Are Imperial Knights really that powerful?

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**Polonius**

babelfish wrote:
I think that there are some important points getting lost in the argument over if mass tanks are better than mass Knights and the L2P noobness.

The central are Knights that powerful question really boils down to how casual/competitive of a game is being played.

In a casual pick up game, one Imperial Knight is reasonable. All factions have enough anti-tank to deal with a single Knight without tailoring for it. 2-3 Knights gets more iffy, and will depend mostly on your gaming group. In my club, showing up with 3 Knights means you want a casual game. At the new players night, it's a d**k move. More than 3 Knights and you've moved into competitive play, meaning you shouldn't be playing against opponents who don't want a tournament style game.

In competitive play, Knights (that is, 4-5 of them) are mid tier and tend to be very rock paper scissors. Some armies can't handle them and mostly just hope to not play against them, other armies have easy solutions and look at the Knights as a free win. In small events the Knight player can hope that nobody brought the tools to kill him/dodge the bad match up. In major events, that's much less likely, particularly as the current dominant armies all have the tools to deal with them. Evidence for this is the thing were Imperial Knight builds rarely win GT's.

Compared to mass Leman Russes/Armored Company builds, Knights are better, because those armies are outdated and have major flaws. Compared to GMC, Knights are worse, because the only two GMC anyone cares about (Stormsurge and Wraithknight) are really really good. If you are at a tournament and you don't have the tools to deal with several Knights, your likely going to loose to Knights and to the neckbeard who brought all of the Leman Russes he painted up in 1998. If you are having a casual game, you can always ask the other player to take out some Knights, or play fewer points, or simply decline the game.

I think this is the best look at the issue.

IK are a pro-am army, in that they're not quite good enough for the highest levels of competitive play, but they'll wipe the tables with most casual to semi-competitive builds. Virtually every example of how easy it is to deal with IKs presupposes that the player is using a high level codex: Eldar, Space Marines, or Tau. And, to those armies, there are pretty straight forward answers.

For a lot of armies, not only is the game not competitive, it's incredibly frustrating. And that's what people remember.

**Martel732**

Orks in particular don't find Knights super fun I know. Lootas are very sketchy vs the front AV 13 4++, and the lootas will likely be targeted for elimination quickly.

**War Kitten**

Imperial Knights are strong, but they only get "too powerful" when you start taking more than one of them. One is manageable, more than one turns the game into a larger scale version of Rock, Paper, Scissors

**JohnHwangDD**

Martel732 wrote:
I think for people planning to shoot them to death, it's a lot more like fighting a tank than for people who plan on assaulting them. Knights neither strike back, nor stomp when you are scrubbing them to death on their AV 12 sides with no ion shield.

Not exactly, because the difference being that a Knight can crush a lot of things within 20" simply by assaulting it - a Russ cannot ever do that. The Russ can only ever shoot back. Same with the big movement advantage - the Russ is simply a lot slower to get out of a fire lane or kill box. That is a huge difference in the combat calculus.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The thing about the side AV 12 is that the Eldar can get absurd amounts of S6 anywhere they want easily. While shooting through the front with D weapons. Although the ion shield functions against 66% of D weapon shots.

And if you didn't happen to bring a mass-S6 / multi-D Eldar army, what then?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Orks in particular don't find Knights super fun I know. Lootas are very sketchy vs the front AV 13 4++, and the lootas will likely be targeted for elimination quickly.

Along with Tankbustas and Meganobz. Otherwise, not a big deal.

**Martel732**

"And if you didn't happen to bring a mass-S6 / multi-D Eldar army, what then?"

Is there another kind?

**JohnHwangDD**

The Eldar book has lots of choices, and there are non-Eldar books. Showing that there is one Rock to this Scissors army in a sea of Paper doesn't help you. If anything, that particular Eldar build is the exception that proves the rule, as Polonius noted.

If you are saying people need a top-tier competitive army to beat Knights, maximizing the best units from what is considered a top-tier Codex, then that pretty much shows that Knights are obviously a superior choice.

