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considering how much complaining and fighting has been done on the topic of sister of battle and how they need a new model line, if GW ever does release new SoB codex and model line I would want them to sell out instantly and if they didn't I would want GW to say Feth it and Squat the whole line

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
Practical armor on humans generally makes people look more masculine.

No, it makes them look androgynous.

By removing everything distinctly female about them, yes.

And they NEED to look like women even while wearing their battle armor.

So you are saying that the baroque power armor, the fleur de lis, the ecclesiarchy logos and robes are insufficient to mark them out as Sisters of Battle. That doesn't make a lick of sense! All members of the Imperium are indoctrinated into the Imperial Cult and thus would be at the very least familiar with the symbols of the Ecclesiarchy and their practices. And anyone in a command position would likely know what a Sororitas looks like especially if they are going to be serving in the same warzone. Further, your hypothesis fails since such a misunderstanding could be cleared up by a suspicious Imperial official asking a Sororitas to speak. Or if he is particularly inquisitive, asking her to take off her helmet. The Imperium isn't so stupid as to engage in open warfare with one of it's largest institutions over such an easily resolved misunderstanding.

I'm pointing out that there's a good reason for the Sisters of Battle to leave everyone who sees them with no doubt whatsoever that they are actually female.

And the way to do that, is to make them look so exaggeratedly female at all times that any excessively paranoid person who suggested they might be men would be laughed at and not taken seriously whatsoever.

Which necessitates their plate armor being shaped with exaggerated female traits.

Pouncey wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
Practical armor on humans generally makes people look more masculine.

No, it makes them look androgynous.

By removing everything distinctly female about them, yes.

And they NEED to look like women even while wearing their battle armor.

So you are saying that the baroque power armor, the fleur de lis, the ecclesiarchy logos and robes are insufficient to mark them out as Sisters of Battle. That doesn't make a lick of sense! All members of the Imperium are indoctrinated into the Imperial Cult and thus would be at the very least familiar with the symbols of the Ecclesiarchy and their practices. And anyone in a command position would likely know what a Sororitas looks like especially if they are going to be serving in the same warzone. Further, your hypothesis fails since such a misunderstanding could be cleared up by a suspicious Imperial official asking a Sororitas to speak. Or if he is particularly inquisitive, asking her to take off her helmet. The Imperium isn't so stupid as to engage in open warfare with one of it's largest institutions over such an easily resolved misunderstanding.

I'm pointing out that there's a good reason for the Sisters of Battle to leave everyone who sees them with no doubt whatsoever that they are actually female.

And the way to do that, is to make them look so exaggeratedly female at all times that any excessively paranoid person who suggested they might be men would be laughed at and not taken seriously whatsoever.

Which necessitates their plate armor being shaped with exaggerated female traits.

So why haven't Space Marines got giant penises hanging off their power armour to show they're male?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Are you telling me students in religious schools are monks?

There's a pretty large difference of degree here.

No, but apothecaries are not attached to any historic monk organisation I know of either. Nor are engineers.

Nope. Historical monks provided their own doctors/apothecaries, as Space Marines do. And the techpriest is the brother in the monastery who went away to be trained in IT, apparently. That one's harder, if we're drawing historical parallels and we're assuming Space Marines are 'monks' they're definitely from a military order, and those started to get disbanded before 'engineer' as a profession existed.

Also last I checked I was asserting that monks are ordained members of the clergy and shouldn't need an ambassador from the organized clergy to help with their religious needs, thus Space Marines seem to be losing touch with their monastic side.

Also while I talk around the issue in circles according to the definition of a 'chaplain' the Techpriest is the chaplain from the Machine Cult in amongst the Space Marines, so technically Techpriests should be Chaplains and Chaplains should be something else?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
...So why haven't Space Marines got giant penises hanging off their power armour to show they're male?

Some of the codpeices are pushing it.

Also because the legal justification for the existence of Space Marines isn't gender-dependent.

"WE DEMAND AN UPDATE TO THE ONLY FEMALE MODEL LINE!"

Ok we can do that

"WE DON'T WANT THEM TO LOOK LIKE GIRLS THOUGH!"

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a predominantly female army? How would you tell as a passerby that your looking at a female army?

"TRIGGERED!"

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Except - and here's the kicker - wouldn't the citizenry of the Imperium know to recognise a certain armour mark belonging to the SOB?
I mean, they can identify Mark VII Astartes Power Armour - why would they not also be told that anything wearing "this" mark is a Sister of Battle?

