Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
but nope they want to mine coal just like granpappy and get black lung like him
Your post demonstrates my point.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
sebster wrote: Did anyone else follow Trump's announcement that he saved jobs from that air conditioner company moving to Mexico.
It turns out Trump has had his running mate Mike Pence offer up a pile of incentives to get Carrier to keep half the jobs in Mexico. So Trump the great deal maker ended up signing off on a deal to have government pay, while 1,000 jobs still went to Mexico. That's the art of negotiation, apparently.
It also opens the door for any company in the future who decides it wants to offshore some jobs. If they wanted to offshore 5,000 jobs, why wouldn't they claim they wanted to offshore 10,000, get Trump to hand over umpteen million in government dollars, and still offshore the 5,000 positions they originally planned for?
That said, saving 1,000 jobs makes a difference to some families. But to really get an idea of how much this deal was just a piddly thing on the national scale, here's a couple of comparisons. Since 2000 about 5.2 million manufacturing jobs have been lost in the US. For Trump to recover manufacturing back to that peak, he would need to make another 5,200 deals equal to the Carrier deal. Or to compare to Obama, who's auto-bailout saved 1.5 million jobs, Trump would need to make another 1,500 Carrier sized deals, just to equal Obama's auto bailout.
And remember, Republicans hated the auto bailout. But now Trump is pouring money into PR stunts that save a tiny number of jobs, and it's Trump the great dealmaker. Suddenyly government money to prop up industry is okay again. I personally am shocked about this reversal.
Sebs.... you forgot one key point. It feels good to the base. There is no arguing about the Feelz. It's what plants crave!
I saw the headline article, and didn't read the article. From the headline alone most people's immediate thought was probably.... "huh, maybe is going to try and do something for the working class". I am guessing that is the exact reaction he wanted from his base too. We are in post-modern politics now. it is nto about governance, it is about showmanship. There has always been an element of this showmanship in politics, but I have a feeling it is about to go to 11. I mean, we are being led by a professional showman!
Its nice to feel superior, however considering the utter lack of concern by the previous Presidents and HRC at least something is being done. I know people on the coasts don't seem to give a gak, but then again thats why they've lost nearly everything.
Perhaps you missed where Obama bailed-out the auto industry despite Republican attempts to stop him? Perhaps you missed their efforts around the Union Check Voting for labor? Maybe you are confused on who gives a gak about jobs and who doesn't?
Plus, I do not live on the Coasts. I live in a manufacturing town in the manufacturing industry! In the heart of Red country. Trust me I give a huge gak.
Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing
BigWaaagh wrote: A high school degree doesn't get you jack nowadays.
I dunno, all I have is a high school diploma and I seem to have done well for myself.
Well, I can't talk on your specifics, because I don't know anything about them or you. But it's always true that there are exceptions to every rule. Bill Gates dropped out of college, but that's not exactly the example I'd use to pitch people on the merits of a degree, or not. The degree statement is valid. A college degree, or some skilled vocational education, is the only path forward. Just having only a HS degree simply locks too many out from having access to a path for a comfortable life and prosperity.
BigWaaagh wrote: A high school degree doesn't get you jack nowadays.
I dunno, all I have is a high school diploma and I seem to have done well for myself.
I was going to say...
There's an alarming view that you can only succeed if you have a college degree... that there's this backhanded insults to blue-collar jobs.
I know of two professional welders (with HS diplomas only), that are making as much, if not more than me (a college graduate). The single guy.... he has a lot of fething toys!
This... I surprisingly agree with whembly on this one. I respect and admire Mike Rowe for his foundation, and the work he's been doing for the past number of years. I'm currently preparing to become a teacher, and while I may be a bit idealistic about it right now, this is one of the things that I hope I can work to change, at least in my area.
