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Deashot, you're killing me here! Not every Marine is famous for killing this and that. There are strategical feats, investigative, how they organize their chapter, there's so much more then 'Hey, my guy slayed your mom and put Slaanesh in a chastity belt, look how freaking great I am'. I'm trying to encourage exploring beyond the depth of murdering said individual(s).

 Benny Badmen wrote:
Deashot, you're killing me here! Not every Marine is famous for killing this and that. There are strategical feats, investigative, how they organize their chapter, there's so much more then 'Hey, my guy slayed your mom and put Slaanesh in a chastity belt, look how freaking great I am'. I'm trying to encourage exploring beyond the depth of murdering said individual(s).

Which one slayed my mom? My Snowflake can kill his mom twice, and put Khorne in a chastity belt.

I do get you, I think there's a communication breakdown. I do agree, what I'm saying is that unless you have that "feat" there's not much point, and something is only unique and interesting if they are actually unique or superior to any other in some way. For example, Dante isn't the best at everything but what he has to make him unique is that he's older than anyone else. Bjorn the Fellhanded fought with Leman Russ during the Heresy. Marneus "3 whole libraries written about his deeds" Calgar is bad.

Three things: Bjorn was probably too drunk to remember exactly what happened, Dante is a senile old man with a few too many bullets in his brain, and Calgar is bull plopper of the year. There, three great examples of what to not do with your character. Thank Deadshot, I do say we make quite the swell team, we should do this again some time.

Edit: Oh please, Khorne doesn't need it. He's a pissed off cripple with a creepy blood fetish; ain't no one wanting that.

(( I can't do this right now, brain needs more fuel and I'm starving like an african aid baby ))

 General Kroll wrote:
Basically as the title suggests, should home made fluff for chapters always avoid being Mary Sue, or having Mary Sue characters?

Especially given that most official fluff has a Mary Sue element to it.

Now I've been at pains to ensure that my chapter isn't Mary Sue, I've taken inspiration from down on their luck chapters such as The Lamenters etc. But given the epic nature of the background, and the fact that most characters or important figures have an element of Mary Sue about them, shouldn't everyone inject a little over the top heroism/villainy into some of their characters?

"Captain McCaptainface, high Marshall of the third company was one of the imperiums finest swordsmen, swift of wit, and strong of forearm"

There isn't much about the 40k universe that isn't turned up to 11, toning it down sometimes feels a little out of place doesn't it?

You don't become a captain of 100 Space Marines or a Chapter Master of 1000 Space Marines by being good a poker. You do it by leading from the front, smashing Xenos in the face, being an excellent leader, and making sure your forces have the resources they need.

There is nothing at all wrong with your own chapter.

The only time I roll my eyes at Do It Yourself chapters is "You know those two missing legions..." or "Female Space Marines...". Practically anything else is A-OK.

My custom chapter is really good at sieges, but they use a lot of bionics as the sitting around/eating biscuits all day causes diabetes in the more senior marines.

As a consequence of this the vanguard veterans (known as siege breakers) don't need jump packs as they can simply use their augmented legs to make great jumps instead!

Due to a translation error in the chapter's records being embedded in the chapter's culture, the marines regularly practice knitting techniques, which is why they are sometimes colloquially known as 'The Jumpers'.

The chapter logo is a Ram's head, which ties together the siege and craft elements.

 Frazzled wrote:

1. To be frank, almost no one but you cares about the fluff of your own army.

Pretty much this

but if you are trying to weave a story then weave a good one.

 Deadshot wrote:
Mary Sue is a term that gets bantered about for every somewhat good snowflake character who has any measure of awesome about him. Unless your Special Snowflake is getting beat around by enemies and can't compare to the ACTUAL Special Snowflakes like named characters, or the Chapter is a shadow of the (insert critic's favourite chapter here) then its Mary Sue.

The important thing isn't how good the chapter/fluff is, its how well its written.

For example, one of the UM 2nd Company squads has had the same roster for a fairly long time, I think like 150 years? And they've had no casualties in that time. This is good because its badass, but its not extending to the whole chapter/company, etc


For example: Snowflake Chapter is a 38th founding chapter formed in the late 40th Millennium. Despite being a relatively young chapter they have proved their worth many times over, having never suffered a single defeat in their 1000 year history despite suffering heavy casualties and almost being killed to a man on several missions.
This is good because although they are "undefeated," 1000 years is nothing in the grand scheme of things, and they suffer heavy casualties.

