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 Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
So little of the SoB range would survive a full shift to plastic I could see GW throw the rest out in favor of a complete overhaul of the aesthetic.

All of the armored Sisters would survive as multi-part models. The Immolator / Exorcist 2-in-1 is easy enough.

I think it's just the Repentia at become a problem, but it's not like the metals can't carry on.

Looking at what happened to the Dark Eldar, I suspect aka_mythos may be right.

Why look at Dark Eldar? Why not Grey Knights? Their entire look survived the shift to plastic minus changing faux latin to english.

Um, what? I have the original RT-era GK stuff, and they were completely redone. Back in RT, GK are primarily non-Psykers, but the few they have are Mary Sue powerful; new GK are *all* Psykers, with these new GKPAs and ridiculous Baby Bjornoughts. My SM were supposed to be non-psyker GKs, and now they can't be.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
So little of the SoB range would survive a full shift to plastic I could see GW throw the rest out in favor of a complete overhaul of the aesthetic.

All of the armored Sisters would survive as multi-part models. The Immolator / Exorcist 2-in-1 is easy enough.

I think it's just the Repentia at become a problem, but it's not like the metals can't carry on.

Looking at what happened to the Dark Eldar, I suspect aka_mythos may be right.

Why look at Dark Eldar? Why not Grey Knights? Their entire look survived the shift to plastic minus changing faux latin to english.

Um, what? I have the original RT-era GK stuff, and they were completely redone. Back in RT, GK are primarily non-Psykers, but the few they have are Mary Sue powerful; new GK are *all* Psykers, with these new GKPAs and ridiculous Baby Bjornoughts. My SM were supposed to be non-psyker GKs, and now they can't be.

Models.

We're talking about models.

Not fluff.

And I had a metal Grey Knight Terminator. Not sure it was RT-era, but it was the version before the current plastic ones. It looked pretty much exactly the same as the plastic ones did when they came out.

The non GKT models are dramatically different. Not even close to being a match, what with their now mandatory forearm guns.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The non GKT models are dramatically different. Not even close to being a match, what with their now mandatory forearm guns.

Pewter PAGK from 3rd Edition all had them with mandatory forearm guns too, they've been that way for a while now.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
So little of the SoB range would survive a full shift to plastic I could see GW throw the rest out in favor of a complete overhaul of the aesthetic.

All of the armored Sisters would survive as multi-part models. The Immolator / Exorcist 2-in-1 is easy enough.

I think it's just the Repentia at become a problem, but it's not like the metals can't carry on.

Looking at what happened to the Dark Eldar, I suspect aka_mythos may be right.

Why look at Dark Eldar? Why not Grey Knights? Their entire look survived the shift to plastic minus changing faux latin to english.

DE changed quite a bit in the 5e release, but their old models were terrible on a scale difficult to surpass. They came out looking like evil Craftworlders in a nice bit of visual consistency.

In the history of 40K, post Rogue Trader era, the only armies I can think of that got radical overhauls in appearance are Dark Eldar, who's original models where terrible looking, Tyranids, who got bigger, badder, and better looking, and Necrons, who slimmed down.

I don't feel radically redesigning Sororitas aesthetic is what they need.

The concept of using them either appeals to you or it does not.

If your a 14 year old boy that won't play with them because they are girls, changing the aesthetic isn't going to change that.
If your a Space Marine enthusiast that won't play sister because they are inferior to Space Marines, changing the aesthetic isn't going to change that.

If you are waiting for them to have a printed codex, a new codex will fill your needs.
If you are waiting for them to have affordable plastics, new plastic models fill your needs.

If they recut the molds to produce metal molds with slightly smaller boobs, but the models were still expensive and not supported with a current codex, they aren't doing what is needed.

Also remember that radically altering the Sororitas aesthetic is effectively giving a middle finger to the players who currently have and enjoy their Sororitas forces.

Now, granted if new plastic sisters had less pronounced boob plate, and their design didn't clash with existing models, I'd be okay with it, and boob plate isn't an issue for me, but boob plate is not a major issue, availability is.

Also, for the last time, Sisters don't have high heels. Reguardless of what some 20 year old cover art depicts, the models themselves don't have high heels. Modern depictions of them have been less "Heavy Metal" magazine cover for a long, long time.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The non GKT models are dramatically different. Not even close to being a match, what with their now mandatory forearm guns.

Pewter PAGK from 3rd Edition all had them with mandatory forearm guns too, they've been that way for a while now.

