones saying "increase military spending"..... Seems like a huge amount of cognitive dissonance there.
The Democrats had the votes they needed to write the ACA to be whatever they wanted it to be and pass it into law. The flaws in the ACA are there because they were written into the legislation that the Democrats chose to vote for. If they wanted it to be better they could have and should have written it better but they wrote what they wrote and passed what they passed and we got what we got.
Republican involvement with writing and passing the ACA might have made the bill better or it might have made it worse or it might have made no meaningful difference, we won't ever know since it didn't happen that way.
The GOP had 6 years to pass legislation to make it better, they chose not to do it.
They know a reality that their vocal supporters are refusing to accept: repealing Obamacare is political suicide and it will never happen. They were more than happy to repeal it over and over again for the past 6 years because they knew that it wouldn't get repealed and that they could safely hide behind the veto thread and a Senate that wouldn't work with them while saying "we tried, we know it's evil, but we tried". They now have the House, the Senate, and the White House and they are already on record on saying that it likely won't get repealed because they don't have 60 votes in the senate.
As for fixing it, I think that there is no way to reform it that lets you keep all the good stuff you like without most of the bad stuff staying. We won't know for sure because they sure haven't tried.
The Democrats had the votes they needed to write the ACA to be whatever they wanted it to be and pass it into law. The flaws in the ACA are there because they were written into the legislation that the Democrats chose to vote for. If they wanted it to be better they could have and should have written it better but they wrote what they wrote and passed what they passed and we got what we got.
Republican involvement with writing and passing the ACA might have made the bill better or it might have made it worse or it might have made no meaningful difference, we won't ever know since it didn't happen that way.
What I'm saying is, instead of Republicans digging their heels in saying, "we're gonna oppose it!!!" they shoulda been saying, "the people want this reform, how do we make it work best for everyone?"
Yeah, it so happened that the Democrats had the numbers where they didn't "need" republicans, but I do recall they at least offered a hand out to work together.
I live in a red county that had almost every voter voting for Trump. Here Obama is a bad word, and Obamacare is the reason for that. Healthcare premiums have increased for the many self employed farmers and contractors. All the government employees here have seen their rates hike significantly. Throw the darkies/gays out wasn't the battle cry here, it was people wanting to keep more of their paycheck. Why bother trying to fix something when you can weaponize it? Politics as usual. Big moves happen after elections, not before them. The ACA was rolled out after the 2012 election. Every move made is to ensure re-election or be used as ammunition against the other side. Now that the election is over with we'll see new legislation, and they'll hope we'll forget come next cycle. Spoiler: we will.
d-usa wrote: I look at people who voted for Trump the same way, It's okay to have voted for Trump as long as you didn't vote for him because of racism/sexism/homophobia".
The flip side of that is that a lot of single issue voters often don't understand how the other issues might adversely affect everyone. For example, people who voted for Trump because of his stance on gun control (which is an easy issue to understand), might not have fully grasped the consequences of his economic plan to cut corporation tax. He said it will bring business back and make America great again, and I imagine a lot of people took him at his word, because who wants to go reading about something boring like economics?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/11 17:21:44
a) Toldya the ACA is vastly unpopular that hung like a millstone around the democrat's neck
b) Interesting that the "build the wall" is last on this list. Probably supports Theil's position that Trump voters didn't really take him literally, but seriously.
a) and if we look back, we'll see that there were plenty of opportunities to make it work better, and be something better than it is.... someone didn't want to work on that
b) let's be honest... it's #8 on the list. Im sure we could expand the list out to a number of other topics beyond it.
I also have to wonder if the people who are saying "reduce federal spending" are the same ones saying "increase military spending"..... Seems like a huge amount of cognitive dissonance there.
The Democrats had the votes they needed to write the ACA to be whatever they wanted it to be and pass it into law. The flaws in the ACA are there because they were written into the legislation that the Democrats chose to vote for. If they wanted it to be better they could have and should have written it better but they wrote what they wrote and passed what they passed and we got what we got.
