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Martel732 wrote:
Plasma guns on the side armor. Autocanns are okay vs front armor because you can start pinging from turn one.

Like everything else, knights get more manageable if you leave the russ hulls at home. Because most russes do struggle vs knights.

So, you're advocating IG take mass S7 to deal with Imperial Knights?

Autocannon is 2 shots, 1/2 miss, 1/6 glance, 1/2 shielded = 1/12 HP each. So, I only need 72 Autocannon shots to drop a Knight from the front.

Side? OK. Plasmagun is 1 shot, 1/2 miss, 1/3 glance+ = 1/6 HP each. That's 36 Plasma shots, of which 6 will Get Hot, killing 4 Guardsmen for -80+ pts. Also, I need to get the infantry up close. If they're close enough to shoot Plasma, they're close enough to be charged and stomped, because those Guardsmen aren't doing jack squat in HtH.

Martel732 wrote:
Plasma guns on the side armor. Autocanns are okay vs front armor because you can start pinging from turn one.

Like everything else, knights get more manageable if you leave the russ hulls at home. Because most russes do struggle vs knights.

And how are the plasma guns getting to the side armour? On a BS3 platform, I need 3 plasma gunners within 12" to get a single glance/pen, assuming as well the shield is not on the facing I've managed to get those plasma guns into position at.

Autocannons need 6s, meaning I need 6 autocannons to get a single glance on, which, if I'm shooting from turn 1 on, I can nearly guarantee the shield will be on that facing, therefore doubling the number of autocannons I need.

Now think of the units those weapons will be on. That many autocannons are found in terrible HWS, or in expensive blobs of 50 Guardsmen doing little else than shielding the autocannon teams within.

Plasma guns come on either the basic infantry squad, vets, or stormies. Vets are the only good unit of those, but again, how are they getting to side armour without the Knight killing them first?

While I am generally on the 'Knights are problematic' side, the rapid fire battlecannon is something you guys are too scared of. No one fears a couple of Russes and people are often content to ignore them. While the Knight's melee abilities is another matter, its cannon is still made too big a deal.

@Blacksails, Plasma guns are also available in the CCS, PCS, and SWS. If we look at the points per glance for any of those, and include the Gets Hot! losses, I'm not sure they're particularly effective.

But the 24" range to get around to the side? Yeah, I'm not sure how that's going. Maybe he can put them in a FW Chimera with the Autocannon turret upgrade? Is that still legal?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
While I am generally on the 'Knights are problematic' side, the rapid fire battlecannon is something you guys are too scared of. No one fears a couple of Russes and people are often content to ignore them. While the Knight's melee abilities is another matter, its cannon is still made too big a deal.

A squadron of Russes is very slow and unwieldy to move and position, so their Battlecannon aren't a big deal.

A Knight is fast and very agile, so starting Turn 2, he will be able to Enfilade; Turn 3? Shoot nearly anything just about anywhere. And the ability to charge and consolidate only further enhances the effect of the effectively unlimited range RFBC.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@Blacksails, Plasma guns are also available in the CCS, PCS, and SWS. If we look at the points per glance for any of those, and include the Gets Hot! losses, I'm not sure they're particularly effective.

But the 24" range to get around to the side? Yeah, I'm not sure how that's going. Maybe he can put them in a FW Chimera with the Autocannon turret upgrade? Is that still legal?

Forgot about the command teams. And the SWS, because they're terrible.

The autocannon turret upgrade is as legal as anything else in the game at this point. Its in a FW list, and its a sensible option that is hardly gamebreaking. Still, I find it hard to believe the chimeras will somehow dictate the terms of engagement when the knights are more reliably popping the chimeras and then chomping the insides next turn.

The standard Russ has a 72" range. You cannot really give the threat range as an argument.

Guys, guys, its Martel. Anything not Blood Angles is really powerful and out performs everything, especially Guard. Dont forget, blobguard with two priests and two psykers is an unstoppable force of death and destruction.

 Blacksails wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@Blacksails, Plasma guns are also available in the CCS, PCS, and SWS. If we look at the points per glance for any of those, and include the Gets Hot! losses, I'm not sure they're particularly effective.

But the 24" range to get around to the side? Yeah, I'm not sure how that's going. Maybe he can put them in a FW Chimera with the Autocannon turret upgrade? Is that still legal?

Forgot about the command teams. And the SWS, because they're terrible.

