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Apparently, it's okay for you to incessantly argue your beliefs for page after page after page, but not for me to argue for mine. Go figure.

 Melissia wrote:
Nope. We need far more than that. In fact, GW could afford to triple the size of the army list and it'd be just about right, with plenty of room for future expansion.

Having the same things as before repetitively shat out with minimal effort is what we currently get, we don't need more of that. We need GW to put some actual effort in to it, not this lazy non-solution you're suggesting.

I know you think it's okay for GW to be lazy, but I don't.

I'd like for the SoB to be revived, like I have for quite some time now; however, even if they do decide it's a worthwhile procedure, it'd probably be a slow one. Honestly, I'd be fine with them trickling in, as I'd rather them take their time and bring some interesting units that reflect the personality of the Adeptus Sororitas rather than "here's what a female Space Marine would look like!" models. Give me intrigue, that gothic looking Power Armour and flamers galore and I'm sold - to hell with the rules attached to them.

Should make that clear though - SoB aren't Space Marines, nor should they ever be, in their lore, in their style and most especially in their models.

G.A

 Melissia wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Adepta Sororitas just need a formation that allows them free transports, and they'll be good as gold.

Nope. We need far more than that. In fact, GW could afford to triple the size of the army list and it'd be just about right, with plenty of room for future expansion.

Having the same things as before repetitively shat out with minimal effort is what we currently get, we don't need more of that. We need GW to put some actual effort in to it, not this lazy non-solution you're suggesting.

I know you think it's okay for GW to be lazy, but I don't.

...Quick interjection: Who doesn't get a Codex that's been repetitively shat out with minimal effort? Most Codexes are fairly bare-bones and uncreative these days...

Most of htem at least get SOMETHING new. Sisters don't.

 Melissia wrote:
Most of them at least get SOMETHING new. Sisters don't.

If I were to hazard a guess, GW are worried about the longevity and popularity of SoB. They weren't very popular when they were first released in model form, they sure as hell aren't now. Why they have been sitting on them and only releasing codex updates I don't know; we can only speculate why that is, usually it's the bandwagon of "well they're female so the manchildren/children don't like them". I personally think it's more down to them not having enough diversity to form an interesting model collection, since even a single squad of Sisters nets you multiples of the same model, something I hate a lot when it comes to old GW metals.

 General Annoyance wrote:
If I were to hazard a guess, GW are worried about the longevity and popularity of SoB.

If they were worried about that, they'd add something new to entice more sales. By refusing to support something NOW, all you're doing is signaling to your customers that you don't really plan on supporting it in the future. See: the Sega 32x and Sega CD, which no one bought because they knew with the Saturn coming out Sega would never support it.

As has been pointed out countless times, they don't really follow standard economics knowledge.

 Melissia wrote:

If they were worried about that, they'd add something new to entice more sales.

Potentially, or we can have lots of shiny new Knight variants and Space Marines that they know sell well! Basically they could risk it or not risk it and probably get the money anyway.

By refusing to support something NOW, all you're doing is signaling to your customers that you don't really plan on supporting it in the future. See: the Sega 32x and Sega CD, which no one bought because they knew with the Saturn coming out Sega would never support it.

Apologies for being 18, probably wasn't even born when that debacle was about; I get what you're saying, but again, risk a new product line that wasn't successful last time around, or continue with stuff we know that sells? Granted SoB weren't given enough time and love to be successful, but I reckon that's what the execs are thinking over at GW evil base.

As has been pointed out countless times, they don't really follow standard economics knowledge.

Right, but we still don't have a reason why though do we? I'm only speculating about what they're thinking - for all we know they're snorting warp dust and putting forward whatever product line is labelled to a cup they get the ball in in a game of beer pong.

Now that's a thought

 Ashiraya wrote:
Frankly, you repeating the false dilemma 'keep SoB exactly as they are or change absolutely everything about them' is getting tiring now. You and Manchu had a field day painting that fallacy all over the walls earlier.

What a lot of rot you do talk. In reality, you perfectly epitomize the biggest issue facing Sisters on these boards: you admit to not caring about the faction except as a "problem" that requires GW to revamp Sisters according your personal preferences, which in turn have nothing to with the faction in question specifically or even 40k generally, in order to be "fixed" - and then MAYBE you might like them. Actually, Sisters are not a problem for you to solve. And actually there are already people who like them. The fact that you can only see them as a problem to fix just demonstrates that you don't like them. That is an issue with YOU, not them.