Yeah, they know what Sisters of Battle look like. They're around more Sororitas than Astartes. What's your point?

Plus, I'll echo the points above - the people who would care would also investigate.

And thus inconvenience every Sister of Battle who needed to be inspected. Huge hassle.

Incidentally, if the armour is completely retconned, and Imperial citizens are taught that anything wearing X armour piece is a SOB, wouldn't that solve the issue?

Imperial Citizen A: Hey, you know those Sisters of Battle?
Imperial Citizen B: Yeah, what about them?
Imperial Citizen A: How do you even know they're a "Sister" of Battle?
Imperial Citizen B: I dunno, really. They keep their helmets on all the time.
Imperial Citizen A: You ever wonder if they might actually be men under that armor instead of women?

That is the conversation you want to avoid having happen at all. Because rumors would spread, and eventually an Inquisitor would take notice and investigate. Which would hassle the Sisters of Battle.

Unless, as I've said before, it is assumed anything in the armour is female.

If it doesn't actually look female, rumors are going to start that they might be men. You want to stop those rumors from even starting.

And Astartes armour has no masculine features (bar BA). Do Inquistors pop open Space Marine suits to see if they're all male?

What would happen if a Space Marine actually WERE female?

Would anyone even CARE, other than marvelling at the oddity?

Would anyone even do anything to stop that woman from being a Space Marine?

Space Marines being all-male is only because they ARE all male, not because they HAVE to be male to continue to exist.

Trying to talk this whole discussion of chaplains back around to being on-topic does anyone ever wonder why there aren't tech-adept Battle Sisters? Every other Imperial army either has Mechanicum adepts sent from elsewhere or their own people sent off and trained by the Mechanicum, shouldn't there be a Techpriestess?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Trying to talk this whole discussion of chaplains back around to being on-topic does anyone ever wonder why there aren't tech-adept Battle Sisters? Every other Imperial army either has Mechanicum adepts sent from elsewhere or their own people sent off and trained by the Mechanicum, shouldn't there be a Techpriestess?

There should also be Techpriestesses in the Imperial Guard, since I don't think the Mechanicum are actually male-only in any way.

Pouncey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
...So why haven't Space Marines got giant penises hanging off their power armour to show they're male?

Some of the codpeices are pushing it.

Also because the legal justification for the existence of Space Marines isn't gender-dependent.

The codpieces are protective. Not symbolic.

And I'm afraid you must have missed every single reference to Space Marines as "Brothers", a "Brotherhood", the Emperor's "Sons", or just the entire recruiting process, which only goes through boys, either due to tradition, active misogyny, or inability for women to accept gene-seed.
Space Marines are required to be male.
Sisters of Battle are required to be female.

Neither needs to have overt sigils of their gender on their armour. All they need is for their armour to display their faction - Astartes, or Ecclesiarchy.

 Pouncey wrote:
Make your own models and don't try to mess with the current ones.

Was it not clear from our discussion earlier in the thread that this is exactly what I am planning to do?

I am not proposing ideas I would like to see Games Workshop use in any future plastic Sisters of Battle release, (and I am fairly certain that if they ever do make plastic Sisters of Battle they will look more-or-less identical to the metal ones, the only differences will be what using plastic sprues forces them to do compared to what using metal moulds stopped them from doing) what I am talking about, are ideas for models I intend to make now.

Anyway, it may be almost morbid to add more images to the thread but, here are a few more pictures, culled from the interwebs (absolutely not my artwork, I can't draw for toffee) that are all in my inspiration folder. And I know I'm only just introducing the word 'inspiration' to my posts but it might be useful to couch everything I say in terms of 'inspiration' and not as examples that I would slavishly and literally adhere to.



And lastly just a bit of fun, y'know, a joke image...

 Pouncey wrote:
If it doesn't actually look female, rumors are going to start that they might be men.

This discussion is getting pointless. You are asking us to disprove your fanfiction. The burden of proof is on you.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Pouncey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
...So why haven't Space Marines got giant penises hanging off their power armour to show they're male?

Some of the codpeices are pushing it.

Also because the legal justification for the existence of Space Marines isn't gender-dependent.

The codpieces are protective. Not symbolic.

