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Imperial Guard < Sisters of Battle/ Militarum Tempestus < Space Marines < Deathwatch < Grey Knights < Custodes < Primarchs < Emperor.

Elite just means small and specialised.

Deathwatch are basically space marine veterans generally with experience with Xenos hunting. Selected by individual chapters

Grey Knights are space marines with strong psychic abilities. They are drafted not chosen by the grey Knights and then treated with the genome of the emperor. It's heavily Matt warded into fan spank.

All of the above chapters get whatever the heck they want because they are regularly drafted by the inqusition who can do whatever the feck the want.

Custodes are like space marines on steroids however I don't think they have psychic abilities.

I'm still waiting for GW to flesh out the ordo heretic then we can see the other elite of the elite group. There is absolutely no way Saint Celeste is equivilant to imperial guardsmen. IMHO sisters of battle will likely be the reformed sisters of silence but that's like the only way ordo heretic would be on par with the other two ordos. Ffs sister harroda solo'd a greater demon of khorne in the warp. I'm not saying every sister of battle is goihg to be a progeny of sister of silence but I fully suspect some of the godlike leaders are.

BlueGrassGamer wrote:
And I think, in the fluff at least, the Storm Troopers have been replaced by the Tempestus Scions.

That fluff is utter garbage, even by 7th edition standards, and can be safely ignored.

 Peregrine wrote:

BlueGrassGamer wrote:
And I think, in the fluff at least, the Storm Troopers have been replaced by the Tempestus Scions.

That fluff is utter garbage, even by 7th edition standards, and can be safely ignored.

It could be worse. Matt Ward could have put Samurai Jack in that book too.

But trying to make broad generalizations about whether the Deathwatch as a whole is cooler/fancier/scarier than other Space Marines is a weird question, because of how much overlap there is. The Deathwatch doesn't have Scouts because they recruit from already-trained people, but their veterans aren't particularly different from veterans of service in their home Chapter, and last I checked Deathwatch veterans usually go home at the end of their time in service. The Deathwatch are specialized for a different task, in a way that doesn't make them 'better' or 'worse'; they've got nicer personal-scale kit and small arms, but they don't have a lot of the armour and fancy ordnance.

I wouldn't say they're an elite of the elite. Sure they specialise in killing xeno's.... but I doubt they're better than a chapter that has been fighting a specific xeno species, such as orks, for a few hundred years.

I generally get the feeling they're just a specific force that worries with the most serious xeno threats and doesn't have to worry about anything else, such as heretic or entire fronts.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
I wouldn't say they're an elite of the elite. Sure they specialise in killing xeno's.... but I doubt they're better than a chapter that has been fighting a specific xeno species, such as orks, for a few hundred years.

I generally get the feeling they're just a specific force that worries with the most serious xeno threats and doesn't have to worry about anything else, such as heretic or entire fronts.

Every encounter breeds a new challenge and knowledge has a habit of getting lost in the IoM. They need all the help they can get. Deathwatch does deal with heretics as well as the xenos. Some parts of the Imperium end up worshipping a xenos race.

One chapter will not have the same level of experience as another.

The Deathwatch were always an elite force. Hence why are are allowed access to special equipment and resources That has always been the case since the earliest days of the lore.

"On uncounted battlefields, the servants of the Emperor must wage war against the vileness of alien creatures. Often the first, last and only line of defence against these abominations are mysterious figures in black powered armour who fight the aliens with preternatural skill and dedication. With the battle over, these figures vanish as quickly as they arrived, leaving no trace of the creatures they fought or that they were even there at all. These men are the Imperium's highly trained alien fighters. They are the Deathwatch.

"In battle, each team normally comes under the authority of an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, but, in some exceptional cases, a Deathwatch Captain or Librarian may assume command if circumstances dictate. Their authority is absolute and none dare question their word. The commander of a Deathwatch detachment may freely requisition forces and equipment without a word of complaint being raised against him. The Deathwatch have access to the very best equipment, both Imperial and alien, and are trained to the highest standards." -Index Astartes: Deathwatch.

I'm not sure where this idea that they are a bunch of Suicide Squad-type misfits comes from. If people are confused about the lore then Fantasy Flight Games offers a very extensive look into the Deathwatch's organization and training. Certainly individual marines might have different reasons for joining the Deathwatch (Black Shields for example) but the organization as a whole is an elite anti-xenos organization. It would defeat their purpose if they where more like a penal legion instead.