BTW, at this point, I think it's obvious that you're trolling.

**Martel732**

Superior to what? Russes? Pretty damn low bar.

**greyknight12**

Martel732 wrote:
Orks in particular don't find Knights super fun I know. Lootas are very sketchy vs the front AV 13 4++, and the lootas will likely be targeted for elimination quickly.

Assault them with Nobz/bullyboyz. AV13 with no save is a wet paper bag against S10, with or without armorbane. Knights can only kill 3 (4 for the forgeworld ones) before you get to strike back. Even if the stomps kill you, it's a good trade.
For math reference: 5 attacks WS5 s10 vs AV13 (aka1 nobz charging) gives 3.33 hits, 1.67 pens and 0.55 glances. That doesn't factor in additional hullpoints for Explodes results, or the effects of killsaws. If you charge a knight with 5 Nobz, he will kill 1.5 of them at I4 (round up for 2) before you hit back with enough hullpoints to kill it outright. When I play my Grey Knights against them, I just hit them with hammers and dreadknights for a similar effect.

The best way to kill a knight is CC if you have high strength weapons; they simply don't have enough attacks to kill you before I1. However, in this edition many armies also have enough shooting to flank it and wittle it down, shield or not. And remember, you don't have to kill all 5...just 2-3 and then you can control the board and win on objectives.

**JohnHwangDD**

Yeah, Killsaw Nobz were what our group came up with as well.

**jeffersonian000**

Orks can lock a Knight down with a squad of Snotlings, and keep it locked down all game by simply feeding it a cheap squad every turn. Nids can do the same with Gaunts. In point of fact, plentiful cheap infantry are the bane of Knights. They can't kill 20+ cheap infantry fast enough to stop 10 more from showing up. And while that Knight is stuck in a tarpit, the Knight next to it is getting it's hull points stripped. And the three others? They are stuck trying to get around terrain because you were smart enough to use wall, and tall line of sight blocking ruins.

Did you take flyers? You know, those units most Knights can't deal with?

SJ

**BrianDavion**

jeffersonian000 wrote:

Did you take flyers? You know, those units most Knights can't deal with?

SJ

but but fliers are ALSO an evil of 6th/7th edition! How dare you suggest I take them!

**Capamaru**

When playing Eldar one or multiple knights don't make a lot of difference to me. Usually two Hemlocks, two D-cannon batteries and one WK with wraithcannons can do the job. If not a Sh.Spear charge will finish the job.
Imperial Knights are a nice model which seems appropriately costed (not like the WK). I greatly consider including one in my GK list as fire support for them. (and I really like the model).

**Xathrodox86**

I find Knights completely terryfining and bought one, solely to counter my opponent's IK. Theire firepower is immense, they have split fire, a two shot Melta cannon with huge range and a tasty rocket launcher to boot. A lot of HP's and AV 13/12 is a lot in my books, not to mention the shield. Knights are scary man.

**xlDuke**

greyknight12 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Orks in particular don't find Knights super fun I know. Lootas are very sketchy vs the front AV 13 4++, and the lootas will likely be targeted for elimination quickly.

Assault them with Nobz/bullyboyz. AV13 with no save is a wet paper bag against S10, with or without armorbane. Knights can only kill 3 (4 for the forgeworld ones) before you get to strike back. Even if the stomps kill you, it's a good trade.
For math reference: 5 attacks WS5 s10 vs AV13 (aka1 nobz charging) gives 3.33 hits, 1.67 pens and 0.55 glances. That doesn't factor in additional hullpoints for Explodes results, or the effects of killsaws. If you charge a knight with 5 Nobz, he will kill 1.5 of them at I4 (round up for 2) before you hit back with enough hullpoints to kill it outright. When I play my Grey Knights against them, I just hit them with hammers and dreadknights for a similar effect.

The best way to kill a knight is CC if you have high strength weapons; they simply don't have enough attacks to kill you before I1. However, in this edition many armies also have enough shooting to flank it and wittle it down, shield or not. And remember, you don't have to kill all 5...just 2-3 and then you can control the board and win on objectives.

