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Basically as the title suggests, should home made fluff for chapters always avoid being Mary Sue, or having Mary Sue characters?

Especially given that most official fluff has a Mary Sue element to it.

Now I've been at pains to ensure that my chapter isn't Mary Sue, I've taken inspiration from down on their luck chapters such as The Lamenters etc. But given the epic nature of the background, and the fact that most characters or important figures have an element of Mary Sue about them, shouldn't everyone inject a little over the top heroism/villainy into some of their characters?

"Captain McCaptainface, high Marshall of the third company was one of the imperiums finest swordsmen, swift of wit, and strong of forearm"

There isn't much about the 40k universe that isn't turned up to 11, toning it down sometimes feels a little out of place doesn't it?

Then term Mary Sue really has no fixed meaning. The Internet, as it is so fond of doing, has taken a term originally coined to define the worst of fanfic excess and transitioned it to mean any extra special element in a background.

As you point out, the 40k background isn't very nuanced, so having high power level aspects are more common.

I would say that it's okay to have your chapter be amazing in some ways, as long As there are also weaknesses or downsides.

Agreed. The key to not being ridiculous is understanding that the one thing 40k tends to avoid is absolutes.

"Captain McCaptainface, high Marshall of the third company was one of the imperiums finest swordsmen, swift of wit, and strong of forearm"

One of the finest swordsmen is fine. I suspect you wouldn't get to be an Astartes captain (of whom there are what? ten thousand, give or take?) without being "one of the finest swordsmen in the Imperium". You could easily be in the top ten percent - even the top one percent - of astartes without being anyone we've ever heard of. We don't even know the full roster of chapters who compete in the Feast of Blades, let alone the names of their champions.

Saying you are "the best", by comparison, is nigh impossible to prove as well as very "my chapter is better because reasons!".


It's much the same in any element of the fluff. Yes, you'll have countless victories. But they'll have lost at some point in several thousand years of history. It's unrealistic if you haven't.

You can have whatever 'special' things you want your chapter to have, but you don't get to steal other chapter's special things. The Phalanx is the largest warship in the Imperium. Dante is the oldest living chapter master. The Grey Knights have never had a battlebrother fall to chaos.

And if you want a 'special thing' make the reason make sense. The Exorcists [Do Absolutely Nothing Out Of The Ordinary, Move Along] during their recruitment process. The result of this means that they need more neophytes. Hence; three scout companies and puritan inquisitors really, really dislike them.

The trick to making a chapter make sense is to pick one key concept and think through the consequences, good and bad, rather than going for scatter-shot bits of awesomeness.

Thanks, you've both made fairly good points there.

I really like the idea of my chapter having been put through the wringer on several occasions. I'm still writing and rewriting their history and makeup. I've tried to have the fluff match up to what they've experienced on the tabletop as well as their basic makeup models wise.

For example, an incident in their past has influenced them to become collectors of ancient tech and old style Astartes equipment...explaining away the fact that most of my guys are made from MKIV armour from the Betrayal at Calth box etc.

If it's for your chapter master then he can be a bad ass that's why he is a chapter master, and strong as hell.

Mary Sue things you always want to avoid are:

Directly interacting with major plot characters
Doing ungodly deeds even for the 40k world, IE taking out a warlord Titan with just a bolt gun.

Being the key the humanities survival

Punched abandon right in the face but then again that's probably pretty easy seeing as how he can't fight his way outta a paper bag

I'd try and balance things out. For example my Craftworld is militarily stronger than other Craftworlds of the same size but have fewer people so they had to automate more of their processes so now nobody trusts them.

From a writing standpoint, you need to treat your Chapter's weaknesses, defeats and shortcomings with as much detail, care and love as you would give their strong points. It is a very common amateur mistake to really be slapdash and uncaring of the weaknesses of their characters (and in this case, your Chapter is basically a character), where in reality, the shortcomings and flaws are the most important defining features. Weaknesses are areas for growth, struggle and development which are crucial when it comes to telling your story. A big reason the "Mary Sue" label is so disdained is because such characters never struggle and never change, they are extremely -boring- characters and that is the big thing to avoid.

And also, not all weaknesses need to be massive, crippling "kryptonite to Superman" weaknesses. Consider the whole range from small quirks to the deepest flaws.

