Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Dropping in a hope rear lol

I think you're forgetting (or unaware) that Knights get to choose the facing of their Ion Shield during your shooting phase. To guarantee the lack of a shield, you must attack simultaneously from two angles.

IKs are outright jokes compared to GMCs.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Drop pod in with multi melta, Melta gun, combie melta, Your gonna have a bad time.

Really? Three shots?

So you hit with two. Let's say they both pen. One gets blocked by the shield. The best result you can hope for is 4 HP (not enough to kill) and that will only happen 1/9 of the time. Most likely (2/3) you're getting a single HP.

Even if all three hit, pen, no save - the average result is 5 HPs. Not enough.

Well you dont drop infront of the shield you silly bean!

Even if you dont blow it up, lets say we only hit with 2 and they are both pens. I only need to roll 3+ and i cripple the thing permanently 2 weapon destroyed? Ok, cool he just lost one of his main weapons. better yet, i only need to roll 4+ and boom!

Alternatively i could drop in with all grav weapons, and immobilize it.

I dont need to kill it, i just need to cripple the thing

It's already been pointed out that Super Heavies ignore everything but Explodes.

Further, you might not know how the shield works. It doesn't matter what side you put your meltas on. At the beginning of the opponent's shooting phase, the Knight player chooses the side that the shield is on. If you pod in your MM, M, and CM, you're snap-shotting with the MM (so missing 5/6) and get 2 shots at a 3, so you're getting 1 or 2 hits on an average day.

The Knight gets his 4++.

So only 1 hit is getting through, doing 3 HP at most, if you roll a 5+ on the Vehicle Damage chart.

The knight then turns to that unit and it goes away either to the AP3 shots or in close combat.

Now, I'm not scared of Knights. I think, as has been pointed out, that GMCs are generally better (Tau and Eldar, especially). But they will take more than a Drop Podding tactical squad.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Unless you have a GMC or tons of anti tank, they're pretty tough. Also, the main OP point, which GMC have, is the Stomp! Just lost about 750 points in a game to a 1 HP left Knight who got 3 Stomps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:


Well even still, only need to rull a 5+ to get explode, which with melta, its not that bad. The even nastyer combo is grav cannon, grav gun, and multi grav and just unleash hell on it.

Super Heavies ignore explode, it only does D3+3 Hull Points instead. He will also most likely get his 4+ invuln against it (depending on which arc you shoot him from)

Explodes results against Knights are D3+1

You can't count on even BA triple melta to get an explodes. That's why drop triple melta doesn't reliably pop a Rhino, much less down a Knight.

Mechanically, I think IK are fine as is. An all IK force can't effectively control objectives, and doens't have the same firepower as a competitive force of the same point value.

If they were broken, then they would be considered a top tier codex, and I've never heard anyone accuse them of that.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:


That being said, I think you are underestimating knights by quite a bit. Killing knights with scatter lasers or assault cannons is going to be well-nigh impossible - SLs, for example, can't even hurt them from the front,

Anecdotally, SLs do very well for me vs IK. 3 feet of range and their high mobility means I'm almost always able to fire at the sides/rear with Scatbikes.

I find most Knights get neutered by units being in cover - their shooting is drastically worsened by a +4 save. I regularly play against an opponent with a Gatling Avenger/Battle Cannon IK and it rarely kills more than three or four models lurking in ruins per turn.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Unless you have a GMC or tons of anti tank, they're pretty tough. Also, the main OP point, which GMC have, is the Stomp! Just lost about 750 points in a game to a 1 HP left Knight who got 3 Stomps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:


Well even still, only need to rull a 5+ to get explode, which with melta, its not that bad. The even nastyer combo is grav cannon, grav gun, and multi grav and just unleash hell on it.

Super Heavies ignore explode, it only does D3+3 Hull Points instead. He will also most likely get his 4+ invuln against it (depending on which arc you shoot him from)

Just thought I'd point out, it's only D3+1 for Explodes results.

 adamsouza wrote:
Mechanically, I think IK are fine as is. An all IK force can't effectively control objectives, and doens't have the same firepower as a competitive force of the same point value.

If they were broken, then they would be considered a top tier codex, and I've never heard anyone accuse them of that.

I've always maintained the key issue with IK is that if you turn up to a friendly game with a pure IK army unannounced, that's a pretty douchey move.

If you inform your opponent ahead of time, it is asking a lot of even the most fair minded player to not pass over anti infantry options in favour of anti armour ones when they know in advance that most anti infantry weapons will be a waste.

Therefore it's not possible to have a "fair" game with a pure IK list.

IKs die miserably to scatbikes and WKs. That fact alone keeps them out of top tier.

When they were released the meta was much different but as power creep moved on and the meta adapted they aren't so scary anymore. Like anything after its glory.

 adamsouza wrote:
Mechanically, I think IK are fine as is. An all IK force can't effectively control objectives, and doens't have the same firepower as a competitive force of the same point value.

If they were broken, then they would be considered a top tier codex, and I've never heard anyone accuse them of that.