That said, there is a kind of ceiling in place if you don't have some kind of higher education, and I will put tech school in with this as well as traditional college. How many true management jobs are there for guys/gals who have the experience, but no degree? IMO, one of the big disconnects in business is from the HS diploma holding floor worker, and the bachelor's holding middle management. Neither one really understands the other, and it really shows... both at work, and in politics.
edit: as BigWaaagh points out in the post just previous... tech schools and the like are becoming a larger and larger part of industrial standards today. I don't know of a single major industry/company willing to do OJT for younger people to get them the skills necessary to work and succeed. In my area, if you want a welding job, you'd better fething have a welding "degree" from one of the local technical colleges. Want to turn wrenches on a car? you'd better already walk into that job with your ASE certification. Same thing for HVAC, electrical work, etc. etc. etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/01 16:11:22
Did anyone else follow Trump's announcement that he saved jobs from that air conditioner company moving to Mexico.
It turns out Trump has had his running mate Mike Pence offer up a pile of incentives to get Carrier to keep half the jobs in Mexico. So Trump the great deal maker ended up signing off on a deal to have government pay, while 1,000 jobs still went to Mexico. That's the art of negotiation, apparently.
It also opens the door for any company in the future who decides it wants to offshore some jobs. If they wanted to offshore 5,000 jobs, why wouldn't they claim they wanted to offshore 10,000, get Trump to hand over umpteen million in government dollars, and still offshore the 5,000 positions they originally planned for?
That said, saving 1,000 jobs makes a difference to some families. But to really get an idea of how much this deal was just a piddly thing on the national scale, here's a couple of comparisons. Since 2000 about 5.2 million manufacturing jobs have been lost in the US. For Trump to recover manufacturing back to that peak, he would need to make another 5,200 deals equal to the Carrier deal. Or to compare to Obama, who's auto-bailout saved 1.5 million jobs, Trump would need to make another 1,500 Carrier sized deals, just to equal Obama's auto bailout.
And remember, Republicans hated the auto bailout. But now Trump is pouring money into PR stunts that save a tiny number of jobs, and it's Trump the great dealmaker. Suddenyly government money to prop up industry is okay again. I personally am shocked about this reversal.
Sebs.... you forgot one key point. It feels good to the base. There is no arguing about the Feelz. It's what plants crave!
I saw the headline article, and didn't read the article. From the headline alone most people's immediate thought was probably.... "huh, maybe is going to try and do something for the working class". I am guessing that is the exact reaction he wanted from his base too. We are in post-modern politics now. it is nto about governance, it is about showmanship. There has always been an element of this showmanship in politics, but I have a feeling it is about to go to 11. I mean, we are being led by a professional showman!
Its nice to feel superior, however considering the utter lack of concern by the previous Presidents and HRC at least something is being done. I know people on the coasts don't seem to give a gak, but then again thats why they've lost nearly everything.
Perhaps you missed where Obama bailed-out the auto industry despite Republican attempts to stop him? Perhaps you missed their efforts around the Union Check Voting for labor? Maybe you are confused on who gives a gak about jobs and who doesn't?
Plus, I do not live on the Coasts. I live in a manufacturing town in the manufacturing industry! In the heart of Red country. Trust me I give a huge gak.
One other point. I work in the Manufacturing Industry. The reason these jobs are going away isn't competition, it isn't trade agreements, it isn't auotmation, it isn't efficiency gains; even though all those things are happening.
These jobs are going away because no one is willing to pay for them. That is the root cause that is driving all of these changes. Ask Kronk, he's a Six Sigma/LEAN guy too.
Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing
BigWaaagh wrote: A high school degree doesn't get you jack nowadays.
I dunno, all I have is a high school diploma and I seem to have done well for myself.
I was going to say...
There's an alarming view that you can only succeed if you have a college degree... that there's this backhanded insults to blue-collar jobs.
I know of two professional welders (with HS diplomas only), that are making as much, if not more than me (a college graduate). The single guy.... he has a lot of fething toys!
This... I surprisingly agree with whembly on this one. I respect and admire Mike Rowe for his foundation, and the work he's been doing for the past number of years. I'm currently preparing to become a teacher, and while I may be a bit idealistic about it right now, this is one of the things that I hope I can work to change, at least in my area.