Nobz are never Strength 10 (they are strength 8/9 with PK) and only have 5 attacks at high strength if they're charging with two killsaws. S10 is a lot better than S8/9 but you're right, Bullyboz with killsaws are a decent counter to Knights.

**Tycho**

The weapons and tactics it takes to kill a tank in 40k are the exact same weapons and tactics it takes to kill a Knight. The only different is that you are dealing with 1/3 the number in Knights versus tanks, and need to dedicate 3x the effort per Knight. You aren't killing all 5 on turn 1, you are killing or mitigating 1 per turn.

And yes, I have read the thread. And posted several times. Asking the question implies you haven't read the thread.

A single post on the first page and then nothing until you make a statement that has been demonstrated in the previous 3 pages worth of posts to be inaccurate ... Most would forgive me for assuming you missed the relevant section I think ...

Orks can lock a Knight down with a squad of Snotlings, and keep it locked down all game by simply feeding it a cheap squad every turn. Nids can do the same with Gaunts. In point of fact, plentiful cheap infantry are the bane of Knights. They can't kill 20+ cheap infantry fast enough to stop 10 more from showing up. And while that Knight is stuck in a tarpit, the Knight next to it is getting it's hull points stripped. And the three others? They are stuck trying to get around terrain because you were smart enough to use wall, and tall line of sight blocking ruins.

The only time I run a Knight is as a lone ally to my Skitarii. Even with just one Knight (which I think we can all agree is NOT a OP unit)I've never had trouble with cheap massed infantry. I can only imagine how much easier that becomes with 5 Knights. How do you even get a squad of snotlings across the board to catch something that can clear 24" of table in a turn while also dropping large template blasts?

Bullyboz with killsaws are a decent counter to Knights.

We don't have too many Bullyboys players in my area, but this I could see working with some careful orchestration.

**carldooley**

Xathrodox86 wrote:
I find Knights completely terryfining and bought one, solely to counter my opponent's IK. Theire firepower is immense, they have split fire, a two shot Melta cannon with huge range and a tasty rocket launcher to boot. A lot of HP's and AV 13/12 is a lot in my books, not to mention the shield. Knights are scary man.

huh? they do NOT have split fire - but each weapon can target a different unit. Just remember that one of the weapons has to shoot what you are going to charge. The Melta Cannon has one shot, while the Rapid Fire Battle Cannon has 2 shots.

**AnomanderRake**

Martel732 wrote:
"And if you didn't happen to bring a mass-S6 / multi-D Eldar army, what then?"

Is there another kind?

The kind you play if you want to play a second game. Last I checked.

**the_scotsman**

Xathrodox86 wrote:
I find Knights completely terryfining and bought one, solely to counter my opponent's IK. Theire firepower is immense, they have split fire, a two shot Melta cannon with huge range and a tasty rocket launcher to boot. A lot of HP's and AV 13/12 is a lot in my books, not to mention the shield. Knights are scary man.

The melta cannon has only one shot. That might contribute to your perception of the knight as terrifying.

**agnosto**

When I run an all-Knight army, I run a baronial court with my Lancer as the baron/warlord. I typically include the lancer, an acheron, and a castigator plus an errant or paladin with anti-air cannon or if I want to just laugh at how useless it is, I'll include my magera. In bigger games, I'll also run an adamantine lance with two errants and a paladin with the paladin as warlord; the lancer will still be the baron. Whole thing, 7 knights, winds up being just under 3000 pts.

I've lost games, I've won games but I always pre-warn my opponent and don't mind list-tailoring in the least. I like big, stompy robots.

**master of ordinance**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
The weapons and tactics it takes to kill a tank in 40k are the exact same weapons and tactics it takes to kill a Knight. The only different is that you are dealing with 1/3 the number in Knights versus tanks, and need to dedicate 3x the effort per Knight. You aren't killing all 5 on turn 1, you are killing or mitigating 1 per turn.