Republican involvement with writing and passing the ACA might have made the bill better or it might have made it worse or it might have made no meaningful difference, we won't ever know since it didn't happen that way.
The GOP had 6 years to pass legislation to make it better, they chose not to do it.
They know a reality that their vocal supporters are refusing to accept: repealing Obamacare is political suicide and it will never happen. They were more than happy to repeal it over and over again for the past 6 years because they knew that it wouldn't get repealed and that they could safely hide behind the veto thread and a Senate that wouldn't work with them while saying "we tried, we know it's evil, but we tried". They now have the House, the Senate, and the White House and they are already on record on saying that it likely won't get repealed because they don't have 60 votes in the senate.
As for fixing it, I think that there is no way to reform it that lets you keep all the good stuff you like without most of the bad stuff staying. We won't know for sure because they sure haven't tried.
I'm not saying that the Republicans did the right thing in their approach to the ACA, just pointing out that blame for faults in legislation lies with the ones who wrote it and passed it.
I don't think we'll see the ACA get repealed as I don't see what the Republicans could pass that would be better or get enough Democratic support to get through without a super majority.
I think in the next year we'll see the Republican majority in congress try to pass addendums to the ACA about things like Health Savings Accounts and Tort Reform so that they can present some token action to their constituents without having to take on the task of replacing the ACA wholesale. We might also see an attempt at bi partisan legislation to put more restrictions on federal representatives and employees becoming lobbyists, nothing drastic but longer waiting periods that apply to more people type of thing. Then when themed terms come around the Republicans will tell voters that if they want real substantially change like a complete repeal of Obamacare they need to create a Republican supermajority (that likely won't come to pass but it's good political cover to hide behind).
I don't think we'll see any legislative effort that would be a partisan overreach and invite a midterm backlash. I don't know much about Mitch McConnell but from what I've heard and read he just luurvs being in charge of the Senate and he's not going to want to give up his majority leader status after just a couple years for the sake of passing some petty fethed up partisan legislation that could cost the Republicans senate seats in purple states.
d-usa: I'm so glad you brought up the Catholic vote. Catholic voters are constantly brow-beaten with "a vote for [Democrat] is a vote for murdering the innocent." It's just not a successful argument, IME. Just like in this context, the tendency is to demonize and therefore destroy whatever ground there could have been for a "working relationship."
As to the debate on whether Trump won because Democrats forgot the working class OR Trump won because Democrats indulge in the language of "political correctness" - I think the latter is part of the former. The reason the working class feel abandoned by Democrats is partially to do with a language disconnect - the way Democrats are talking is brimming with hostility, to their ears. It is the song of their abandonment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/11 17:57:38
d-usa wrote: I look at people who voted for Trump the same way, It's okay to have voted for Trump as long as you didn't vote for him because of racism/sexism/homophobia".
The flip side of that is that a lot of single issue voters often don't understand how the other issues might adversely affect everyone. For example, people who voted for Trump because of his stance on gun control (which is an easy issue to understand), might not have fully grasped the consequences of his economic plan to cut corporation tax. He said it will bring business back and make America great again, and I imagine a lot of people took him at his word, because who wants to go reading about something boring like economics?
I have a few friends that are gun owning veterans who refused to vote for Hillary because of her 2A positions but refused to vote for Trump because of his (and mostly Pence's) anti LGBT positions. We all voted Libertarian instead. As you say, that's the problem with single issue voters, it's often a trade off where you're getting a "good" position on one issue but also a "terrible" position on another.
My concern for the next 4 years is centered more on Trump himself than anything he's said or done on the campaign trail or previously. He doesn't strike me as particularly trustworthy fellow or somebody who cares deeply about other or liberty, he comes across as a egomaniac that change positions or do whatever to make himself look good. This is the kind of thing that makes it a problem for people to rationalize that it's ok to have secret courts that convict Americans of terror crimes in absentia on the basis of top secret evidence that never gets released and allows those convicted to be put on assassination lists by the president to be killed via drone attacks because the current PotUS is "their" guy who wouldn't abuse or misuse the power. Donald fething Trump is now in charge of the whole federal surveillance state and anti terror mechanisms both foreign and domestic. Who's going to get shipped to black sites or be placed on the no fly list or declared to be a terrorist? I don't mean this in a crazy conspiracy theory they're coming to get me way, I mean these programs already exist and now Trump is in charge of them. Does he continue them? Does he disband them? Who does he put in charge of them? Does he make the programs more transparent and accountable to the public? Who's going to advise him on this stuff? What new programs will Trump create what new precedents will he set? This stuff will affect Trump's term and continue to reverberate through every subsequent presidency in the future.