What the codex needs is to go back to its roots, put baack in the mailitia and add in the clergy. The SOB are only part of the the Church's army, Change the name to defenders of the Faith and flesh it back out.

Oh and formations should be added with some using elements of the AM.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've been digging through the Exorcist kit and I'm now wondering just how many different vehicles you could stick in one kit. Two upper hulls (the normal one and the Repressor one), extra armour inserts, the Immolator turret, the Exorcist launcher, and a couple of pintle weapon options and you've got four vehicles in one box (five, if you can stick a Predator-variant main turret in there).

I suppose the Exorcist kit is nearly there anyway; if they included the clear plastic parts for the turret front you'd get Rhino, Immolator, and Exorcist. It'd be SO AWESOME to get a Repressor though.

 Manchu wrote:
What a lot of rot you do talk.

Are you a mod, and if I report your messages, will you be the one treating the report?
I have quite a sizable Sisters army, and I agree with most of what Ashiraya say.

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
I've stayed out of this for a while because the discussion got a bit daft.

I like the current aesthetic. I like the idea of wimples, indeed there's some 2nd Edition art of a Canoness with a wimple smiting heretics.

I really, really like the style of armour - the robes, the clean lines, the over-corset, the medieval-religious-gothic-SF baroque feel - it's all part and parcel of the Ecclesiarchy in general and the Sisters in particular.

I don't think that any update would need to make any actual aesthetic changes! Just shift the existing style into plastic, and give us some more head options - scarred, bionic-eyed, wimple, helmets, etc.

I still wish someone would finally explain to me what a "wimple" is, because I don't know.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
I've stayed out of this for a while because the discussion got a bit daft.

I like the current aesthetic. I like the idea of wimples, indeed there's some 2nd Edition art of a Canoness with a wimple smiting heretics.

I really, really like the style of armour - the robes, the clean lines, the over-corset, the medieval-religious-gothic-SF baroque feel - it's all part and parcel of the Ecclesiarchy in general and the Sisters in particular.

I don't think that any update would need to make any actual aesthetic changes! Just shift the existing style into plastic, and give us some more head options - scarred, bionic-eyed, wimple, helmets, etc.

I still wish someone would finally explain to me what a "wimple" is, because I don't know.

It's the shroud that Nuns wear over their heads

 Bi'ios wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
I've stayed out of this for a while because the discussion got a bit daft.

I like the current aesthetic. I like the idea of wimples, indeed there's some 2nd Edition art of a Canoness with a wimple smiting heretics.

I really, really like the style of armour - the robes, the clean lines, the over-corset, the medieval-religious-gothic-SF baroque feel - it's all part and parcel of the Ecclesiarchy in general and the Sisters in particular.

I don't think that any update would need to make any actual aesthetic changes! Just shift the existing style into plastic, and give us some more head options - scarred, bionic-eyed, wimple, helmets, etc.

I still wish someone would finally explain to me what a "wimple" is, because I don't know.

It's the shroud that Nuns wear over their heads

Ahh, thanks. : D

Yeah, it'd be pretty neat to see a Sororitas seeing an Ecclesiarchial version of one of those. Would sell the nun part of their lore a bit more solidly on the models.

 Gen.Steiner wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've been digging through the Exorcist kit and I'm now wondering just how many different vehicles you could stick in one kit. Two upper hulls (the normal one and the Repressor one), extra armour inserts, the Immolator turret, the Exorcist launcher, and a couple of pintle weapon options and you've got four vehicles in one box (five, if you can stick a Predator-variant main turret in there).

I suppose the Exorcist kit is nearly there anyway; if they included the clear plastic parts for the turret front you'd get Rhino, Immolator, and Exorcist. It'd be SO AWESOME to get a Repressor though.

You'd need to get a plastic Repressor roof, a plastic organ, and plastic extra armour panels in alongside the current plastic components. I bet they could do it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have quite a sizable Sisters army, and I agree with most of what Ashiraya say.

So what? All this tells me is that you bought a bunch of miniatures you don't much like or at least no longer like. I liked my Sisters miniatures when I bought them and I still like them - which is why I hope that plastic Sisters would look pretty much the same way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
Would sell the nun part of their lore a bit more solidly on the models.

Seems unnecessary to me, at least for militant Sisters. Their "habit" is a white bob and baroque PA. (I also think DA waering robes over their PA is dumb.)