Putting a missile through your own chapter's fortress never goes amiss as well.

Jokes aside, if you are thinking of a consequence or weakness, you can either go for several smaller smallcomings or one huge catastrophic event.

For example, you could say that on several occasions,large groups of Khorne Daemonkin have turned up to attack your scouting parties/strike forces seemingly out of nowhere, and take them out.

Likewise, you could have a huge KDK invasion on your chapter planet which wiped out a large sum of your chapter. Something like this can really help story and character development, which results in a more believable story.

I would say every single chapter has a specialty of trait that makes them unique.
As pointed out, the more interesting chapters have some defining tragedy, weakness or trait that seems to also define them.

Blood Angels: Red Thirst and Black Rage actually caused them to form a unique squad.

Flesh Tearers: Like above but with more issues. Will most likely die out due to the problem being so bad. They at least enjoy fighting Khorn Berserkers.

Dark Angels: Half of them turned to Chaos and they have been covering that up ever since. Have special units just to hunt those guys down.

Imperial Fists: So arrogant they caused the Iron Warriors to turn to chaos to prove them wrong....

Black Templar: Promised to remain on a perpetual crusade, holier than thou, headstrong, angry marines who train their newbies in the heat of battle.

Crimson Fists: Those gosh-darn random missiles from Orks really know how to destroy a Chapter's home.

(Funny how anyone derived from the Fists have anger issues).

Ultramarines: Nevermind.

Also, don't treat weaknesses like a checkbox you need to do. There is not a magic number, there is not some amount you need to make them "adequately flawed". You're making a story, what you need is enough to make it compelling and present. You can over and under-do it. If you overload on flaws, you create the question as to why someone spilled their slushee into the gene seed vat and created these dopes, but if you go under, you have the Mary Sue issue as well as no interesting realms of development or growth.

For example, an incident in their past has influenced them to become collectors of ancient tech and old style Astartes equipment...explaining away the fact that most of my guys are made from MKIV armour from the Betrayal at Calth box etc.

Fair enough; there are chapters out there who do use old style wargear. Note that 'maximus' pattern armour has several advantages over newer 'aquilla' - and there are the odd forges out there that still make it.

The Minotaurs are a chapter maintained and equipped at the express direction of the High Lords of Terra (essentially their personal bully-boys to be used against other astartes chapters as needed) and they are largely - mostly - equipped with maximus plate (the same stuff from betrayal at calth). Given that they're big on attrition tactics, they must have a reliable supply chain of the stuff, so it's still possible to acquire new, not just as relics off ancient battlefields.

I really like the idea of my chapter having been put through the wringer on several occasions.

A good start. By whom, why, and what did they do about it? Are the main questions.


And yeah - it's doable to make yourself special if you avoid interacting with known things. Some key rules:

1) Don't feature in 'known events' or interact with existing named individuals except on the very fringes.

2) There is always someone/something bigger than you.

3) If you're one in a million, in the imperium there's an entire planet full of you.

locarno24 wrote:

For example, an incident in their past has influenced them to become collectors of ancient tech and old style Astartes equipment...explaining away the fact that most of my guys are made from MKIV armour from the Betrayal at Calth box etc.

Fair enough; there are chapters out there who do use old style wargear. Note that 'maximus' pattern armour has several advantages over newer 'aquilla' - and there are the odd forges out there that still make it.

The Minotaurs are a chapter maintained and equipped at the express direction of the High Lords of Terra (essentially their personal bully-boys to be used against other astartes chapters as needed) and they are largely - mostly - equipped with maximus plate (the same stuff from betrayal at calth). Given that they're big on attrition tactics, they must have a reliable supply chain of the stuff, so it's still possible to acquire new, not just as relics off ancient battlefields.

I really like the idea of my chapter having been put through the wringer on several occasions.

A good start. By whom, why, and what did they do about it? Are the main questions.


And yeah - it's doable to make yourself special if you avoid interacting with known things. Some key rules:

1) Don't feature in 'known events' or interact with existing named individuals except on the very fringes.

2) There is always someone/something bigger than you.

3) If you're one in a million, in the imperium there's an entire planet full of you.

