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Martel732 wrote:
" there are no units that can fill the Russes roll as a mobile fire support/line breaker unit."

They can't do that job when they're dead. Also, it's silly to use an ordinance gun on a heavy tank.

And yet there is nothing else that can do what they do, so until they are either un-nerfed or made cheaper they will continue to be all that we have. As for the Ordinance gun thing, well you just dont purchase sponsons to go with them and you are fine.

Your meta still sounds weak from lack of Eldar, which would cure you real fast of ever fielding a vehicle worth more than say 80-90 pts. Although I'm surprised you aren't sick of getting two-shotted by grav at this point.

Oh do not worry, there are a couple of Eldar players. One tries not to be too hard on his opponent but isnt often in and the other is a power gamer and neither of them is a problem as very few people play them more than once (more due to the latters wipe out list).

So what's this marine player using? Both gladius and invisible centstar walk all over knights. As does a twc superfriends list.

Not a clue - it was ages ago. A full Knight household has not been used for a long time on account of no one wanting to face them.

Tycho wrote:

3. Knights are not comparable to vehicles. You cannot simply isolate hull points (for example) and say that's it, it's just like stripping hull points off a tank. What makes multiple Knights potentially tough is the amalgamation of all their abilities rather than any one ability/trait in isolation.

Exactly, it's the full package.

If you could take a squadron of three russes, not take any models away until all of the squadron's hull points are gone, let them use the super heavy damage chart changes, let them split fire freely AND let them move 12" while still firing to full effect then they might be considered to be a rather better unit.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" there are no units that can fill the Russes roll as a mobile fire support/line breaker unit."

They can't do that job when they're dead. Also, it's silly to use an ordinance gun on a heavy tank.

And yet there is nothing else that can do what they do, so until they are either un-nerfed or made cheaper they will continue to be all that we have. As for the Ordinance gun thing, well you just dont purchase sponsons to go with them and you are fine.

Your meta still sounds weak from lack of Eldar, which would cure you real fast of ever fielding a vehicle worth more than say 80-90 pts. Although I'm surprised you aren't sick of getting two-shotted by grav at this point.

Oh do not worry, there are a couple of Eldar players. One tries not to be too hard on his opponent but isnt often in and the other is a power gamer and neither of them is a problem as very few people play them more than once (more due to the latters wipe out list).

So what's this marine player using? Both gladius and invisible centstar walk all over knights. As does a twc superfriends list.

Not a clue - it was ages ago. A full Knight household has not been used for a long time on account of no one wanting to face them.

Sounds like your group ostracizes good lists. Why are you even concerned about IKs, then? That's assuming they even count as good. This makes me wonder even more why you are struggling with IG.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" there are no units that can fill the Russes roll as a mobile fire support/line breaker unit."

They can't do that job when they're dead. Also, it's silly to use an ordinance gun on a heavy tank.

And yet there is nothing else that can do what they do, so until they are either un-nerfed or made cheaper they will continue to be all that we have. As for the Ordinance gun thing, well you just dont purchase sponsons to go with them and you are fine.

Your meta still sounds weak from lack of Eldar, which would cure you real fast of ever fielding a vehicle worth more than say 80-90 pts. Although I'm surprised you aren't sick of getting two-shotted by grav at this point.

Oh do not worry, there are a couple of Eldar players. One tries not to be too hard on his opponent but isnt often in and the other is a power gamer and neither of them is a problem as very few people play them more than once (more due to the latters wipe out list).

So what's this marine player using? Both gladius and invisible centstar walk all over knights. As does a twc superfriends list.

Not a clue - it was ages ago. A full Knight household has not been used for a long time on account of no one wanting to face them.

Sounds like your group ostracizes good lists. Why are you even concerned about IKs, then? That's assuming they even count as good. This makes me wonder even more why you are struggling with IG.

Ostracises good lists? How? Oh, you mean because we dont all want to be wiped out by turn two? Fair do's.

No one is letting off the gas pedal for me. I imagine ba might actually be effective in your meta. But who wants to lose to ba?

