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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/16 21:11:50
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Fixture of Dakka
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In these kind of cases we must also adjust for socioeconomics and population dispersion. A poor man living in a bad neighborhood in LA is going to be treated differently than a middle class woman living in the rural Midwest.
Simply saying cops are inherently racist because they arrest and shoot minorities more is like saying they are also inherently sexist. After all the disparity in male to female subjects when it comes to force is actually greater than that of Black to White.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/16 22:18:45
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/16 23:31:07
Subject: Re:Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Kilkrazy wrote:but they resent being shot by the police for reaching for a licence or helping to restrain a mentally ill man while being a mental health professional.
And those cases seem to me to be rare and very unfortunate mistakes. Both those cases, Castile and Kinsley, are still under investigation and hopefully the officers, which seem to be at the very least guilty of not following procedures, are reprimanded. The problem with the theory that because black people are more likely to be drug dealers the police should stop and search them more is that the more you stop and search any group, the more crimes you will find. This leads you to stop and search that group more.
Well, firstly, as I've said previously, that's why I specifically stated murder stats, not arrest stats as I think murder stats are less likely to be biased by over policing. Blacks might be 2.5 times more likely to be shot by police, but it's not an unrelated stat that blacks are 5 times more likely to be the offender in a murder case. Is it racist to point out that crime itself is biased by race? I don't think it is anymore than it is sexist to point out that men are around 10 times more likely to be murderers than women.... it doesn't mean all men are murderers, it doesn't mean women aren't capable of murder, but it goes a way to explaining why most the people shot by police are men. I don't think anyone would suggest the police force is sexist against men when men are targeted more than women (unless it's to make stats more sensationalist, because you can say "black men" are 5 times more likely to be shot than the rest of the population where as you can only say "blacks" are 2.5 times more likely to be shot, and the former is better for click bait!). Secondly, the thing is, a lot of the time the black people shot were drug dealers, were carrying weapons illegally, were acting in a menacing way, had been previously convicted of violent crimes, etc. Obviously not all the time, but I'd suggest when you start paring back to only the cases like Kinsley and Castile, relative to the 1.1M law enforcement employees they aren't common enough to make claims of systemic racism (opposed to localised racism or simply unfortunate mistakes due to suspects being more likely to be black as well).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/16 23:34:10
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/16 23:36:14
Subject: Re:Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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AllSeeingSkink wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:but they resent being shot by the police for reaching for a licence or helping to restrain a mentally ill man while being a mental health professional.
And those cases seem to me to be rare and very unfortunate mistakes. ...
They don't seem to black people to be rare and unfortunate mistakes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/16 23:38:42
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle
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This isn't too far from where I live...
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H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
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mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/16 23:50:16
Subject: Re:Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Kilkrazy wrote:AllSeeingSkink wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:but they resent being shot by the police for reaching for a licence or helping to restrain a mentally ill man while being a mental health professional.
And those cases seem to me to be rare and very unfortunate mistakes. ... They don't seem to black people to be rare and unfortunate mistakes.
I could make a joke about education systems not teaching maths properly there but it'd probably be taken as racist The USA has 319 million people (roughly 3.6 times more than any other western nation) and 1.1 million people employed in law enforcement. Cases are rare. Walking up to a black person and shooting them will incur punishment, while I can't read the minds of the cops involved in incidents, I doubt they woke up that morning with the intention to go shoot someone just for the sake of shooting someone. Cases are unfortunate mistakes. That's why I brought up earlier that it's an important distinction to be made, are blacks actually oppressed systemically or do they only feel oppressed because they are constantly told they are oppressed. It's important to make the distinction because it's the one that tells you how you actually fix the problem instead of just using the problem to sell newspapers and get page clicks. And again huge generalisations are being made here, you say "they don't seem to black people..." but of the few african american people I know, they seem to be police supporters and vehemently against demonising the police force. The people I get pushing the other side are mostly white folk, but obviously living in Australia now biases that because people here get their information largely from sensationalist mainstream media.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/16 23:53:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/17 04:44:27
Subject: Re:Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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AllSeeingSkink wrote: while I can't read the minds of the cops involved in incidents, I doubt they woke up that morning with the intention to go shoot someone just for the sake of shooting someone.
This always struck me as a particularly feeble rationalization for police wrongdoing, but you see it again and again, like it matters at all.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/17 05:35:38
Subject: Re:Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:Walking up to a black person and shooting them will incur punishment, while I can't read the minds of the cops involved in incidents, I doubt they woke up that morning with the intention to go shoot someone just for the sake of shooting someone.
