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 Selym wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Selym wrote:
I'm attacking C:SM players

Please don't. Rule #1 is a thing even if you do not like a playerbase.

Think of the ULTRAMARINES!

How can we play fluffily if they keep getting borked by lasguns?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gree wrote:
I must admit still being rather puzzled by Codex power tiers. I mean, I play Space Marines and Necrons and I repeatedly lose to Chaos Space Marines. It seems to me that player skill and luck play a big factor.

It's anecdotal but I have a hard time reconciling what I read online with actual games I witness. It's not even me, I've seen this same Chaos player beat a Necron Decurion just last week at my gaming store.

What did the necrons use, and what did Chaos use?

Dude, it's a game. Show a little tact and decency.

Wanting a better written Space Marine codex isn't a bad thing. Tactical Marines are still garbage without you buying 6 more Rhinos and even then the build for them is Centurion Star.

 Selym wrote:
What did the necrons use, and what did Chaos use?

IIRC the Necron player had a Decurion with some Canoptek Wraiths and some Monoliths. I was playing another game at the time, but that's what I remember, especially the part where he was complaining about losing an entire unit of Canoptek Wraiths to shooting. I fought the Chaos player earlier with my Necrons and I think he was still using the same list of:

Terminator Sorcerer
Chaos Lord with Daemonheart on Bike
2 Termicide Units
Noise Marines
Havocs with Missile Launchers
2 units of Raptors
1 unit of Cultists
1 Heldrake

Necrons should roll that list easily. Sometimes things go wrong.

Martel732 wrote:
Necrons should roll that list easily. Sometimes things go wrong.

That's true. At least for me though, I have a pretty consistent loss record against his Chaos Marines. I've tried everything from Gravstars to Librarius Conclaves and I just can't seem to beat his Chaos Marines. I've played a ton of games with him and I've only ever won twice against him. I'm not sure if he's really that good a player or is it something with me.

 Selym wrote:
How dare armies like IG get both cheap units AND really powerful ap3 spam?

And how DARE they bring more than two tanks, in fact they should be limited to one tank and no more than one Special Weapon per every four sections! And Lasguns are OP - they need to be S2 with a 12" range!

Gree wrote:

 Selym wrote:
What did the necrons use, and what did Chaos use?

IIRC the Necron player had a Decurion with some Canoptek Wraiths and some Monoliths. I was playing another game at the time, but that's what I remember, especially the part where he was complaining about losing an entire unit of Canoptek Wraiths to shooting. I fought the Chaos player earlier with my Necrons and I think he was still using the same list of:

Terminator Sorcerer
Chaos Lord with Daemonheart on Bike
2 Termicide Units
Noise Marines
Havocs with Missile Launchers
2 units of Raptors
1 unit of Cultists
1 Heldrake

Honestly that list is super bad. I'm not sure what it could possibly be on your end.

The sum total of shooting in that CSM list should struggle to destroy a unit of Decurion Harvest Wraiths over the course of an entire game .

 Selym wrote:
Think of the ULTRAMARINES!

How can we play fluffily if they keep getting borked by lasguns?

 master of ordinance wrote:
And how DARE they bring more than two tanks, in fact they should be limited to one tank and no more than one Special Weapon per every four sections! And Lasguns are OP - they need to be S2 with a 12" range!

If you are not going to post anything meaningful, don't post.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The sum total of shooting in that CSM list should struggle to destroy a unit of Decurion Harvest Wraiths over the course of an entire game .

And yet it happened according to the Necron player.

In fact when I played him earlier I lost my entire unit of 5 Canoptek Wraiths to him in a single shooting phase. (Though I was not playing a Decurion) Enfeeble weakened them to T4 and a mass of shots from the Noise Marines, Raptors and the Oblits finished them off.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Think of the ULTRAMARINES!

How can we play fluffily if they keep getting borked by lasguns?

 master of ordinance wrote:
And how DARE they bring more than two tanks, in fact they should be limited to one tank and no more than one Special Weapon per every four sections! And Lasguns are OP - they need to be S2 with a 12" range!

If you are not going to post anything meaningful, don't post.

We are just commenting on the general views from the playerbase of a certain army.

Gree wrote:
I must admit still being rather puzzled by Codex power tiers. I mean, I play Space Marines and Necrons and I repeatedly lose to Chaos Space Marines. It seems to me that player skill and luck play a big factor.

It's anecdotal but I have a hard time reconciling what I read online with actual games I witness. It's not even me, I've seen this same Chaos player beat a Necron Decurion just last week at my gaming store.