The autocannon turret upgrade is as legal as anything else in the game at this point. Its in a FW list, and its a sensible option that is hardly gamebreaking. Still, I find it hard to believe the chimeras will somehow dictate the terms of engagement when the knights are more reliably popping the chimeras and then chomping the insides next turn.

Well, yeah.

Thing is, if it's only in that FW list, then everything has to be from that FW list... If the AC is something regular that IG can take, then I'd be interested in upgrading.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The standard Russ has a 72" range. You cannot really give the threat range as an argument.

The point is that the Russ is too slow to make effective use of the range. A Knight is fast enough to make excellent use of its range.

Consider 2 IKTs with RFBCs against 5 LRBTs. Who auto-wins? The IKTs, of course, because they will set up a crossfire that is impossible for the Russes to match. Especially as the Russes are forced into limited retrograde movement to prevent being charged and auto-D'd in Assault.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@Blacksails, Plasma guns are also available in the CCS, PCS, and SWS. If we look at the points per glance for any of those, and include the Gets Hot! losses, I'm not sure they're particularly effective.

But the 24" range to get around to the side? Yeah, I'm not sure how that's going. Maybe he can put them in a FW Chimera with the Autocannon turret upgrade? Is that still legal?

Forgot about the command teams. And the SWS, because they're terrible.

The autocannon turret upgrade is as legal as anything else in the game at this point. Its in a FW list, and its a sensible option that is hardly gamebreaking. Still, I find it hard to believe the chimeras will somehow dictate the terms of engagement when the knights are more reliably popping the chimeras and then chomping the insides next turn.

Well, yeah.

Thing is, if it's only in that FW list, then everything has to be from that FW list... If the AC is something regular that IG can take, then I'd be interested in upgrading.

Even then, the knights are faster than the Chimeras. The issue with the Knights is not just the firepower or the resiliency, it is the combination of both of those on a very fast, very manoeuvrable chassis that can reposition itself rapidly and lay down a hell of a lot of firepower, whilst also being capable of charging units and destroying them and anything near by with its stomps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The standard Russ has a 72" range. You cannot really give the threat range as an argument.

The point is that the Russ is too slow to make effective use of the range. A Knight is fast enough to make excellent use of its range.

Consider 2 IKTs with RFBCs against 5 LRBTs. Who auto-wins? The IKTs, of course, because they will set up a crossfire that is impossible for the Russes to match. Especially as the Russes are forced into limited retrograde movement to prevent being charged and auto-D'd in Assault.

No they wont, the Knights will just assault the Russes and destroy them on turn 1. 2 if the Russes are far enough back.

 master of ordinance wrote:

No they wont, the Knights will just assault the Russes and destroy them on turn 1. 2 if the Russes are far enough back.

Turn 1?

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

No they wont, the Knights will just assault the Russes and destroy them on turn 1. 2 if the Russes are far enough back.

Turn 1?

Start 12" on, move 12", then roll for assault. Your target is a tank so it wont be able to overwatch. that said, that is only if the Russ player is an egit and has started anywhere other than the back of his deployment zone.

" Dont forget, blobguard with two priests and two psykers is an unstoppable force of death and destruction."

It's obviously better than anything you field.

How does anyone get on the side of an IK? Wait for them to move out to score points and then flank them. A couple of vendettas is actually really bad for IKs.

I'd assume the LRBTs are deployed on the backline and spread out to try and get some side shots, so the wings get charged on Turn 2, then the center is crossfired from the flanks.

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Plasma guns on the side armor. Autocanns are okay vs front armor because you can start pinging from turn one.

Like everything else, knights get more manageable if you leave the russ hulls at home. Because most russes do struggle vs knights.

And how are the plasma guns getting to the side armour? On a BS3 platform, I need 3 plasma gunners within 12" to get a single glance/pen, assuming as well the shield is not on the facing I've managed to get those plasma guns into position at.

Autocannons need 6s, meaning I need 6 autocannons to get a single glance on, which, if I'm shooting from turn 1 on, I can nearly guarantee the shield will be on that facing, therefore doubling the number of autocannons I need.

Now think of the units those weapons will be on. That many autocannons are found in terrible HWS, or in expensive blobs of 50 Guardsmen doing little else than shielding the autocannon teams within.

Plasma guns come on either the basic infantry squad, vets, or stormies. Vets are the only good unit of those, but again, how are they getting to side armour without the Knight killing them first?

I manage it well enough. Knights don't get that many shots compared to Eldar or Tau, really.

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Plasma guns on the side armor. Autocanns are okay vs front armor because you can start pinging from turn one.