As I noted, my GK go back to RT/2E, not merely 3E...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The non GKT models are dramatically different. Not even close to being a match, what with their now mandatory forearm guns.

Pewter PAGK from 3rd Edition all had them with mandatory forearm guns too, they've been that way for a while now.

As I noted, my GK go back to RT/2E, not merely 3E...

Fair enough, but wouldn't they have still been not even close to being a match in 3rd Edition? I just don't see the difference between your statement regarding the old design and the plastic design when the same would be true of their other old design.

Right. As adamsouze notes, stop using Blanche's "art" as a basis. It sucks (like 99% of what he's ever produced) and it has thankfully been mostly ignored by the majority of Sisters writers, artists, and sculptors since.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The non GKT models are dramatically different. Not even close to being a match, what with their now mandatory forearm guns.

Pewter PAGK from 3rd Edition all had them with mandatory forearm guns too, they've been that way for a while now.

As I noted, my GK go back to RT/2E, not merely 3E...

Fair enough, but wouldn't they have still been not even close to being a match in 3rd Edition? I just don't see the difference between your statement regarding the old design and the plastic design when the same would be true of their other old design.

When GK got a Codex and new-look minis, I stopped playing "GK". The visual look was so far off, I was out. That they are now plastic doesn't change that they don't match the classic GKs.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
When GK got a Codex and new-look minis, I stopped playing "GK". The visual look was so far off, I was out. That they are now plastic doesn't change that they don't match the classic GKs.

I'm not sure how that's relevant.

The change to their looks happened when the new models were still metal.

The shift to plastic didn't create much of a change other than faux latin being replaced with English.

And we're talking about going from metal Sisters of Battle to plastic Sisters of Battle in this thread.

Their looks don't have to be changed by the shift from metal to plastic, because shifting from metal to plastic didn't change much about Grey Knights. Those changes occurred independently of the shift to plastic.

Which isn't to say that we can't change their looks, just that we don't have to. Therefor the argument on whether or not to change looks is purely on the merits of the current looks vs the merits any other potential ideas for their looks put forth.

 Melissia wrote:
Which isn't to say that we can't change their looks, just that we don't have to.

Correct.

If GW wants to, they could change how they look at the same time. They don't have to, but they could.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The non GKT models are dramatically different. Not even close to being a match, what with their now mandatory forearm guns.

Pewter PAGK from 3rd Edition all had them with mandatory forearm guns too, they've been that way for a while now.

As I noted, my GK go back to RT/2E, not merely 3E...

Fair enough, but wouldn't they have still been not even close to being a match in 3rd Edition? I just don't see the difference between your statement regarding the old design and the plastic design when the same would be true of their other old design.

When GK got a Codex and new-look minis, I stopped playing "GK". The visual look was so far off, I was out. That they are now plastic doesn't change that they don't match the classic GKs.

Ok, I get what you are putting down.

 Melissia wrote:
Right. As adamsouze notes, stop using Blanche's "art" as a basis. It sucks (like 99% of what he's ever produced) and it has thankfully been mostly ignored by the majority of Sisters writers, artists, and sculptors since.

You finally said something I agree with, and triply with the bolded.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right. As adamsouze notes, stop using Blanche's "art" as a basis. It sucks (like 99% of what he's ever produced) and it has thankfully been mostly ignored by the majority of Sisters writers, artists, and sculptors since.

You finally said something I agree with, and triply with the bolded.

that is certainly one opinion...
thankfully, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and i think his work is quite nice...

his style of drawing Sisters is suitably Gothic, and i really liked the heels on his Femme Militant line...
i like the Combat Heels on my Infinity minis (which are pretty tame, in my opinion), but i don't think that Blanche's style would be a good fit for a redesign of the Sisters, as it would put off too many potential customers...
the current look works perfectly well to show them as badass female warrior-nuns...
the bob-cut is a nice alternative to the wimple...

cheers
jah

 Manchu wrote:
It seems like you are using "X makes them better" and "X makes me personally like them more" interchangeably

Nah. I did imply that "X makes them better" very, very often means that "X makes me personally like them more" is true to. But it's not always the case the other way around.

 Manchu wrote:
If you think about it, what is a good argument for changing the visual design of Sisters?

Making them look even better. I can't seem to find anything that wouldn't boil down to that. You can go the cynical route and just focus on sale, though, but really how will you prove that a new design won't sell better without before hearing about what the new design would be?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Making them look even better. I can't seem to find anything that wouldn't boil down to that. You can go the cynical route and just focus on sale, though, but really how will you prove that a new design won't sell better without before hearing about what the new design would be?

