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The real setup time with these other games are the map tiles. I still have not found a great way to store and then quickly set it up on the fly during sessions. Definitely an issue myself and many others have.

The tokens and setup in x wing, armada, and now Runewars though is a breeze compared to games like 40k, WFB, etc... the trick is to store them in some sort of compartmentalized storage system. You pull it out for a game, grab components as you need, and throw them back in when you're done. Assuming you ah e your list/ships ready to go before a game, it takes moments.

The sheer number of tokens that FFG traditionally provides is maybe daunting sometimes, but in reality many games use just as many conditions and modifiers. Virtually no game is exempt of these and It just happens that FFG provides suitable counters in their games instead of leaving it to the players to make do with pieces of paper, third party tokens or just remembering them if they're something like a short term bonus which would be resolved immediately.

 Pacific wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It's more the visual intrusion of having all those things on the tabletop that's the issue for me. It's a problem (IMO) with X-Wing, moreso with Armada and now this.

I think that the sight of collected Star Destroyers, Rebel frigates and the like on a star-map type board is one of the most impressive looking things that you'll see in wargaming! It's easily achievable as well with the pre-paints, and contrasts with the hordes of unpainted plastics and poor quality terrain that you seem to see as a mainstay on a lot of other gaming boards (although realise this probably changes from place to place).

I don't think having some tokens/cards on the board creates that much of an impact, if the rest of the game looks so damned fine (and it helps facilitate a solid game mechanic). Although, again realise this is a personal thing!

Like I said, it's a personal issue; it's the counters, and the dials, and (especially) the thick bases with all those little wheels on them. Compare that to, say, Full Thrust, where the ship is on a black or clear base. It's not a problem for everyone, but it is for me. As is the fact that one heavy cruiser, some escorts and half a dozen fighter wings isn't a proper "armada".

 CoreCommander wrote:
The sheer number of tokens that FFG traditionally provides is maybe daunting sometimes, but in reality many games use just as many conditions and modifiers. Virtually no game is exempt of these and It just happens that FFG provides suitable counters in their games instead of leaving it to the players to make do with pieces of paper, third party tokens or just remembering them if they're something like a short term bonus which would be resolved immediately.

This appears to be the case for many of the tokens, and at least they don't have some giant "first player" token like FFG likes to wedge into all their games. Something like Warmachine requires focus tokens and, until recently, didn't include any (get your own damn glass beads, you peasant). So, FFG is providing a service that other mini games don't, while simultaneously being criticized for it.

That being said, the movement templates and unit dials just seem unwieldy to me, and take up a lot of room. Maybe that's why the field is only 6x3'' instead of 6'x4' - that extra foot on your table is for storing tokens.

 Sqorgar wrote:
Maybe that's why the field is only 6x3'' instead of 6'x4' - that extra foot on your table is for storing tokens.

I wondered myself if this smaller size might be intentional for game paraphenalia. No so much for tokens, -which are easily stored in a plastic organizer- but for the unit and upgrade cards which could easily stretch a good portion of the length of the table.

I saw some X-wing (or was it Armada..) games at Adepticon with this sort of table-long card layouts.

 Eilif wrote:

I wondered myself if this smaller size might be intentional for game paraphenalia. No so much for tokens, -which are easily stored in a plastic organizer- but for the unit and upgrade cards which could easily stretch a good portion of the length of the table.

The most likely answer is that they did it because they sell 3'x3' neoprene mats, and you can put both of them together to make the 6'x3' field. They've made a bunch of playmats for their other games, and I don't think any of them are larger than 3' in any direction. Could be a limitation of their printing process, or it may be a shipping thing, since Miniature Market charges separate shipping for large playmats?

In slightly related news, they announced a new expansion for Terrinoth-based Runebound, so my bitter animosity towards Runewars has shrunk a bit. A rising tide raises all boats? Maybe there is hope for more BattleLore too.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

I wondered myself if this smaller size might be intentional for game paraphenalia. No so much for tokens, -which are easily stored in a plastic organizer- but for the unit and upgrade cards which could easily stretch a good portion of the length of the table.