Like everything else, knights get more manageable if you leave the russ hulls at home. Because most russes do struggle vs knights.

And how are the plasma guns getting to the side armour?

They aren't. Plasma and Autocannons are not a solution to 1 Knight, let alone a group of 5.

Martel732 wrote:
" Dont forget, blobguard with two priests and two psykers is an unstoppable force of death and destruction."

It's obviously better than anything you field.

How does anyone get on the side of an IK? Wait for them to move out to score points and then flank them. A couple of vendettas is actually really bad for IKs.

So good in fact that it has been demonstrated several times for all too seejust how bad it is, to the point that unless you have amazing luck most armies will have crippled, if not removed, it by turn two/three.

The thing is Martel, an army of Knights does not move out in itty bitty bits, t moves as a whole, watches its flanks and wipes out any threats. I have seen one of my local players wipe out a SM army on his own with a Knight household. the marines managed to kill one of them.

It wasn't a very good space marine army, then. Your meta sounds rather weak, which makes your predicament even more baffling to me. Other than your refusal to stop using some of the most overcosted units in your book, I mean. If the marine lists can't stop IKs, your Russes should run over them.

Martel732 wrote:
It wasn't a very good space marine army, then. Your meta sounds rather weak, which makes your predicament even more baffling to me. Other than your refusal to stop using some of the most overcosted units in your book, I mean. If the marine lists can't stop IKs, your Russes should run over them.

Well, then, I guess you're good to play all Knights all the time. Good for you. I guess your IK players must suck even worse than MoO's meta, because Russes aren't ever running over Knights. Or SMs.

Oh, I get it! All these "fear the Knight" posts have a single common thread, the total lack of sufficient line of sight blocking terrain in their games. It's not the Knights, it's the fact that they play on Planet Bowling Ball!

You guys do know that Knights have trouble going around terrain since walls became impassable? Or that Knights can't shoot through tall buildings without giving up cover saves? Or that you can use the same terrain to bottleneck large models giving yourself lanes of fire to hit side and rear armor?

It's almost as if the complaints are hypothetical rather than justified.

SJ

Oh, I get it! All these "fear the Knight" posts have a single common thread, the total lack of sufficient line of sight blocking terrain in their games. It's not the Knights, it's the fact that they play on Planet Bowling Ball!

You guys do know that Knights have trouble going around terrain since walls became impassable? Or that Knights can't shoot through tall buildings without giving up cover saves? Or that you can use the same terrain to bottleneck large models giving yourself lanes of fire to hit side and rear armor?

It's almost as if the complaints are hypothetical rather than justified.

Sight blocking terrain helps with pretty much everything and too many people don't use enough of it. That's very true. That said, even with a decent amount of LoS blockers, 5 Knights remain mobile enough to get around it. Plus, it works both ways. If there's a lot of LoS blockers, the army playing AGAINST the Knights is also going to have issues delivering heavy weapons fire to said Knights. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're really getting at. First you advocate for something that has been demonstrated (both in this thread and in actual games) to not be accurate, then you suggest tying a Knight down with snotlings, and now we're all just playing theory hammer even though you are the one now using pure theory (you have no idea what terrain everyone here uses).

It IS true that using terrain is key and I think your point about that is the first thing I've seen you say that I agree with. The thing is though, as several have already said, few people are saying Knights are ZOMG OP. The points most are making are:

1. A single Knight is generally not a huge deal. Tough, but not something most would consider OP

2. Knights in groups (3 or more) become exponentially more difficult and create a very "paper/rock/scissors" type situation that, more-so than any other army in the game tend to weirdly shift the meta. Notice that nowhere in that statement has anyone said "Multiple Knights are impossible to defeat and are OP". It's just that a list tailored specifically to beat Knights is going to struggle against most other armies very significantly, while a list NOT tailored to beat Knights has almost zero chance of doing so.

3. Knights are not comparable to vehicles. You cannot simply isolate hull points (for example) and say that's it, it's just like stripping hull points off a tank. What makes multiple Knights potentially tough is the amalgamation of all their abilities rather than any one ability/trait in isolation.

I'm surprised how controversial those points appear to be ...

" Russes aren't ever running over Knights. Or SMs"

I never said anything about Russes vs Knights. Normally, SMs don't have trouble with Russes, but he's claiming they are helpless vs Knights, which puts Russes back into play for sure.