I didn't realise that about the Minotaurs, I knew about the Red Scorpions favouring MKIV armour, guess I need to read up a little more about it. Thanks.


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And basically my chapter were a noble and arrogant force assigned to an area to ward off rebellion from local governors and such who felt they were far enough from Terra to get away without paying tithes and what not. Then while massing the chapters forces ready to take on an Ork Waaagh, they were caught up in a heinous incident that led to the wholesale massacre of a planets population in sacrifice to the dark gods. The ritual opened a warp rift that swallowed the chapters fleet, and thus they were conveniently blamed and punished for it in one go.

Several years later they return from the purgatory of the warp to find they have been declared traitor, so they change their name and become loyalist renegades (if that makes sense) Fighting for the good of mankind, but without sanction from the Imperium. Striving to clear their name,mother wage a futile campaign in search of a "smoking gun" that they will likely never find.

As people have noted, the term "Mary Sue" is subjective, and while useful, is sometimes overused. That said, I tend to write things off as Mary Sue if...

Every victory feels like it comes easily to them. If your faction STRUGGLES for their victories, they probably won't be labeled Mary Sues.

They break the rules of the universe with little or no consequences, just because they're "special". IF you decide they need to be unusual in a way that the Imperium/general setting wouldn't normally allow, it should come at a steep cost.

They are the best at everything that matters. Yes they should have strengths, but also weaknesses. And don't make a weakness so niche it's never actually a problem.

I think those are the three biggest things to keep in mind when writing fluff for a homebrew chapter.

 curran12 wrote:
From a writing standpoint, you need to treat your Chapter's weaknesses, defeats and shortcomings with as much detail, care and love as you would give their strong points. It is a very common amateur mistake to really be slapdash and uncaring of the weaknesses of their characters (and in this case, your Chapter is basically a character), where in reality, the shortcomings and flaws are the most important defining features. Weaknesses are areas for growth, struggle and development which are crucial when it comes to telling your story. A big reason the "Mary Sue" label is so disdained is because such characters never struggle and never change, they are extremely -boring- characters and that is the big thing to avoid.

And also, not all weaknesses need to be massive, crippling "kryptonite to Superman" weaknesses. Consider the whole range from small quirks to the deepest flaws.

Very much this.

Almost as bad as disdaining weaknesses is trying to turn a flaw into a strength. Character flaws that don't have any real negative impact on the chapter other than to make them 'super cool' aren't really flaws.

I would avoid saying that a home brew chapter or army is the best at something, and instead just say they excel at it.

Saying you are the best at something just makes it rough when you lose a game to an army that does that something better. If you excel at it, you lose the mary sue element, and if another army beats you, there is no awkward, "I guess you can't call yourself the best anymore" moment.

Always be vague and open ended with achievements. Never touch canon lore too closely either. I think a good rule of thumb with starting a custom army is to look at the lore, and take one step back from it, then start. I've heard of armies where its crazy stuff like "It's Abbadons twin and he beat Khorne in an arm wrestling match!" No, just no. All of that should be avoided. Way too much mary sue, way too much touching main lore.

If you did something like, "was in the same company as Abbadon and has been personally blessed by khorne for his strength" it sounds more reasonable and is still very epic on the scale of 40k. No silly mary sue stuff either.


@curran12 talking about the flaws and errors in armies that people seem to feel forced on with marine armies. I agree that many times they are taken over the top. Not every marine army needs a deep dark secret, or some horrible curse to be cool and awesome. So Space Wolves for example, I always see custom space wolf armies for some reason. The secret successor chapter that has mastered the curse or something. No, don't do that, you making an army of mary sue! Now your whole army is better than the rest of the normal wolves.
Instead, look at wolves, take a step back from the lore, and start your army. So you have SW, no successors, but there are a bunch of great companies, and look at that black spot where the 13th company used to be? So you can just make a custom great company, or just be the 13th company, which is exactly what you were doing before, but not lore breaking crazy pants.


Sorry for the rant, I get tired of seeing "I want my army to be a special snowflake that is better than every other army because my lore said so"

Do what you want. Its your fluff.
1. To be frank, almost no one but you cares about the fluff of your own army.
2. Forget secrets, secret foundings of X or Y, whatever. Go into detail on famous battles and defeats.

