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This thread is silly.
The fact that I come in here to just say that this thread is silly is also silly.
Also, Superman really needs to do something about that horrible greasy hair of his. And someone tell him that that hairstyle went out of fashion about 50 years ago. And that Batman is just way cooler.

 oldzoggy wrote:
I like the approach of fire upon the deep look it up for f you haven't read it it makes perfect sense to limit the abilities of powers to a local reality. Importing 40k marines into supermans space probably somewhere in the beyond would not end well at all. Just try to imagine a librarian in fast time they would practically become friction less conduits for the warp powers.

But my approach was also an attempt too weed out all the unlikely / boosty crap some weaker writers have put in their stories. If we include that mess then the only thing that matters would be who would write the story.

So... let's nerf superman until the Space Marines have a hope at beating him?

In which case, they still can't beat Superman, because they needed us to place artificial restrictions on him to do so.

Space Marines cannot defeat Superman. So they call in the ULTRAMARINES!

Superman uses FTL Punch!

Ultramarine counters with Indestructible Plot Armour!

Unstopable Force has met Immovable Object!

K lets have it your way and include all the bat gak insane obscure stuff writers have ever written about them.

Superman a would be a power. He is invincible to all but kryptonite and faster than light. The moment super man starts to eradicate the vermin that is the IoM will spell the final doom for it. Space marines will fall, planets will crumble and in a few hours the entire IoM is thing if the past.

But wait things go both ways. The tzeentch will notice this tragedy and thus has from that moment always known of it. Giving him from before the beginning of time to plan ahead for it and prevent the fall of chaos. Preparing those space marines who are first to meet him with kryptonite armour and shells without them even knowing what it is good for.

Etc. Etc.
You see this include all the nonsense you can find is no fun at all

 oldzoggy wrote:
Space marines will fall, planets will crumble and in a few hours

Nope.

99.9999% of planets function just fine without Space Marines, and are defended just fine without Space Marines.

This all needs a little background, why are they fighting in the first place? What's the objective? etc.

For example: If Space Marines came to DC earth, and they're doing a little information gathering. . .

SM Commander: "So, you have an alien superpower defending your planet?"

Knowledgeable Citizen: "That's right. He's tough as balls and almost no weaknesses."

"Almost no weaknesses?"

"Well, except for Kryptonite."

"And where can I find this. . . 'Kryptonite?"

In that case they'd also have to deal with the other thousands of super-powerful beings defending Earth... and the ones beyond Earth, too, and the villains, and so on and so forth. It's kind of a wash really, and something which even dedicated writers would have a tough time handling.

 Melissia wrote:
In that case they'd also have to deal with the other thousands of super-powerful beings defending Earth... and the ones beyond Earth, too, and the villains, and so on and so forth. It's kind of a wash really, and something which even dedicated writers would have a tough time handling.

Well, the given scenario is Superman Vs. Space Marines, Not all the DC universe etc.vs. Space Marines.

If the objective is just to get superman, and there's kryptonite around, that's were things get interesting.

It doesn't get interesting even then. It's a VS matchup between two wildly different characters from two wildly different settings with wildly different outlooks.

Hell, the only reason they might even begin to stand a chance is that Superman wouldn't immediately try to kill. And even then, even IF they get kryptonite... Superman already has access to armor that protects him from its radiation-- created with technology far beyond the Imperium's, at that. If they're allowed to have time to find out Superman's weakness, then why wouldn't Supes have time to counter it?

It's just another boring "superman vs x" discussion that kind of defeats the purpose of Superman to begin with. Superman at his best is not about him punching things to death. Superman is about the struggle about what is the right thing to do, whether or not he is doing it correctly, and standing up for justice as an otherworldly protector of innocents and the defenseless. In fact, his best comic-book appearances often don't have him fighting at all.

Well, that's why context and circumstances matter. Look, if Gene Hackman can foil Superman by putting Kryptonite in a lead box, the Sup can be duped. Which is why Lex is a great foil for him in the first place. You don't fight Superman with strength.

But your last point is spot on. Focusing on "Superman is HUURR" is totally beside the point. His dilemmas are usually about morality.

However, that's also why it gets interesting. It's totally against his nature to start off the encounter with wanton slaughter.