It's reflected of course on the tabletop as well. In past editions the Deathwatch Kill-Teams where an Elite choice with access to special wargear. In the new Codex their basic troops have the equivalent statline of the Sternguard units from the Vanilla Codex.

 Kojiro wrote:

Oh for sure they do. Now. But that's a consequence of Ward and power creep. As I said, originally they were a group of marines attached to the Inquisition specifically to oppose Chaos. There's even old fluff that talks about how most GKs are explicitly not psychic. And the old integrated bolter was a literall 3 shot record your ammo bolt weapon.

No, it's quite the opposite actually. That was the lore since 3rd edition at the very least.

"The Grey Knights are fully as effective as any other Marine Chapter. They are specially screened to exclude all but the strongest and most resilient psykers, a measure designed to prevent any Daemonic contamination. As a result, few of the Grey Knights have any psychic power whatsoever. Their training and surgery rituals are, if anything, more demanding than those of 'ordinary' Marine units.

Recruits are conditioned to ignore pain and fear, and undergo neurosurgery to isolate and bypass their fear centers. They are exposed to wild psykers, mutants and deviants of every kind. They are trained to destroy them without conscious thought. This training produces a rigidly disciplined and controlled mind to which the presence of Daemons is less of a shock than for normal beings. Their lives are ones of self-denial and spartan purity, filled with rituals to strengthen the mind and the heart against the horrors they must face. The Grey Knights are also imbued with a zeal and purpose to dwarf that of any other Marine Chapter. Often entire companies are granted an audience with the Emperor, a privilege normally reserved for the Adeptus Custodes. To date these extraordinary measures have been effective: in over 10,000 years of combat against the forces of darkness, not one Grey Knight has faltered in battle or betrayed the Emperor in word or deed.

Added to this spirit is the finest equipment in the Imperium. The Grey Knights are given only the best Marine equipment, with battle-proven and improved designs being given to them before any other Marine unit." -Index Astartes Grey Knights

Codex: Daemonhunters has much of the same lore incidentally. I hope that clears things up.

*Ahem* Artemis was already in the Deathwatch when his arm came off.

Baldeagle91 wrote:I wouldn't say they're an elite of the elite. Sure they specialise in killing xeno's.... but I doubt they're better than a chapter that has been fighting a specific xeno species, such as orks, for a few hundred years.

I generally get the feeling they're just a specific force that worries with the most serious xeno threats and doesn't have to worry about anything else, such as heretic or entire fronts.

Until you consider that the Deatwatch has pretty much been around since M32. They're pretty much the alien hunting experts - unless there is a Chapter that's been around since M32 and has catalogued Orks for their entire existence, there is no equal to the Deathwatch.
Plus, seeing as Chapter skills and knowledge is passed on through Deathwatch service, the moment one brother from this ork killing Chapter joins the Deathwatch, their Ork knowledge is passed on into the Deathwatch as a data file.

Deathwatch troops also deal with general threats, much like how the Grey Knights will fight xenos if commanded. If a Kill Team is needed, it will be done. The heretics may be aliens worshipping the Chaos Gods, or Chaos forces are stopping an attack against a xenos foe.
There's a cool storyline in a Deathwatch RPG splatbook which has you invade a Daemon World to prevent Chaos troops attacking the system your Watch Fortress is based in.

Gree wrote:<snip>

THIS.

The Suicide Squad aspect of the Deathwatch has never been around in their old fluff. The old fluff, and the FFG lore, paints them as some of the best Space Marines in the Imperium, and are considered to be somewhat above a normal Marine if they served in the Deathwatch. It's a massive honour. They're the best alienhunters in the Imperium, pretty much. That's their shtick.

 Kojiro wrote:
Oh for sure they do. Now. But that's a consequence of Ward and power creep.

They've been that way since at least Codex Daemon Hunters, Ward has nothing to do with it.

So death watch is like Anti Xeno summer school?

a very exclusive private one?

Gree wrote:No, it's quite the opposite actually. That was the lore since 3rd edition at the very least.

Animus wrote:
They've been that way since at least Codex Daemon Hunters, Ward has nothing to do with it.

I was referring to their original appearance in Lost and the Damned and the Compilation. Back when they looked like this:

That's right, even the mighty Grey Knights were Toughness 3. These are specialist marines. What you have now are just better marines. If that's not power (and fluff) creep I don't know what is.