That said, there is a kind of ceiling in place if you don't have some kind of higher education, and I will put tech school in with this as well as traditional college. How many true management jobs are there for guys/gals who have the experience, but no degree? IMO, one of the big disconnects in business is from the HS diploma holding floor worker, and the bachelor's holding middle management. Neither one really understands the other, and it really shows... both at work, and in politics.
As an estimator in a trade industry, I want to jump in on this point. We have a lot of guys with no college degrees making decent money, BUT they do have formal training/vocational training. I think what BigWaagh was saying is that a highschool degree alone (with no additional trade school) doesn't get you gak nowadays. I agree with that. Even with professional welding and sheet metal, there is still formal training/trade school you have to go through before you make decent wages. Just getting a welding job with no experience or training gets you about $10-12/hour, not much more than a retail or grocery store.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/01 16:11:51
As an estimator in a trade industry, I want to jump in on this point. We have a lot of guys with no college degrees making decent money, BUT they do have formal training/vocational training. I think what BigWaagh was saying is that a highschool degree alone (with no additional trade school) doesn't get you gak nowadays. I agree with that. Even with professional welding and sheet metal, there is still formal training/trade school you have to go through.
BigWaaagh wrote: A high school degree doesn't get you jack nowadays.
I dunno, all I have is a high school diploma and I seem to have done well for myself.
I was going to say...
There's an alarming view that you can only succeed if you have a college degree... that there's this backhanded insults to blue-collar jobs.
I know of two professional welders (with HS diplomas only), that are making as much, if not more than me (a college graduate). The single guy.... he has a lot of fething toys!
Isn't this whole recent thread about how Trump was brought in on the back of disgruntled, HS educated, unemployed/underemployed voters? So a backhand insult? No! But a statement of fact in light of the empirical numbers showing that those jobs are just disappearing and will not be returning and cutting your education experience at HS is a certain recipe for difficulties in the workplace of the 21st Century.
As far as the welders, that's an educated/skilled profession that required training, internships, continuing education/training and probably vocational education, akin to a higher educational schedule. So, it's not a real comparison to just a HS degree, is it?
Did anyone else follow Trump's announcement that he saved jobs from that air conditioner company moving to Mexico.
It turns out Trump has had his running mate Mike Pence offer up a pile of incentives to get Carrier to keep half the jobs in Mexico. So Trump the great deal maker ended up signing off on a deal to have government pay, while 1,000 jobs still went to Mexico. That's the art of negotiation, apparently.
It also opens the door for any company in the future who decides it wants to offshore some jobs. If they wanted to offshore 5,000 jobs, why wouldn't they claim they wanted to offshore 10,000, get Trump to hand over umpteen million in government dollars, and still offshore the 5,000 positions they originally planned for?
That said, saving 1,000 jobs makes a difference to some families. But to really get an idea of how much this deal was just a piddly thing on the national scale, here's a couple of comparisons. Since 2000 about 5.2 million manufacturing jobs have been lost in the US. For Trump to recover manufacturing back to that peak, he would need to make another 5,200 deals equal to the Carrier deal. Or to compare to Obama, who's auto-bailout saved 1.5 million jobs, Trump would need to make another 1,500 Carrier sized deals, just to equal Obama's auto bailout.
And remember, Republicans hated the auto bailout. But now Trump is pouring money into PR stunts that save a tiny number of jobs, and it's Trump the great dealmaker. Suddenyly government money to prop up industry is okay again. I personally am shocked about this reversal.
Sebs.... you forgot one key point. It feels good to the base. There is no arguing about the Feelz. It's what plants crave!
I saw the headline article, and didn't read the article. From the headline alone most people's immediate thought was probably.... "huh, maybe is going to try and do something for the working class". I am guessing that is the exact reaction he wanted from his base too. We are in post-modern politics now. it is nto about governance, it is about showmanship. There has always been an element of this showmanship in politics, but I have a feeling it is about to go to 11. I mean, we are being led by a professional showman!