But you also have to remember that in this kind of narrative, ultimately, Superman wins, while ultimately, within the 40k narrative the Astartes will fail and falter-- either falling to chaos, or fighting a futile battle against the ravages of time to defend an aging empire.

Even when superman dies (spoiler: it's happened a few times by now), he still wins in the end. And then comes back, usually better than before.

A more interesting DC vs 40K battle would be Batfamily vs Genestealers, heh.

 oldzoggy wrote:
I like the approach of fire upon the deep look it up for f you haven't read it it makes perfect sense to limit the abilities of powers to a local reality. Importing 40k marines into supermans space probably somewhere in the beyond would not end well at all. Just try to imagine a librarian in fast time they would practically become friction less conduits for the warp powers.

But my approach was also an attempt too weed out all the unlikely / boosty crap some weaker writers have put in their stories. If we include that mess then the only thing that matters would be who would write the story.

It's silly to start artificially decide on what abilities to remove from SM. That works both way. Fine you limit SM's abilities. Let's limit space marine abilities as well. No warp for them either then.

Okay so now we have space marines with no psychic powers and no FTL for them either.

There. Both were nerfed.

Are you space marine fan boy or what if you are limiting just super man and not space marines? Why space marines are given free pass of nerfbat while super man is nerfed? Tells just that you are desperate for space marines to win.

It isn't about nerfing or anything like that. Nor do I have a fetish for glorified space barbarians. Its about seeing the powers in the context of an environment. Sure a hawk is fast but will he be faster then a sea turtle in the depths of the sea. No of course not he will drown.

I like to apply the same mindset to issues like these. Superman is da bomb gak in a world that has no limiting laws of nature. The 40k universe does. The max speed of light is a constant and a limiting factor on anything in the universe. Noting can escape it without cheating reality by vanishing into an other dimension. He can still fire lazors with his eyes and evaporate any space marine in sight without ever having to fear regular weapons. The book "a fire upon the deep"goes into a similar situation and I really like their approach.

I just can't go for the alternative, and somehow make superman immune to all the laws of nature of the 40k universe. It opens up the nonsensical but my side can do X type of discussions that are incredibly boring.

But I will give an other go at it for your amusement.
Lets assume that SuperMan is the coolest guy that has ever existed and somehow immune to the laws of nature he will even be able to travel back in time as long as he isn't near his mythical kryptonite. This immediately opens up the time travel paradox for both sides have some control over the past and would eventually be forced to use this control.

We have 3 actors in this story.
The man himself, with a fixed birth date and the ability to travel back and forth in time.
Warp based powers who are beyond time and have no defined birth time anymore their birth rewrites history making them to have been always there.
And there are puny space marine pawns who will just die and are in over their heads.

From this moment on there are only 2 options as far as I see it.
Option 1: Superman behaves, some marines die but that's it. The powers don't mind and anything goes as planned.

Option 2: Superman doesn't behave and starts to seriously annoy some powers. The powers fight back starting an arms race. Superman will eventually use his time travel powers to undo some of the nasty stuff, and the powers will react by making sure that superman was never born. He can't do the same so depending on your favorite time travel paradox paradigm superman will never have been in the 40k universe or will not do any further damage.

When your premise is "Superman does not get most of his powers" it is not really Superman vs Space Marines.
Rather, it is "Nerfed Superman: Can Space Maribes beat that?"

 oldzoggy wrote:
It isn't about nerfing or anything like that. Nor do I have a fetish for glorified space barbarians. Its about seeing the powers in the context of an environment. Sure a hawk is fast but will he be faster then a sea turtle in the depths of the sea. No of course not he will drown.

I like to apply the same mindset to issues like these. Superman is da bomb gak in a world that has no limiting laws of nature. The 40k universe does. The max speed of light is a constant and a limiting factor on anything in the universe. Noting can escape it without cheating reality by vanishing into an other dimension. He can still fire lazors with his eyes and evaporate any space marine in sight without ever having to fear regular weapons. The book "a fire upon the deep"goes into a similar situation and I really like their approach.

Both Tyranids and Necrons have FTL that does not use the Warp. Potentially the Tau do as well.