Edit: for example, my fluff for the Third "We have Brown Pants for a Reason!" Yontisgrod Armored Regiment is heavily detailed about their ties to their home planet, its initial evolution etc. no one cares. But the fluff for my Zincwarriors is simple but well liked: "We're the Iron Warriors geeky little brother that got picked on in school."

Everyone should avoid 'Mary Sue' characters under all circumstances. Look at peoples' reactions to Draigo, all writing 'My super-special epic dude wanders around the galaxy punching out Greater Daemons and outwitting gods and building cathedrals in his spare time...' does is make people roll their eyes/want to punch you.

That said the line between a 'Mary Sue' and not is a subjective one; lists of common Mary Sue traits found on the Internet are warning signs, not hard-and-fast rules. Without going into too much detail, a few quick rules:

1: Wacky descriptors are reasonable to start at, but a bad spot to stop on. If your Chapter has frizzy anime hair and chain-katanas, fine. That doesn't make them interesting. Go on to go into the history, personality, organization, et cetera and make an interesting Chapter that just happens to have frizzy anime hair and chain-katanas.

2: Balanced application of traits. Think about this like the 4th edition Space Marine book's advantage/disadvantage structure: if your Chapter does something particularly well ('we have lots and lots of Terminator armour!'), make sure they do something particularly badly ('we have bad eyesight and don't really use infantry heavy weapons!'). Don't get too caught up in the calculus of it, but if you're going to come up with advantages come up with flaws.

3: Consider the setting. If your Chapter is composed of egalitarian humanists that have made their garden-world homeworld into an environmentally friendly paradise, don't eat meat, warn their enemies before attacking, and take prisoners back to their homeworld for trial and life imprisonment rather than shoot them on the spot, you should really rethink what game you're trying to write content for. I'm not saying you can't impose personal moral standards on the army fluff you're writing, but if you find yourself trying to explain how they can maintain such a high moral standard in a setting where nobody else does it's a sign you've gone a bit overboard.

4: Avoid Worf-effecting things. Nobody respects the Avatar of Khaine anymore because all his appearances in fluff are Space Marines beating him in single combat. If you want to show off how badass your Chapter Master is by telling us about the time he ripped a Carnifex's ribcage open with his bare hands and kept some of the bones to make a hat, sure, a bit over the top but fine. If you're going to tell us he had a fistfight with a named character and wiped the floor with him, you should probably reconsider.

Getting sucked into a Warp Rift for any length of time is a terrible event to experience. There's been one Chapter of note that returned from the Eye of Terror without having all become mutants and/or traitors.

It's ok if you want your Chapter to be loyalist renegades but, like the Souldrinkers, they need to have some bad effects from that unshielded trip into the Warp. Things like... sometimes, they sprout eye-stalks, or tentacles. Or their flesh is covered with various rune-scripts that bear certain sigils of the Arch-Enemy. Or their geneseed is now corrupted, so that only 1 in a thousand recruits survives the implantation process, the rest die screaming and horrifically mutating.

Remember that, in 40k, while the Imperium is evil as feth... they're still the good guys of the setting.

Hard topic really. On one hand avoiding a Mary Sue is a good thing. On the other it's about YOUR guys and YOUR fun, not others. You are paying for your minis, you are painting them and you invent their background. Sure, shoving your guys down others throats may not be a best idea, but still - don't look at other when it comes to creating your own army of little plastic dudes.

As for how to avoid being branded a Mary Sue lover. I've personally used the Deathwatch RPG chapter generator to create the basis for my DIY chapter. After that I've fleshed them out. Sure, they have a lot of cool toys for a simple UM successor, but they're also reckless and headstrong, always taking heavy losses. Also their first CM got wrecked so bad, that not even a single relic of him remained. So there you have it - balance.

In the end however, I would turn them into colossal Mary Sues, if it meant that I'd take fun from it. Because I can and because I'm allowed to, just like everyone else.

Psienesis wrote:Getting sucked into a Warp Rift for any length of time is a terrible event to experience. There's been one Chapter of note that returned from the Eye of Terror without having all become mutants and/or traitors.