Its nice to feel superior, however considering the utter lack of concern by the previous Presidents and HRC at least something is being done. I know people on the coasts don't seem to give a gak, but then again thats why they've lost nearly everything.
Perhaps you missed where Obama bailed-out the auto industry despite Republican attempts to stop him? Perhaps you missed their efforts around the Union Check Voting for labor? Maybe you are confused on who gives a gak about jobs and who doesn't?
Plus, I do not live on the Coasts. I live in a manufacturing town in the manufacturing industry! In the heart of Red country. Trust me I give a huge gak.
One other point. I work in the Manufacturing Industry. The reason these jobs are going away isn't competition, it isn't trade agreements, it isn't auotmation, it isn't efficiency gains; even though all those things are happening.
These jobs are going away because no one is willing to pay for them. That is the root cause that is driving all of these changes. Ask Kronk, he's a Six Sigma/LEAN guy too.
Nobody wants to pay for them because we have protectionist labor policies. We make labor more expensive so we get less of it. That's not going to change because it's always going to be more expensive to manufacture things in the US than it is in places like China and SE Asia. Paying good wages and providing good benefits costs and the higher those costs get the more incentive there is to find other places to put manufacturing where the labor cost is lower.
but nope they want to mine coal just like granpappy and get black lung like him
Your post demonstrates my point.
I stopped caring about your points when you threatened to kill someone on this board
Whatever.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
BigWaaagh wrote: A high school degree doesn't get you jack nowadays.
I dunno, all I have is a high school diploma and I seem to have done well for myself.
I was going to say...
There's an alarming view that you can only succeed if you have a college degree... that there's this backhanded insults to blue-collar jobs.
I know of two professional welders (with HS diplomas only), that are making as much, if not more than me (a college graduate). The single guy.... he has a lot of fething toys!
Isn't this whole recent thread about how Trump was brought in on the back of disgruntled, HS educated, unemployed/underemployed voters? So a backhand insult? No! But a statement of fact in light of the empirical numbers showing that those jobs are just disappearing and will not be returning and cutting your education experience at HS is a certain recipe for difficulties in the workplace of the 21st Century.
As far as the welders, that's an educated/skilled profession that required training, internships, continuing education/training and probably vocational education, akin to a higher educational schedule. So, it's not a real comparison to just a HS degree, is it?
You're right HS degree isn't equivalent skilled professions... however, HS degrees are still required to get into many blue-collar jobs (with additional training).
Like what Mike Rowe has always advocated... you have to find where those jobs are and determine what you're willing to do to "work it".
Simply getting HS diploma, or even getting a collegiate degree doesn't guarantee that there are jobs for you around the corner.
Bootstrapp'n is an attribute that ought to be praised.
As well as blue-trade industry reps need to be allowed to "talk" to HS students to shed some light on post-HS opportunity in their industry.
If I lived new VA, I'd probably ask scooty if he could talk to my boys about what he does (I believe he's a pipe-fitter), just to expose them that there's more out there than 'collegiate degrees'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/01 16:44:18
Smacks wrote: Also, when you make a screening system for filtering terrorists (such as focusing on Muslims), all it does is provide the terrorists with an easy way to circumvent your system (don't use obvious Muslims). That's why random searches at airports are more effective than profiling. Even though it can seem absurd at times, when you see a 96 year old woman getting frisked, while Pablo Escobar waltzes though unchallenged, it means that no one is above suspicion.
Yeah. Especially these days when you don't need to be born in arab country or to parents from that to be radical muslim it makes even harder.
There's couple radicalized finns that have went there to fight for ISIS and if there's some from Finland bound to be more from bigger countries. How you stop those by banning muslims? Not like they couldn't say...Say they aren't muslims when they enter the country.