On the other hand, The Supersnowflake Friends were a 2nd Founding Chapter of the Ultramarines handed pick as the best of the best by the Emperor in his dying breath to be the best. In their 10000 year history they have not lost a single Marine and ever one of them is as experienced as any Dreadnought or Chapter Master. The Imperium reserves them for when the threat is so grave even Exterminatus isn't an option. It is said when they send a single Marine to a fight, the other Marines fall down in awe of their hero.


Option C: The Snowflakes are a successor of the Imperial Fists who were formed in the Cursed Founding. They are currently led by Master McMastersonFace, who is said to be the greatest swordsman in the galaxy, after defeating (namedrop enemies like Kharn or a Hive Tyrant). They are close with the Mechanicus and so have access to much more plasma, melta and grav weapons than the average chapter, and their Librarians are naturally more gifted than most. It is said that deep within their fortress they have a hidden secret, said to be connected to the dissappearance of their ancestor Primarch, Dorn...

Get it? One of these is obviously OTT superduper spess mahreens. One is somewhat cool, never been defeated but only around a relatively short amount of time, and one seems to be in between. Which one is Mary Sue? Number 3, because its exactly everything that makes you groan without it being laughable.

To be honest I thought all of those examples were examples of things to avoid. The tamest one is still "hasn't lost a battle in 1000 years." Even thought the circumstances might be believable if given more context, I wouldn't call so much attention by explicitly stating it in the first place. I'd prefer something more like: "Eager to prove themselves worthy, the chapters young history is filled with engagements where combatants have fought to the last man."

As much as the UM are harked upon, they have some solid losses. Damnos couldn't have been recaptured if it wasn't lost in the first place. Even if the legion remained a viable fighting force, Calth was a rough deal for the UM, and was a strategic gain for Horus. Notably though, these losses both help characterize the UM. An important part of their shtick is "Make sure to kill them or they will come back." You can't come back if you just win all the time in the first place.

Rocky winning all the time would be a pretty dull movie.

locarno24 wrote:


1) Don't feature in 'known events' or interact with existing named individuals except on the very fringes.

Would you say that would be more relaxed for notable liars like Chaos Warlords, who tend to make claims of glories they haven't won and battles they might never have been in?

Well, Chaos warlords might have been around for a long time, and it's not impossible that they might have met one of the "big players" of the heresy.
But if you go much beyond, say, "He once was on the same battlefield as a primarch," or "He was at Istvaan," and start sayng "he saved his primarch's life and became his champion and gave him advice", or "he punched out Erebus because reasons", you might be looking a bit Sue-ish.

Of course, if he's just talking himself up, that's different, but it should still be somewhat credible - no one believes a warlord who says he killed Guilliman, Dorn and Sanguinius in single combat, so only a warlord who was a very bad liar would say that. Claiming he had the favour of his primarch, or led an assault during the battle for Terra, he might get away with.

 General Kroll wrote:
"Captain McCaptainface, high Marshall of the third company was one of the imperiums finest swordsmen, swift of wit, and strong of forearm"

This is not a Mary Sue character at all. The idea of "Mary Sue" is for characters that go way beyond what is normal for other characters. It comes from fanfiction writers who wrote themselves into their favorite stories and made themselves the best at everything, loved by everyone, involved in all the major plot events, and generally making the canon main characters irrelevant background bits in the author's "look at how awesome I am" story. A Mary Sue isn't just good at something, they're good at lots of different things (even unrelated things that nobody could plausibly be that good at simultaneously) and have no meaningful weaknesses to compensate. And when they do have weaknesses to offset their god-like power they're weaknesses in name only, the kind of thing that makes them even more awesome ("I'm so busy with all these women who are throwing themselves at me that I have no time for saving the universe! Woe is me!") and not real unpleasant things.

A marine captain who is one of the Imperium's best swordsmen is just a normal marine character. Maybe they really are one of the best (in which case you should have a melee-focused chapter), maybe it's just the standard kind of hype that heroes always get. As long as you leave it at that and don't have them beating all of the major canon characters in sword duels you're probably going to be fine.

(And yes, the term "Mary Sue" is over-used to mean "I don't like this character". I wish people would stop doing that because that's not what it means.)

 General Kroll wrote:
Several years later they return from the purgatory of the warp to find they have been declared traitor, so they change their name and become loyalist renegades (if that makes sense) Fighting for the good of mankind, but without sanction from the Imperium. Striving to clear their name,mother wage a futile campaign in search of a "smoking gun" that they will likely never find.