It's ok if you want your Chapter to be loyalist renegades but, like the Souldrinkers, they need to have some bad effects from that unshielded trip into the Warp. Things like... sometimes, they sprout eye-stalks, or tentacles. Or their flesh is covered with various rune-scripts that bear certain sigils of the Arch-Enemy. Or their geneseed is now corrupted, so that only 1 in a thousand recruits survives the implantation process, the rest die screaming and horrifically mutating.

Remember that, in 40k, while the Imperium is evil as feth... they're still the good guys of the setting.

Yeah I am thinking of tweaking it slightly to be more of a "null zone" or something that they get spat out into idk. I enjoy writing the fluff, and making it match up to my guys experience. long story short, I when I started in the hobby in the 90s I had the stock ultramarine colours, but wanted to have an individual chapter, so painted flames on them and made them into a successor chapter. Eventually they got put in the attic as my younger self got into computers and girls etc. Skip forward 19 years and I get them out of the attic and decide to repaint them in a drab stealth grey colour. I want my fluff to reflect this in a way. I want their history to reflect all the battles they had back when I was younger, as well as the ones the games I play today. Hence the warp rift and the chapter going missing for X amount of years. When they return they've been through awful experiences and it's changed them. They paint their armour grey, and find they've been blamed for an atrocity they didn't commit, so they also change their name to hide from the shame that has been placed on them.

I like the idea of giving them other taints because of their exposure to the warp though. Some kind of flesh wasting disease sounds fun to me.

The whole "we are renegades but loyal" thing seems to get overdone in homebrews, I feel. That is just based on what I've seen, rather than an actual statistical analysis.

Rather than having them actually declared excommunicatae traitoris, I think it would be more interesting to have them under observation by the Inquisition and under a lot of suspicion from the highest levels of the Imperium. It gives a potential Inquisitor ally quirk, and flavour, without the whole "poor us" shtick.

They could still have spent decades in the warp by their own reckoning, leading to the changes you want, but only months in real space, as the warp is well known for that type of gak.

Mary Sue is a term that gets bantered about for every somewhat good snowflake character who has any measure of awesome about him. Unless your Special Snowflake is getting beat around by enemies and can't compare to the ACTUAL Special Snowflakes like named characters, or the Chapter is a shadow of the (insert critic's favourite chapter here) then its Mary Sue.

The important thing isn't how good the chapter/fluff is, its how well its written.

For example, one of the UM 2nd Company squads has had the same roster for a fairly long time, I think like 150 years? And they've had no casualties in that time. This is good because its badass, but its not extending to the whole chapter/company, etc


For example: Snowflake Chapter is a 38th founding chapter formed in the late 40th Millennium. Despite being a relatively young chapter they have proved their worth many times over, having never suffered a single defeat in their 1000 year history despite suffering heavy casualties and almost being killed to a man on several missions.
This is good because although they are "undefeated," 1000 years is nothing in the grand scheme of things, and they suffer heavy casualties.

On the other hand, The Supersnowflake Friends were a 2nd Founding Chapter of the Ultramarines handed pick as the best of the best by the Emperor in his dying breath to be the best. In their 10000 year history they have not lost a single Marine and ever one of them is as experienced as any Dreadnought or Chapter Master. The Imperium reserves them for when the threat is so grave even Exterminatus isn't an option. It is said when they send a single Marine to a fight, the other Marines fall down in awe of their hero.


Option C: The Snowflakes are a successor of the Imperial Fists who were formed in the Cursed Founding. They are currently led by Master McMastersonFace, who is said to be the greatest swordsman in the galaxy, after defeating (namedrop enemies like Kharn or a Hive Tyrant). They are close with the Mechanicus and so have access to much more plasma, melta and grav weapons than the average chapter, and their Librarians are naturally more gifted than most. It is said that deep within their fortress they have a hidden secret, said to be connected to the dissappearance of their ancestor Primarch, Dorn...

Get it? One of these is obviously OTT superduper spess mahreens. One is somewhat cool, never been defeated but only around a relatively short amount of time, and one seems to be in between. Which one is Mary Sue? Number 3, because its exactly everything that makes you groan without it being laughable.