Smacks wrote: Also, when you make a screening system for filtering terrorists (such as focusing on Muslims), all it does is provide the terrorists with an easy way to circumvent your system (don't use obvious Muslims). That's why random searches at airports are more effective than profiling. Even though it can seem absurd at times, when you see a 96 year old woman getting frisked, while Pablo Escobar waltzes though unchallenged, it means that no one is above suspicion.
Yeah. Especially these days when you don't need to be born in arab country or to parents from that to be radical muslim it makes even harder.
There's couple radicalized finns that have went there to fight for ISIS and if there's some from Finland bound to be more from bigger countries. How you stop those by banning muslims? Not like they couldn't say...Say they aren't muslims when they enter the country.
Don't let them back into the country. Several nations have done that.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Smacks wrote: Also, when you make a screening system for filtering terrorists (such as focusing on Muslims), all it does is provide the terrorists with an easy way to circumvent your system (don't use obvious Muslims). That's why random searches at airports are more effective than profiling. Even though it can seem absurd at times, when you see a 96 year old woman getting frisked, while Pablo Escobar waltzes though unchallenged, it means that no one is above suspicion.
Yeah. Especially these days when you don't need to be born in arab country or to parents from that to be radical muslim it makes even harder.
There's couple radicalized finns that have went there to fight for ISIS and if there's some from Finland bound to be more from bigger countries. How you stop those by banning muslims? Not like they couldn't say...Say they aren't muslims when they enter the country.
Don't let them back into the country. Several nations have done that.
How does that stop people from radicalizing in country and committing a terror attack in country without ever leaving?
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
sebster wrote: [spoiler]Did anyone else follow Trump's announcement that he saved jobs from that air conditioner company moving to Mexico.
It turns out Trump has had his running mate Mike Pence offer up a pile of incentives to get Carrier to keep half the jobs in Mexico. So Trump the great deal maker ended up signing off on a deal to have government pay, while 1,000 jobs still went to Mexico. That's the art of negotiation, apparently.
It also opens the door for any company in the future who decides it wants to offshore some jobs. If they wanted to offshore 5,000 jobs, why wouldn't they claim they wanted to offshore 10,000, get Trump to hand over umpteen million in government dollars, and still offshore the 5,000 positions they originally planned for?
That said, saving 1,000 jobs makes a difference to some families. But to really get an idea of how much this deal was just a piddly thing on the national scale, here's a couple of comparisons. Since 2000 about 5.2 million manufacturing jobs have been lost in the US. For Trump to recover manufacturing back to that peak, he would need to make another 5,200 deals equal to the Carrier deal. Or to compare to Obama, who's auto-bailout saved 1.5 million jobs, Trump would need to make another 1,500 Carrier sized deals, just to equal Obama's auto bailout.
And remember, Republicans hated the auto bailout. But now Trump is pouring money into PR stunts that save a tiny number of jobs, and it's Trump the great dealmaker. Suddenyly government money to prop up industry is okay again. I personally am shocked about this reversal.
Sebs.... you forgot one key point. It feels good to the base. There is no arguing about the Feelz. It's what plants crave!
I saw the headline article, and didn't read the article. From the headline alone most people's immediate thought was probably.... "huh, maybe is going to try and do something for the working class". I am guessing that is the exact reaction he wanted from his base too. We are in post-modern politics now. it is nto about governance, it is about showmanship. There has always been an element of this showmanship in politics, but I have a feeling it is about to go to 11. I mean, we are being led by a professional showman!
Its nice to feel superior, however considering the utter lack of concern by the previous Presidents and HRC at least something is being done. I know people on the coasts don't seem to give a gak, but then again thats why they've lost nearly everything.
Perhaps you missed where Obama bailed-out the auto industry despite Republican attempts to stop him? Perhaps you missed their efforts around the Union Check Voting for labor? Maybe you are confused on who gives a gak about jobs and who doesn't?
Plus, I do not live on the Coasts. I live in a manufacturing town in the manufacturing industry! In the heart of Red country. Trust me I give a huge gak.
