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I'm hoping (and I'm fairly optimistic which could be foolish based on past chaos releases) that this is to tide chaos over rules wise, and then a new codex will be done whenever 8th ed comes out. I'd rather get a new codex in 8th than one now (obviously assuming it's done well in 8th which also is a pretty baseless assumption... But I'm in a weirdly uncharacteristic optimistic mood).

Yea even if this release is mediocre, that will be an improvement to how we've been treated. Improvement in small increments is ok by me. I agree this is just a holdover until 8th. If it is coming out next year, having a codex that will be obsolete in a matter of months is not a good thing IMO.

But if this release isn't absolute garbage, what with the Chaos players post about? Does this mean I'll no longer have a slew of posts in every thread to the point of "yeah but Chaos has it worse"?

Honestly I like the current space marine chapter tactic design and think it will make for a decent chaos version. I hope they incorporate the different demonkin supplements into the chaos dex as well. I like the current deathwatch design that allows unique units to replace generic units in formations. But I feel this supplement is just a way to add more formations and unique units to chaos and I believe the tzetch version in warzone fenris will do the same.
And since supplements don't have point costs minus relics they easily can be used in a new edition. Thus this supplement is just a boost until 8th.
I hope 40k takes from AoS the idea to post unit rules As download online and also include online all legal formation datasheets as well leaving the fluff, Weapon, special rules, relics, warlord traits, unique units and multi formstion detschments to the codex and supplements. Thus having basic rules available to play and know what's still legal and compatible. The main thing I hope from 8th is organized set of rules with some simplification and reduction on redundancy and less randomization with faster games. I don't expect w complete overhaul of rules.

Requizen wrote:
But if this release isn't absolute garbage, what with the Chaos players post about? Does this mean I'll no longer have a slew of posts in every thread to the point of "yeah but Chaos has it worse"?

Good news! There are 4 chaos gods. I can assure you this update won't hit all of them!

But seriously, the army is quite outdated. It will require a full codex overhaul as well as a brand new direction for the way they've taken the army for the past 15 years for them to please me. So you can count on me to still use the 'chaos has it worse' mantra.

pepsuber wrote:Yea even if this release is mediocre, that will be an improvement to how we've been treated. Improvement in small increments is ok by me. I agree this is just a holdover until 8th. If it is coming out next year, having a codex that will be obsolete in a matter of months is not a good thing IMO.

Blood Angels players refer to that as the Black rage. On the bright side there are no band wagoners to deal with.

Requizen wrote:But if this release isn't absolute garbage, what with the Chaos players post about? Does this mean I'll no longer have a slew of posts in every thread to the point of "yeah but Chaos has it worse"?

The Sisters of Battle players are ready and able to fill that void.

Requizen wrote:
But if this release isn't absolute garbage, what with the Chaos players post about? Does this mean I'll no longer have a slew of posts in every thread to the point of "yeah but Chaos has it worse"?

I see more people whine about Chaos players complaining than I do actual complaints about Chaos Space Marines.

Which is to say, it occurs, but is usually drowned out by people with (loyalist) Space Marine avatars going "OMG DO U EVER STOP WHINING CHAOS PLAYERS SUCH BABIES OMG DEY R THE WORST AMIRITE?"

 Arbitrator wrote:

Requizen wrote:
But if this release isn't absolute garbage, what with the Chaos players post about? Does this mean I'll no longer have a slew of posts in every thread to the point of "yeah but Chaos has it worse"?

I see more people whine about Chaos players complaining than I do actual complaints about Chaos Space Marines.

Which is to say, it occurs, but is usually drowned out by people with (loyalist) Space Marine avatars going "OMG DO U EVER STOP WHINING CHAOS PLAYERS SUCH BABIES OMG DEY R THE WORST AMIRITE?"

You don't hang out in the Sororitas or Ork related threads. If you ever try to assert that Orks or Sororitas need a new codex more than any one else, you will be drowned in CSM player responses.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

Requizen wrote:
But if this release isn't absolute garbage, what with the Chaos players post about? Does this mean I'll no longer have a slew of posts in every thread to the point of "yeah but Chaos has it worse"?

I see more people whine about Chaos players complaining than I do actual complaints about Chaos Space Marines.