They do. I mean I tabled IG/Death watch with my BA (first time playing them in like 7 or 8 months) last night. The player I was facing was arguably more skilled than I, with a better list than I. Dont get me wrong, i played it pretty well. However if you're playing against the cards and dice in addition to your opponent there's only so much one can do.

I don't know why some posters think just because their TFG runs a certain list all players are like that. It's kind of sad really because they've essentially had their beloved hobby turned into a reason to rip on people they've never even met.

I'd put GK, BA, AM, Nids and CSM near the bottom

Orks arent as bad off as people think.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Think of the ULTRAMARINES!

How can we play fluffily if they keep getting borked by lasguns?

 master of ordinance wrote:
And how DARE they bring more than two tanks, in fact they should be limited to one tank and no more than one Special Weapon per every four sections! And Lasguns are OP - they need to be S2 with a 12" range!

If you are not going to post anything meaningful, don't post.

We are just commenting on the general views from the playerbase of a certain army.

You're missing the point. Respectful posts are respectful posts. A blanketed opinion based on a couple of buffoons at your LGS is neither informed nor respectful.

For example I don't rag on all IG players. Just the ones that wave their ignorance around like a flag.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

I don't know why some posters think just because their TFG runs a certain list all players are like that. It's kind of sad really because they've essentially had their beloved hobby turned into a reason to rip on people they've never even met.

posting gak here is about the only fun you can get put of 40k these days, unless you can find someone who will try alternate rules.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

However if you're playing against the cards and dice in addition to your opponent there's only so much one can do.

Something like that happened to me in another recent game with my Necrons.

My Lychguard with Overlord had just tanked the entire firepower of an Imperial Guard army, including 50 lasguns with Prescience, a Manticore, 3 Democharges, an Imperial Knight, and a multitude of heavy weapons with only 3 dead. The rest of the unit was prepared to charge into the massive Guard blob and essentially win me the game. They then failed their leadership test on LD 10. I re-rolled with my Warlord Trait and failed again. The Lychguard ran away and where shot to pieces in the Guard player's next turn.

 Selym wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

I don't know why some posters think just because their TFG runs a certain list all players are like that. It's kind of sad really because they've essentially had their beloved hobby turned into a reason to rip on people they've never even met.

posting gak here is about the only fun you can get put of 40k these days, unless you can find someone who will try alternate rules.

No offense man, but that doesn't even remotely sound like a community problem. Plus, that's why places like 4chans table section and spikey bits forums are a thing.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

I don't know why some posters think just because their TFG runs a certain list all players are like that. It's kind of sad really because they've essentially had their beloved hobby turned into a reason to rip on people they've never even met.

posting gak here is about the only fun you can get put of 40k these days, unless you can find someone who will try alternate rules.

No offense man, but that doesn't even remotely sound like a community problem. Plus, that's why places like 4chans table section and spikey bits forums are a thing.

Come back when you have been on the receiving end of a super friends WAAC mega formation combo power list.

Gree wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The sum total of shooting in that CSM list should struggle to destroy a unit of Decurion Harvest Wraiths over the course of an entire game .

And yet it happened according to the Necron player.

In fact when I played him earlier I lost my entire unit of 5 Canoptek Wraiths to him in a single shooting phase. (Though I was not playing a Decurion) Enfeeble weakened them to T4 and a mass of shots from the Noise Marines, Raptors and the Oblits finished them off.

On average, assuming no Decurion bonus and Enfeeble having gone off, that'll require an average of 135 BS4 S4 shots to kill 5 Wraiths. That's probably the upper limit of the entire army's killing power at that point, if it's even able to.match that, so that's still quite a feat.

With Decurion bonus and no Enfeeble it's double that, 270 BS4 S4 shots.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

I don't know why some posters think just because their TFG runs a certain list all players are like that. It's kind of sad really because they've essentially had their beloved hobby turned into a reason to rip on people they've never even met.

posting gak here is about the only fun you can get put of 40k these days, unless you can find someone who will try alternate rules.

No offense man, but that doesn't even remotely sound like a community problem. Plus, that's why places like 4chans table section and spikey bits forums are a thing.

Come back when you have been on the receiving end of a super friends WAAC mega formation combo power list.

Been there plenty of times. I don't have an axe to grind against Tau, Crons and AdMech players even of I absolutely think those armies are stupidly frustrating to play against when done WAAC.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

I don't know why some posters think just because their TFG runs a certain list all players are like that. It's kind of sad really because they've essentially had their beloved hobby turned into a reason to rip on people they've never even met.

posting gak here is about the only fun you can get put of 40k these days, unless you can find someone who will try alternate rules.