One other point. I work in the Manufacturing Industry. The reason these jobs are going away isn't competition, it isn't trade agreements, it isn't auotmation, it isn't efficiency gains; even though all those things are happening.
These jobs are going away because no one is willing to pay for them. That is the root cause that is driving all of these changes. Ask Kronk, he's a Six Sigma/LEAN guy too. [/spoiler]
Nobody wants to pay for them because we have protectionist labor policies. We make labor more expensive so we get less of it. That's not going to change because it's always going to be more expensive to manufacture things in the US than it is in places like China and SE Asia. Paying good wages and providing good benefits costs and the higher those costs get the more incentive there is to find other places to put manufacturing where the labor cost is lower.
So, your solution is to to try and match labor costs to China, Vietnam, Indonesia? Even with that, guess what they are trying to do too? Make everything cheaper because no one is willing to pay for labor. They want to do it cheaper too, its just that over there it is cheaper to throw bodies at the problem then automate it.
I was visiting India for work. At my hotel, they needed to clean the lawn after a big wedding the night before. In the US, a guy with a lawnmower type device would ride out there and clean it all up after a few passes. There, they lined up 50 staff members in uniform who slowly walked across the lawn a few passes and picked it all up by hand. It was cheaper for them to hire and uniform 50 people than it was to hire one guy with a lawn mower type device.
Please tell me how those manufacturing jobs are going to come back and pay those White Working Class workers the wages that are above the poverty line? This is the 21st Century challenge and it will be a societal issue across the world. It is just that the West is getting there first.
Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing
sebster wrote: [spoiler]Did anyone else follow Trump's announcement that he saved jobs from that air conditioner company moving to Mexico.
It turns out Trump has had his running mate Mike Pence offer up a pile of incentives to get Carrier to keep half the jobs in Mexico. So Trump the great deal maker ended up signing off on a deal to have government pay, while 1,000 jobs still went to Mexico. That's the art of negotiation, apparently.
It also opens the door for any company in the future who decides it wants to offshore some jobs. If they wanted to offshore 5,000 jobs, why wouldn't they claim they wanted to offshore 10,000, get Trump to hand over umpteen million in government dollars, and still offshore the 5,000 positions they originally planned for?
That said, saving 1,000 jobs makes a difference to some families. But to really get an idea of how much this deal was just a piddly thing on the national scale, here's a couple of comparisons. Since 2000 about 5.2 million manufacturing jobs have been lost in the US. For Trump to recover manufacturing back to that peak, he would need to make another 5,200 deals equal to the Carrier deal. Or to compare to Obama, who's auto-bailout saved 1.5 million jobs, Trump would need to make another 1,500 Carrier sized deals, just to equal Obama's auto bailout.
And remember, Republicans hated the auto bailout. But now Trump is pouring money into PR stunts that save a tiny number of jobs, and it's Trump the great dealmaker. Suddenyly government money to prop up industry is okay again. I personally am shocked about this reversal.
Sebs.... you forgot one key point. It feels good to the base. There is no arguing about the Feelz. It's what plants crave!
I saw the headline article, and didn't read the article. From the headline alone most people's immediate thought was probably.... "huh, maybe is going to try and do something for the working class". I am guessing that is the exact reaction he wanted from his base too. We are in post-modern politics now. it is nto about governance, it is about showmanship. There has always been an element of this showmanship in politics, but I have a feeling it is about to go to 11. I mean, we are being led by a professional showman!
Its nice to feel superior, however considering the utter lack of concern by the previous Presidents and HRC at least something is being done. I know people on the coasts don't seem to give a gak, but then again thats why they've lost nearly everything.
Perhaps you missed where Obama bailed-out the auto industry despite Republican attempts to stop him? Perhaps you missed their efforts around the Union Check Voting for labor? Maybe you are confused on who gives a gak about jobs and who doesn't?
Plus, I do not live on the Coasts. I live in a manufacturing town in the manufacturing industry! In the heart of Red country. Trust me I give a huge gak.