And yes, I have read the thread. And posted several times. Asking the question implies you haven't read the thread.

SJ

Not really, Russes can be stunned, immobilised, lose weapons, etc. They can only move 6" as opposed to a Knights up to 24" and rely on cover to survive.
Your Knight can run, shoot, charge and murder just about anything. And it also takes nearly twice as many shots to kill a knight as it does a Russ as the Knight pretty much ignores 50% of damaging hits owing to its Ion shield. I f you want to kill a Russ you either Lascannon/Melta it or you just assault it and laugh. With a Knight you first have to get within Melta range without being charged or stomped (seriously, who gave a Stomp attack that long a range?) and even they your Lascannon or Melta has a 50% chance of doing nothing thanks to the Ion Shield, so you have to dedicate about twice the firepower needed to kill a Russ squadron just to bring down a single Knight.

**Martel732**

If you are getting to melta range on the Knight, you are going to hit the side with no ion shield.

**Tycho**

If you are getting to melta range on the Knight, you are going to hit the side with no ion shield.

Only if there's an even greater threat on a different side that cause the Knight player to have to decide which weapon hits him. This also assumes the timing worked out so that he doesn't just mulch the greater threat (or possibly BOTH threats) and then put the shield on the melta side.

**Martel732**

Tycho wrote:
If you are getting to melta range on the Knight, you are going to hit the side with no ion shield.

Only if there's an even greater threat on a different side that cause the Knight player to have to decide which weapon hits him. This also assumes the timing worked out so that he doesn't just mulch the greater threat (or possibly BOTH threats) and then put the shield on the melta side.

While that's true, I just think people are spoiled by vehicles not having saves typically. The average GMC takes 2-3 times more firepower to bring down than a Knight, and costs the same or less. All GMCs have a stacking 5+++ save on top of everything else for starters. If you force to IK to put the shield on a side, you should be able to HP it out through the front then. Compare to Stormsurge that gets 4++/5+++ from all directions.

**Talys**

As has been mentioned, the real strength of IK is not in the unit's points/model efficiency, it's in the ability to easily take as many of them as you want in almost every game setting (friendly, tournament, etc.), whereas its GMC counterparts often have many limits, either set within the game or as house rules. Not many people will play with you (or consider it a fair game) if you want to play an unbound list of a half dozen wraithknights and a revenant or stormsurges and Ta'unar's or whatever, and you certainly wouldn't get them into any competitive environment. On the other hand, 5, 6, 7 Knights? There might be some moaning, but generally, people will consider the army fair game.

The other issue is just that the playing a half dozen knights is just a whole lot easier and forgiving than commanding an army of 60-100 models. And, you won't miss any models

**Tycho**

The average GMC takes 2-3 times more firepower to bring down than a Knight, and costs the same or less. All GMCs have a stacking 5+++ save on top of everything else for starters. If you force to IK to put the shield on a side, you should be able to HP it out through the front then. Compare to Stormsurge that gets 4++/5+++ from all directions.

Not sure how you arrived at those numbers, but using any one of my "TAC" lists I'll happily face GMCs and Stormsurges all day long over IKs. Because poison and because I can reliably get to CC against GMCs and Stormsurges and I can reliably tie them down even if I can't kill them easily in CC. Stormsurges aren't clearing 24" a turn in movement and GMCs aren't delivering D attacks on my way in. Comparing those units to an army of 3-5 Knights? No thank you. I'll take the 'surge/GMC every time. I mean I totally get what you're saying about the invul saves and you're not wrong, but the problem is that every single person in this thread who has argued that Knights are "easy" to deal with, has chosen to isolate one single aspect and ignore everything else. You really have to look at the whole picture IMO to see what 3-5 Knights is a seriously "win big/lose big" pain in the butt army to face. They are very strangely unique when compared to other units in the game and I'm not sure they have a true counterpart.

**Ashiraya**

Poison does not do well against GMCs.