 Kojiro wrote:

I was referring to their original appearance in Lost and the Damned and the Compilation. Back when they looked like this:

That's right, even the mighty Grey Knights were Toughness 3. These are specialist marines. What you have now are just better marines. If that's not power (and fluff) creep I don't know what is.

Ah, the first edition depiction. Well it's hardly only the Grey Knights that changed heavily since Lost and the Damned. Of course modern Grey Knights are also only Toughness 4. Where regular Space Marines only Toughness 3 as well back then?

If you want to complain about the Grey Knights not matching up to their very original depiction, then I suppose that's your prerogative as a poster, but you might be a little late to the party. As I mentioned, the Grey Knights have been like this since 2003. It's not a recent development nor is it something that was mostly Ward.

 Kojiro wrote:

Gree wrote:No, it's quite the opposite actually. That was the lore since 3rd edition at the very least.

Animus wrote:
They've been that way since at least Codex Daemon Hunters, Ward has nothing to do with it.

I was referring to their original appearance in Lost and the Damned and the Compilation. Back when they looked like this:

That's right, even the mighty Grey Knights were Toughness 3. These are specialist marines. What you have now are just better marines. If that's not power (and fluff) creep I don't know what is.

Hard to call Grey Knights on power creep. They've gotten drastically worse as GW tried to bring them down to normal levels and realized taking the Daemonhunters' specialist melee squads and trying to build a Codex out of just them doesn't work very well. (I will also note they were WS/BS5 and all came in Terminator armour back then, apparently)

For sure, the GKs are not alone in suffering 'MOAR ELITE!!!1!' but they are a pet peeve of mine, hence the grumbling. They were- to me- far better as marines who stood a chance against Chaos than marines who murderdeathkill Chaos. It cheapens both the GKs heroism and the horror of Chaos. It's like in Supernatural, where in the first seasons the idea of killing a demon requires some legendary, nigh unique weapon but by season 10 they're knocking off 5 or 6 an episode. Demons ain't what they used to be, which is an odd statement about immortal creatures.

And yeah, regular marines were T3 too (another reason bolters were fierce weapons!). That old 40k will always be my 40k (look at my sig for my army!). Partly nostalgia I'm sure but eh, that's what I got.

But seriously, 1200 points for 5 guys, T3 with 1 wound? 240pts a man? You didn't field them against orks for good freaking reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
(I will also note they were WS/BS5 and all came in Terminator armour back then, apparently)

There were PA GKs back then but they were more or less normal marines with +1 Ld. Back then all terminators came with WS/BS 5, not just GKs.

Back then the Ultramarines also had an half-eldar astropath as their chief librarian and Tyranids used lasguns.

Much has changed, and what was true then is not really relevant anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Imperial Guard < Sisters of Battle/ Militarum Tempestus < Space Marines < Deathwatch < Grey Knights < Custodes < Primarchs < Emperor.

This is about right, although as said, Custodes specialise in 1v1 and Grey Knights likely pull ahead of them in teamfights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
It's not just a problem for IG fans, it's a problem for everyone. Space marines don't feel elite anymore, they're just cannon fodder compared to the real elites. And it's boring fluff as well, when a new marine thing is defined as "like all the other marine things, except 200% more elite". It's like small children arguing about which superhero is better: "well batman is clearly 100000 power" vs. "but superman is 1000000000000000000 power". If GW would stop using "THEY ARE SO MUCH MORE ELITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!" as the lazy way of hyping every new thing we'd have much better fluff.

It's only a problem because you are used to settings where everyone is reasonably equal, such as historical ones.

40k is not even close to maxing out its possible power scaling - Gretchin and human civilians may be near the bottom, but things like the Culture are evidence that there is plenty of room for 40k to fit in more powerful things without breaking the story.

And as also said, Deathwatch are a highly established part of the setting; that they are very good at what they do is not something new.

 Kojiro wrote:

But seriously, 1200 points for 5 guys, T3 with 1 wound? 240pts a man? You didn't field them against orks for good freaking reason.

Each one was a level 4 psyker. Imagine a Librarius Conclave of Eldrad Ulthrans. Psychic powers, especially the shooty ones, also tended to be more lethal if I remember correctly.

 Ashiraya wrote:
40k is not even close to maxing out its possible power scaling - Gretchin and human civilians may be near the bottom, but things like the Culture are evidence that there is plenty of room for 40k to fit in more powerful things without breaking the story.