Do you have artwork showing what your improvements would turn the Sororitas into?

I.E. Concept art. I would like to see it.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Um, what? I have the original RT-era GK stuff, and they were completely redone. Back in RT, GK are primarily non-Psykers, but the few they have are Mary Sue powerful; new GK are *all* Psykers, with these new GKPAs and ridiculous Baby Bjornoughts. My SM were supposed to be non-psyker GKs, and now they can't be.

Ha, I had this exact same thought

I loved and still have my original Grey Knights, in fact, I bought some more just recently off eBay and have yet to get around to buying some plastic ones. The entire look of the models, particularly the iconic Nemesis Force Weapons were, well, they aren't even anything alike, there is very little about the original Grey Knights that survived the revamp in either look or lore. I don't think anyone in the thread has suggested such a radical overhaul of the models and background for the Sisters of Battle.

In any case, customers have every right to wish-list changes to a product they support, but would support more, if in any future updates of that product, the manufacturer tweaked it in certain ways. It is an entirely reasonable line of discussion and to suggest these customers are "giving the middle finger" to those who are happy to see zero changes to the product is very silly and clearly not the case.

For those who don't recall way back when...

I particularly like the #2 and #3 bodies, but I have a #1 body to make the squad.

I detest the frog helms and wrist guns replacing the baroque details and sculpted armor.

I was never too keen on No 1 Body compared to the other two, especially since it was basically a reworked Librarian, but like you say, my favourite thing about them were the baroque helmet designs and the weapons, and they went. It's one of the aspects of SoB that people constantly state they like most about them, the helmet design, and yet in this instance it was completely and utterly reworked. Not that I don't say the new GK don't look "iconic" but it's not the same at all, as the older, and equally iconic, look.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
For those who don't recall way back when...

Spoiler:

I particularly like the #2 and #3 bodies, but I have a #1 body to make the squad.

I detest the frog helms and wrist guns replacing the baroque details and sculpted armor.

Spoiler:

i still have the originals, too...
lovely models

of course, i don't have a problem with the new style Termies, but the PA guys just never resonated with me...
i like the wrist guns on the plastic Termies, but the plastic PA ones don't look cool to me...
the metal PA minis with a belt feed looked better...

that is the crap-shoot with redesigns...
some have been an improvement, and others have been a crying shame...
losing the Diaz Daemonettes will be lamented for many more years to come :(

i need to get around to finally painting an OG Grey Knight...
it's only been 25 years since i bought 'em

cheers
jah

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
For those who don't recall way back when...

I don't, I started playing GK in 3e. I do agree about the frog helmets, I put the Paladin helmets on all my plastic Terminators.

Wrist guns I'm less sure about. There's been a push towards standardizing the size of the same weapon on different models, storm bolters most places are big enough these days they wouldn't fit onto the weapons.

I do miss the ammo belts from the 3e-era models, though.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I detest the frog helms and wrist guns replacing the baroque details and sculpted armor.

They remind me of the Garthim from The Dark Crystal, the only reason I like them. If I got the army, I'd paint it weathered copper for that exact reason.

 jah-joshua wrote:
that is the crap-shoot with redesigns...
some have been an improvement, and others have been a crying shame...

losing the Diaz Daemonettes will be lamented for many more years to come :(

i need to get around to finally painting an OG Grey Knight...
it's only been 25 years since i bought 'em

cheers
jah

That fear of a bad change is not unwarranted.

Yeah, the changes in the Daemons are huge. The old Rt/2E stuff was so goofy. Then we got the Diaz Daemonettes and the squid Horrors, which were great! And then we got the current plastics, which are not. At all.

I probably oughta get around to doing something with my Diaz Daemonettes, get them playable...

 Gogsnik wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Um, what? I have the original RT-era GK stuff, and they were completely redone. Back in RT, GK are primarily non-Psykers, but the few they have are Mary Sue powerful; new GK are *all* Psykers, with these new GKPAs and ridiculous Baby Bjornoughts. My SM were supposed to be non-psyker GKs, and now they can't be.

Ha, I had this exact same thought

I loved and still have my original Grey Knights, in fact, I bought some more just recently off eBay and have yet to get around to buying some plastic ones. The entire look of the models, particularly the iconic Nemesis Force Weapons were, well, they aren't even anything alike, there is very little about the original Grey Knights that survived the revamp in either look or lore. I don't think anyone in the thread has suggested such a radical overhaul of the models and background for the Sisters of Battle.