In relation to top tier Eldar builds they may not be broken, but for the mid and lower tier armies an all IK force is unreasonably difficult to deal with. Many if not most events put restrictions on all Knight armies and/or Knight types as well as running custom missions that Knights have hard times with, but if running straight rulebook missions with an all IK force against something like IG, Dark Eldar, GK's, CSM's, Orks, Sisters, BA's, non-TWC Deathstar SW's, Tyranids, etc then they quickly become a major issue. It's like dealing with a Russ tank company, but with stellar mobility and real CC teeth on top of lots of big guns and armor.

There are certain hardcounter matchups that generally knock IK armies out of contention for top spots at big events that do allow full IK armies in addition to the restriction issues above, but outside those hardcounters they tend to hardcounter most everything else when theres 5 of them in the field. Their balance as an army really is very poor.

Knights are fine. They're not even close to being broken. Certainly not in a "competitive" context where people are bringing Decurion or Gladius. In competition, they can be spammed and still be very fair.

And in a casual game, if you want to bring one, no problem, just tell me in advance, so I can be sure to break out my Wraithknight.

BossJakadakk wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:


That being said, I think you are underestimating knights by quite a bit. Killing knights with scatter lasers or assault cannons is going to be well-nigh impossible - SLs, for example, can't even hurt them from the front,

Anecdotally, SLs do very well for me vs IK. 3 feet of range and their high mobility means I'm almost always able to fire at the sides/rear with Scatbikes.

Eh, that's fair enough, I suppose if you have enough of them. Honestly, I'm amazed they don't have the same front and side AV value, I think that would help quite a bit. There aren't a lot of walkers I know of that have different side and front AVs. Them and sentinels are all I can think of.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Mechanically, I think IK are fine as is. An all IK force can't effectively control objectives, and doens't have the same firepower as a competitive force of the same point value.

If they were broken, then they would be considered a top tier codex, and I've never heard anyone accuse them of that.

I've always maintained the key issue with IK is that if you turn up to a friendly game with a pure IK army unannounced, that's a pretty douchey move.

If you inform your opponent ahead of time, it is asking a lot of even the most fair minded player to not pass over anti infantry options in favour of anti armour ones when they know in advance that most anti infantry weapons will be a waste.

Therefore it's not possible to have a "fair" game with a pure IK list.

We are going to have to agree to disagree.

When Knights, or flyers, or new Psychic powers, were first introduced, it was understandable that people were caught off guard and unprepared.

After a certain point, it becomes your fault if your force doesn't have the right tools.

Knights, Flyers, and 7E's Psychic powers are not new anymore.

Knights are defeated by the same tools one would use to deal with any other heavily armored vehicles. If one lacks those tools because "vehicles are crap in 7E and no one takes them" then one gambled, and lost, at the army building stage.

"Everyone" totally brings Scissors, so you bring Rock, and got suprised by Paper.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Well you dont drop infront of the shield you silly bean!

He positions the shield at the start of your shooting phase so how exactly do you position your pod to avoid the shield when he gets to angle the shield after you place your pod?

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Well even still, only need to rull a 5+ to get explode, which with melta, its not that bad.

You need to get multiple explodes results to kill it which isn't at all reliable with three shots, even more so when most of the time only one of those shots is going to do anything.

If all three hit, pen, failed save then you're still only averaging 5 HPs.

Have you even tried this?

 adamsouza wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Mechanically, I think IK are fine as is. An all IK force can't effectively control objectives, and doens't have the same firepower as a competitive force of the same point value.

If they were broken, then they would be considered a top tier codex, and I've never heard anyone accuse them of that.

I've always maintained the key issue with IK is that if you turn up to a friendly game with a pure IK army unannounced, that's a pretty douchey move.

If you inform your opponent ahead of time, it is asking a lot of even the most fair minded player to not pass over anti infantry options in favour of anti armour ones when they know in advance that most anti infantry weapons will be a waste.

Therefore it's not possible to have a "fair" game with a pure IK list.

We are going to have to agree to disagree.

When Knights, or flyers, or new Psychic powers, were first introduced, it was understandable that people were caught off guard and unprepared.

After a certain point, it becomes your fault if your force doesn't have the right tools.

Knights, Flyers, and 7E's Psychic powers are not new anymore.

Knights are defeated by the same tools one would use to deal with any other heavily armored vehicles. If one lacks those tools because "vehicles are crap in 7E and no one takes them" then one gambled, and lost, at the army building stage.

Not all armies are capable of covering the extremes of all possible threats, and IK's are very definitely an extreme. Defeating a single Knight is one thing, defeating an army of them often requires tailoring. Yes, vehicles have problems in 7E. Knights however have a great deal of mitigation of those issues as they can move and fire at full effectiveness, ignore damage table results, and have a a decent invul save to mitigate HP stripping. Defeating 30 HP worth of AV13 4++ Superheavy is not something just any TAC build can do.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Mechanically, I think IK are fine as is. An all IK force can't effectively control objectives, and doens't have the same firepower as a competitive force of the same point value.