Those right wing people like Farrage, Le Pen, Wilders, Orban and others like the German stupidity party AfD seem to have easy solutions for difficult problems.
But they never have to prove that their solutions work as they won't.
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sirlynchmob wrote: This stuff is still funny, Trump won, it's the liberals fault.
We didn't want to vote for him, but those liberals made us do it.
We just voted for him in the primaries and in the election, because those liberals forced us to.
will the GOP ever man up and take responsibility for anything it does? I doubt it and expect the liberals will still be blamed for everything that happens over the next 4 years.
...and that how we got President Trump.
You keep on being you.
ya ya, it's my fault because I didn't vote for him. All those who did vote for him, they're clearly not responsible for his winning, you can't blame those that voted for him.
That wasn't my point.
My point was that the emergence of liberal positions in the last few years contributed to the backlash that ultimately helped Trump.
Ignore that at your own peril.
ya I know, those horrible positions of equality, Everyone should have the right to marry and affordable health care. how dare they.
what about the emergence of the conservative positions, obstruct everything especially if it helps the middle class and working americans. all job bills fillabustered and voted down, help for the first responders of 9/11 then voted it down. In 08 they were vowing to obstruct everything obama did, then when their guy wins, blame the liberals for that as well, while telling the liberals they need to support this monster and give him a chance. They might like living in the 1920's, segregation is a good thing, it's separate but equal, see equality right there.
Gee, I wonder why the liberals decided to protest the election.
and back on the electoral college for a minute, could the protesters actually convince any of the EC to change their votes? they are in no way legally required to vote based on what their people want and are free to change their minds and still give us hillary. I bet then people would finally start agreeing with me that it should be done away with and just go with the popular vote.
sirlynchmob wrote: This stuff is still funny, Trump won, it's the liberals fault.
We didn't want to vote for him, but those liberals made us do it.
We just voted for him in the primaries and in the election, because those liberals forced us to.
will the GOP ever man up and take responsibility for anything it does? I doubt it and expect the liberals will still be blamed for everything that happens over the next 4 years.
...and that how we got President Trump.
You keep on being you.
ya ya, it's my fault because I didn't vote for him. All those who did vote for him, they're clearly not responsible for his winning, you can't blame those that voted for him.
That wasn't my point.
My point was that the emergence of liberal positions in the last few years contributed to the backlash that ultimately helped Trump.
Ignore that at your own peril.
ya I know, those horrible positions of equality, Everyone should have the right to marry and affordable health care. how dare they.
what about the emergence of the conservative positions, obstruct everything especially if it helps the middle class and working americans. all job bills fillabustered and voted down, help for the first responders of 9/11 then voted it down. In 08 they were vowing to obstruct everything obama did, then when their guy wins, blame the liberals for that as well, while telling the liberals they need to support this monster and give him a chance. They might like living in the 1920's, segregation is a good thing, it's separate but equal, see equality right there.
Gee, I wonder why the liberals decided to protest the election.
and back on the electoral college for a minute, could the protesters actually convince any of the EC to change their votes? they are in no way legally required to vote based on what their people want and are free to change their minds and still give us hillary. I bet then people would finally start agreeing with me that it should be done away with and just go with the popular vote.
The majority of the Electors are bound to the results of the election in their state and given the selection process for the Electors it would be very unlikely that they would oppose the outcome desired by the body or party who selected them to be an Elector in the first place.