No no no no no. This is the kind of thing that gets you labeled a Mary Sue. 40k is not a universe where idealists get to live, and certainly not ones where marines get to be idealists. Space marines are bloodthirsty killers, you point them in the direction of something you want destroyed and watch the slaughter. And loyalty to the Imperium is not about good intentions. You either obey, or you are the vilest of traitors to humanity and your soul is damned forever. Do not waste the Imperium's time with your feeble protests of innocence, if you have truly repented of your foul sins against humanity then you would submit yourself to the Imperium for the punishment you deserve (death, of course). By stubbornly defying the law of the Imperium for the sake of this crusade of personal vengeance you are no better than any other traitor. You are merely one of the countless deluded fools who forsake eternal life at the Emperor's side while telling themselves that their treason is small, and they have only taken the first steps on the path to damnation. And there shall be no mercy.

For an appropriate version of this look at the Badab War. The traitors thought that they were acting in the best interests of the Imperium, and yet they were still traitors and still consumed by Chaos. This is the path your chapter is on, fallen to Chaos but not sworn to any particular god.

 Peregrine wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
"Captain McCaptainface, high Marshall of the third company was one of the imperiums finest swordsmen, swift of wit, and strong of forearm"

This is not a Mary Sue character at all. The idea of "Mary Sue" is for characters that go way beyond what is normal for other characters. It comes from fanfiction writers who wrote themselves into their favorite stories and made themselves the best at everything, loved by everyone, involved in all the major plot events, and generally making the canon main characters irrelevant background bits in the author's "look at how awesome I am" story. A Mary Sue isn't just good at something, they're good at lots of different things (even unrelated things that nobody could plausibly be that good at simultaneously) and have no meaningful weaknesses to compensate. And when they do have weaknesses to offset their god-like power they're weaknesses in name only, the kind of thing that makes them even more awesome ("I'm so busy with all these women who are throwing themselves at me that I have no time for saving the universe! Woe is me!") and not real unpleasant things.

A marine captain who is one of the Imperium's best swordsmen is just a normal marine character. Maybe they really are one of the best (in which case you should have a melee-focused chapter), maybe it's just the standard kind of hype that heroes always get. As long as you leave it at that and don't have them beating all of the major canon characters in sword duels you're probably going to be fine.

(And yes, the term "Mary Sue" is over-used to mean "I don't like this character". I wish people would stop doing that because that's not what it means.)

 General Kroll wrote:
Several years later they return from the purgatory of the warp to find they have been declared traitor, so they change their name and become loyalist renegades (if that makes sense) Fighting for the good of mankind, but without sanction from the Imperium. Striving to clear their name,mother wage a futile campaign in search of a "smoking gun" that they will likely never find.

No no no no no. This is the kind of thing that gets you labeled a Mary Sue. 40k is not a universe where idealists get to live, and certainly not ones where marines get to be idealists. Space marines are bloodthirsty killers, you point them in the direction of something you want destroyed and watch the slaughter. And loyalty to the Imperium is not about good intentions. You either obey, or you are the vilest of traitors to humanity and your soul is damned forever. Do not waste the Imperium's time with your feeble protests of innocence, if you have truly repented of your foul sins against humanity then you would submit yourself to the Imperium for the punishment you deserve (death, of course). By stubbornly defying the law of the Imperium for the sake of this crusade of personal vengeance you are no better than any other traitor. You are merely one of the countless deluded fools who forsake eternal life at the Emperor's side while telling themselves that their treason is small, and they have only taken the first steps on the path to damnation. And there shall be no mercy.

For an appropriate version of this look at the Badab War. The traitors thought that they were acting in the best interests of the Imperium, and yet they were still traitors and still consumed by Chaos. This is the path your chapter is on, fallen to Chaos but not sworn to any particular god.

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying here this isn't a Badab situation. There hasn't been a war or a situation where my chapter has actually committed a crime, they haven't actually done anything. They've been framed. Like the A team

I've been a fan of Lukas Strifeson since I first started with the Space Mutts, he's every bit the Marine the rest of the Imperium sees when they think of the Space Wolves in general.
Irreverent.
Cunning.
Ferocious.
Heroic
Ironically enough the higher ranked Space Wolves hate him as much as the rest of the Imperium hates them.

Best way to avoid making a Mary Sue Character or Chapter is to start with a weakness rather than a strength.