The most likely answer is that they did it because they sell 3'x3' neoprene mats, and you can put both of them together to make the 6'x3' field. They've made a bunch of playmats for their other games, and I don't think any of them are larger than 3' in any direction. Could be a limitation of their printing process, or it may be a shipping thing, since Miniature Market charges separate shipping for large playmats?

In slightly related news, they announced a new expansion for Terrinoth-based Runebound, so my bitter animosity towards Runewars has shrunk a bit. A rising tide raises all boats? Maybe there is hope for more BattleLore too.

Yeah, that could well be the reason for the size. I'll probably have enough terrain on the table that 4x5 might be a better size, but I'm flexible.

It would be nice if FFG continued to support all the games that are set in Terrinoth. I'm sure they could get some crossover benefit that way. I bought all the Battletlore 2nd edition stuff except for the neutral mini boosters just in case, but even with Runewars on my plate, I'd probably buy more Battlelore stuff if it comes out. Some would disagree but the two games fill very different niches in my gaming.

FFG put up a Waiqar the Undying army painting guide, which focuses exclusively on the Army Painter quickshade dipping meathod. I've never tried dipping myself, but I understand you can get decent results quickly - this may be FFG's secret plan to win over boardgamers to the painting lifestyle. It's not a bad plan, honestly.

I used to dip. It works well and is basically a heavy wash. Really the main reason I stopped was that I found it messy and that applying a wash with a brush gave me better control and less mess, but some of my dipped models actually look better than some of my early washes.

Yes I used to think the time you had to spend cleaning up after a dip meant that you may as well just apply with a brush in the first place.

And the whole flicking the miniature off after dipping.. that can easily cause problems

You can also brush on the dip (varnish), but that's what I do with my washes, anyway. ObPlug: Army Painter will have its Quickshade Ink wash set increased by three washes with their June 2017 release!

Also, BGG has a review of RW: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1760629/review-games-target-audience

I'm starting to think (shoulda noticed earlier!) that FFG isn't going after the Dakka hobby miniatures market, which demands high-quality sculpts and paints to at least tabletop, but usually higher. They're going after tabletop-only painters, or those who don't care for the painting hobby. Which is reasonable, considering how crowded the hobby miniatures market already is.

However, of course, CMON's GoT miniatures are coming soon, and, with their colored unpainted miniatures that don't need assembly, may cater *more* to this niche-within-a-niche-within-a-niche audience.

The brush dip method is more than just a wash. If used properly and over lighter under colors it will:
-Darken the recesses
-Gives a pseudo highlight effect as it falls away from the higher edges.
-the "shade" effect which is a function of the thickness of the polyurethane settling over the model.
-Adds a layer of polyurethane that is a thicker than a regular varnish adding a strong layer of protection.

Basically you can get tabletop-quality results in a fraction of the time. If you want to know more, here's a tutorial I put together. It's not as nice as layerd highlghts and washes, but it's saves alot of time and gets far better results than just a wash.
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2012/01/with-liberty-and-brush-dipping-for-all.html

I brush-dip pretty much everything but I'm considering trying the emersion method for the 32 Daqan Spearmen that are on my desk now.

As to the style and paintability of the figures I think FFG have taken a rather smart approach but I'll have a blog post up shortly with my thoughts on that.

If you paint to put stuff on a table quickly and effectively...dip is fantastic. If you want to spend a lot of time painting to a higher standard, don't bother with it.

Here's a step-by-step example of using it on simple (sometimes poor looking) block painting. I can do a squad in an evening pretty easily. I could achieve an equal or better result painting everything meticulously by hand...but screw that noise.

http://myminiaturemischief.blogspot.com/2016/06/step-by-step-spiders.html

ced1106 wrote:

I'm starting to think (shoulda noticed earlier!) that FFG isn't going after the Dakka hobby miniatures market, which demands high-quality sculpts and paints to at least tabletop, but usually higher. They're going after tabletop-only painters, or those who don't care for the painting hobby. Which is reasonable, considering how crowded the hobby miniatures market already is.