Cases are unfortunate mistakes.
If a person crashed their car it'd be an unfortunate mistake. After all, I doubt they woke up that morning and decided to crash their car. And if they repeatedly crashed the car, well then each instance would be an unfortunate mistake and we wouldn't assign malice to them, but we'd still talk about it as a problem and be amazed if they didn't think anything was wrong with their driving.
Because, very obviously, we are aware of problems and issues outside of deliberately malicious acts. And institutions that do the wrong thing repeatedly are recognised as having a problem, even when malice isn't directly involved.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/17 09:58:48
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Fixture of Dakka
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There was an instance here in Iowa about 8 years ago if I remember correctly. A cop chased a guy for a couple minutes for having a broken tail light. The guy parked under a street light on the outskirts of Harland, Iowa.
The cop rushes up to the window holding his baton in his right hand and his gun in his left (cop is right handed). As he swings the baton at the truck's window his gun goes off shooting the guy in the head with a 12-year old daughter in the passenger seat.
The officer initially claimed the gun "accidentally" discharged. However, when he went to trial he claimed it was self defense as he mistook a lit cigarette and a cell phone for a weapon. Driver's hands were in the air.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/17 10:12:49
Subject: Re:Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Ouze wrote:AllSeeingSkink wrote: while I can't read the minds of the cops involved in incidents, I doubt they woke up that morning with the intention to go shoot someone just for the sake of shooting someone. This always struck me as a particularly feeble rationalization for police wrongdoing, but you see it again and again, like it matters at all.
Well it's a good thing I didn't use it as a rationalisation for police wrong doing then isn't it! All I'm saying is call a spade a fething spade. Don't use rare and unfortunate circumstances to try and paint a picture of a systemic problem. Automatically Appended Next Post: sebster wrote:And if they repeatedly crashed the car, well then each instance would be an unfortunate mistake and we wouldn't assign malice to them, but we'd still talk about it as a problem and be amazed if they didn't think anything was wrong with their driving.
Yeah except apples and oranges. And I don't think I ever said we shouldn't talk about it as a problem, I just think we need to identify the problem with facts and come to realistic conclusions on what the biggest problems are and how to fix them. I mean, I think the biggest problems are that the cops shoot anyone at all regardless of race and that a black person is 5 times more likely to be a murderer than a white person (after all, more people are killed at the hands of civilians than police by more than an order of magnitude). The first problem is a tough one in the US as long as large portion of the population is armed I fully expect the police to either intentionally or accidentally shoot citizens at a higher rate than other western countries because cops are going to feel the need to defend themselves and are going to both make mistakes and be put in situations where they have no good out. The 2nd one is also a tough one and revolves around having isolated black communities with poor socio-economic situations. Automatically Appended Next Post: cuda1179 wrote: There was an instance here in Iowa about 8 years ago if I remember correctly. A cop chased a guy for a couple minutes for having a broken tail light. The guy parked under a street light on the outskirts of Harland, Iowa. The cop rushes up to the window holding his baton in his right hand and his gun in his left (cop is right handed). As he swings the baton at the truck's window his gun goes off shooting the guy in the head with a 12-year old daughter in the passenger seat. The officer initially claimed the gun "accidentally" discharged. However, when he went to trial he claimed it was self defense as he mistook a lit cigarette and a cell phone for a weapon. Driver's hands were in the air.
So what happened in the end? What did the court find? Was the cop found to be in the wrong, failed to follow procedures, etc. and if so was he appropriately punished?
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/08/17 10:26:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/17 19:36:43
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:All I'm saying is call a spade a fething spade. Don't use rare and unfortunate circumstances to try and paint a picture of a systemic problem.
What? But if they can't do that then their whole narrative is lost! How are we suppoosed to perpetuate victimization and capitalize on it for votes?
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SickSix's Silver Skull WIP thread
My Youtube Channel
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking. = Epic First Post.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/17 20:59:14
Subject: Re:Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Fixture of Dakka
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:[]So what happened in the end? What did the court find? Was the cop found to be in the wrong, failed to follow procedures, etc. and if so was he appropriately punished?
I had to look up the case. The jury found the officer not guilty of involuntary manslaughter, but he was fired from the department anyway for failure to abide by regulations. The daughter ended up getting a settlement, I think it was only in the 5-figure range.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/18 22:46:04
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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At least the police have a hero who has taken up their case!
https://thinkprogress.org/white-supremacist-stabs-black-man-to-avenge-police-fc746e517a84#.ky0mynw7q
“At one point he stated that he knew we couldn’t hurt the black groups on the street so he wanted to let us know that he takes care of them for us,” police wrote. “That he is able to fight those fights and will continue the fight against all of the Black Lives Matters people.”