 Pouncey wrote:
Would sell the nun part of their lore a bit more solidly on the models.

Sisters aren't really like nuns, in the sense that beside being an organization of religious women, they don't have much in common with nuns. Especially, nuns are similar to monks, with asceticism being a virtue (in 40k, that's Dark Angels and their robes and lack of bling), while Sisters are more akin to high-level priests that showers themselves in ostentatious wealth (see: the Vatican officials).
I have seen artworks of Sisters with a wimple, and I don't like the result.

 Manchu wrote:
All this tells me is that you bought a bunch of miniatures you don't much like or at least no longer like.

I like them. Doesn't mean I don't see room for improvement. I'd be pretty happy if Sisters come out the same. I'd be happier if they came out even better. By your own logic I would say you don't like your miniatures anymore because you want to replace them with a plastic version.
Anyway, you skipped my version. If I feel like some of your post break the Dakka rules and I report the message, will you be the one treating the report?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Sisters aren't really like nuns, in the sense that beside being an organization of religious women, they don't have much in common with nuns.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have seen artworks of Sisters with a wimple, and I don't like the result.

Here at least are two points we can agree on! Calling SoB "nuns" is more of a joke than anything or, at best, an oversimplification based on there being no better common term for a female member of a religious order.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
By your own logic I would say you don't like your miniatures anymore because you want to replace them with a plastic version.

That's not my logic - I would not conflate a point about the design concept of the faction with a point about the material the miniatures are made out of.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Anyway, you skipped my version.

I skipped it because Rule Number Two is Stay On Topic. If you want to have an off-topic discussion, please feel free to PM me.

So little of the SoB range would survive a full shift to plastic I could see GW throw the rest out in favor of a complete overhaul of the aesthetic.

Unfortunately, as much as I'd like to see SoB expanded I can't help but feel they'll end up as one of these smaller codices, like Harlequin or Mechanicus. Let's be honest with ourselves some of the SoB units are rather forced, conceptually weak, and are really built around trying to get the most out of a limited model range. It is in ways akin to how Veteran marine were before they became Sternguard and Vanguard. I think we'll see some similar alterations to SoB whenever they do get revamped.

 Manchu wrote:
which in turn have nothing to with the faction in question specifically or even 40k generally

Pretty much the only things I have said - in fact, the only problems I have mentioned that I feel need adressing - are the breastplate design and overall armour sturdiness. Which, while a change for the faction, is hardly new to 40k!

You can throw venom at me as many ways as you like, telling me I am a hater who doesn't understand anything or whatever, but it boils down to me wanting one part of SoB changed and being absolutely fine with the rest, and you telling me that means I want destroy everything that the faction is.

Do you usually go into Grey Knight threads where people say they are portrayed as too powerful and tell them to throw their opinions in the thrash because their massive power is one of the Grey Knights' shticks? No? So what is it with suggesting alternate armour designs that makes you give me derisive comment after comment? As I also said many times, I think I understand SoB better than you if you seriously think the faction will be destroyed if another armour design is introduced, one that retains the same helmet style, decoration, half-robes, colouration...

The armour is not all that relevant, who is inside it is. If you doubt me, let's replace all SoB, with them all actually being very skilled Ork kommandos. Do you feel that would destroy the faction?

 Manchu wrote:
you admit to not caring about the faction except as a "problem" that requires GW to revamp Sisters according your personal preferences

What is so unacceptable with 'I like faction X and might well play it if not for this one problem, perhaps it should be changed?'

You make it sound like I am trying to impose my will on everybody, but you forget both that I have no power to actually do so and that the very topic of the thread is discussing how they might be updated in the future, so offering ideas for exactly that is as thread-appropriate as you can get.

You are complaining that a suggested change would change things, which seems a bit redundant.

Edited by Moderator - Rule Two is Stay On Topic

 aka_mythos wrote:
So little of the SoB range would survive a full shift to plastic I could see GW throw the rest out in favor of a complete overhaul of the aesthetic.

All of the armored Sisters would survive as multi-part models. The Immolator / Exorcist 2-in-1 is easy enough.

I think it's just the Repentia at become a problem, but it's not like the metals can't carry on.

 aka_mythos wrote:
So little of the SoB range would survive a full shift to plastic I could see GW throw the rest out in favor of a complete overhaul of the aesthetic.