And I'm afraid you must have missed every single reference to Space Marines as "Brothers", a "Brotherhood", the Emperor's "Sons", or just the entire recruiting process, which only goes through boys, either due to tradition, active misogyny, or inability for women to accept gene-seed.
Space Marines are required to be male.
Sisters of Battle are required to be female.

Neither needs to have overt sigils of their gender on their armour. All they need is for their armour to display their faction - Astartes, or Ecclesiarchy.

The actual reasons why Astartes are all-male and the Sisterhood are all-female are different though.

It is, in the lore, a biological impossibility for Space Marines to be female.

In the lore, the only thing stopping a man from going through Sororitas training and becoming a full Sister of Battle is that the Ecclesiarchy isn't allowed to do that by law. And people break laws all the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
If it doesn't actually look female, rumors are going to start that they might be men.

This discussion is getting pointless. You are asking us to disprove your fanfiction. The burden of proof is on you.

. . . The amount of things that we believe go on in 40k lore that we only assume to be the case because it makes sense with the existing lore is staggering. Why is this special case suddenly "fanfiction" when it doesn't require a single bit of lore that doesn't actually exist, but instead extrapolating from the actual lore we know to be true?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Pouncey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
...So why haven't Space Marines got giant penises hanging off their power armour to show they're male?

Some of the codpeices are pushing it.

Also because the legal justification for the existence of Space Marines isn't gender-dependent.

The codpieces are protective. Not symbolic.

And I'm afraid you must have missed every single reference to Space Marines as "Brothers", a "Brotherhood", the Emperor's "Sons", or just the entire recruiting process, which only goes through boys, either due to tradition, active misogyny, or inability for women to accept gene-seed.
Space Marines are required to be male.
Sisters of Battle are required to be female.

Neither needs to have overt sigils of their gender on their armour. All they need is for their armour to display their faction - Astartes, or Ecclesiarchy.

'Some of the codpeices are pushing it' means 'yes, I know the codpeices are protective, but now and again you see one and go '...is that really necessary?''. At least I think it does.

Similarly 'Space Marines are all male' is a different statement from 'the only reason Space Marines exist as an army is that someone once made a rule saying the Emperor couldn't do genetic engineering experiments on women'. The Imperial Guard is segregated as a practicality/uptightness thing, but we aren't getting up in arms about whether they should make a big point out of their gender in the army's identity, are we?

 Pouncey wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
Practical armor on humans generally makes people look more masculine.

No, it makes them look androgynous.

By removing everything distinctly female about them, yes.

And they NEED to look like women even while wearing their battle armor.

So you are saying that the baroque power armor, the fleur de lis, the ecclesiarchy logos and robes are insufficient to mark them out as Sisters of Battle. That doesn't make a lick of sense! All members of the Imperium are indoctrinated into the Imperial Cult and thus would be at the very least familiar with the symbols of the Ecclesiarchy and their practices. And anyone in a command position would likely know what a Sororitas looks like especially if they are going to be serving in the same warzone. Further, your hypothesis fails since such a misunderstanding could be cleared up by a suspicious Imperial official asking a Sororitas to speak. Or if he is particularly inquisitive, asking her to take off her helmet. The Imperium isn't so stupid as to engage in open warfare with one of it's largest institutions over such an easily resolved misunderstanding.

I'm pointing out that there's a good reason for the Sisters of Battle to leave everyone who sees them with no doubt whatsoever that they are actually female.

And the way to do that, is to make them look so exaggeratedly female at all times that any excessively paranoid person who suggested they might be men would be laughed at and not taken seriously whatsoever.

Which necessitates their plate armor being shaped with exaggerated female traits.

What? That still makes no sense. Any Imperial with enough the authority to challenge Sororitas would know what they look like. And further, anyone stupid enough to make such a mistake would find themselved with a bolter shell to the head.

I mean, if boob plate is the make or break according to you males could get away as being Sororitas if they wore it.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Except - and here's the kicker - wouldn't the citizenry of the Imperium know to recognise a certain armour mark belonging to the SOB?
I mean, they can identify Mark VII Astartes Power Armour - why would they not also be told that anything wearing "this" mark is a Sister of Battle?

Yeah, they know what Sisters of Battle look like. They're around more Sororitas than Astartes. What's your point?

Precisely. If the armour is retconned completely, they will assume anything in that armour is a Sororias, no? Like they currently do with Space Marines. No need to hypersexualise it.

Plus, I'll echo the points above - the people who would care would also investigate.

And thus inconvenience every Sister of Battle who needed to be inspected. Huge hassle.