Maybe they are going after the Dakka market. I'm already invested in two miniature games, and with how long it takes me to paint the models, I really can't add anything new to my plate. But a miniatures game with miniatures that I don't love and don't want to lavish with special attention painting every detail - a bunch of miniatures I don't feel guilty for half assing, basically - well, maybe I can find the time for that.

Runewars just won't be a hardcore miniature gamer's primary game. It just lacks a bunch of things that the bigger games have (monthly releases, variety, quality, fandom magazines, novels, etc). But maybe it isn't trying to be a miniature gamer's primary game. Maybe it is happy with being a third or fourth game, hoping that elevating a larger board game audience can make up for the lowered enthusiasm and popularity by the Dakka crowd. The Dakka crowd makes the game look good, even when half assing it, which makes the board gamers look up to the game and its hobby possibilities (while not greatly participating).

I'm worried that FFG will abandon it prematurely (as they have with some of their other games that I loved) and I'm concerned that it will be closer on the spectrum to Warmachine (more board game than miniature game, with flat terrain and unpainted figures being used by hyper competitive players who find the hobby element an inconvenience to min-max list building). That being said, just the idea that the game doesn't have to be a chore because I don't have to care as much... man, does that make me shallow?

In case no one mentioned it yet, FFG announced a new army for the game.

They look like wood elves.

 Sqorgar wrote:

ced1106 wrote:

I'm starting to think (shoulda noticed earlier!) that FFG isn't going after the Dakka hobby miniatures market, which demands high-quality sculpts and paints to at least tabletop, but usually higher. They're going after tabletop-only painters, or those who don't care for the painting hobby. Which is reasonable, considering how crowded the hobby miniatures market already is.

Maybe they are going after the Dakka market. I'm already invested in two miniature games, and with how long it takes me to paint the models, I really can't add anything new to my plate. But a miniatures game with miniatures that I don't love and don't want to lavish with special attention painting every detail - a bunch of miniatures I don't feel guilty for half assing, basically - well, maybe I can find the time for that.
...
...
That being said, just the idea that the game doesn't have to be a chore because I don't have to care as much... man, does that make me shallow?

This is an old topic you're brushing there. Miniatures in miniature games were meant to be game pieces in the beginning, but with the advances in technology and the ability to cram more detail into a miniature (provided you make it big enough for it to count) some companies (company,,,) have made the push to transform some gamers into atleast part modellers. This way they can stay interested in the new and obligatory better quality releases which every company must put out in order to stay alive. It is no longer enough to just paint your minies for a reasonable period of time, these days care must be taken to highlight every detail of a miniature otherwise you're basically losing your investment in expensive high detail miniatures... which is basically what all companies are striving for today. If you're going to put intentionally something of inferiour quality, but cheaper and easier to put together, you're going to get pointed at and publicly shamed. I know that I can't be the only one that hasn't been able to paint something in a given time window just because I felt guilty that I'm not doing the miniature justice (like I'm obliged to an inanimate object somehow....).

If FFG are going that route, against the current flow, I'm all for it (the prices kind of stymie their effort though...)

If you're interested further in the topic of being slave to your miniatures I recommend reading the following two (the second one being a later and expanded version of the first). It deals with historical miniatures mostly and the main conflict is bigger vs smaller, but I found a lot of stuff that rung true for me there.
Lin 1 - plain text page
Link 2 - newer & expanded, also plain text

 Sqorgar wrote:

Runewars just won't be a hardcore miniature gamer's primary game. It just lacks a bunch of things that the bigger games have (monthly releases, variety, quality, fandom magazines, novels, etc). But maybe it isn't trying to be a miniature gamer's primary game. Maybe it is happy with being a third or fourth game, hoping that elevating a larger board game audience can make up for the lowered enthusiasm and popularity by the Dakka crowd. The Dakka crowd makes the game look good, even when half assing it, which makes the board gamers look up to the game and its hobby possibilities (while not greatly participating).