Unfortunately, as much as I'd like to see SoB expanded I can't help but feel they'll end up as one of these smaller codices, like Harlequin or Mechanicus. Let's be honest with ourselves some of the SoB units are rather forced, conceptually weak, and are really built around trying to get the most out of a limited model range. It is in ways akin to how Veteran marine were before they became Sternguard and Vanguard. I think we'll see some similar alterations to SoB whenever they do get revamped.

Sort of? The Acts of Faith setup gives them a lot more variety already than most of the mini-Codexes; GW took two Grey Knight units, stretched them into six, and called them an army back in 5e, Sisters have six units already, making a Codex out of them doesn't have anywhere near as much design-space overlap.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
So little of the SoB range would survive a full shift to plastic I could see GW throw the rest out in favor of a complete overhaul of the aesthetic.

All of the armored Sisters would survive as multi-part models. The Immolator / Exorcist 2-in-1 is easy enough.

I think it's just the Repentia at become a problem, but it's not like the metals can't carry on.

Looking at what happened to the Dark Eldar, I suspect aka_mythos may be right.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
So little of the SoB range would survive a full shift to plastic I could see GW throw the rest out in favor of a complete overhaul of the aesthetic.

All of the armored Sisters would survive as multi-part models. The Immolator / Exorcist 2-in-1 is easy enough.

I think it's just the Repentia at become a problem, but it's not like the metals can't carry on.

Looking at what happened to the Dark Eldar, I suspect aka_mythos may be right.

Why look at Dark Eldar? Why not Grey Knights? Their entire look survived the shift to plastic minus changing faux latin to english.

I suspect SOBs won't change too much unless it becomes nesscarily, I could see repenta sisters being changed or even abandoned though

 Ashiraya wrote:
it boils down to me wanting one part of SoB changed and being absolutely fine with the rest, and you telling me that means I want destroy everything that the faction is

For the third time ITT you have made up an argument and assigned it to me. First, you claimed that I was obsessed with Sisters' boobs (when it is actually you focusing on them - even in the text quoted above). Second, you claimed I argued that Sisters should either be kept the same or changed completely. And now you claim that I'm ranting about how you want to destroy the faction, even though you obviously have no "power" to do so. So many strawmen.

Maybe we are just talking past each other at this point, both sides misunderstanding the other. So for the sake clarity here is my actual point (my first post ITT):

 Manchu wrote:
Sisters do not require any amount of redesign, apart from purely technical considerations (such as the classic cloth drapery issue). I would say redesign beyond the technical is much more likely to be a detriment than a positive. They have a very unique and striking look. It ought to be preserved.

As to this:

 Ashiraya wrote:
What is so unacceptable with 'I like faction X and might well play it if not for this one problem, perhaps it should be changed?'

It's nothing to do with you personally. It is the overall approach that people seem to have toward SoB; namely, there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed. Your specific problem/fix is boob-related. That is a pretty common one because, I think, a lot of people want to talk about "the gender issue" (in one form or another) rather than Sisters of Battle. But the larger issue is assuming that this faction's design needs to be fixed. It doesn't.

 Manchu wrote:
Maybe we are just talking past each other at this point

Probably. I have made my points, it is up to everyone else to agree or disagree.

I was about to say, it just comes down to whether you think Sisters should change or stay the same. But that's not really true here. "What would it take to get Poster XYZ to collect Sisters?" is a completely different and honestly unrelated question. But I think that is the beginning, middle, and end of how a lot of posters discuss SoB.

 Manchu wrote:
I was about to say, it just comes down to whether you think Sisters should change or the stay the same. But that's not really true here. "What would it take to get Poster XYZ to collect Sisters?" is a completely different and honestly unrelated question.

I guess most people just don't see this as “Should they change” but rather as “Would this change make them better”. And in this case, it is related to “Would that get poster XYZ to collect them” : generally, if you find a change would make them better, it will also find this change would make you more likely to collect them.

It seems like you are using "X makes them better" and "X makes me personally like them more" interchangeably - but these are not the same. What if Poster XYZ declares, well I would like Sisters if they were all bald. Okay, but so what?

If you think about it, what is a good argument for changing the visual design of Sisters? Probably the first one you think of is, to sell more models. But there is no evidence that the existing design suppresses sales. (Again - the "problem" here seems to be with GW, not the faction.) Is there another good argument for changing them? Yeah probably; that would be a profitable line of discussion.

Maybe changing the design would make the figures more flexible in terms of pose or configuration. When you raise a point like that, however, it just makes you realize that the existing design is already good on that score.