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 Pouncey wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?

That would be a gross and deliberate violation of the Decree Passive. As a rival Inquisitor, I might take it upon myself to second a number of Space Marines, Navy and Guard assets to destroy that "rogue" Eccelesarcy force, and bring their leaders to summary justice.

Correct.

Now realize that completely practical power armor, especially with a helmet on, means Sisters of Battle would be easily mistaken for men. And that many people in the Imperium have really, really bad eyesight due to poor medical care.

That's a rather gross error on your part to suggest that just because you can't see their face makes them male.

If the SOB armour is sufficiently different in appearance to SM armour, in that it is instantly recognisable as belonging to the SOB, what is the problem?
And note - it doesn't need to look feminine to stand out as different.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


If the SOB armour is sufficiently different in appearance to SM armour, in that it is instantly recognisable as belonging to the SOB, what is the problem?
And note - it doesn't need to look feminine to stand out as different.

Adding extra emphasis to this. This is the crux of my argument to begin with, and it is also why making the armour more functional would not destroy its identity.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Marines are very secularized monks, the imagery and language are dramatically less religious than the Sisters'. They've lost touch with their monastic roots in favour of their own distinct sci-fi persona.

Tell that to the Chaplains.

Monks don't need Chaplains. Traditionally a 'chaplain' is a cleric or lay clergyman attached to a secular institution.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


If the SOB armour is sufficiently different in appearance to SM armour, in that it is instantly recognisable as belonging to the SOB, what is the problem?
And note - it doesn't need to look feminine to stand out as different.

Adding extra emphasis to this. This is the crux of my argument to begin with, and it is also why making the armour more functional would not destroy its identity.

Counterpoint to this, though, 'feminine' and 'impractical' aren't synonymous. I hate to be a broken record but I'm going to link the Eisenkern Panzerjagers up here again: http://dreamforge-games.com/products/eisenkern-panzerjagers-10-female-tank-hunters

Feminine? Yes. Practical/sensible? Also yes.

I'd argue the Astartes Chaplain is anything but traditional.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So then, do you, or do you not oppose the redesigning of the Dark Eldar? The Scions? CSM Raptors?
Or is this an isolated case?

I don't play those factions either way, so I leave it up to their actual fans to decide whether they like the updates at all.

I also tend to choose whether I like a faction's looks or not based on what they currently look like. If I don't like them enough to play them, then I won't. I'll find a faction that works for me. In Planetside 2 I actually have a situation where I like all three of the factions for different reasons, but no one faction offers everything I actually want. So what I do there, is I have one character of each faction, and whenever I log on to play I decide which character I'm going to play based on which reason for liking them is most important to me at the moment.

I would disagree with you on that point. Looking female is not the main point. Actually saving the lives of females is.

If I saw men in the lore fighting directly for the Ecclesiarchy, I'd have an issue, as it breaks the Decree Passive. However, we're talking about women, not men. Unless you automatically assume that anyone in power armour is a man, that issue shouldn't come up if the Sisters have a recognisable armour set (Sallet Helms) and can be visually identified by armour alone as SOB.

Practical armor on humans generally makes people look more masculine. And I'm pretty sure people are going to start thinking the Ecclesiarchy might be fielding men against the law if their soldiers start actually looking like men.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Counterpoint to this, though, 'feminine' and 'impractical' aren't synonymous. I hate to be a broken record but I'm going to link the Eisenkern Panzerjagers up here again: http://dreamforge-games.com/products/eisenkern-panzerjagers-10-female-tank-hunters

Feminine? Yes. Practical/sensible? Also yes.

Oh, those are fine.

I doubt you will get Pouncey to agree to a silhoette like that, though, no matter how much gothic bling, sallet helmets and fleur de lis you apply.

Unfortunately the Eisenkerns are all but alone in their niche.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
Practical armor on humans generally makes people look more masculine.

No, it makes them look androgynous.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I'd argue the Astartes Chaplain is anything but traditional.

Then why does he do the same sort of things (and get described as filling the same role) as Priests in Guard armies/Dark Apostles to Cultists, which are chaplains in the traditional sense?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

That's a rather gross error on your part to suggest that just because you can't see their face makes them male.

If the SOB armour is sufficiently different in appearance to SM armour, in that it is instantly recognisable as belonging to the SOB, what is the problem?
And note - it doesn't need to look feminine to stand out as different.