I imagine my Alpha Legion being few in number but with good tech, and with the ultimate goal of linking two strategically important parts of the galaxy to one other with a chain of communications stations, so that less reliable methods of long distance communications aren't needed. However, as one station is created (often after a campaign involving losses and spent resources) it's found that another link in the chain has fallen to natural disaster, xenos pirates, the Imperium etc. and has to be retaken/repaired. In the end, after hundreds of years, when the communication link is finally complete it will be discovered that one end of the chain is a system that has fallen to [hostile forces] with no hope of recapture and the other now has no strategic significance at all due to the passage of time and other events taking place in the universe

Ultimately everything they strive for will have been for nothing. I'm not sure where the story would go from there. Maybe that would be the end. Maybe by this point only a small group of the most elite still remain, and rather than tell the rest of their newer brothers that everything had been for nothing they pretend to have received orders to extend the chain further... keeping them locked in a perpetual journey with no end. It can be inferred that this sequence of events has literally been going on for longer than anybody can remember

Not read the thread, but it depends what the material is. If it's an account by Imperial scribes, then anything that isn't cringeworthy should be allowable.

If it's an omniscient narrator account, then you should at least try to make them believable.


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 Deadshot wrote:

Option C: The Snowflakes are a successor of the Imperial Fists who were formed in the Cursed Founding. They are currently led by Master McMastersonFace, who is said to be the greatest swordsman in the galaxy, after defeating (namedrop enemies like Kharn or a Hive Tyrant). They are close with the Mechanicus and so have access to much more plasma, melta and grav weapons than the average chapter, and their Librarians are naturally more gifted than most. It is said that deep within their fortress they have a hidden secret, said to be connected to the dissappearance of their ancestor Primarch, Dorn...

Get it? One of these is obviously OTT superduper spess mahreens. One is somewhat cool, never been defeated but only around a relatively short amount of time, and one seems to be in between. Which one is Mary Sue? Number 3, because its exactly everything that makes you groan without it being laughable.

I read your final paragraph /before/ reading C, and I still rolled my eyes

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
I imagine my Alpha Legion being few in number but with good tech, and with the ultimate goal of linking two strategically important parts of the galaxy to one other with a chain of communications stations, so that less reliable methods of long distance communications aren't needed. However, as one station is created (often after a campaign involving losses and spent resources) it's found that another link in the chain has fallen to natural disaster, xenos pirates, the Imperium etc. and has to be retaken/repaired. In the end, after hundreds of years, when the communication link is finally complete it will be discovered that one end of the chain is a system that has fallen to [hostile forces] with no hope of recapture and the other now has no strategic significance at all due to the passage of time and other events taking place in the universe

Ultimately everything they strive for will have been for nothing. I'm not sure where the story would go from there. Maybe that would be the end. Maybe by this point only a small group of the most elite still remain, and rather than tell the rest of their newer brothers that everything had been for nothing they pretend to have received orders to extend the chain further... keeping them locked in a perpetual journey with no end. It can be inferred that this sequence of events has literally been going on for longer than anybody can remember

How does this even relate to the topic at hand? You've went waaaaaaay off topic to do some shameless self promotion. Shuffle your backside down to the fiction section and post this.

As for the actual topic at hand... I honestly believe the best way to avoid being Mary-Sue is to keep your Chapter more grounded as oppose to other ones. Make them out to be Astarte's not out to strangle blood thirsters or ravage Khaine's backside but a collective group who struggles through adversity. At times they'll fall others they'll rise. It isn't about being the accomplishments but the story you tell. So I believe keeping them grounded is a good place to start from avoiding the Mary-Sue elements.

Edit: They don't need a tapestry of epic feats to make them great, they don't even need to be great. As tempting as it is, you don't have to follow the status quo since most other chapters are blowing off Death Watch or whatever elitest group out there. Character, background, and history make the chapter great not giving the Deciever an unsolvable riddle.

You can't get worse than Grey Knights. Carry on.