State Control of Electors
There is no federal law that requires electors to vote as they have pledged, but 29 states and the District of Columbia have legal control over how their electors vote in the Electoral College. This means their electors are bound by state law and/or by state or party pledge to cast their vote for the candidate that wins the statewide popular vote. At the same time, this also means that there are 21 states in the union that have no requirements of, or legal control over, their electors. Therefore, despite the outcome of a state’s popular vote, the state’s electors are ultimately free to vote in whatever manner they please, including an abstention, with no legal repercussions. The states with legal control over their electors are the following 29 and D.C.:
Alabama (Code of Ala. §17-19-2)
Alaska (Alaska Stat. §15.30.090)
California (Election Code §6906)
Colorado (CRS §1-4-304)
Connecticut (Conn. Gen. Stat. §9-176)
Delaware (15 Del C §4303)
District of Columbia (§1-1312(g))
Florida (Fla. Stat. §103.021(1))
Hawaii (HRS §14-28)
Maine (21-A MRS §805)
Maryland (Md Ann Code art 33, §8-505)
Massachusetts (MGL, ch. 53, §8)
Michigan (MCL §168.47)
Mississippi (Miss Code Ann §23-15-785)
Montana (MCA §13-25-104)
Nebraska (§32-714)
Nevada (NRS §298.050)
New Mexico (NM Stat Ann §1-15-9)
North Carolina (NC Gen Stat §163-212)
Ohio (ORC Ann §3505.40)
Oklahoma (26 Okl St §10-102)
Oregon (ORS §248.355)
South Carolina (SC Code Ann §7-19-80)
Tennessee (Tenn Code Ann §2-15-104(c))
Utah (Utah Code Ann §20A-13-304)
Vermont (17 VSA §2732)
Virginia (§24.2-203)
Washington (RCW §29.71.020)
Wisconsin (Wis Stat §7.75)
Wyoming (Wyo Stat §22-19-108)
Most of these state laws generally assert that an elector shall cast his or her vote for the candidates who won a majority of the state’s popular vote, or for the candidate of the party that nominated the elector.
Over the years, however, despite legal oversight, a number of electors have violated their state’s law binding them to their pledged vote. However, these violators often only face being charged with a misdemeanor or a small fine, usually $1,000. Many constitutional scholars agree that electors remain free agents despite state laws and that, if challenged, such laws would be ruled unconstitutional. Therefore, electors can decline to cast their vote for a specific candidate (the one that wins the popular vote of their state), either voting for an alternative candidate, or abstaining completely. In fact, in the 2000 election, Barbara Lett-Simmons, an elector for the District of Columbia, cast a blank ballot for president and vice president in protest of the District’s unfair voting rights. Indeed, when it comes down to it, electors are ultimately free to vote for whom they personally prefer, despite the general public's desire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/11 18:30:41
a) Toldya the ACA is vastly unpopular that hung like a millstone around the democrat's neck
b) Interesting that the "build the wall" is last on this list. Probably supports Theil's position that Trump voters didn't really take him literally, but seriously.
a) and if we look back, we'll see that there were plenty of opportunities to make it work better, and be something better than it is.... someone didn't want to work on that
b) let's be honest... it's #8 on the list. Im sure we could expand the list out to a number of other topics beyond it.
I also have to wonder if the people who are saying "reduce federal spending" are the same ones saying "increase military spending"..... Seems like a huge amount of cognitive dissonance there.
The Democrats had the votes they needed to write the ACA to be whatever they wanted it to be and pass it into law. The flaws in the ACA are there because they were written into the legislation that the Democrats chose to vote for. If they wanted it to be better they could have and should have written it better but they wrote what they wrote and passed what they passed and we got what we got.
Republican involvement with writing and passing the ACA might have made the bill better or it might have made it worse or it might have made no meaningful difference, we won't ever know since it didn't happen that way.
The GOP had 6 years to pass legislation to make it better, they chose not to do it.
They know a reality that their vocal supporters are refusing to accept: repealing Obamacare is political suicide and it will never happen. They were more than happy to repeal it over and over again for the past 6 years because they knew that it wouldn't get repealed and that they could safely hide behind the veto thread and a Senate that wouldn't work with them while saying "we tried, we know it's evil, but we tried". They now have the House, the Senate, and the White House and they are already on record on saying that it likely won't get repealed because they don't have 60 votes in the senate.