None more so than these mandatory gender inspection tests they must do on Space Marines, eh?

Incidentally, if the armour is completely retconned, and Imperial citizens are taught that anything wearing X armour piece is a SOB, wouldn't that solve the issue?

Imperial Citizen A: Hey, you know those Sisters of Battle?
Imperial Citizen B: Yeah, what about them?
Imperial Citizen A: How do you even know they're a "Sister" of Battle?
Imperial Citizen B: I dunno, really. They keep their helmets on all the time.
Imperial Citizen A: You ever wonder if they might actually be men under that armor instead of women?

That is the conversation you want to avoid having happen at all. Because rumors would spread, and eventually an Inquisitor would take notice and investigate. Which would hassle the Sisters of Battle.

What about the ones they must obviously have about Space Marines:

"Hey, how do we know that Space Marines aren't Orks in disguise?"
"They keep their helmets on at all times!"
"And they don't show their human appendages which Orks don't have!"
"#orkmarinesconfirmed"

"Hey, how do we know that those Space Marines aren't Chaos Space Marines?"

"How do we know they aren't Eldar?"

Etc etc.

Unless, as I've said before, it is assumed anything in the armour is female.

If it doesn't actually look female, rumors are going to start that they might be men. You want to stop those rumors from even starting.

So what's to stop people wondering if Astartes are female?
Also, sorry to bring IRL into this, but does your view extend to trans and genderfluid? Do they need to show their gender externally too?

And Astartes armour has no masculine features (bar BA). Do Inquistors pop open Space Marine suits to see if they're all male?

What would happen if a Space Marine actually WERE female?

Would anyone even CARE, other than marvelling at the oddity?

Would anyone even do anything to stop that woman from being a Space Marine?

Space Marines being all-male is only because they ARE all male, not because they HAVE to be male to continue to exist.

Check my note on it either being tradition (which is sancrosanct in the Imperium) or because geneseed only affects males.
If tradition is the case, then Femarines is HERESY.

Seeing as we aren't given a reason as to why only men can be Astartes, only that only men are accepted, it could be either.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
If it doesn't actually look female, rumors are going to start that they might be men.

This discussion is getting pointless. You are asking us to disprove your fanfiction. The burden of proof is on you.

. . . The amount of things that we believe go on in 40k lore that we only assume to be the case because it makes sense with the existing lore is staggering. Why is this special case suddenly "fanfiction" when it doesn't require a single bit of lore that doesn't actually exist, but instead extrapolating from the actual lore we know to be true?

'The 2,200 Grey Knights and all the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers that disappeared between the 3e and 5e GK books are still out there doing their own thing, but Terra has declared them renegade and doesn't talk about them anymore'. is an example of fanfiction.

'The Battle Sisters have obviously female armour designs because they're exploiting a loophole in the laws of a bloated bureaucratic state in a politically expedient manner.' is an example of reading between the lines.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
Practical armor on humans generally makes people look more masculine.

No, it makes them look androgynous.

By removing everything distinctly female about them, yes.

And they NEED to look like women even while wearing their battle armor.

So you are saying that the baroque power armor, the fleur de lis, the ecclesiarchy logos and robes are insufficient to mark them out as Sisters of Battle. That doesn't make a lick of sense! All members of the Imperium are indoctrinated into the Imperial Cult and thus would be at the very least familiar with the symbols of the Ecclesiarchy and their practices. And anyone in a command position would likely know what a Sororitas looks like especially if they are going to be serving in the same warzone. Further, your hypothesis fails since such a misunderstanding could be cleared up by a suspicious Imperial official asking a Sororitas to speak. Or if he is particularly inquisitive, asking her to take off her helmet. The Imperium isn't so stupid as to engage in open warfare with one of it's largest institutions over such an easily resolved misunderstanding.

I'm pointing out that there's a good reason for the Sisters of Battle to leave everyone who sees them with no doubt whatsoever that they are actually female.

And the way to do that, is to make them look so exaggeratedly female at all times that any excessively paranoid person who suggested they might be men would be laughed at and not taken seriously whatsoever.

Which necessitates their plate armor being shaped with exaggerated female traits.

What? That still makes no sense. Any Imperial with enough the authority to challenge Sororitas would know what they look like. And further, anyone stupid enough to make such a mistake would find themselved with a bolter shell to the head.

I mean, if boob plate is the make or break according to you males could get away as being Sororitas if they wore it.