At any rate, the hull point mechanic really limits how op iks can get.

Martel732 wrote:
No one is letting off the gas pedal for me. I imagine ba might actually be effective in your meta. But who wants to lose to ba?

haha, nah, I get what you mean and I dont get much luxury either. I just avoid the power gamers or the ones who could flatten me as easy as snapping their fingers.

At any rate, the hull point mechanic really limits how op iks can get.

Hell Martel, I would never have ever thought that anyone could ever make me thankful for that awful mechanic

 master of ordinance wrote:
there are no units that can fill the Russes roll as a mobile fire support/line breaker unit.

Imperial Knight Titans fill that roll very effectively!

I think the real issue is with Russes not being good rather than Imperial Knights being too good. Even if Imperial Knights didn't exist, it wouldnt suddenly make Russes worth it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think the real issue is with Russes not being good rather than Imperial Knights being too good. Even if Imperial Knights didn't exist, it wouldnt suddenly make Russes worth it.

That's why I've been trying to say here. AV 12 just isn't that good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think the real issue is with Russes not being good rather than Imperial Knights being too good. Even if Imperial Knights didn't exist, it wouldnt suddenly make Russes worth it.

But you'd take them, because otherwise IG would have no durable ranged firepower!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think the real issue is with Russes not being good rather than Imperial Knights being too good. Even if Imperial Knights didn't exist, it wouldnt suddenly make Russes worth it.

But you'd take them, because otherwise IG would have no durable ranged firepower!

They still don't, even if you take them. That's the problem. Russes are neither durable, nor provide what I'd call firepower.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think the real issue is with Russes not being good rather than Imperial Knights being too good. Even if Imperial Knights didn't exist, it wouldnt suddenly make Russes worth it.

But you'd take them, because otherwise IG would have no durable ranged firepower!

Or you could spam FW Artillery or Veterans. Russes aren't doing anything special...

Compared to a Guardsman holding an Autocannon, a Russ is durable firepower. If you don't believe that, play footguard against IGAC and let us know how it goes.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Compared to a Guardsman holding an Autocannon, a Russ is durable firepower. If you don't believe that, play footguard against IGAC and let us know how it goes.

And what would your point be? FW Artillery is durable if you want durable. Pretty sure that isn't the shtick of the IG anyway.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Compared to a Guardsman holding an Autocannon, a Russ is durable firepower. If you don't believe that, play footguard against IGAC and let us know how it goes.

And what would your point be? FW Artillery is durable if you want durable. Pretty sure that isn't the shtick of the IG anyway.

Yes, but it requires forking out hundreds, and even then the Artillery is still less mobile than the Russ. When it comes to "mobile" firepower, nothing in the Guard codex can beat the Russ.

(BTW Martel, what is this obsession of yours with Guard Infantry?)

 master of ordinance wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Compared to a Guardsman holding an Autocannon, a Russ is durable firepower. If you don't believe that, play footguard against IGAC and let us know how it goes.

And what would your point be? FW Artillery is durable if you want durable. Pretty sure that isn't the shtick of the IG anyway.

Yes, but it requires forking out hundreds, and even then the Artillery is still less mobile than the Russ. When it comes to "mobile" firepower, nothing in the Guard codex can beat the Russ.

(BTW Martel, what is this obsession of yours with Guard Infantry?)

Why do you need more mobility with the Russ? Almost all the weapons are above 36".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Compared to a Guardsman holding an Autocannon, a Russ is durable firepower. If you don't believe that, play footguard against IGAC and let us know how it goes.

And what would your point be? FW Artillery is durable if you want durable. Pretty sure that isn't the shtick of the IG anyway.

Yes, but it requires forking out hundreds, and even then the Artillery is still less mobile than the Russ. When it comes to "mobile" firepower, nothing in the Guard codex can beat the Russ.

(BTW Martel, what is this obsession of yours with Guard Infantry?)

Why do you need more mobility with the Russ? Almost all the weapons are above 36".