As for fixing it, I think that there is no way to reform it that lets you keep all the good stuff you like without most of the bad stuff staying. We won't know for sure because they sure haven't tried.
Here is the game plan.
1. Repeal obamacare
2. Introduce a new law that is the same thing, but with the tweaks that were needed, tort reform, and ability to buy insurance across state lines
3. Call it Trumpcare
4, Pass it
5. Claim they saved Health care!
6. Win elections and be massively popular!
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sirlynchmob wrote: This stuff is still funny, Trump won, it's the liberals fault.
We didn't want to vote for him, but those liberals made us do it.
We just voted for him in the primaries and in the election, because those liberals forced us to.
will the GOP ever man up and take responsibility for anything it does? I doubt it and expect the liberals will still be blamed for everything that happens over the next 4 years.
...and that how we got President Trump.
You keep on being you.
ya ya, it's my fault because I didn't vote for him. All those who did vote for him, they're clearly not responsible for his winning, you can't blame those that voted for him.
That wasn't my point.
My point was that the emergence of liberal positions in the last few years contributed to the backlash that ultimately helped Trump.
Ignore that at your own peril.
ya I know, those horrible positions of equality, Everyone should have the right to marry and affordable health care. how dare they.
what about the emergence of the conservative positions, obstruct everything especially if it helps the middle class and working americans. all job bills fillabustered and voted down, help for the first responders of 9/11 then voted it down. In 08 they were vowing to obstruct everything obama did, then when their guy wins, blame the liberals for that as well, while telling the liberals they need to support this monster and give him a chance. They might like living in the 1920's, segregation is a good thing, it's separate but equal, see equality right there.
Gee, I wonder why the liberals decided to protest the election.
and back on the electoral college for a minute, could the protesters actually convince any of the EC to change their votes? they are in no way legally required to vote based on what their people want and are free to change their minds and still give us hillary. I bet then people would finally start agreeing with me that it should be done away with and just go with the popular vote.
The majority of the Electors are bound to the results of the election in their state and given the selection process for the Electors it would be very unlikely that they would oppose the outcome desired by the body or party who selected them to be an Elector in the first place.
State Control of Electors
There is no federal law that requires electors to vote as they have pledged, but 29 states and the District of Columbia have legal control over how their electors vote in the Electoral College. This means their electors are bound by state law and/or by state or party pledge to cast their vote for the candidate that wins the statewide popular vote. At the same time, this also means that there are 21 states in the union that have no requirements of, or legal control over, their electors. Therefore, despite the outcome of a state’s popular vote, the state’s electors are ultimately free to vote in whatever manner they please, including an abstention, with no legal repercussions. The states with legal control over their electors are the following 29 and D.C.:
Spoiler:
Alabama (Code of Ala. §17-19-2)
Alaska (Alaska Stat. §15.30.090)
California (Election Code §6906)
Colorado (CRS §1-4-304)
Connecticut (Conn. Gen. Stat. §9-176)
Delaware (15 Del C §4303)
District of Columbia (§1-1312(g))
Florida (Fla. Stat. §103.021(1))
Hawaii (HRS §14-28)
Maine (21-A MRS §805)
Maryland (Md Ann Code art 33, §8-505)
Massachusetts (MGL, ch. 53, §8)
Michigan (MCL §168.47)
Mississippi (Miss Code Ann §23-15-785)
Montana (MCA §13-25-104)
Nebraska (§32-714)
Nevada (NRS §298.050)
New Mexico (NM Stat Ann §1-15-9)
North Carolina (NC Gen Stat §163-212)
Ohio (ORC Ann §3505.40)
Oklahoma (26 Okl St §10-102)
Oregon (ORS §248.355)
South Carolina (SC Code Ann §7-19-80)
Tennessee (Tenn Code Ann §2-15-104(c))
Utah (Utah Code Ann §20A-13-304)
Vermont (17 VSA §2732)
Virginia (§24.2-203)
Washington (RCW §29.71.020)
Wisconsin (Wis Stat §7.75)
Wyoming (Wyo Stat §22-19-108)
Most of these state laws generally assert that an elector shall cast his or her vote for the candidates who won a majority of the state’s popular vote, or for the candidate of the party that nominated the elector.