 Benny Badmen wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
I imagine my Alpha Legion being few in number but with good tech, and with the ultimate goal of linking two strategically important parts of the galaxy to one other with a chain of communications stations, so that less reliable methods of long distance communications aren't needed. However, as one station is created (often after a campaign involving losses and spent resources) it's found that another link in the chain has fallen to natural disaster, xenos pirates, the Imperium etc. and has to be retaken/repaired. In the end, after hundreds of years, when the communication link is finally complete it will be discovered that one end of the chain is a system that has fallen to [hostile forces] with no hope of recapture and the other now has no strategic significance at all due to the passage of time and other events taking place in the universe

Ultimately everything they strive for will have been for nothing. I'm not sure where the story would go from there. Maybe that would be the end. Maybe by this point only a small group of the most elite still remain, and rather than tell the rest of their newer brothers that everything had been for nothing they pretend to have received orders to extend the chain further... keeping them locked in a perpetual journey with no end. It can be inferred that this sequence of events has literally been going on for longer than anybody can remember

How does this even relate to the topic at hand? You've went waaaaaaay off topic to do some shameless self promotion. Shuffle your backside down to the fiction section and post this.

As for the actual topic at hand... I honestly believe the best way to avoid being Mary-Sue is to keep your Chapter more grounded as oppose to other ones. Make them out to be Astarte's not out to strangle blood thirsters or ravage Khaine's backside but a collective group who struggles through adversity. At times they'll fall others they'll rise. It isn't about being the accomplishments but the story you tell. So I believe keeping them grounded is a good place to start from avoiding the Mary-Sue elements.

Edit: They don't need a tapestry of epic feats to make them great, they don't even need to be great. As tempting as it is, you don't have to follow the status quo since most other chapters are blowing off Death Watch or whatever elitest group out there. Character, background, and history make the chapter great not giving the Deciever an unsolvable riddle.

I'd say this is the best way to make a chapter not Mary Sue but its just not feasible. People make custom chapters because they are attracted to a particular idea. What your describing is "Generic Chapter of blandness." Its best from a Mary Sue perspective, but from actually wanting to collect or follow that chapter, why would you like a chapter that has nothing different that their name and paints? I mean, even the official chapters are all unique. Black Templars, SW, BA, DA, all have their things. The rest of the 1st Founding, obvious. Crimson Fists? Instead of just being "Not yellow Imperial Fists" they have their unique bit which is to do with Orks and Rynn's World. Raptors actually use camouflage. Blood Ravens with their psyker/T-Sons thing. Aurora Chapter have heavy mechanised assaults. Hawk Lords are expert pilots. Minotaurs, Flesh Tearers, Scythes of the Emperor, etc, all have a unique thing, be it rumours or ties or tactics or an event. Just making a generic, nothing special chapter isn't fun at all.

Hey Martel, go check out that fanon site and you'll see how bad it gets. Whole companies be snatched away into death watch BECAUSE THEY'RE THE BESTEST SPESSSSS MAREEEEENS! Adamantine Dragons, I think they were.

Oh, and don't take a lot of the examples from that site seriously. They ooze mary-sue.

Deadshot: Homie, you're missing a key thing here. When I say grounded, I mean avoiding all the atrocities of the fluff and making them out to be the Emperor's biological children. I hate to be that guy but look at my Boars? They're the big brothers to the Blue Man group cause their skin is like ice. That's just one example. They could have exotic equipment, like a giant nail gun or some thing. You could transfer medieval tactics or any for that matter to give them a specialty. What I'm saying here is starting with them being grounded and building from there. I like to think it helps avoid the whole superiority complex. Maybe I worded wrong but I hope this does clear things up.

 Selym wrote:
Not read the thread, but it depends what the material is. If it's an account by Imperial scribes, then anything that isn't cringeworthy should be allowable.

If it's an omniscient narrator account, then you should at least try to make them believable.


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 Deadshot wrote:

Option C: The Snowflakes are a successor of the Imperial Fists who were formed in the Cursed Founding. They are currently led by Master McMastersonFace, who is said to be the greatest swordsman in the galaxy, after defeating (namedrop enemies like Kharn or a Hive Tyrant). They are close with the Mechanicus and so have access to much more plasma, melta and grav weapons than the average chapter, and their Librarians are naturally more gifted than most. It is said that deep within their fortress they have a hidden secret, said to be connected to the dissappearance of their ancestor Primarch, Dorn...

Get it? One of these is obviously OTT superduper spess mahreens. One is somewhat cool, never been defeated but only around a relatively short amount of time, and one seems to be in between. Which one is Mary Sue? Number 3, because its exactly everything that makes you groan without it being laughable.