One other point. I work in the Manufacturing Industry. The reason these jobs are going away isn't competition, it isn't trade agreements, it isn't auotmation, it isn't efficiency gains; even though all those things are happening.
These jobs are going away because no one is willing to pay for them. That is the root cause that is driving all of these changes. Ask Kronk, he's a Six Sigma/LEAN guy too. [/spoiler]
Nobody wants to pay for them because we have protectionist labor policies. We make labor more expensive so we get less of it. That's not going to change because it's always going to be more expensive to manufacture things in the US than it is in places like China and SE Asia. Paying good wages and providing good benefits costs and the higher those costs get the more incentive there is to find other places to put manufacturing where the labor cost is lower.
So, your solution is to to try and match labor costs to China, Vietnam, Indonesia? Even with that, guess what they are trying to do too? Make everything cheaper because no one is willing to pay for labor. They want to do it cheaper too, its just that over there it is cheaper to throw bodies at the problem then automate it.
I was visiting India for work. At my hotel, they needed to clean the lawn after a big wedding the night before. In the US, a guy with a lawnmower type device would ride out there and clean it all up after a few passes. There, they lined up 50 staff members in uniform who slowly walked across the lawn a few passes and picked it all up by hand. It was cheaper for them to hire and uniform 50 people than it was to hire one guy with a lawn mower type device.
Please tell me how those manufacturing jobs are going to come back and pay those White Working Class workers the wages that are above the poverty line? This is the 21st Century challenge and it will be a societal issue across the world. It is just that the West is getting there first.
I didn't say that we should try to match lower labor costs in other countries. I pointed out that the reason why nobody wants to pay labor costs to manufacture things in the US is because there's cheaper labor options in other countries. Why would a company choose to spend more money to make a product in the US instead of spending less money to make it in Mexico or China or SE Asia? Our labor protections aren't going to go away and even if they did it wouldn't be worthwhile for anybody to accept the equivalent of Chinese labor rates in the US because the low wages would have negligible buying power. The manufacturing jobs we've lost aren't ever coming back. Protectionism has pros and cons and we decided a long time ago that the pros outweighed the cons when it came to protectionist labor policy. We knowingly and willfully created a lot of the conditions we currently have but for various reasons politicians don't want to have frank and honest discussions about them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, some more details of Trump's Carrier "deal" are coming out and the deal is already starting to stink. This one should be titled, "The Art of the Crappy Deal".
Pence was offering tax breaks w-a-a-a-y before Trump came along and Carrier said "no" and that the jobs were moving to Mexico. So, now the POTUS-elect comes along and lo-and-behold there's pretty much the same deal offered and it is accepted. I'm not a mind-reader, but it's pretty obvious Trump pointed out the $6bn in defense billings UTX, Carrier's parent, enjoys and played the leverage card. This interventionist precedent is potentially disasterous in the message it sends and undermines, completely, our credibility and ability to point fingers at other countries for their protectionist measures. It's a policy move that favors large companies like Carrier and punishes smaller businesses and their employees because they don't get the headlines like Carrier does. This is wrong on so many levels. This is unadulterated protectionism and manipulation...how very true to our capitalist model! This type of activity and policy is what eventually can escalate and lead to trade wars.
So this is what 'Make America Great Again' looks like...
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/12/01 19:24:56
Pence was offering tax breaks w-a-a-a-y before Trump came along and Carrier said "no" and that the jobs were moving to Mexico. So, now the POTUS-elect comes along and lo-and-behold there's pretty much the same deal offered and it is accepted. I'm not a mind-reader, but it's pretty obvious Trump pointed out the $6bn in defense billings UTX, Carrier's parent, enjoys and played the leverage card. This interventionist precedent is potentially disasterous in the message it sends and undermines, completely, our ability to point fingers at other countries for their protectionist measures. It's a policy move that favors large companies like Carrier and punishes smaller businesses and their employees because they don't get the headlines like Carrier does. This is wrong on so many levels. This is unadulterated protectionism and manipulation...how very true to our capitalist model!