The suspect, who told police he’d done time at the Washington State Penitentiary, also informed them that he wanted to attend a Donald Trump rally to continue “stomping out more of the Black Lives Matter group.”
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/19 11:49:08
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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He's not the hero we want, but he's not the hero we deserve.
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DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/19 12:29:39
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Martial Arts Fiday
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No one deserves Stupid of that magnitude.
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"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
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Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
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Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/19 12:46:50
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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Umm, he is exactly the kind of guy police are likely to shoot.
If you think white supremacists have any love for the police, you may want to try again. It was just an excuse so he could assault some black people. He even said as much.
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-James
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/19 12:49:35
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Sheffield, City of University and Northern-ness
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d-usa wrote:At least the police have a hero who has taken up their case!
https://thinkprogress.org/white-supremacist-stabs-black-man-to-avenge-police-fc746e517a84#.ky0mynw7q
“At one point he stated that he knew we couldn’t hurt the black groups on the street so he wanted to let us know that he takes care of them for us,” police wrote. “That he is able to fight those fights and will continue the fight against all of the Black Lives Matters people.”
The suspect, who told police he’d done time at the Washington State Penitentiary, also informed them that he wanted to attend a Donald Trump rally to continue “stomping out more of the Black Lives Matter group.”
I am shocked, shocked I say, that he is a Trump supporter.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/19 15:01:27
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Fixture of Dakka
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Goliath wrote: d-usa wrote:At least the police have a hero who has taken up their case!
https://thinkprogress.org/white-supremacist-stabs-black-man-to-avenge-police-fc746e517a84#.ky0mynw7q
“At one point he stated that he knew we couldn’t hurt the black groups on the street so he wanted to let us know that he takes care of them for us,” police wrote. “That he is able to fight those fights and will continue the fight against all of the Black Lives Matters people.”
The suspect, who told police he’d done time at the Washington State Penitentiary, also informed them that he wanted to attend a Donald Trump rally to continue “stomping out more of the Black Lives Matter group.”
I am shocked, shocked I say, that he is a Trump supporter.
Both sides have their fringe morons. Or do we need to pull out the video of the Obama supporter advocating for "killing all the cracker babies"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/19 15:07:45
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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cuda1179 wrote: Goliath wrote: d-usa wrote:At least the police have a hero who has taken up their case!
https://thinkprogress.org/white-supremacist-stabs-black-man-to-avenge-police-fc746e517a84#.ky0mynw7q
“At one point he stated that he knew we couldn’t hurt the black groups on the street so he wanted to let us know that he takes care of them for us,” police wrote. “That he is able to fight those fights and will continue the fight against all of the Black Lives Matters people.”
The suspect, who told police he’d done time at the Washington State Penitentiary, also informed them that he wanted to attend a Donald Trump rally to continue “stomping out more of the Black Lives Matter group.”
I am shocked, shocked I say, that he is a Trump supporter.
Both sides have their fringe morons. Or do we need to pull out the video of the Obama supporter advocating for "killing all the cracker babies"
Do we have one of an Obama supporter stabbing a white guy for him?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/19 15:09:17
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Probably not, but we did recently have a BLM supporter cap a bunch of cops in Dallas.
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/19 15:20:45
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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CptJake wrote:Probably not, but we did recently have a BLM supporter cap a bunch of cops in Dallas.
So far we went from "white supremacist Trump supporter stabbed black people for the cops" to "there Is a video of an Obama supporter talking about killing cracker babies" to "Dallas sniper was a BLM supporter".
But do we have an Obama supporter who is a race supremacist killing members of the other race for some other group yet?
Because if we are just going to name random instances of interracial killings I'm sure we can google "[race] killing [other race]" all day.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/19 16:13:33
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Sheffield, City of University and Northern-ness
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cuda1179 wrote:Both sides have their fringe morons. Or do we need to pull out the video of the Obama supporter advocating for "killing all the cracker babies"
By all means, please do provide this video rather than just saying that it possibly exists somewhere in order to try and make a point.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/19 16:14:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/19 16:21:52
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Goliath wrote: cuda1179 wrote:Both sides have their fringe morons. Or do we need to pull out the video of the Obama supporter advocating for "killing all the cracker babies"
By all means, please do provide this video rather than just saying that it possibly exists somewhere in order to try and make a point.