And basically my chapter were a noble and arrogant force assigned to an area to ward off rebellion from local governors and such who felt they were far enough from Terra to get away without paying tithes and what not. Then while massing the chapters forces ready to take on an Ork Waaagh, they were caught up in a heinous incident that led to the wholesale massacre of a planets population in sacrifice to the dark gods. The ritual opened a warp rift that swallowed the chapters fleet, and thus they were conveniently blamed and punished for it in one go.

Several years later they return from the purgatory of the warp to find they have been declared traitor, so they change their name and become loyalist renegades (if that makes sense) Fighting for the good of mankind, but without sanction from the Imperium. Striving to clear their name,mother wage a futile campaign in search of a "smoking gun" that they will likely never find.

There hasn't been a war or a situation where my chapter has actually committed a crime, they haven't actually done anything. They've been framed. Like the A team

Still. They've been officially declared responsible for a warp rift and the massacre of a planet's population. As far as the Imperium is concerned, they're traitor heretic scum and should be executed before they can speak their pernicious lies (such as "you know if wasn't actually us, right?")

Several Years in the Warp is indeed a corrupting experience. coming out of that untainted is very, very hard.

More importantly, becoming loyalist renegades is more difficult than simply changing your name. Combat-ready astartes consume a staggering amount of resources, which you need to get from either the Imperium or somewhere else.

And how do you get it? Well, the easy answer is 'take it' - but that quickly turns loyalist renegade into actual renegade. The other way is to get someone to provide it....but the mechanicus won't turn over a hundred thousand rounds of mass-reactive ammo just because you have power armour with an aquilla on it. So how do you get them onside?

Alternatively, there are other renegades who do have a functioning supply chain - sourcing weapons from dark mechanicus forges like Samech, Xana and the Hollows....but you probably can't stay untainted long and still deal with places like that.

locarno24 wrote:

And basically my chapter were a noble and arrogant force assigned to an area to ward off rebellion from local governors and such who felt they were far enough from Terra to get away without paying tithes and what not. Then while massing the chapters forces ready to take on an Ork Waaagh, they were caught up in a heinous incident that led to the wholesale massacre of a planets population in sacrifice to the dark gods. The ritual opened a warp rift that swallowed the chapters fleet, and thus they were conveniently blamed and punished for it in one go.

Several years later they return from the purgatory of the warp to find they have been declared traitor, so they change their name and become loyalist renegades (if that makes sense) Fighting for the good of mankind, but without sanction from the Imperium. Striving to clear their name,mother wage a futile campaign in search of a "smoking gun" that they will likely never find.

There hasn't been a war or a situation where my chapter has actually committed a crime, they haven't actually done anything. They've been framed. Like the A team

Still. They've been officially declared responsible for a warp rift and the massacre of a planet's population. As far as the Imperium is concerned, they're traitor heretic scum and should be executed before they can speak their pernicious lies (such as "you know if wasn't actually us, right?")

Several Years in the Warp is indeed a corrupting experience. coming out of that untainted is very, very hard.

More importantly, becoming loyalist renegades is more difficult than simply changing your name. Combat-ready astartes consume a staggering amount of resources, which you need to get from either the Imperium or somewhere else.

And how do you get it? Well, the easy answer is 'take it' - but that quickly turns loyalist renegade into actual renegade. The other way is to get someone to provide it....but the mechanicus won't turn over a hundred thousand rounds of mass-reactive ammo just because you have power armour with an aquilla on it. So how do you get them onside?

Alternatively, there are other renegades who do have a functioning supply chain - sourcing weapons from dark mechanicus forges like Samech, Xana and the Hollows....but you probably can't stay untainted long and still deal with places like that.

Indeed, I'm still working out the creases of the story to be honest. There's going to be a lot of stuff like that I'm going to need to read up on. I don't want my guys to be actual renegades, for a start I'm working out of codex space marines and using standard space marine models. So there is that I'll get there in the end I'm sure. But I want to get it right.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't get worse than Grey Knights. Carry on.

 General Kroll wrote:
You're misinterpreting what I'm saying here this isn't a Badab situation. There hasn't been a war or a situation where my chapter has actually committed a crime, they haven't actually done anything. They've been framed. Like the A team

The Imperium does not give a about your feeble excuses for treason and heresy. If you were truly innocent you would submit yourself to the Imperium for punishment (death, of course) and take comfort in the fact that the pain of death is but a trivial thing compared to your soul's eternity at the side of the Emperor. By refusing Imperial law and not submitting you are traitors, even if you "didn't do anything" originally. As with most servants of Chaos you have come up with all kinds of excuses for why your betrayal is good or even necessary, but in the end it is still the path of damnation.