Because static gun lines went out of style about the time people stopped using flintlocks?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Compared to a Guardsman holding an Autocannon, a Russ is durable firepower. If you don't believe that, play footguard against IGAC and let us know how it goes.

And what would your point be? FW Artillery is durable if you want durable. Pretty sure that isn't the shtick of the IG anyway.

Yes, but it requires forking out hundreds, and even then the Artillery is still less mobile than the Russ. When it comes to "mobile" firepower, nothing in the Guard codex can beat the Russ.

(BTW Martel, what is this obsession of yours with Guard Infantry?)

Because you can leverage massive force multipliers that don't exist for vehicles.

INB4 Martel says guardblobs beat Knights!

That's actually an interesting matchup with divination support. With misfortune, you can even strip HPs with incidental heavy bolters. Oh... Wyverns can chip off the side armor as well. I don't think shred works on penetration rolls, but still. You can't really miss a knight with a Wyvern.

Wyverns are S4 right?

Oh yeah, Rending.

Of course, misfortune with IG blobs is dumb. They'll down a wraithknight or so per turn.

I think the IG naysayers are underestimating the power of a dominating psychic phase. Go look up demons for how that goes. By my estimations, a misfortuned knight is a dead knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Wyverns are S4 right?

Oh yeah, Rending.

Of course, misfortune with IG blobs is dumb. They'll down a wraithknight or so per turn.

I know, right? Russes are much better, downing zero wraithknights in a whole game.

Ashiraya wrote:Wyverns are S4 right?

Oh yeah, Rending.

Of course, misfortune with IG blobs is dumb. They'll down a wraithknight or so per turn.

Martel732 wrote:I think the IG naysayers are underestimating the power of a dominating psychic phase. Go look up demons for how that goes. By my estimations, a misfortuned knight is a dead knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Wyverns are S4 right?

Oh yeah, Rending.

Of course, misfortune with IG blobs is dumb. They'll down a wraithknight or so per turn.

I know, right? Russes are much better, downing zero wraithknights in a whole game.

I dont even....

Do you two even real-no, I am not going to ask it, I really do not want the answer. Look, just understand this: There is a major reason why, no matter what Marine players and the like say, IG blobs with psychic support are very, very VERY unpopular with Guard players.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Ashiraya wrote:Wyverns are S4 right?

Oh yeah, Rending.

Of course, misfortune with IG blobs is dumb. They'll down a wraithknight or so per turn.

Martel732 wrote:I think the IG naysayers are underestimating the power of a dominating psychic phase. Go look up demons for how that goes. By my estimations, a misfortuned knight is a dead knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Wyverns are S4 right?

Oh yeah, Rending.

Of course, misfortune with IG blobs is dumb. They'll down a wraithknight or so per turn.

I know, right? Russes are much better, downing zero wraithknights in a whole game.

I dont even....

Do you two even real-no, I am not going to ask it, I really do not want the answer. Look, just understand this: There is a major reason why, no matter what Marine players and the like say, IG blobs with psychic support are very, very VERY unpopular with Guard players.

Because they don't want to paint that much? Understandable but oh well.

Pretty popular with my IG players.

"very, very VERY unpopular with Guard players."

The same guard players that can't even beat BA according to you? Those guard players?

I think ive only ever seen one of these psychically supported blobs in 7E in person. They're really not what draws most people to IG or how most people want to play the army. They also have a humongous number of common and powerful hardcounters.

hardcounters? Within the IKTs, 2x large blasts far outside IG range, followed by 3 small blasts in HtH is pretty good.

And correct that blobguard is not what IG should be. If that was the concept, I never would have bought any.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think ive only ever seen one of these psychically supported blobs in 7E in person. They're really not what draws most people to IG or how most people want to play the army. They also have a humongous number of common and powerful hardcounters.

I can mostly agree with this.

Sorry to bother, but a quick question for you fellows before you go back to arguing. A Harridan can still murder a knight or two in short order, yes?

Definitely. It's Forgeworld, so it has to be good.