I'd ignore the time travel myself. It's incredibly rare that Superman is described as being able to do it. Not sure if it's been done since the Silver Age actually. We really need to decide on a consistent Superman to use.

Do those drives work by just going really fast in real space or do they still use some sort of dimensional trickery ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as I know of do they use the folliwing methods.

Tau: Reverse engineered warp engines and do small navigator free semi warp jumps.

Tyranids: are supposed to have some sort of obscure fluff about bending space time and creating corridors in it to move from point a to point b.
I have no idea at all why they don't use this as a weapon if they would really be capable to do this, but hey.

Necrons: Are parasiteing on the web way, in a crude and risky way.

Non are just going really fast and violating the speed of light as far as I know of/

 oldzoggy wrote:
Do those drives work by just going really fast in real space or do they still use some sort of dimensional trickery ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as I know of do they use the folliwing methods.

Tau: Reverse engineered warp engines and do small navigator free semi warp jumps.

Tyranids: are supposed to have some sort of obscure fluff about bending space time and creating corridors in it to move from point a to point b.
I have no idea at all why they don't use this as a weapon if they would really be capable to do this, but hey.

Necrons: Are parasiteing on the web way, in a crude and risky way.

Non are just going really fast and violating the speed of light as far as I know of/

The Slaugth are noted as having a method of interstellar travel that doesn't use the warp.

Yes but so do all the eldar races. Do the Slaugth just go very fast or do they also have a secret way of cheating realspace ?

Honestly, it's left rather vague, the only thing we know is that they can travel interstellar without using either of the other existing methods.

The Slaugth are a very high-tech race, though, it should be noted, possibly even better than the Eldar in certain fields.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Do those drives work by just going really fast in real space or do they still use some sort of dimensional trickery ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as I know of do they use the folliwing methods.

Tau: Reverse engineered warp engines and do small navigator free semi warp jumps.

Tyranids: are supposed to have some sort of obscure fluff about bending space time and creating corridors in it to move from point a to point b.
I have no idea at all why they don't use this as a weapon if they would really be capable to do this, but hey.

Necrons: Are parasiteing on the web way, in a crude and risky way.

Non are just going really fast and violating the speed of light as far as I know of/

Warp travel for the Tau is not mentioned in the 6th Edition Codex if I recall correctly. Considering the Necrons apparently can't use Warp travel because they have no Psykers whether the Tau still use short dips is up for debate.

Tyranid Narvhals work by latching onto a planets gravity and drawing themselves (and the rest of the fleet) towards it somehow. This has a side effect of increasing the numbers of earthquakes, volcanic eruptions etc) on the planet they've connected to.

Necrons still have the Inertialess Drives. How they work wasn't elaborated on as far as I know but it's not Warp related.

Superman breaks the laws of physics just by being able to fly as far as I know. Unless you strip away almost all of his powers he's going to breaking the laws of physics. 40K does that a lot anyway so I don't really see the problem.

Is Matt Ward writing the fight?

 The_Grey_Knight wrote:
Is Matt Ward writing the fight?

If he is, Superman wins until the ULTRAMARINES consult their codex, and we learn that Girlyman foresaw this sort of encounter and has a perfect counter-strategyvthat nobidy else in the universe could have thought of. Long, terribly written, story short: Rawbutt returns to save everyone and makes the ULTRAMARINES even more perfect than before.

Superman dies from a single punch from Rowboat, who just so happens to have Kryptonite knuckle braces.

 Melissia wrote:
But you also have to remember that in this kind of narrative, ultimately, Superman wins, while ultimately, within the 40k narrative the Astartes will fail and falter-- either falling to chaos, or fighting a futile battle against the ravages of time to defend an aging empire.

Even when superman dies (spoiler: it's happened a few times by now), he still wins in the end. And then comes back, usually better than before. .

Truly, I don't understand the logic here. It sounds suspiciously like "Superman wins because Superman." Which isn't unlike "Ultramarines win because Ultramarines" or whatever.

If the reasoning is more that Superman wins in the DC universe because that's the narrative of the DC universe. . . that Superman HAS to triumph because of what he stands for. (is that what you're saying?) Then I suppose that could be the case for a battle in the DC universe.