Yup, they probably could get away with it. They may in fact be getting away with it already by simply never taking their helmet or armor off. But no one would even question it, for the same reason when you see someone in real life who is obviously a woman, or obviously a man, you don't even question, "Are they actually the sex they obviously aren't?" but when you see someone who appears androgynous, you do actually consider both as options. And when Sisters of Battle are only allowed to exist because they're female, you don't want people questioning whether they're a man or a woman under that armor. If their armor gives off an excessively feminine appearance, no one's going to question it but the most die-hard paranoid people, and they're going to question it no matter what. This way, not a single other person takes them seriously.

Pouncey, people aren't as dumb as you are making out. Not even the Imperium is that stupid. As matter of fact, such incompetency is what gets you killed in Imperial politics.

Years ago when my friend first introduced me to this game he showed me a handful of models from this game. And I do mean handful - one of the models was a space marine with a power fist. My initial reaction was 'how stupid is this...a soldier's gauntlet is the size of his chest'!

But then I got it. It's all an over the top space fantasy with crazy elements all around. So why are so many now griping about how the Sisters' armor isn't 'realistic' enough? Or it somehow offends their 21st century sensibilities?

Seriously? Like space marine armor is realistic or practical? Where a man could barely walk in those ridiculous bell-bottom armor pants and couldn't look over his shoulder to save his life. C'mon people, if anything the Sisters' armor is MORE realistic. But it hardly matters. Their whole look is intertwined to their background story as woven into the 40K background, not any current social paradigm.

If one doesn't like the look that's fine but I think they look pretty good. I'd keep any changes to a minimum and keep their distinctive look. It fits the theme of the game very nicely, I think.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Precisely. If the armour is retconned completely, they will assume anything in that armour is a Sororias, no? Like they currently do with Space Marines. No need to hypersexualise it.

Is there any actual reason a Sororitas can't be a man if the Ecclesiarchy chose to break the law that says they can't?

None more so than these mandatory gender inspection tests they must do on Space Marines, eh?

There's no law that says a Space Marine has to be male. If a Space Marine were female for some reason, it would be a divine miracle, but it wouldn't break any laws.

What about the ones they must obviously have about Space Marines:

"Hey, how do we know that Space Marines aren't Orks in disguise?"

"Silly, Orks don't use infiltrators."
"Oh yeah."

"Hey, how do we know that those Space Marines aren't Chaos Space Marines?"

"They don't have spikes and skulls on their armor and aren't killing us. Also, what's Chaos, and why is there a cyclonic torpedo aimed at us now?"

"How do we know they aren't Eldar?"

"Eldar consider us to be beneath them, they'd never lower themselves to impersonating a human."

Etc etc.

"Astartes Power Armor requires the Black Carapace to work, and that armor's moving."
"Oh yeah."

Unless, as I've said before, it is assumed anything in the armour is female.

If it doesn't actually look female, rumors are going to start that they might be men. You want to stop those rumors from even starting.

So what's to stop people wondering if Astartes are all male?
Also, sorry to bring IRL into this, but does this view extend to trans and genderfluid? Do they need to show their gender externally too?

Nothing would stop people from wondering if Astartes were actually male.

And no one would even really care if an Astartes were female, other than marveling at what should be biologically impossible.

Check my note on it either being tradition (which is sancrosanct in the Imperium) or because geneseed only affects males.
If tradition is the case, then Femarines is HERESY.

Does anyone actually look at a suit of Astartes power armor and even wonder if the person inside is female?

No.

Because everyone knows Astartes are biologically required to be male.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Pouncey, people aren't as dumb as you are making out. Not even the Imperium is that stupid. As matter of fact, such incompetency is what gets you killed in Imperial politics.

Maybe I'm basing it on what I've gleaned from Internet discussions on various subjects over the years. Just look at all the thought that's been put into figuring out whether TF2's Pyro is male or female. Now look at all the thought that's been put into figuring out whether TF2's Heavy is male or female.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Pouncey, people aren't as dumb as you are making out. Not even the Imperium is that stupid. As matter of fact, such incompetency is what gets you killed in Imperial politics.

The point that you all seem to be missing is what gender the people in the power armour are is almost completely irrelevant. The question isn't whether an individual soldier or a leader of some sort believes that any specific soldier under the Ecclesiarchy's command is male or female, the question is whether they can make use of the possibility.