If SoB armor doesn't make her look like a woman, even if the aesthetic is different, people are going to start wondering if there's really a woman in there at all.

I did not know it was the Chaplain's traditional role to ensure the psykers among his troops stop using their powers.
Which is the traditional Chaplain role in Warhammer I might add. The faith thing was actually a later development.

i like the bob-cut, the corsets, the boob-plate, and combat heels...
my only beef with Sisters is that my collection was stolen :(
i can't be bothered to replace it with the same metal minis again, but if they were re-released in glorious plastic, i'd be all over that...

i have no desire for the re-imagining of a great concept...
nuns with guns are badass

the only minis that i didn't like enough to buy were the Repentia...
had they looked more like the art, with all of the scrolls pinned to their flesh, i definitely would have bought them...

almost everything else was awesome...
the Canoness, did survive the loss of my collection, and she will have the crossbars filed off of her boob-plate...
those are a bit much, even for me, because they break up the clean lines...

i am a big fan of Sisters because of their aesthetic, not despite it
sad to see that the range has been so gutted, and i really hope for a reboot of the whole line in plastic...

cheers
jah

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Counterpoint to this, though, 'feminine' and 'impractical' aren't synonymous. I hate to be a broken record but I'm going to link the Eisenkern Panzerjagers up here again: http://dreamforge-games.com/products/eisenkern-panzerjagers-10-female-tank-hunters

Feminine? Yes. Practical/sensible? Also yes.

Oh, those are fine.

I doubt you will get Pouncey to agree to a silhoette like that, though, no matter how much gothic bling, sallet helmets and fleur de lis you apply.

There's a lot of work to do, I grant.

(As a sidenote 'silhouette' is an awful, awful word. Has anyone ever been able to write it down correctly the first time without resorting to a spellchecker?)

 Ashiraya wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
Practical armor on humans generally makes people look more masculine.

No, it makes them look androgynous.

By removing everything distinctly female about them, yes.

And they NEED to look like women even while wearing their battle armor.

 Pouncey wrote:
If SoB armor doesn't make her look like a woman, even if the aesthetic is different, people are going to start wondering if there's really a woman in there at all.

I think you are overestimating how triggerhappy people are over the first excuse to doubt.

SoB have been around for millennia.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

That's a rather gross error on your part to suggest that just because you can't see their face makes them male.

If the SOB armour is sufficiently different in appearance to SM armour, in that it is instantly recognisable as belonging to the SOB, what is the problem?
And note - it doesn't need to look feminine to stand out as different.

If SoB armor doesn't make her look like a woman, even if the aesthetic is different, people are going to start wondering if there's really a woman in there at all.

It doesn't really matter if people wonder at all. Nobody will draw a pistol and randomly execute Sisters. Anyone in a position to care would actually investigate things first.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I did not know it was the Chaplain's traditional role to ensure the psykers among his troops stop using their powers.
Which is the traditional Chaplain role in Warhammer I might add. The faith thing was actually a later development.

'Traditional' in the sense of the normal usage of the word 'chaplain' in the English language, not in the sense of the traditions of the setting.

 Pouncey wrote:

By removing everything distinctly female about them, yes.

And adding nothing male. No pecs, no penis, nothing.

And they NEED to look like women even while wearing their battle armor.

This is still fanfiction.

 jah-joshua wrote:
i like the bob-cut, the corsets, the boob-plate, and combat heels...
my only beef with Sisters is that my collection was stolen :(
i can't be bothered to replace it with the same metal minis again, but if they were re-released in glorious plastic, i'd be all over that...

i have no desire for the re-imagining of a great concept...
nuns with guns are badass

the only minis that i didn't like enough to buy were the Repentia...
had they looked more like the art, with all of the scrolls pinned to their flesh, i definitely would have bought them...

almost everything else was awesome...
the Canoness, did survive the loss of my collection, and she will have the crossbars filed off of her boob-plate...
those are a bit much, even for me, because they break up the clean lines...

i am a big fan of Sisters because of their aesthetic, not despite it
sad to see that the range has been so gutted, and i really hope for a reboot of the whole line in plastic...

cheers
jah

Fun fact: Despite Blanche's art, not a single Sister of Battle model actually has high heels at all. And much of the more recent art eschews the high heels entirely.

pm713 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

That's a rather gross error on your part to suggest that just because you can't see their face makes them male.