Which is to say, it occurs, but is usually drowned out by people with (loyalist) Space Marine avatars going "OMG DO U EVER STOP WHINING CHAOS PLAYERS SUCH BABIES OMG DEY R THE WORST AMIRITE?"

You don't hang out in the Sororitas or Ork related threads. If you ever try to assert that Orks or Sororitas need a new codex more than any one else, you will be drowned in CSM player responses.

This isn't an Ork or Sororitas thread though. It's a thread about a Chaos release. If you click on a thread about Chaos, what do you expect to see?

 ImAGeek wrote:
That aimed at me..?

If you're asking me about the above then absolutely not. I agree with you, actually.

So what is going on presale this week? Just Kharn and the book and the few other things?

The HH Thousand Sons stuff still doesn't have a date?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
This isn't an Ork or Sororitas thread though. It's a thread about a Chaos release. If you click on a thread about Chaos, what do you expect to see?

I clearly expect to see CSM players complaining about the state of their codex.

Personally, I was just hoping we could keep it reasonably in check until we actually see what the new rules in Traitors Hate are.

I do disagree with Arbitrator's statement that there is more complaining about CSM player complaining, than actual CSM players complaining.

So in effect, I was complaining about Abritrators complaining, about non CSM people complaining, about CSM people complaining.

 adamsouza wrote:

So in effect, I was complaining about Abritrators complaining, about non CSM people complaining, about CSM people complaining.

[suddenly remembers all the things he could be doing instead of reading this thread]

Did anyone pick up on the "End Times reference in the Deathwatch codex? I think it is in the timeline labeled "The Time of Ending". 40K is about to get Sigmared!! How does this fit on this thread? Well, right before Fantasy got Sigmared they gave us our wish lists. Now I see Genestealer Cult armies, Mechanicus armies, Deathwatch, and possibly CSM rules. Sucks that chaos only gets a year before Sigmaration resets everything.

Smellingsalts wrote:
Did anyone pick up on the "End Times reference in the Deathwatch codex? I think it is in the timeline labeled "The Time of Ending". 40K is about to get Sigmared!! How does this fit on this thread? Well, right before Fantasy got Sigmared they gave us our wish lists. Now I see Genestealer Cult armies, Mechanicus armies, Deathwatch, and possibly CSM rules. Sucks that chaos only gets a year before Sigmaration resets everything.

Stop. 40k is not getting Sigmared. Every reliable source says it's not happening. Starting things like this only causes fighting.

Or getting picked up by the more idiotic rumour sites and passed off as actual facts..

Shame if its not. 7th ed needs to die and 40K is desperate for a new direction. What better than a complete redo. Hell game needs it

 Motograter wrote:
Shame if its not. 7th ed needs to die and 40K is desperate for a new direction. What better than a complete redo. Hell game needs it

Sad Panda/Atia have both stated that there is a new edition in the works.

Sad Panda has also been fairly adamant that it is not a "Sigmaring" of the setting however.

What I read in the same posts is that elements of Sigmar are going to be incorporated into the new 40k. I actually like AOS so I see it as a good thing.

Smellingsalts wrote:
What I read in the same posts is that elements of Sigmar are going to be incorporated into the new 40k. I actually like AOS so I see it as a good thing.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what you posted about in this thread, and were subsequently jumped on for.

Game mechanics from AoS making their way into 40k? I don't think many people have issues with that.
"Sigmaring" the setting and completely starting over? Every reliable rumormonger points towards this not happening. "The Time of Ending"/"End Times"/"Whatever You Want to Call the End of the 40k Universe" is something that has been there for a loooooooooooooong time. It really is not even worth mentioning when you see something like that in a book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
Honestly I like the current space marine chapter tactic design and think it will make for a decent chaos version. I hope they incorporate the different demonkin supplements into the chaos dex as well. I like the current deathwatch design that allows unique units to replace generic units in formations. But I feel this supplement is just a way to add more formations and unique units to chaos and I believe the tzeentch version in warzone fenris will do the same.

Chapter Tactics are okay, but putting it bluntly? The "Combat Doctrines" bit is less than ideal.