It was from 2012 I think, but it's not unusual rhetoric from the New Black Panther Party.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/new-black-panther-party
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/22 00:25:33
Subject: Re:Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Meanwhile, we can all rest easy that someone finally decided to stand up to BLM: "We're not out here to instigate or start any problems," Reed said. "Obviously we're exercising our Second Amendment rights but that's because we have to defend ourselves. Their organizations and their people are shooting people based on the color of their skin. We're not. We definitely will defend ourselves, but we're not out here to start any problems." ... Reed said the flags were being flown as a symbol of Southern heritage. "It has nothing to do with racism on our part," Reed said. "We're proud to be Southern. It has all to do about heritage, nothing to do with hate." And in case you are like me and don't know the significance of " 14 words", I took the liberty to google it: "14 Words" is a reference to the most popular white supremacist slogan in the world: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children." The slogan was coined by David Lane, a member of the white supremacist terrorist group known as The Order (Lane died in prison in 2007). The term reflects the primary white supremacist worldview in the late 20th and early 21st centuries: that unless immediate action is taken, the white race is doomed to extinction by an alleged "rising tide of color" purportedly controlled and manipulated by Jews. Edit: And for the phoenix symbol on the big banner: The Aryan Renaissance Society is a small but long-lived white supremacist group that has resembled both a racist skinhead group and a prison clique at times. It has had members from a variety of places, but many came from Texas and New Jersey. Its logo is a phoenix image superimposed with a lightning bolt and a runic symbol.[/quote[ (Posting in this thread rather than starting another since we already talked about BLM here)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/22 00:29:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/22 00:28:40
Subject: Re:Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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I have no idea why you're assuming these guys are racist.
I think the most reasonable assumption is that these guys are into historical wargames, and want to get a tabletop game going. They have Confederate armies and they're looking for Union players.
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lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/22 00:48:01
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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That one chick has some really poor trigger discipline. Folks like that are scary. Negligent discharge waiting to happen.
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/22 00:59:20
Subject: Re:Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Well, yeah, of course one is apples and one is oranges. That's how analogies work, you compare two things that aren't the same to find similarities that will reveal information about one or both. And I don't think I ever said we shouldn't talk about it as a problem, I just think we need to identify the problem with facts and come to realistic conclusions on what the biggest problems are and how to fix them. "Cases are rare." "Cases are unfortunate mistakes." "are blacks actually oppressed systemically or do they only feel oppressed because they are constantly told they are oppressed." Your last post did everything it could to minimise this as an issue. It's good that you've changed your mind, but don't pretend you haven't and then blame other people for having taken you at your originaly argument as face value the first time around. As to the rest of your post - yeah this is largely an issue of an armed US making cops more likely to feel they need to use lethal force, combined with issues of poverty and social breakdown. On top of that you can add a long history of non-punishment for shootings, and institutionalised protection of policemen. I agree with all of those things, and agree with your assessment that it is a very difficult issue to solve. However, the reality remains that these are social failings that produce a death toll every year, and so society needs to work at whatever it can to reduce the problem. Automatically Appended Next Post: CptJake wrote:Probably not, but we did recently have a BLM supporter cap a bunch of cops in Dallas. And many people were quite quick to point out that attack showed that BLM did have an issue with extremism. The mainstream of the movement may not want any kind of violence, but when they use rhetoric that incites the fringes of their movement, and those people in turn make more extreme rhetoric, then that can often lead to violence and extreme acts. This doesn't discredit the movement entirely, but it does say something about the overall movement that is willing to inflame the issue knowing full well that it might lead to violence from the fringe.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/22 01:21:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/22 01:30:05
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard
Catskills in NYS
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CptJake wrote:That one chick has some really poor trigger discipline. Folks like that are scary. Negligent discharge waiting to happen.
It was a great picture of what no to do. I've never fired a gun (besides a bb) in my life and even I noticed it.
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Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote:Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote:Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens BaronIveagh wrote:Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/22 01:31:06
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Co'tor Shas wrote: CptJake wrote:That one chick has some really poor trigger discipline. Folks like that are scary. Negligent discharge waiting to happen.
It was a great picture of what no to do. I've never fired a gun (besides a bb) in my life and even I noticed it.
They had a lot of pictures, but I just had to include that one in the highlight reel.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/22 13:06:37
Subject: Another shooting, another riot... this time in Milwaukee.
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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Co'tor Shas wrote: CptJake wrote:That one chick has some really poor trigger discipline. Folks like that are scary. Negligent discharge waiting to happen.
It was a great picture of what no to do.
On so many levels.....
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-James
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