If the SOB armour is sufficiently different in appearance to SM armour, in that it is instantly recognisable as belonging to the SOB, what is the problem?
And note - it doesn't need to look feminine to stand out as different.

If SoB armor doesn't make her look like a woman, even if the aesthetic is different, people are going to start wondering if there's really a woman in there at all.

It doesn't really matter if people wonder at all. Nobody will draw a pistol and randomly execute Sisters. Anyone in a position to care would actually investigate things first.

And the Sisters aren't about to stand about and let people randomly execute them. They have a large arsenal and a fondness for firing back.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
If SoB armor doesn't make her look like a woman, even if the aesthetic is different, people are going to start wondering if there's really a woman in there at all.

I think you are overestimating how triggerhappy people are over the first excuse to doubt.

SoB have been around for millennia.

And the aesthetic they have used for millennia is very exaggeratedly feminine.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

That's a rather gross error on your part to suggest that just because you can't see their face makes them male.

If the SOB armour is sufficiently different in appearance to SM armour, in that it is instantly recognisable as belonging to the SOB, what is the problem?
And note - it doesn't need to look feminine to stand out as different.

If SoB armor doesn't make her look like a woman, even if the aesthetic is different, people are going to start wondering if there's really a woman in there at all.

It doesn't really matter if people wonder at all. Nobody will draw a pistol and randomly execute Sisters. Anyone in a position to care would actually investigate things first.

And the Sisters aren't about to stand about and let people randomly execute them. They have a large arsenal and a fondness for firing back.

Note the keyword nobody. As in the situation will not occur.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
'Traditional' in the sense of the normal usage of the word 'chaplain' in the English language, not in the sense of the traditions of the setting.

But it is not the traditional usage. Take a school chaplain for instance:

School chaplains are a fixture in religious and, more recently, secular schools.

Chaplains vary in whether they are attached to secular or religious environments.

pm713 wrote:

It doesn't really matter if people wonder at all. Nobody will draw a pistol and randomly execute Sisters. Anyone in a position to care would actually investigate things first.

This.

 Ashiraya wrote:
This is still fanfiction.

Every bit of the reasoning that goes into it only requires currently established lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

That's a rather gross error on your part to suggest that just because you can't see their face makes them male.

If the SOB armour is sufficiently different in appearance to SM armour, in that it is instantly recognisable as belonging to the SOB, what is the problem?
And note - it doesn't need to look feminine to stand out as different.

If SoB armor doesn't make her look like a woman, even if the aesthetic is different, people are going to start wondering if there's really a woman in there at all.

It doesn't really matter if people wonder at all. Nobody will draw a pistol and randomly execute Sisters. Anyone in a position to care would actually investigate things first.

Yup. They probably would check first

As a Sister of Battle Canoness, how much would you appreciate it if your armor design frequently led to Inquisitors checking all of your troops to make sure they're actually female?

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
This is still fanfiction.

Every bit of the reasoning that goes into it only requires currently established lore.

Irrelevant. That you do not have to retcon anything to add your lore does not make it canon.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
'Traditional' in the sense of the normal usage of the word 'chaplain' in the English language, not in the sense of the traditions of the setting.

But it is not the traditional usage. Take a school chaplain for instance:

School chaplains are a fixture in religious and, more recently, secular schools.

Chaplains vary in whether they are attached to secular or religious environments.

...Are you telling me students in religious schools are monks?

There's a pretty large difference of degree here.

 Pouncey wrote:
As a Sister of Battle Canoness, how much would you appreciate it if your armor design frequently led to Inquisitors checking all of your troops to make sure they're actually female?

Why doesn't this happen now? You can squeeze men into SoB armour. If they are this paranoid they would do searches already.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
As a Sister of Battle Canoness, how much would you appreciate it if your armor design frequently led to Inquisitors checking all of your troops to make sure they're actually female?

Why doesn't this happen now? You can squeeze men into SoB armour. If they are this paranoid they would do searches already.

Specifically because their current aesthetic leaves no one with any reason whatsoever to suspect that they might be men, because...

THEY. LOOK. FEMALE.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Are you telling me students in religious schools are monks?