Oh, yeah I just meant the rules, they won't wipe the setting, thanks for clarification!

 adamsouza wrote:
I clearly expect to see CSM players complaining about the state of their codex.

Personally, I was just hoping we could keep it reasonably in check until we actually see what the new rules in Traitors Hate are.

Realistically I'm not anticipating much in the way of new rules. I expect a rehash of the formations from the BL & CS supplements, a renaming (and possible nerfing) of the SM psychic powers, a compilation of existing dataslates from recent box sets (i.e., the now discontinued IK: Renegade) and a superformation that grants some kind of Hatred. Like a worse version of AoD.

Oh, and if Kharn gets new rules I expect him to no longer hit Invisible units on a 2+.

It would be nice to see the CSM marine units without plastic kits get produced, but if they are smart they will do a starter set that is Eldar vs. CSM when the new rules come out and release plastics for both armies and make a ton of cash all summer long!

The CSM codex is problematic... CSM pay more points for less effective versions of special rules. SM in a number of instances get for free what CSM must pay a steep price to recieve. It will take pretty significant additions to the rules to negate this without rewriting it.

Even before taking chapter tactics into account, ATSKNF by virtue of improving Marine unit longevity means a CSM squad needs between 13-14 CSM to equal them. When you add chapter tactics it becomes an even steeper disparity. GW would have to give us marks and icons for free just to equal what SM get for free.

This new book doesn't necessarily have to do that specifically but that's the mountain it has to climb to "fix" CSM without rewriting the codex.

I actually like the current layout of the CSM codex. We don't need Legion Tactics or anything. What we need are more rules and price adjustments. If we just made the basic CSM 12 a model and made the CCW upgrade 1 point, they'd be much more attractive for instance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Cult Terminators. We need those added.

My hope for Chaos is that GW have planned the Black crusade and other releases to lead up to a new CSM codex. Chaos has a lot of finecast models, several plastic kits that are in dire need of updating and some that are combos of both. The rumoured new Rubric kit will replace the finecast and plastic combo/upgrade set GW produce at the moment and I wouldn't be shocked to see at least one new Sorcerer model as well. If GW use other campaign books to release new versions of other cult or specialist troops that would free up resources to update core kits such as the basic CSM and Havoc kits when the codex is released.

The Chaos Space Marines need a complete reboot. I think it is fair to say the fluff writers, rules designers, and fan base are all on separate pages as to what CSM are. This new campaign book won't/can't fix that.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
I clearly expect to see CSM players complaining about the state of their codex.

Personally, I was just hoping we could keep it reasonably in check until we actually see what the new rules in Traitors Hate are.

Realistically I'm not anticipating much in the way of new rules. I expect a rehash of the formations from the BL & CS supplements, a renaming (and possible nerfing) of the SM psychic powers, a compilation of existing dataslates from recent box sets (i.e., the now discontinued IK: Renegade) and a superformation that grants some kind of Hatred. Like a worse version of AoD.

Oh, and if Kharn gets new rules I expect him to no longer hit Invisible units on a 2+.

We already know you failed already at predictions hopefully your not a follower of Tzetch.

here is some Information about the Preorders on Saturday:

Traitors Hate:
-Contains New Rules to Play alongside Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-New Tactical Objectives
- 4 new psychic trees
-11 new Formations, a new "decurion style" detachment (This is on top of the Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter 14 formations)
-Lord of Skulls Datasheet
- with new rules to add Renegade Knights to csm

Traitors Hate Limited Edition:
-6 Metal Tactical Objective Markers
-Exclusively Designed Heretic Psychic Astartes Psychic Powers Psychic cards
-36 Tactical Objective Cards
-136 Pages of Rules and Narrative
-Double sided Campaign map ( which means a new complete campaign centered on csm)

We already heard Kharn the Betrayer has a new rule (eternal warrior?) and rumoured rules to add him to demonkin.

So odds are something in that list is decent and odds are all these formstions will still be useful in any 8th edition reboot.

And the original post on faeit based on the product info and known white dwarf leaks. http://natfka.blogspot.com/2016/08/details-about-traitors-hate-and-this.html?m=1

So a spiky Angels of Death supplement?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
So a spiky Angels of Death supplement?

Sounds like it except with a full campaign as well.