 Peregrine wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
You're misinterpreting what I'm saying here this isn't a Badab situation. There hasn't been a war or a situation where my chapter has actually committed a crime, they haven't actually done anything. They've been framed. Like the A team

The Imperium does not give a about your feeble excuses for treason and heresy. If you were truly innocent you would submit yourself to the Imperium for punishment (death, of course) and take comfort in the fact that the pain of death is but a trivial thing compared to your soul's eternity at the side of the Emperor. By refusing Imperial law and not submitting you are traitors, even if you "didn't do anything" originally. As with most servants of Chaos you have come up with all kinds of excuses for why your betrayal is good or even necessary, but in the end it is still the path of damnation.

It's fine, space Jesus forgives.

O wait.

 Selym wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
You're misinterpreting what I'm saying here this isn't a Badab situation. There hasn't been a war or a situation where my chapter has actually committed a crime, they haven't actually done anything. They've been framed. Like the A team

The Imperium does not give a about your feeble excuses for treason and heresy. If you were truly innocent you would submit yourself to the Imperium for punishment (death, of course) and take comfort in the fact that the pain of death is but a trivial thing compared to your soul's eternity at the side of the Emperor. By refusing Imperial law and not submitting you are traitors, even if you "didn't do anything" originally. As with most servants of Chaos you have come up with all kinds of excuses for why your betrayal is good or even necessary, but in the end it is still the path of damnation.

It's fine, space Jesus forgives.

O wait.

Great. Now I have tea coming out of my nose.

It's not the worst fluff in the world. You're not female space marines or one of the missing legions.

Does anyone else have armor coated in the blood of Sisters of Battle? No. Grey Knights are the worst.

To be frank, alot of the canon Chapters like the Grey Knights or Space Wolves would be scathingly criticized as Mary Sues if they had been submitted as fan made homebrew chapters.

locarno24 wrote:

Still. They've been officially declared responsible for a warp rift and the massacre of a planet's population. As far as the Imperium is concerned, they're traitor heretic scum and should be executed before they can speak their pernicious lies (such as "you know if wasn't actually us, right?")

Depends if they have enough high-ranking friends in the Inquisition to get that ignored. After all, the Space Wolves killed a Grey Knight Grand Master and a high-ranking Inquisitor Lord and they eventually got off it with what amounted to a wagging finger. Much of that due to having Inquisitorial allies of their own. Neither the Imperium or the Inquisition is politically united. In particular the Inquisition has a multitude of competing political factions.

Now granted, them being a famous First-Founding Chapter probably does also play a part in that role, but I think I get my point across. Even if they did commit those crimes, the Imperium is surprisingly lenient to not go for an immediate execution. Take the Mantis Warriors, Executioners and Lamenters, who where regulated to Penitence Crusades instead of mass execution.
Short of outright worshiping Chaos, a Chapte might be able to get away with it provided they have enough politically influential friends. (Might being the key word, as it's probably best to look at this on a case by case basis)

I have an imperal guard army of pure bloods.

The devil comes bringing gifts and good tidings in order for your defense to drop.

The mutant giant known as the emperor to the weak came and brought an end to the time of man.

He is but a warp spawned daemon refusing to be sent back to the warp for his punishment. He attempted to cleanse the galaxy of life and only those who worshiped him would be left a single chaos god. He spawned monsters from his cursed blood then cross bred their genes with human children to serve only him.

Only by killing all posesed humans those you call space marines can the galaxy truly be saved. For any being touched by their sin or believes them for anything other then what they have become are tainted aswell. Those who can not walk the passage of rightiousness must be cleansed before their taint drags others off the true path of peace. Then the time of man shall come again where mankind may walk side by side with those of our creations the meachines.

Mechanium and man shall become one and the time of inlightenment shall return. All will be known once more, for only that which the daemon king banned can ever truely end his essence.

Moto death to the freaks and the suns of a daemon.

Main trait fire weapons which pureify the dead by removing all taint from the host. Forgiveness and purity can be re obtained by the cleansing of fire. You shall be remade into what you where suppose to be pure and uncorrupt from the taint placed apon you.