There's a pretty large difference of degree here.

No, but apothecaries are not attached to any historic monk organisation I know of either. Nor are engineers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:


Specifically because their current aesthetic leaves no one with any reason whatsoever to suspect that they might be men, because...

THEY. LOOK. FEMALE.

So 'Imperium is dumb lol'?

Why don't they just ride in tanks and put tits on the tanks then. That should convince them.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
Practical armor on humans generally makes people look more masculine.

No, it makes them look androgynous.

By removing everything distinctly female about them, yes.

And they NEED to look like women even while wearing their battle armor.

So you are saying that the baroque power armor, the fleur de lis, the ecclesiarchy logos and robes are insufficient to mark them out as Sisters of Battle. That doesn't make a lick of sense! All members of the Imperium are indoctrinated into the Imperial Cult and thus would be at the very least familiar with the symbols of the Ecclesiarchy and their practices. And anyone in a command position would likely know what a Sororitas looks like especially if they are going to be serving in the same warzone. Further, your hypothesis fails since such a misunderstanding could be cleared up by a suspicious Imperial official asking a Sororitas to speak. Or if he is particularly inquisitive, asking her to take off her helmet. The Imperium isn't so stupid as to engage in open warfare with one of it's largest institutions over such an easily resolved misunderstanding.

I mean, if the Imperium is so stupid as you claim the Sororitas might as well paint a massive vagina on their tanks.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
'Traditional' in the sense of the normal usage of the word 'chaplain' in the English language, not in the sense of the traditions of the setting.

But it is not the traditional usage. Take a school chaplain for instance:

School chaplains are a fixture in religious and, more recently, secular schools.

Chaplains vary in whether they are attached to secular or religious environments.

Also an amusing bit at the bottom of the Wikipedia page we're both reading off of now is that 'chaplain' can refer to a priest attached to a Roman Catholic convent, which means (by a weird parallel leap of logic) the Battle Sisters would be a more theologically appropriate army to have a unit called a 'Chaplain' than the Space Marines are.

Pouncey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

That's a rather gross error on your part to suggest that just because you can't see their face makes them male.

If the SOB armour is sufficiently different in appearance to SM armour, in that it is instantly recognisable as belonging to the SOB, what is the problem?
And note - it doesn't need to look feminine to stand out as different.

If SoB armor doesn't make her look like a woman, even if the aesthetic is different, people are going to start wondering if there's really a woman in there at all.

Except - and here's the kicker - wouldn't the citizenry of the Imperium know to recognise a certain armour mark belonging to the SOB?
I mean, they can identify Mark VII Astartes Power Armour - why would they not also be told that anything wearing "this" mark is a Sister of Battle?

Plus, I'll echo the points above - the people who would care would also investigate.

Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
If SoB armor doesn't make her look like a woman, even if the aesthetic is different, people are going to start wondering if there's really a woman in there at all.

I think you are overestimating how triggerhappy people are over the first excuse to doubt.

SoB have been around for millennia.

And the aesthetic they have used for millennia is very exaggeratedly feminine.

Which is what we want to change.
Incidentally, if the armour is completely retconned, and Imperial citizens are taught that anything wearing X armour piece is a SOB, wouldn't that solve the issue?

Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
This is still fanfiction.

Every bit of the reasoning that goes into it only requires currently established lore.

And STILL fanfiction. Until that is confirmed in writing in the lore, it is not canon.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

That's a rather gross error on your part to suggest that just because you can't see their face makes them male.

If the SOB armour is sufficiently different in appearance to SM armour, in that it is instantly recognisable as belonging to the SOB, what is the problem?
And note - it doesn't need to look feminine to stand out as different.

If SoB armor doesn't make her look like a woman, even if the aesthetic is different, people are going to start wondering if there's really a woman in there at all.

It doesn't really matter if people wonder at all. Nobody will draw a pistol and randomly execute Sisters. Anyone in a position to care would actually investigate things first.

Yup. They probably would check first

As a Sister of Battle Canoness, how much would you appreciate it if your armor design frequently led to Inquisitors checking all of your troops to make sure they're actually female?

Unless, as I've said before, it is assumed anything in the armour is female.
And Astartes armour has no masculine features (bar BA). Do Inquistors pop open Space Marine suits to see if they're all male?