But the reason the Culture works in its own setting* is that the story is about the Culture. All those "normal" civilizations used as nothing more than a measuring point to show how awesome the Culture is are just background scenery for the real story. They show up, provide an amusing anecdote about how many lower-level space battleships a Culture toaster can kill every nanosecond, and that's their entire job. You don't have any investment in them once the main characters move on. And that's fine, because the Culture novels are stories. You read what the author presents, from beginning to end, and that's it.

40k, on the other hand, is a setting. You're supposed to write your own stories from your faction's point of view, where they're the awesome heroes. Demoting whole factions to being nothing more than reference points to show off how awesome someone else is goes directly against that idea. Nobody wants to be a background character in someone else's story. And that's where the power creep of 40k is going. Guardsmen are nothing more than cannon fodder to show off how awesome the space marine heroes are when they show up to win the war and steal all the glory. But wait, those space marines are nothing more than cannon fodder to show off how awesome the grey knights are. No, even the normal grey knights are nothing more than cannon fodder to show off how awesome the super elite ultra-purity grey knights are. You end up with a situation where you're simultaneously presenting whole factions as "the elite of the elite, look how awesome they are" and "actually, they suck, buy the new $500 kit now". It reduces the fluff to a giant measuring contest.


*And only in its own setting. Bring the Culture into 40k as a major (and playable) faction and you would absolutely ruin the fluff.

On one hand service in DW can be considered penance (Korvydae after Kastorel-Novem) and on the other, a SM who will get a boot back to his chapter, will bring great shame on it (Deathwatch novels, not by C.S. Goto). I'd say it's somewhere in between. Also DW can be considered elite when combating Xenos and Xeno sympathisers, but immediately loose their street cred, when going up against Daemons or CSM.

 Peregrine wrote:
It reduces the fluff to a giant measuring contest.

I mean, it is not like I disagree that the 40k game does not work well with its own lore.

I think the lore, in a vacuum, works just fine. But once we raise the stakes to asking ourselves how well the lore and game intermingle, we have a lot more issues than merely elite scaling.

And people call this a narrative wargame.

I think a reason why the DW might be treated like a penance service could be because of the high level of risk the Deathwatch are exposed to.

They're going up against massive threats to not just the Imperium, but to the galaxy at large too. They'll all their faith in the God-Emperor and prove that they aren't failures and are worthy of being called a Space Marine. Otherwise, they'll be the first in their team to be killed, and bring shame upon their Chapter.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think a reason why the DW might be treated like a penance service could be because of the high level of risk the Deathwatch are exposed to.

They're going up against massive threats to not just the Imperium, but to the galaxy at large too. They'll all their faith in the God-Emperor and prove that they aren't failures and are worthy of being called a Space Marine. Otherwise, they'll be the first in their team to be killed, and bring shame upon their Chapter.

This is something I total agree with (one of the characters in my new Deathwatch story is exactly like this, fethed up a major battle and was told to go serve in the Deathwatch until he's proved he's not a complete imbecile).

 Deadshot wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think a reason why the DW might be treated like a penance service could be because of the high level of risk the Deathwatch are exposed to.

They're going up against massive threats to not just the Imperium, but to the galaxy at large too. They'll all their faith in the God-Emperor and prove that they aren't failures and are worthy of being called a Space Marine. Otherwise, they'll be the first in their team to be killed, and bring shame upon their Chapter.

This is something I total agree with (one of the characters in my new Deathwatch story is exactly like this, fethed up a major battle and was told to go serve in the Deathwatch until he's proved he's not a complete imbecile).

Now you gotta wonder why Lukas the Jackalwolf has never been sent to the Deathwatch. He's capable, even brilliant but the Wolf Lords hate him because he's an irreverent little cretin.

The Space Wolves have their own exile-but-not-exile in the form of the Wolfblade. Plus, the Deathwatch get a say too - they probably don't want the smug little git.....

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think a reason why the DW might be treated like a penance service could be because of the high level of risk the Deathwatch are exposed to.

They're going up against massive threats to not just the Imperium, but to the galaxy at large too. They'll all their faith in the God-Emperor and prove that they aren't failures and are worthy of being called a Space Marine. Otherwise, they'll be the first in their team to be killed, and bring shame upon their Chapter.

This is something I total agree with (one of the characters in my new Deathwatch story is exactly like this, fethed up a major battle and was told to go serve in the Deathwatch until he's proved he's not a complete imbecile).