**Martel732**

Tycho wrote:
The average GMC takes 2-3 times more firepower to bring down than a Knight, and costs the same or less. All GMCs have a stacking 5+++ save on top of everything else for starters. If you force to IK to put the shield on a side, you should be able to HP it out through the front then. Compare to Stormsurge that gets 4++/5+++ from all directions.

Not sure how you arrived at those numbers, but using any one of my "TAC" lists I'll happily face GMCs and Stormsurges all day long over IKs. Because poison and because I can reliably get to CC against GMCs and Stormsurges and I can reliably tie them down even if I can't kill them easily in CC. Stormsurges aren't clearing 24" a turn in movement and GMCs aren't delivering D attacks on my way in. Comparing those units to an army of 3-5 Knights? No thank you. I'll take the 'surge/GMC every time. I mean I totally get what you're saying about the invul saves and you're not wrong, but the problem is that every single person in this thread who has argued that Knights are "easy" to deal with, has chosen to isolate one single aspect and ignore everything else. You really have to look at the whole picture IMO to see what 3-5 Knights is a seriously "win big/lose big" pain in the butt army to face. They are very strangely unique when compared to other units in the game and I'm not sure they have a true counterpart.

I've fought 3-5 knights. It's much easier than dual WK. Or Stormsurge with Riptide wing. Once you kill 3 out of 5 knights, they physically can't score enough points to win.

Poison is useless vs GMCs and HTH is almost the same as IKs. D is overkill vs most targets except guess what? MCs and GMCs.

**agnosto**

Talys wrote:
As has been mentioned, the real strength of IK is not in the unit's points/model efficiency, it's in the ability to easily take as many of them as you want in almost every game setting (friendly, tournament, etc.), whereas its GMC counterparts often have many limits, either set within the game or as house rules. Not many people will play with you (or consider it a fair game) if you want to play an unbound list of a half dozen wraithknights and a revenant or stormsurges and Ta'unar's or whatever, and you certainly wouldn't get them into any competitive environment. On the other hand, 5, 6, 7 Knights? There might be some moaning, but generally, people will consider the army fair game.

The other issue is just that the playing a half dozen knights is just a whole lot easier and forgiving than commanding an army of 60-100 models. And, you won't miss any models

There were a number of factors that drew me to a knight army:
1. Easy to paint with my poor skills and small patience.
2. Fun to put together.
3. Few models so less painting and less hauling.
4. Love of big, stompy robots.

My one regret, I bought them before GW released the new versions and now have several without carapace weapons since GW doesn't sell the sprue separately.

**Talys**

@agnosto - your reasons for liking a knight army are great ones, and I suspect that this draws a lot of people other than the GMC advantages.

They are also very well-tooled models as far as big-stompy robots go -- meaning all the fidly bits fit together painlessly, and the model holds together well for gameplay. The Knights are also nice in that whether you spend a little time or a lot of time on them, you can make them look distinctive and nice-looking.

OTOH, when you compare them with other big giant stompies (riptides, wraithknights, stormsurges and a big chunk of the FW stuff), I think they're not as good singly for the points cost. Which is just fine to me; I think it makes the Knight armies much more palatable.

On the issue of the sprue -- I agree -- it would be wonderful if the extra sprue sold separately! On the bright side, the 2-knights game is a fantastic value. I just wish it came with better decals, or that GW sold Knight decal sheets.

**Tycho**

I've fought 3-5 knights. It's much easier than dual WK. Or Stormsurge with Riptide wing. Once you kill 3 out of 5 knights, they physically can't score enough points to win.

Poison is useless vs GMCs and HTH is almost the same as IKs. D is overkill vs most targets except guess what? MCs and GMCs.

You made it sound like you were talking ONE 'Surge and One Knight. Yeah dude, Riptide wing sucks to play against unless you're prepared for it. No one has argued that. No one has even argued that Knights are the be-all end all. The point most have been making is that 3-5 Knights presents a very unique challenge that becomes extremely "paper/rock/scissors".