No offense man, but that doesn't even remotely sound like a community problem. Plus, that's why places like 4chans table section and spikey bits forums are a thing.

Come back when you have been on the receiving end of a super friends WAAC mega formation combo power list.

You have more fodder to feed it than a BA list.

 Vaktathi wrote:
On average, assuming no Decurion bonus and Enfeeble having gone off, that'll require an average of 135 BS4 S4 shots to kill 5 Wraiths. That's probably the upper limit of the entire army's killing power at that point, if it's even able to.match that, so that's still quite a feat.

With Decurion bonus and no Enfeeble it's double that, 270 BS4 S4 shots.

*shrugs* well that's more or less what happened. It's moments like that where I don't put any stock in Mathammer.

Although I must apologize as I remembered it was a shooting phase and an assault phase after that. 3 Wraiths got killed by shooting and another wound inflicted on one of the remaining Wraiths and the Oblits and the Raptors with the Chaos Lord charged them. The Raptors killed them before the Oblits could swing. Looking back that was pretty much the moment I lost the game, as he rushed towards my Warriors and Immortals while avoiding my Lychstar. He won by a fairly large margin in Objectives with First Blood and Linebreaker.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

I don't know why some posters think just because their TFG runs a certain list all players are like that. It's kind of sad really because they've essentially had their beloved hobby turned into a reason to rip on people they've never even met.

posting gak here is about the only fun you can get put of 40k these days, unless you can find someone who will try alternate rules.

No offense man, but that doesn't even remotely sound like a community problem. Plus, that's why places like 4chans table section and spikey bits forums are a thing.

Come back when you have been on the receiving end of a super friends WAAC mega formation combo power list.

I have played IG artilleryspam back when I still was innocent enough to believe that the 20 man CSM VotlW lists GW encourages you to play were viable, as well as melee Chosen and the like.

I got tabled and he took no real losses.

Do you feel that makes me justified to insult you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:
posting gak here is about the only fun you can get put of 40k these days

'Posting gak' is also against the forum rules. Go to 4chan or something if you just want to vent.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Gree wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The sum total of shooting in that CSM list should struggle to destroy a unit of Decurion Harvest Wraiths over the course of an entire game .

And yet it happened according to the Necron player.

In fact when I played him earlier I lost my entire unit of 5 Canoptek Wraiths to him in a single shooting phase. (Though I was not playing a Decurion) Enfeeble weakened them to T4 and a mass of shots from the Noise Marines, Raptors and the Oblits finished them off.

On average, assuming no Decurion bonus and Enfeeble having gone off, that'll require an average of 135 BS4 S4 shots to kill 5 Wraiths. That's probably the upper limit of the entire army's killing power at that point, if it's even able to.match that, so that's still quite a feat.

With Decurion bonus and no Enfeeble it's double that, 270 BS4 S4 shots.

I knew CSM was in a bad place, but that's just stunning.

You just can't win a game like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gree wrote:


*shrugs* well that's more or less what happened. It's moments like that where I don't put any stock in Mathammer.

Mathammer works out the statistical odds of something happening. It's incredibly unlikely to roll 20 D6's and come up with nothing but sixes, but ask around enough, and someone here has probably done it at least once due to the sheer number of dice we roll. But the fact that such results are possible does not mean you can rely on them being a thing - especially when the exact opposite result is just as likely.

In terms of game balance, if something's odds of occurring are less than 1/1000, you can count it as impossible.

 Selym wrote:
Mathammer works out the statistical odds of something happening. It's incredibly unlikely to roll 20 D6's and come up with nothing but sixes, but ask around enough, and someone here has probably done it at least once due to the sheer number of dice we roll. But the fact that such results are possible does not mean you can rely on them being a thing - especially when the exact opposite result is just as likely.

In terms of game balance, if something's odds of occurring are less than 1/1000, you can count it as impossible.

Of course I recognize my story is anecdotal and how that relates. That being said I still have no stock in Mathhammer, given my own experiences as a 40k player. I put more stock in player skill and luck than anything else.

I mean, according to everyone here, I should have curbstomped my Chaos opponent. Yet the exact opposite happened. I'm just trying to wrap my head around it.

 master of ordinance wrote:


We are just commenting on the general views from the playerbase of a certain army.