Now you gotta wonder why Lukas the Jackalwolf has never been sent to the Deathwatch. He's capable, even brilliant but the Wolf Lords hate him because he's an irreverent little cretin.

They might hate his guts but they respect him too. The Space Wolves are vikings, who were a warrior culture like no other. They respected capable warriors, but want them to be the traditional warriors, and prideful. The Space Wolves are the same. They like Lukas because he's a warrior, but as you say, he doesn't conform to their honourable warrior image, he's a cretin, so their pride in their heritage keeps them from expressing their amnity

 Deadshot wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think a reason why the DW might be treated like a penance service could be because of the high level of risk the Deathwatch are exposed to.

They're going up against massive threats to not just the Imperium, but to the galaxy at large too. They'll all their faith in the God-Emperor and prove that they aren't failures and are worthy of being called a Space Marine. Otherwise, they'll be the first in their team to be killed, and bring shame upon their Chapter.

This is something I total agree with (one of the characters in my new Deathwatch story is exactly like this, fethed up a major battle and was told to go serve in the Deathwatch until he's proved he's not a complete imbecile).

Now you gotta wonder why Lukas the Jackalwolf has never been sent to the Deathwatch. He's capable, even brilliant but the Wolf Lords hate him because he's an irreverent little cretin.

They might hate his guts but they respect him too. The Space Wolves are vikings, who were a warrior culture like no other. They respected capable warriors, but want them to be the traditional warriors, and prideful. The Space Wolves are the same. They like Lukas because he's a warrior, but as you say, he doesn't conform to their honourable warrior image, he's a cretin, so their pride in their heritage keeps them from expressing their amnity

There's also the much more personal issue of his pranks. Like filling Terminator armour with biting bugs. Lukas's skill doesn't make him liked it's probably fairer to say it keeps him alive.

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think a reason why the DW might be treated like a penance service could be because of the high level of risk the Deathwatch are exposed to.

They're going up against massive threats to not just the Imperium, but to the galaxy at large too. They'll all their faith in the God-Emperor and prove that they aren't failures and are worthy of being called a Space Marine. Otherwise, they'll be the first in their team to be killed, and bring shame upon their Chapter.

This is something I total agree with (one of the characters in my new Deathwatch story is exactly like this, fethed up a major battle and was told to go serve in the Deathwatch until he's proved he's not a complete imbecile).

Now you gotta wonder why Lukas the Jackalwolf has never been sent to the Deathwatch. He's capable, even brilliant but the Wolf Lords hate him because he's an irreverent little cretin.

They might hate his guts but they respect him too. The Space Wolves are vikings, who were a warrior culture like no other. They respected capable warriors, but want them to be the traditional warriors, and prideful. The Space Wolves are the same. They like Lukas because he's a warrior, but as you say, he doesn't conform to their honourable warrior image, he's a cretin, so their pride in their heritage keeps them from expressing their amnity

There's also the much more personal issue of his pranks. Like filling Terminator armour with biting bugs. Lukas's skill doesn't make him liked it's probably fairer to say it keeps him alive.

He also has...I don't think grievances is the right word...history maybe? He has a history both good and bad with xenos. I think he'd jump up in the ranks pretty quick in the Deathwatch.

This pretty much sums up my feelings about this whole "mostest elitest" thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_huL5ynaI8Y

some things to keep in mind, the deathwatch is a temporary secondment where your chapter member is interacting on a daily basis with multiple members of other chapters, as part of a kill team he'll be interacting, DAILY, with 9 other marines each from their own chapter. passing on what he knows about fighting aliens, sometimes ones that others may have little pratical experiance with upon arriving (many space marine chapters have likely yet to directly face a Tyranid invasion force, just for example) and representing his chapter. you're not likely to see many complete screw ups. ALSO, space Marines don't have huge screw ups. they're all given hypo indoctrination during training, and that'll smooth out a lot of the... rougher edges of a recruit.

so yeah the sucide squad idea? not a lot of sense.... I suspect the Chapter Master makes secondment placement picks VERY carefully. likely judging the needs of the chapter vs the needs of the Imperium as a whole. A Ultramarine passionate about experimenting with anti-nid tactics in the wake of the Battle of Macragge might be seen as a good canidate for secondment because the nature of the deathwatch would enable them to more effecitvly gather info and give them access to the minds of brothers from a multitude of chapters.