"NOT tailored to beat Knights has almost zero chance of doing so. "

Weapons that hurt MCs and GMCs also hurt vehicles, only moreso because of the damage table. So are people bringing lists that can't fight MCs, GMCs, or vehicles? AV 12 is pretty easy to HP out.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Oh, I get it! All these "fear the Knight" posts have a single common thread, the total lack of sufficient line of sight blocking terrain in their games. It's not the Knights, it's the fact that they play on Planet Bowling Ball!

You guys do know that Knights have trouble going around terrain since walls became impassable? Or that Knights can't shoot through tall buildings without giving up cover saves? Or that you can use the same terrain to bottleneck large models giving yourself lanes of fire to hit side and rear armor?

It's almost as if the complaints are hypothetical rather than justified.

SJ

You are aware that terrain goes both ways, right? And that generally the more mobile force makes better use of cluttered terrain as they can dictate the ranges and fire lanes. So having a gak load of cover doesn't really impede Knights. Also because armies that rely on ranged shooting, like say Guard, will be penalized in such terrain while Knights are happy to enjoy the free cover and assault, which they're conveniently good at too.

No, he's not aware, as I've tried to explain that concept to him over and over. The terrain set up he describes heavily favors Grey Knights, which may or may not be a coincidence.

Well, no kidding that terrain matters!

The interesting thing is that Knights are generally OK with most terrain. HUGE buildings are good to cover where the shield isn't.

LOTS of Difficult Terrain is great, as Knights ignore that, whereas their opponents don't. In effect, it makes Knights even faster than they already are!

Just need wide enough alleys to march and shoot and charge through....

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Well, no kidding that terrain matters!

The interesting thing is that Knights are generally OK with most terrain. HUGE buildings are good to cover where the shield isn't.

LOTS of Difficult Terrain is great, as Knights ignore that, whereas their opponents don't. In effect, it makes Knights even faster than they already are!

Just need wide enough alleys to march and shoot and charge through....

Knights don't just ignore terrain. They have to roll 2d6 and go double the highest result

 CrownAxe wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Well, no kidding that terrain matters!

The interesting thing is that Knights are generally OK with most terrain. HUGE buildings are good to cover where the shield isn't.

LOTS of Difficult Terrain is great, as Knights ignore that, whereas their opponents don't. In effect, it makes Knights even faster than they already are!

Just need wide enough alleys to march and shoot and charge through....

Knights don't just ignore terrain. They have to roll 2d6 and go double the highest result

Which effectively ignores it, as most terrain is scaled for an undoubled roll.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Well, no kidding that terrain matters!

The interesting thing is that Knights are generally OK with most terrain. HUGE buildings are good to cover where the shield isn't.

LOTS of Difficult Terrain is great, as Knights ignore that, whereas their opponents don't. In effect, it makes Knights even faster than they already are!

Just need wide enough alleys to march and shoot and charge through....

Knights don't just ignore terrain. They have to roll 2d6 and go double the highest result

Which effectively ignores it, as most terrain is scaled for an undoubled roll.

Touching terrain slows you down no matter what size it is. Getting across it doesn't mean you suddenly get to go back to moving full speed. if the highest die you rolled happened to be a 2 then the IK is only going 4" (8" less then normal), even if the difficult terrain was the size of an ant

 master of ordinance wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
Sorry, my bad. I was thinking about the cannon. Anyway, even with a single shot Melta this thing is still badass.

Actually, the melta gun is the worst weapon option for the Knights. It isn't nearly as scary as it sounds.

I will second this. The cannon, on the other hand, is utterly terrifying to Infantry on foot.

Against a tank heavy lists, which I often use it is.

Martel732 wrote:
It wasn't a very good space marine army, then. Your meta sounds rather weak, which makes your predicament even more baffling to me. Other than your refusal to stop using some of the most overcosted units in your book, I mean. If the marine lists can't stop IKs, your Russes should run over them.

The Marine player in question was a tournament player who is damn good. As for overcosted units, would you care to elaborate which ones? The Russ chassis I use (LRBT, Exterminator, Eradicator) are probably the leat overpriced and most effective ones and as time has shown, there are no units that can fill the Russes roll as a mobile fire support/line breaker unit.

" there are no units that can fill the Russes roll as a mobile fire support/line breaker unit."

They can't do that job when they're dead. Also, it's silly to use an ordinance gun on a heavy tank.

Your meta still sounds weak from lack of Eldar, which would cure you real fast of ever fielding a vehicle worth more than say 80-90 pts. Although I'm surprised you aren't sick of getting two-shotted by grav at this point.

So what's this marine player using? Both gladius and invisible centstar walk all over knights. As does a twc superfriends list.