You do understand you're making a bad name for yourself in the process, right? And by logical extension of what you're doing, a bad name for Guard players as your comments will inevitably be associated with the army you play and mention often.

There are annoying players for every faction. Best not to paint them all with the broadest brush in your arsenal.

 Blacksails wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:


We are just commenting on the general views from the playerbase of a certain army.

You do understand you're making a bad name for yourself in the process, right? And by logical extension of what you're doing, a bad name for Guard players as your comments will inevitably be associated with the army you play and mention often.

There are annoying players for every faction. Best not to paint them all with the broadest brush in your arsenal.

And yet I have yet to personally meet anyone who primarily uses C:SM that wasn't a dick about it.

Gree wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Mathammer works out the statistical odds of something happening. It's incredibly unlikely to roll 20 D6's and come up with nothing but sixes, but ask around enough, and someone here has probably done it at least once due to the sheer number of dice we roll. But the fact that such results are possible does not mean you can rely on them being a thing - especially when the exact opposite result is just as likely.

In terms of game balance, if something's odds of occurring are less than 1/1000, you can count it as impossible.

Of course I recognize my story is anecdotal and how that relates. That being said I still have no stock in Mathhammer, given my own experiences as a 40k player. I put more stock in player skill and luck than anything else.

I mean, according to everyone here, I should have curbstomped my Chaos opponent. Yet the exact opposite happened. I'm just trying to wrap my head around it.

Mathhammer is absolutely correct, but there are statistical anomalies. The Wraith thing is quite a doozy, though.

Gree wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
On average, assuming no Decurion bonus and Enfeeble having gone off, that'll require an average of 135 BS4 S4 shots to kill 5 Wraiths. That's probably the upper limit of the entire army's killing power at that point, if it's even able to.match that, so that's still quite a feat.

With Decurion bonus and no Enfeeble it's double that, 270 BS4 S4 shots.

*shrugs* well that's more or less what happened. It's moments like that where I don't put any stock in Mathammer.

Mathhammer will give you an average, the most likely outcome from which to form a baseline to make decisions from, it wont ever predict exactly what *will* happen. It's possible for 5 basic Guardsmen to slay those 5 Wraiths in a single round of shooting, but the math tells you that you that you shouldn't expect that outcome.

Taking advantagr of the odds the mathammer gives you is what makes players good, its what informs decisionmaking, consciously or not.

Although I must apologize as I remembered it was a shooting phase and an assault phase after that. 3 Wraiths got killed by shooting and another wound inflicted on one of the remaining Wraiths and the Oblits and the Raptors with the Chaos Lord charged them. The Raptors killed them before the Oblits could swing. Looking back that was pretty much the moment I lost the game, as he rushed towards my Warriors and Immortals while avoiding my Lychstar. He won by a fairly large margin in Objectives with First Blood and Linebreaker.

that sounds much more plausible and I probably should have gathered that but even then thats a majority of the army being focused onto a single, non-optimized unit, and such killing power concentration onto such a small portion of an opponents army often has major drawbacks.

 Selym wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Gree wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The sum total of shooting in that CSM list should struggle to destroy a unit of Decurion Harvest Wraiths over the course of an entire game .

And yet it happened according to the Necron player.

In fact when I played him earlier I lost my entire unit of 5 Canoptek Wraiths to him in a single shooting phase. (Though I was not playing a Decurion) Enfeeble weakened them to T4 and a mass of shots from the Noise Marines, Raptors and the Oblits finished them off.

On average, assuming no Decurion bonus and Enfeeble having gone off, that'll require an average of 135 BS4 S4 shots to kill 5 Wraiths. That's probably the upper limit of the entire army's killing power at that point, if it's even able to.match that, so that's still quite a feat.

With Decurion bonus and no Enfeeble it's double that, 270 BS4 S4 shots.

I knew CSM was in a bad place, but that's just stunning.

You just can't win a game like that.

I think this is a case of whoever wrote the Necron book was just a complete idiot when they *buffed* wraiths and introduced the new RP mechanic and Decurion more than CSM's being awful, however true the latter may be.

The Necron codex was the big shark jumping moment of 7E in my eyes. The power ramp up with that book was absurd.

 Selym wrote:
And yet I have yet to personally meet anyone who primarily uses C:SM that wasn't a dick about it.

I've met plenty who were perfectly normal, excellent opponents. While your personal experiences may paint C:SM as being dicks, posting on the internet and claiming all C:SM players are dicks does no good for anyone, especially peoples' opinions of you.