 General Kroll wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
"Captain McCaptainface, high Marshall of the third company was one of the imperiums finest swordsmen, swift of wit, and strong of forearm"

This is not a Mary Sue character at all. The idea of "Mary Sue" is for characters that go way beyond what is normal for other characters. It comes from fanfiction writers who wrote themselves into their favorite stories and made themselves the best at everything, loved by everyone, involved in all the major plot events, and generally making the canon main characters irrelevant background bits in the author's "look at how awesome I am" story. A Mary Sue isn't just good at something, they're good at lots of different things (even unrelated things that nobody could plausibly be that good at simultaneously) and have no meaningful weaknesses to compensate. And when they do have weaknesses to offset their god-like power they're weaknesses in name only, the kind of thing that makes them even more awesome ("I'm so busy with all these women who are throwing themselves at me that I have no time for saving the universe! Woe is me!") and not real unpleasant things.

A marine captain who is one of the Imperium's best swordsmen is just a normal marine character. Maybe they really are one of the best (in which case you should have a melee-focused chapter), maybe it's just the standard kind of hype that heroes always get. As long as you leave it at that and don't have them beating all of the major canon characters in sword duels you're probably going to be fine.

(And yes, the term "Mary Sue" is over-used to mean "I don't like this character". I wish people would stop doing that because that's not what it means.)

 General Kroll wrote:
Several years later they return from the purgatory of the warp to find they have been declared traitor, so they change their name and become loyalist renegades (if that makes sense) Fighting for the good of mankind, but without sanction from the Imperium. Striving to clear their name,mother wage a futile campaign in search of a "smoking gun" that they will likely never find.

No no no no no. This is the kind of thing that gets you labeled a Mary Sue. 40k is not a universe where idealists get to live, and certainly not ones where marines get to be idealists. Space marines are bloodthirsty killers, you point them in the direction of something you want destroyed and watch the slaughter. And loyalty to the Imperium is not about good intentions. You either obey, or you are the vilest of traitors to humanity and your soul is damned forever. Do not waste the Imperium's time with your feeble protests of innocence, if you have truly repented of your foul sins against humanity then you would submit yourself to the Imperium for the punishment you deserve (death, of course). By stubbornly defying the law of the Imperium for the sake of this crusade of personal vengeance you are no better than any other traitor. You are merely one of the countless deluded fools who forsake eternal life at the Emperor's side while telling themselves that their treason is small, and they have only taken the first steps on the path to damnation. And there shall be no mercy.

For an appropriate version of this look at the Badab War. The traitors thought that they were acting in the best interests of the Imperium, and yet they were still traitors and still consumed by Chaos. This is the path your chapter is on, fallen to Chaos but not sworn to any particular god.

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying here this isn't a Badab situation. There hasn't been a war or a situation where my chapter has actually committed a crime, they haven't actually done anything. They've been framed. Like the A team

"There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty." - Inquisitor Karamazov

Does anyone else have armor coated in the blood of Sisters of Battle? No. Grey Knights are the worst.

The worst thing is, that's perfectly in keeping with character, if only it had been better written and explained rather than used as a throwaway line which made both sides sound stupid.

The Justicar Alaric short story 'Sacrifice' has something very similar any yet infinitely better written.

I have generally found that the best way to avoid making a character a Mary Sue is to make them human, with all the complexities that entails.

For 40k, this is true for chapters too. A chapter is a character in its own right, separate and apart from its individual members, with a culture and way of dealing with things that give it a personality. Treat it like another character in the story you want to tell, including asking "why is this here? What does it contribute to the overall story".

By contrast, I always get annoyed when fanchapters are TOO human. Space Marines gave up their humanity to become living weapons, and authors of all kind taking that away is frequently why I look down upon them.

 Melissia wrote:
By contrast, I always get annoyed when fanchapters are TOO human. Space Marines gave up their humanity to become living weapons, and authors of all kind taking that away is frequently why I look down upon them.

That was part of the reasoning behind the thinking of my original post. Shouldn't there be a little bombastic ego in every space marine? A little arrogance and God like wonderment?

I was more thinking about Thaddeus' change in personality over the course of Dawn of War 2. The young assault marine sergeant loses some of his human qualities, some of his passion and enthusiasm, and instead becomes more professional and aloof to humanity over time, dedicating himself more wholly to his duties (at least in the canon ending) than he was at the start.

I like Dawn of War II and Chaos Rising because it manages to write Space Marines very well - they are evidently quite varied, but that variety comes from a very different starting point.

Power is very corrupting, and knowing no fear does not mean that you know no arrogance - quite the contrary.

Also good to remember that marine morality is fery honour centric. Betraying your brothers, even the ones you hate for the sake of all humanity is a VERY serious problem to them.