In any case, customers have every right to wish-list changes to a product they support, but would support more, if in any future updates of that product, the manufacturer tweaked it in certain ways. It is an entirely reasonable line of discussion and to suggest these customers are "giving the middle finger" to those who are happy to see zero changes to the product is very silly and clearly not the case.

Some of the suggestions people have mentioned for changing the Sisters of Battle in this thread have involved drastic changes like going with shaved heads instead of the current haircut and very practical armor instead of ceremonial gothic armor.

Also, uh, I dunno whose side you two are on, because you're saying you hate the changes made to the Grey Knights' original aesthetics but seem to be pushing for changing the Sororitas' original aesthetics. Is it that you just want other people to suffer what you have suffered, or do you not realize you're suggesting the kind of thing you hated when it happened to your own favorite army?

I fail to see how me wanting alternate heads is anywhere close to a full redesign anywhere close to what the GK got.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I fail to see how me wanting alternate heads is anywhere close to a full redesign anywhere close to what the GK got.

Alternate heads? That hasn't been my impression of what you've been arguing for. You seemed to very strongly believe that Sisters of Battle would look better if they all had buzzcuts, and the concept of these being alternative, optional pieces to the current haircut was either never brought up or lost on me entirely.

And despite asking three times, I have yet to see any concept art of the changes people would like to see made to the armor. I am very, very wary of the potential changes to the armor people are pushing for when they fail to provide any concept art of those changes and rely on very, very vague alterations to video game characters in poor focus and low graphics settings that do not look anything like Sisters of Battle to begin with.

I am telling you in no uncertain terms that Sisters would look dramatically better with shaved heads, or wimples, or the existing Sallet helms. The first is unabashedly military; the second is iconic from the Rogue Trader rulebook; the helmets from the original release in 2E. If I call out 3 different head styles, that obviously means I'm asking for a varied selection of alternate heads if we should ever get plastic Sisters. I've also said that I would gladly replace all of my bob cut heads, which should also be obvious that I want alternate heads.

I have not called for changes to the armor's look. I have called for a reduction to Sv4+ with faith-based a 5++ invulnerable save, because that is what I think that their armor looks like.

You, however, have been resisting any changes at all, saying that any change, no matter how slight, makes them not Sisters. I don't agree with that at all.

The buzz cut heads are shown in other official Sisters artwork, notably the Repentia / Penitent artwork in C:WH. Also Inquisitor. The buzzcuts are just as canon as the bobs and Sallets. However, your call for "femininity" seems a bit off, given that most painted Sisters models look like men in drag..

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I am telling you in no uncertain terms that Sisters would look dramatically better with shaved heads, or wimples, or the existing Sallet helms. The first is unabashedly military; the second is iconic from the Rogue Trader rulebook; the helmets from the original release in 2E. If I call out 3 different head styles, that obviously means I'm asking for a varied selection of alternate heads if we should ever get plastic Sisters. I've also said that I would gladly replace all of my bob cut heads, which should also be obvious that I want alternate heads.

Fine then.

[I have not called for changes to the armor's look. I have called for a reduction to Sv4+ with faith-based a 5++ invulnerable save, because that is what I think that their armor looks like.

Other people have called for changes. Hence why I said "people" and not "you".

Also, it's power armor, not carapace armor. It gets a 3+ armor save.

You, however, have been resisting any changes at all, saying that any change, no matter how slight, makes them not Sisters. I don't agree with that at all.

You have not been reading everything I've said.

I've said that I wouldn't be opposed to scaling down the boobplate so long as there's still some sort of upper-chest bulge in the armor. I'm not opposed to minor improvements. Wherever I start to revert to stating "no changes whatsoever" is when people seem to start pushing for a drastic revamp that would result in me hating the models that would result.

The buzz cut heads are shown in other official Sisters artwork, notably the Repentia / Penitent artwork in C:WH. Also Inquisitor. The buzzcuts are just as canon as the bobs and Sallets. However, your call for "femininity" seems a bit off, given that most painted Sisters models look like men in drag..

The repentia models do have shaved heads. The female Penitent Engine model has a hood so it's impossible to tell her hairstyle. Neither of those are an example of Sisters of Battle in general, as both are essentially being punished with death by combat. It's not inconceivable that that punishment could require a shaven head.

And if GW wants to make their faces look more feminine, they really should.