I'm worried that FFG will abandon it prematurely (as they have with some of their other games that I loved) ...

The game isn't out yet - think we should probably wait for the release and news on subsequent releases (as well as the quantity/quality of those) before commenting that it is sub-par. And obviously all the other paraphernalia that builds up around that (fan-fiction, magazines & novels etc.) will only come later - think that Infinity is only just getting around to fictions (with the Manga) and universe expansion with the forthcoming RPG, and that has had many years of being a popular game with a decent following.

 Hellfury wrote:
I actually like the aesthetic going on for the elves. There is a distinct lack of pretense there I find refreshing.

Just simple wood elves.

Good on them.

The only criticism is the same I have for everything based in terrinoth. And that is their ridiculous names for the fauna in that property. "Leonx"? Pfftt! Whatever. Just make it as obtuse and unintuitive as possible. Trust me, nobody is going to steal the names for your creations.

Have you read the name of the fourth faction? It's an even bigger worse stretch. You're absolutely right. non-intuitive tongue twisters are actually a turn-off when trying to promote a game to someone.

 Pacific wrote:

The game isn't out yet - think we should probably wait for the release and news on subsequent releases (as well as the quantity/quality of those) before commenting that it is sub-par. And obviously all the other paraphernalia that builds up around that (fan-fiction, magazines & novels etc.) will only come later - think that Infinity is only just getting around to fictions (with the Manga) and universe expansion with the forthcoming RPG, and that has had many years of being a popular game with a decent following.

Didn't say that the game was subpar (though the models don't reach the high standard of GW, Corvus Belli, or Wyrd), just that it lacked a lot of the all encompassing lifestyle elements that other miniature games have. I doubt FFG will do much with it either, as Terrinoth is almost 20 years old and the fluff is still boring as crap and FFG has far more popular games (like X-Wing and Descent), so if they were going to do a hobby magazine, they would've done it already.

(Also, Infinity had lots of fluff in the core books that accompany the rulebooks, and in the stuff like Campaign Paradiso - Terrinoth has had a dozen games and I doubt anyone outside of FFG could tell you anything other than the hero names from Descent).

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

 Hellfury wrote:
I actually like the aesthetic going on for the elves. There is a distinct lack of pretense there I find refreshing.

Just simple wood elves.

Good on them.

The only criticism is the same I have for everything based in terrinoth. And that is their ridiculous names for the fauna in that property. "Leonx"? Pfftt! Whatever. Just make it as obtuse and unintuitive as possible. Trust me, nobody is going to steal the names for your creations.

Have you read the name of the fourth faction? It's an even bigger worse stretch. You're absolutely right. non-intuitive tongue twisters are actually a turn-off when trying to promote a game to someone.

I think it has to do with experience. Over the last 30 years, I've seen a lot of games attempt to draw you in with their own distinct naming structures. But they always fail because people aren't interested in unique names. They are interested in unique and engaging backgrounds. FFG seems to think that unique names are sufficient, but they have the cart before the horse there.

Obviously some people enjoy the background of terrinoth, as I have known some rather vehement defenders. But I am of the opinion that such defense arises from bias born of consumption. Post purchase rationalization cognitive bias. Terrinoth background isn't objectively bad, but the lack of it sticking for a large portion of gamers over the past 15 years means it isn't objectively good either. And instead of FFG admitting such, they stick with it in the hopes that more people will buy into it.
It might work, but I believe there are enough casual non vocal critics to think it likely won't, especially after this length of time.

But from personal experience, I know Christian Peterson is stubborn as hell in the face of even the most gentle constructive criticism, so there will never be change for terrinoth.

Yeah, I played Descent for years and sadly never acquired a sense that the world it took place in had any identity. It was just a collection of generic tropes for the purpose of playing a game with familiar tropes.

I still haven't watched the videos, but have also not had any great desire to start this game system. Cost, quality of figs and the setting are all lost on me. But just in case anyone was ready to board this train, Miniaturemarket.com just got them today $84.99.

With the previews of the upcoming shadespire for AOS, I think I'll wait to fill my undead need.