I read your final paragraph /before/ reading C, and I still rolled my eyes

Haha, you understand what I mean though? THe superdupers are so obviously superduper its laughable, so you know its satirical or just complete 8 year old syndrome. Option C are trying hard to not sound Mary Sue while still being Mary Sue which is what makes them Mary Sue


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Benny Badmen wrote:
Hey Martel, go check out that fanon site and you'll see how bad it gets. Whole companies be snatched away into death watch BECAUSE THEY'RE THE BESTEST SPESSSSS MAREEEEENS! Adamantine Dragons, I think they were.

Oh, and don't take a lot of the examples from that site seriously. They ooze mary-sue.

Deadshot: Homie, you're missing a key thing here. When I say grounded, I mean avoiding all the atrocities of the fluff and making them out to be the Emperor's biological children. I hate to be that guy but look at my Boars? They're the big brothers to the Blue Man group cause their skin is like ice. That's just one example. They could have exotic equipment, like a giant nail gun or some thing. You could transfer medieval tactics or any for that matter to give them a specialty. What I'm saying here is starting with them being grounded and building from there. I like to think it helps avoid the whole superiority complex. Maybe I worded wrong but I hope this does clear things up.

Without having read your boars, I like what you're getting at but you make it out to be different than what you apparently intended.

From your first post it sounded like "Generic Boring McBoringMarines with no special whatsoever"

What you meant, reading that is "Pick one of: Have unique gun X; relationship with Y; specialists at Z"

YES.

Can't stress that enough. Mary Sue is bad. There being mary sues in official 40k fluff *cough*draigo*cough* is no excuse for making up your own. Mary Sue fluff is bad, no matter whether it is official or not.

locarno24 wrote:
Agreed. The key to not being ridiculous is understanding that the one thing 40k tends to avoid is absolutes.

"Captain McCaptainface, high Marshall of the third company was one of the imperiums finest swordsmen, swift of wit, and strong of forearm"

One of the finest swordsmen is fine. I suspect you wouldn't get to be an Astartes captain (of whom there are what? ten thousand, give or take?) without being "one of the finest swordsmen in the Imperium". You could easily be in the top ten percent - even the top one percent - of astartes without being anyone we've ever heard of. We don't even know the full roster of chapters who compete in the Feast of Blades, let alone the names of their champions.

Saying you are "the best", by comparison, is nigh impossible to prove as well as very "my chapter is better because reasons!".


It's much the same in any element of the fluff. Yes, you'll have countless victories. But they'll have lost at some point in several thousand years of history. It's unrealistic if you haven't.

You can have whatever 'special' things you want your chapter to have, but you don't get to steal other chapter's special things. The Phalanx is the largest warship in the Imperium. Dante is the oldest living chapter master. The Grey Knights have never had a battlebrother fall to chaos.

And if you want a 'special thing' make the reason make sense. The Exorcists [Do Absolutely Nothing Out Of The Ordinary, Move Along] during their recruitment process. The result of this means that they need more neophytes. Hence; three scout companies and puritan inquisitors really, really dislike them.

The trick to making a chapter make sense is to pick one key concept and think through the consequences, good and bad, rather than going for scatter-shot bits of awesomeness.

Exactly my opinion.
Avoiding Mary Sue doesn't mean your Chapter or characters can't be really good at something. It just means that they have to be realistic, with weaknesses, and with reasons for and consequences of their strenghts and special abilities. For example: Never just say: "My Chapter is good at siege warfare" or something like that. Instead, explain why your Chapter is good at siege warfare and what the consequences are of this focus on siege warfare.
And most importantly: Pick just a single thing. Do not give your Chapter or character a whole slew of strenghts. That only rarely leads to good characters. Instead, pick just a single strenght and use that to define your character. If you do pick multiple strengths, make sure that they interrelate. Do not, never ever, give your characters strenghts just because "it is cool". Instead, make sure that they make sense given the character's role and history.
Best is to not pick any strenghts beforehand at all, and just focus on the role of your character and his history of how he became who he is. If you write it well, your character's strenghts and weaknesses will appear automatically.