Over the years, however, despite legal oversight, a number of electors have violated their state’s law binding them to their pledged vote. However, these violators often only face being charged with a misdemeanor or a small fine, usually $1,000. Many constitutional scholars agree that electors remain free agents despite state laws and that, if challenged, such laws would be ruled unconstitutional. Therefore, electors can decline to cast their vote for a specific candidate (the one that wins the popular vote of their state), either voting for an alternative candidate, or abstaining completely. In fact, in the 2000 election, Barbara Lett-Simmons, an elector for the District of Columbia, cast a blank ballot for president and vice president in protest of the District’s unfair voting rights. Indeed, when it comes down to it, electors are ultimately free to vote for whom they personally prefer, despite the general public's desire.
You notice what state was missed? Texas, As they have a growing libertarian and liberal populations, he could look at the trump nominees and know that having a young earth creationist in charge of education is bad. That's been one of their issues already.
come on frazz, sick your dogs on your elector and get him to change his mind. Help us Frazz, you're our only hope
sirlynchmob wrote: This stuff is still funny, Trump won, it's the liberals fault.
We didn't want to vote for him, but those liberals made us do it.
We just voted for him in the primaries and in the election, because those liberals forced us to.
will the GOP ever man up and take responsibility for anything it does? I doubt it and expect the liberals will still be blamed for everything that happens over the next 4 years.
If the liberals hadn't muscled Sanders out so that Clinton could get her turn at the Presidency while shouting ceaselessly at leftists that she's flawless and must be voted for or else Trump wins, then perhaps participation wouldn't have been down so massively and the Democratic candidate would've won. Now the Democratic Party is a smoking ruin, no branch of government cares for lgbt people and we've got a big surge of nazi activity to look forward to. On the plus side there's also going to be a big, hopefully bigger, surge of actual leftism. All the protests forming within 24 hours and marching on multiple cities are promising.
Many commentators have noted the consistency of Sanders's views throughout his political career.[199][200] Calling international trade agreements a "disaster for the American worker", Sanders voted against and has spoken for years against NAFTA, CAFTA, and PNTR with China, saying that they have resulted in American corporations moving abroad.
d-usa wrote: I look at people who voted for Trump the same way, It's okay to have voted for Trump as long as you didn't vote for him because of racism/sexism/homophobia".
The flip side of that is that a lot of single issue voters often don't understand how the other issues might adversely affect everyone. For example, people who voted for Trump because of his stance on gun control (which is an easy issue to understand), might not have fully grasped the consequences of his economic plan to cut corporation tax. He said it will bring business back and make America great again, and I imagine a lot of people took him at his word, because who wants to go reading about something boring like economics?
I have a few friends that are gun owning veterans who refused to vote for Hillary because of her 2A positions but refused to vote for Trump because of his (and mostly Pence's) anti LGBT positions. We all voted Libertarian instead. As you say, that's the problem with single issue voters, it's often a trade off where you're getting a "good" position on one issue but also a "terrible" position on another.
Which is fine if you're well informed about the pros and cons, but sadly a lot of people aren't. I visited my elderly aunty last year, and she was saying how good it was that UKIP are gaining momentum. I have to say, I was a little shocked. I'm aware that I live in a bit of a liberal echo chamber, and I do try to get out of it as much as I can (that's why I like coming here and talking to you), but sometimes you don't expect a member of your family to be living in an entirely different echo chamber. From her perspective, UKIP were the good guys, here to stop all the bureaucrats in Europe telling us what to do. The thing is, she's a lovely person, but she didn't go to college, and I don't think she really understands what the single market is or how it affects us. I'm sure if she realised that leaving Europe would cause a recession, and make Marmite cost more, she wouldn't be very keen on the idea at all. But she didn't even really know what she was voting for.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/11 19:09:33
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