If the Ecclesiarchy were to have troops that were ambiguous or masculine in appearance someone else in the mechanism of the Imperial government could use that to accuse them of flaunting or violating the Decree Passive, and use that as leverage to damage the Ecclesiarchy's political position in some way.

People in politics and government don't usually believe the rhetoric they're tossing around, especially where religion is involved, and even more especially in the sort of Stalinist nightmare state that the Imperium is usually presented as.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Pouncey, people aren't as dumb as you are making out. Not even the Imperium is that stupid. As matter of fact, such incompetency is what gets you killed in Imperial politics.

The point that you all seem to be missing is what gender the people in the power armour are is almost completely irrelevant. The question isn't whether an individual soldier or a leader of some sort believes that any specific soldier under the Ecclesiarchy's command is male or female, the question is whether they can make use of the possibility.

If the Ecclesiarchy were to have troops that were ambiguous or masculine in appearance someone else in the mechanism of the Imperial government could use that to accuse them of flaunting or violating the Decree Passive, and use that as leverage to damage the Ecclesiarchy's political position in some way.

People in politics and government don't usually believe the rhetoric they're tossing around, especially where religion is involved, and even more especially in the sort of Stalinist nightmare state that the Imperium is usually presented as.

Yup. I didn't consider that, but it's a better point than the one I was trying to make.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Pouncey, people aren't as dumb as you are making out. Not even the Imperium is that stupid. As matter of fact, such incompetency is what gets you killed in Imperial politics.

The point that you all seem to be missing is what gender the people in the power armour are is almost completely irrelevant. The question isn't whether an individual soldier or a leader of some sort believes that any specific soldier under the Ecclesiarchy's command is male or female, the question is whether they can make use of the possibility.

If the Ecclesiarchy were to have troops that were ambiguous or masculine in appearance someone else in the mechanism of the Imperial government could use that to accuse them of flaunting or violating the Decree Passive, and use that as leverage to damage the Ecclesiarchy's political position in some way.

People in politics and government don't usually believe the rhetoric they're tossing around, especially where religion is involved, and even more especially in the sort of Stalinist nightmare state that the Imperium is usually presented as.

Except such accusations could easily be rebuffed by a simple examination of the individual involved. Plus, the Adepta Sororitas are an institution that has existed for Millennia. A removal of boob plate to us would be a sudden new radical change that would make the gender of the individuals involved be questioned. To the people of the Imperium it would just be the armor the SoB wear. Plus, boob plate wouldn't make a difference to disuade political opponents. By your logic if they found a butch Sororitas in boob plate they could just as easily claim that the Ecclesiarchy is flaunting the Degree Passive and using boob plate to hide it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Snip

Rubbish.

If that sort of political gambit were going to be played it would be much easier to do with the Frateris Militia, it would be simplicity itself to claim that some random priest with a lasgun was directly contravening the Decree Passive and was in fact proof of a return to the bad old days of the Frateris Templars.

The entire discussion about SoB armour needing to be hyper-feminine to prove they are actually women is specious nonsense.

http://dreamforge-games.com/products/eisenkern-panzerjagers-10-female-tank-hunters


More realistic, no boob plate, $2.20 a model, and I see pretty much no one using them as Adepta Sororitas.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
...Except such accusations could easily be rebuffed by a simple examination of the individual involved...

I'm going to repeat myself here. "The gender of the people in the army is irrelevant." The point isn't whether the people throwing out the accusations are correct, the point is that they can make a political point out of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gogsnik wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Snip

Rubbish.

If that sort of political gambit were going to be played it would be much easier to do with the Frateris Militia, it would be simplicity itself to claim that some random priest with a lasgun was directly contravening the Decree Passive and was in fact proof of a return to the bad old days of the Frateris Templars.

The entire discussion about SoB armour needing to be hyper-feminine to prove they are actually women is specious nonsense.

It's actually getting strawmanned both ways a bit and getting turned into specious nonsense. I hopped in here because Pouncey was making what I thought was a valid point about the political environment of the setting and it managed to get sent off into the weeds where people were arguing about whether a soldier in the field would know or care what gender the power-armoured detachment next to him was.

And the Frateris militia are a dispirate rabble with no chain of command and very loosely associated with the Ecclesiarchy, last I checked. The Decree Passive doesn't say the Ecclesiarchy can't dump an agitator outside their formal hierarchy in a slum with a crate of lasguns, look the other way, and whistle, it says they can't maintain a standing army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:
http://dreamforge-games.com/products/eisenkern-panzerjagers-10-female-tank-hunters


More realistic, no boob plate, $2.20 a model, and I see pretty much no one using them as Adepta Sororitas.