3' by 3' and 6' by 3' fit on card game tables.

tpryan01 wrote:
3' by 3' and 6' by 3' fit on card game tables.

That's a very possible theory as well. All those shops with card tables for Mt:G players just happen to be able to accommodate Runewars.

 CoreCommander wrote:


This is an old topic you're brushing there. Miniatures in miniature games were meant to be game pieces in the beginning, but with the advances in technology and the ability to cram more detail into a miniature (provided you make it big enough for it to count) some companies (company,,,) have made the push to transform some gamers into atleast part modellers. This way they can stay interested in the new and obligatory better quality releases which every company must put out in order to stay alive. It is no longer enough to just paint your minies for a reasonable period of time, these days care must be taken to highlight every detail of a miniature otherwise you're basically losing your investment in expensive high detail miniatures... which is basically what all companies are striving for today. If you're going to put intentionally something of inferiour quality, but cheaper and easier to put together, you're going to get pointed at and publicly shamed. I know that I can't be the only one that hasn't been able to paint something in a given time window just because I felt guilty that I'm not doing the miniature justice (like I'm obliged to an inanimate object somehow....).

I am glad people are bringing this up, because I see it keeping some people out of the hobby (I hear plent of people bemoaning that their paint jobs will never look like what they see in White Dwarf, so they just don't ever get started).

The models in Runewars are just like those in WHFB - if they aren't characters, they're wound counters for units. So let's not begin to make each and every model a work of art, when you have to paint up 16 of them at a time.

I actually miss the days when the miniatures were usually metal, with one or mayyyyybe two pieces, sculpted along a relatively flat plane as required by the limits of metal casting. They didn't take hours to assemble, didn't take ages to paint, and weren't loaded up with details you aren't going to see anyway at a distance of 3-4' when they're actually on the table.

Some of the RuneWars models were a persnickety pain - the spearmen and archers mostly. But most of the skeletons were in two pieces and fit together easily, and the Rune Golem was a pleasant 10 seconds or so.

I've started an ongoing thread about my runewars blogging...
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/722712.page
but I'll update here also.
I just put up a blog post about assembly and minor conversions to the Daqan forces.
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2017/04/14/runewars-painting-the-daqan-lords-part-1-creative-assembly/

ced1106 wrote:
You can also brush on the dip (varnish), but that's what I do with my washes, anyway. ObPlug: Army Painter will have its Quickshade Ink wash set increased by three washes with their June 2017 release!

Also, BGG has a review of RW: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1760629/review-games-target-audience

I'm starting to think (shoulda noticed earlier!) that FFG isn't going after the Dakka hobby miniatures market, which demands high-quality sculpts and paints to at least tabletop, but usually higher. They're going after tabletop-only painters, or those who don't care for the painting hobby. Which is reasonable, considering how crowded the hobby miniatures market already is.

However, of course, CMON's GoT miniatures are coming soon, and, with their colored unpainted miniatures that don't need assembly, may cater *more* to this niche-within-a-niche-within-a-niche audience.

I'm a bare minimum painter and brush on the varnish instead of the dip and flick method; same results, less mess but I have to keep a supply of largish, disposable brushes about for it. RW and like games are right up my alley, more so than GW. I have zero interest in the hobby aspects of gaming and just like a good, fun game rather than buying ornate, highly detailed models.

Well, you'll be interested in this article, then!

Christian posted this FFG link to the Army Painter dip for the RW skeletons faction.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/4/12/waiqar-the-undying-army-painting-guide/

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/d5/fa/d5fad14a-b185-452d-bc44-d4d5256427ce/waiqar_the_undying_painting_guide.pdf

Can you buy just the minis?

Some of these are great. They seem a bit big for regular gw comingling, but for KoW I really like these sets.

Am pleasantly surprised by how nice they look with the army painter guide - maybe they gave them such a simple, cartoony design with quick painting techniques in mind?

With such small unit sizes and army painter stuff, you could probably paint the whole starting force in like 2 hours or so.