If they were broken, then they would be considered a top tier codex, and I've never heard anyone accuse them of that.

I've always maintained the key issue with IK is that if you turn up to a friendly game with a pure IK army unannounced, that's a pretty douchey move.

If you inform your opponent ahead of time, it is asking a lot of even the most fair minded player to not pass over anti infantry options in favour of anti armour ones when they know in advance that most anti infantry weapons will be a waste.

Therefore it's not possible to have a "fair" game with a pure IK list.

We are going to have to agree to disagree.

When Knights, or flyers, or new Psychic powers, were first introduced, it was understandable that people were caught off guard and unprepared.

After a certain point, it becomes your fault if your force doesn't have the right tools.

Knights, Flyers, and 7E's Psychic powers are not new anymore.

Knights are defeated by the same tools one would use to deal with any other heavily armored vehicles. If one lacks those tools because "vehicles are crap in 7E and no one takes them" then one gambled, and lost, at the army building stage.

"Everyone" totally brings Scissors, so you bring Rock, and got suprised by Paper.

Problem is an entire army of AV13/12 super heavy walkers makes every S6>, poison, sniper, fleshbane, etc weapon useless. An entire army of rock makes every scissors useless. A balanced army list (a TAC if you will) has some of everything. A good majority of armies lack the tools to deal with ALL of one thing that is immune to so much. In a pick up/casual game that isn't list tailored the person who didn't bring the IK army is most likely going to have a good chunk of their army that will basically stand around twiddling their thumbs or standing in the way acting as speed bumps so the IK have to waste time mowing them down which is honestly not all that fun to do when that's their only use and aren't intentionally taken as throw away units. The issue isn't about competitive balance but the fun of friendly casual play where two people (probably random players) sit down to play a game of 40k.

All of those things you listed are also functionally worthless vs gmcs as well. So stop using them.

Martel732 wrote:
All of those things you listed are also functionally worthless vs gmcs as well. So stop using them.

You cant run an entire army if GMC's the way you can run an entire army if Knights. GMC's have issues, very real and very powerful issues, but nobody is showing up to an 1850pt games with 5 Wraithknights, though in instances that are close (e.g. Eldar running 3 WK's) you get similar issues.

Yeah, very nice, eldar can blow them easy. But there are a world beside eldars!

For exmple, chaos and orks arevery bad vs them. In particular orks only can blow them at melee.... but the IK will blow the ork unit at melee faster jajaja. no mention that when the IK blow....surely will blow also your units close to him

For ork only one IK is close to autolose the game. 3 means give the hand to your rival and go home with no need of deploy xD

One turn wrecked knight combo. Sorta iffy (I think the odds come out to just over 50% success, but take two of these!)

Dark eldar archon with a webway portal and blaster
5+ wraithguard with wraith cannons

No scatter so you're guranteed to hit a side that doesn't have the shield, and you have 5 str D shots hitting him. 3 hits if we round down, which is a 50% chance of getting a 6 and insta gimping him, or you could kill with with the mass hull points that'll deal out from the 2-5 results on the table

And this tactic is borderline viable against other armies as well, I.E. wraithknights, riptides, ect.

 Vankraken wrote:
Problem is an entire army of AV13/12 super heavy walkers makes every S6>, poison, sniper, fleshbane, etc weapon useless.

That stuff was made useless by cover and Sv3+ and AV9+, not IKs. If you are taking them for anything but fluffy comp points, you are a bad player and should feel bad.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Problem is an entire army of AV13/12 super heavy walkers makes every S6>, poison, sniper, fleshbane, etc weapon useless.

That stuff was made useless by cover and Sv3+ and AV9+, not IKs. If you are taking them for anything but fluffy comp points, you are a bad player and should feel bad.

What a horrible mindset that is.

pm713 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Problem is an entire army of AV13/12 super heavy walkers makes every S6>, poison, sniper, fleshbane, etc weapon useless.

That stuff was made useless by cover and Sv3+ and AV9+, not IKs. If you are taking them for anything but fluffy comp points, you are a bad player and should feel bad.

What a horrible mindset that is.

Found the Fluff bunny!

BTW, if you have a problem with GW's reality, don't play their game.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Problem is an entire army of AV13/12 super heavy walkers makes every S6>, poison, sniper, fleshbane, etc weapon useless.

That stuff was made useless by cover and Sv3+ and AV9+, not IKs. If you are taking them for anything but fluffy comp points, you are a bad player and should feel bad.

What a horrible mindset that is.

Found the Fluff bunny!

BTW, if you have a problem with GW's reality, don't play their game.

There's nothing wrong with GW in that regard. There's a lot wrong with you.

Apparently taking any sort of specialist weaponry thats not effective against every unit in the game is bad and makes one a bad person now...

BA players are automatically bad people!

Martel732 wrote:
BA players are automatically bad people!

I've thought that since 3rd.! Nyuk nyuk. . .

No, Knights aren't bad unless they start taking up the bulk of points in an army. Then they can get annoying.