I was trying to give an example of a model that managed to look both feminine and practical, not an example of a perfect Battle Sisters proxy.

I'm going to work on some and see what I come up with, but given the time/greenstuff likely to be required I doubt it'll be a widespread solution.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
...Except such accusations could easily be rebuffed by a simple examination of the individual involved...

I'm going to repeat myself here. "The gender of the people in the army is irrelevant." The point isn't whether the people throwing out the accusations are correct, the point is that they can make a political point out of it.

And my point is that boob plate would do nothing to disuade those people from making that point. They could point to any butch sister and declare them a man. They could declare they saw a man regardless of the attractiveness of the sisters he saw. He could declare he saw a man even if he never saw a sister in his life. Anyone willing to make such ridiculous accusations because he didn't find a Sister attractive probably doesn't care or need evidence. Even you yourself admit this since that is the crux of your argument.

My overall point is that no one of importance would believe them because it would be such a ridiculous claim. And if they did boob plate wouldn't make an iota of difference.

To use your own words to show why this whole line of discussion is specious:

The point isn't whether the people throwing out the accusations are correct, the point is that they can make a political point out of it.

The Frateris Militia encompasses all manner of individuals with associations to the Ministorum. A political opponent, as per the example used, could simply claim that the Ecclesiarchy were raising 'men under arms' and thereby breaking the Decree Passive thus allowing this political opponent to do whatever it is they hope to do by making such a claim.

And just as you have already said, "The point isn't whether the people throwing out the accusations are correct, the point is that they can make a political point out of it."


This is why it is a specious argument (amongst us real people in the thread, not in-universe), seemingly plausible yet, with very little critical thinking applied, utterly ridiculous.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
...Except such accusations could easily be rebuffed by a simple examination of the individual involved...

I'm going to repeat myself here. "The gender of the people in the army is irrelevant." The point isn't whether the people throwing out the accusations are correct, the point is that they can make a political point out of it.

And my point is that boob plate would do nothing to disuade those people from making that point. They could point to any butch sister and declare them a man. They could declare they saw a man regardless of the attractiveness of the sisters he saw. He could declare he saw a man even if he never saw a sister in his life. Anyone willing to make such ridiculous accusations because he didn't find a Sister attractive probably doesn't care or need evidence. Even you yourself admit this since that is the crux of your argument.

My overall point is that no one of importance would believe them because it would be such a ridiculous claim. And if they did boob plate wouldn't make an iota of difference.

You're wandering off into the weeds here. 'Attractiveness' is an irrelevant point, and this isn't about an individual trying to convince a person in power. This is about the delicate balance of power that is large bureaucratic systems and the power of political theatre.

The Imperium (like any large state) is composed of a mishmash of departments trying to push their own agenda. If someone in power (let's call him Lord Fargle from the Munitorium) wants something that conflicts with the Ecclesiarchy's agenda (let's say he wants to divert a shipment of fine Ultramar marble destined for Ecclesiarch Hans' new palace to his own) he could stand up in a meeting of the High Lords and say 'Ecclesiarch Hans is flaunting the Decree Passive! Look at these images of the men under arms he's maintaining! Look at these witnesses I've collected who agree with me! He should be handed over to the Inquisition for investigation!'.

And nobody in the room is going to care what the genitals behind the armour look like. They're going to take one side or the other based on their own agendas; it may suit them at that point to look like Fargle's evidence is convincing, it may suit them to remain unconvinced. They may want something from one or the other. They may need to appear to be more or less zealous at that point in time.

And yes, Lord Fargle could absolutely do all of this without the Battle Sisters as a sticking point. He could pick on something else, he could make up an illegitimate abhuman child or cult involvement or something else entirely, but the more strictly Ecclesiarch Hans APPEARS to toe the line the harder it is for Fargle to make something stick.

My point is that the facts of the case are vastly less important than the theater, and the costuming in this case is a component of the theater.

Personally I'd be really happy to just avoid the lore discussions and stick with just maintaining an aesthetic that still looks good after 20 years, and disregard the notion of practical design even being a consideration in a technologically backwards faction that makes things like the Taurox where it has four treads but none of the treads are actually long enough to be more useful than wheels.