But then the flipside is the 40K universe, which you could take in a couple of ways. (I disagree with the notion that Space Marines are ultimately destined to fail, btw.) But if we were to take 40K as the pessimistic lack of hope, where any individual is eventually overrun by the galaxy at large and the straining leviathan that is the Imperium, then Superman, as a beacon of hope, HAS to fail. His story turns into one of a nameless Chapters hard fought battle with a powerful xenos, who wasn't destroyed but trapped on a world with arcane technologies, and left in a backwater and quarantined corner of the galaxy. One of those quips in those 40K "timelines". Because of the 40K narrative, that's all he counts for, a footnote.

Another interpretation of 40K is that Space Marines, despite all their crude faults, are still a triumph of human ingenuity. The narrative is that they win because they are still an agent of science and reason, even if existing in an otherwise tremendously ignorant society at large. In the 40K verse, humanity can't look to aliens to be their savior, the have to struggle through it themselves the hard way.

 oldzoggy wrote:
The book "a fire upon the deep"goes into a similar situation and I really like their approach.

I read that one two years ago and it left a mark. One of my favorite reads of recent years, the 'Blight' was a great nemesis.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Truly, I don't understand the logic here.

Yes, I can tell.

Simply put: I was discussing the narratives of DCU vs 40k. One is one of rising heroics, the other one is of declining heroics. This is relevant because people keep bringing up more and more ways in which some Space Marine or other obtains kryptonite-- ignoring the fact that even when Superman's enemies DO obtain Kryptonite, even when they DO kill him, he comes back and wins anyway. Because that's the narrative of the DCU.

The heroes of the DCU are always struggling to be greater, and succeed time and again. Great feats of heroism push the world to greater heights, and only more and more deadly, clever, and/or unpredictable foes can upset the new status quo. Its list of heroes is growing, as is their deeds and accomplishments-- and when just one dies, it's a major event. Because they're not supposed to. They face unimaginable odds and succeed-- perhaps imperfectly, perhaps temporarily, perhaps only eventually, but they succeed nonetheless. When the villains win, it's a shocking and rare event-- and often gets overturned rather quickly, if not instantly.

By contrast, the Imperium of Man is in decline. Its heroes die by the billion, nameless and forgotten. Its legends fade away in to the annals of time as either corpses who fought against overwhelming odds and held off as long as they could... or as nefarious, corrupted criminals who seek to destroy all that is good about humanity. Even the Ultramarines suffer this, having lost so much in the Tyrannic wars that they're a pale shadow of what they used to be. Just comparing 30k to 40k shows this much. The villains usually win, which is why the Imperium is slowly, inevitably shrinking.

The thread has basically ended up being "well let's see how we can twist the situation to ensure Superman loses", and ultimately, that's pointless, a little bit mean-spirited, and does a disservice to both Superman and the Astartes.

How about Kryptonite, the deadliest venom known to man and cryostas- ah wait, think that's been done before...

Also since when did Superman vs. Space Marines need 3 pages of discussion?

What if the BLHUD RHEVERNS steal Superman's powers?

Even in the DC universe, that's gotta be an issue.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Superman breaks the laws of physics just by being able to fly as far as I know. Unless you strip away almost all of his powers he's going to breaking the laws of physics. 40K does that a lot anyway so I don't really see the problem.

Breaking minor stuff such as flying heroes etc doesn't really matter in most settings.
Breaking the limiting factor of the speed of light does since it is a major theme of most good syfi and the 40k setting.
Space is very big, no empire can exist without intergalactic travel but no known force can escape the slowness of realspace thus all races have to go to great lengths in order to cheat it. Humans even travel trough hell in order to overcome it.
Being able to just go very fast isn't breaking some insignificant laws of nature it is breaking the setting.

Who do you think Roboute Gulliman actually is anyway?

 Llamahead wrote:
Who do you think Roboute Gulliman actually is anyway?

The most perfectest strategist ever. He is able to predict every move Superman makes before Superman makes them.

 Selym wrote:

 Llamahead wrote:
Who do you think Roboute Gulliman actually is anyway?

The most perfectest strategist ever. He is able to predict every move Superman makes before Superman makes them.

In fact he already has. It's one of the more obscure chapters of the Codex Astartes.