So this is what 'Make America Great Again' looks like...
Pence was offering tax breaks w-a-a-a-y before Trump came along and Carrier said "no" and that the jobs were moving to Mexico. So, now the POTUS-elect comes along and lo-and-behold there's pretty much the same deal offered and it is accepted. I'm not a mind-reader, but it's pretty obvious Trump pointed out the $6bn in defense billings UTX, Carrier's parent, enjoys and played the leverage card. This interventionist precedent is potentially disasterous in the message it sends and undermines, completely, our ability to point fingers at other countries for their protectionist measures. It's a policy move that favors large companies like Carrier and punishes smaller businesses and their employees because they don't get the headlines like Carrier does. This is wrong on so many levels. This is unadulterated protectionism and manipulation...how very true to our capitalist model!
So this is what 'Make America Great Again' looks like...
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
The goal of the Trump administration appears to be a nation where corporations pay no taxes. If corporations aren’t paying taxes, and the wealthy are getting tax cuts, the tax burden will fall on the shoulders of those who have the least to pay the most.
If corporations around the country follow Carrier’s lead, state and local economies around will be damaged, if political leaders give in to extortion threats.
The bottom line is that Trump and Pence got played by Carrier. The company is still outsourcing more jobs than are staying, but for giving Trump some good publicity, they are being rewarded with tens of millions of dollars in incentives that Indiana taxpayers are now on the hook for.
Trump got played, and even worse he set a precedent for even worse deals to come.
So keep a few jobs and charge the taxpayers more while sending more jobs out of country. Truly we are living in blessed times.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/01 20:52:38
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
The electorate stopped caring about politicians' and parties' principles years ago. Here's an old interview between John Cusack and Jonathan Turley that raises some good points about that. People keep voting for the lesser of two evils because its become ingrained in them that the other party is always the greatest evil. We're voting out of spite and turning elections into pyrrhic victories.
The thing that jumped out at me from that interview:
TURLEY: Well, first of all, there's a great desire of many people to relieve themselves of the obligation to vote on principle. It's a classic rationalization that liberals have been known to use recently, but not just liberals. The Republican and Democratic parties have accomplished an amazing feat with the red state/blue state paradigm. They've convinced everyone that regardless of how bad they are, the other guy is worse. So even with 11 percent of the public supporting Congress most incumbents will be returned to Congress. They have so structured and defined the question that people no longer look at the actual principles and instead vote on this false dichotomy.
I gave it a quick look and didn't see the source for that 11% figure, but there's an alternate interpretation for why Congress has a terrible approval rating, yet high incumbency. People do not approve of Congress as an overall body, but they *do* approve of their own individual representatives. Really the relevant statistics would be the individual approval and re-election rates.
My little circle of friends and I have varying degrees of education, which we use to different levels.
I went to college on a scholarship, but then decided that my chosen career path wasn't for me. Right out of college I could have realistically (in 2004) been making $90,000 per year, and probably $110,000 today. The job sucked though, even though it was white collar. My chosen career path was plagued by layoffs and downsizing, I would have had to move across the country frequently (I hate moving), and working 70 hours per week is exhausting. I decided to throw it all away and become a Restaurant manager. Sure, I took almost a 60% pay cut, but I also have steady income and no worries about being laid-off. I haven't had to move in 10 years, I live in an area with a VERY low cost of living, and my schedule meshes so well with my wife that we don't need daycare.
What I'm saying is, gross income isn't the best indicator on value of life. Sure I might be making less, but I'm also spending less. The difference in net worth is to me worthless compared to the extra time I have for family, friends, and hobbies.
I compare this to my friends. One has a totally worthless masters degree and ended up working a desk job for her parents' business, which she could have done with a month's worth of on the job training. One friend busted his but getting a graphic design degree and was still trying to pay off the college debt 7 years after graduating, which I'm guessing makes him poorer than had he not gotten the degree. One friend never went to college and is making an average living as a parts manager for a concrete ornament maker.
~1.5k
