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So I know there are a few of these going around this forum about this topic, but I wanted to put my input in I guess.

So I love Warhammer, specifically 40k. I love the lore, I love the armies, I love the feeling, I love the atmosphere, the fluff, I love the models, I love the game (no matter how complex) and I'm happy to pay the GW prices (although I'd love for them to be lower). And a lot of people have been saying 40k is dying. Majority of my friends have stopped playing, the rules have split enite close knit groups of friends at a gaming store I used to go to, but I'm still in love with the game.

So I ask, is the hope completely lost? Is GW completely dependent on 8th edition being amazing for the game to continue? Will the models stop coming if 8th sucks?

Is GW's future completely dependent on 8th edition or will they be able to fall to the side and allow fanboys like me to keep engaging their addiction with the few of their kind who feel the same way? Does anyone on Dakka feel the same as me?

Thanks for reading and hopefully replying! ~

-Mikey

I doubt GW will ever stop 40K until they financially collapse.

GW's losing market share, but that's a biiig differance from dying.

Bad rules won't stop them from making models. While I don't trust any statistic someone says on the matter, it's not unbelievable that a large portion of the player base just collects the models, the question is, is that portion along with the people who will play 40k no matter what enough to sustain GW?

Reading 'the sky is falling!' forum discussion threads isn't actually about to make 40k die. The fact of the matter is that GW's rules are so poorly-done because there's no pressure on them to change them, they're so far ahead of the competition on model quality that the rules aren't hurting them much.

It will keep going. It's changing, but the FAQ Draft, the Start Collecting boxes, and their turning back to tournaments are good signs. Hope is on the horizon.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Reading 'the sky is falling!' forum discussion threads isn't actually about to make 40k die. The fact of the matter is that GW's rules are so poorly-done because there's no pressure on them to change them, they're so far ahead of the competition on model quality that the rules aren't hurting them much.

hrm, model quality is hard to argue. GW's IP is what sets them apart. Other companies put out fantastic models. Stuff like Infinity, Dropzone Commander, Heavy Gear, FoW's tank sculpts, etc.

GW's strengths are its IP and its inertia as having been the only game around for 15 years and having beennthe big dog for 8 or so years before that. Many other places handily match GW on models.

 jreilly89 wrote:
It will keep going. It's changing, but the FAQ Draft, the Start Collecting boxes, and their turning back to tournaments are good signs. Hope is on the horizon.

The last year has been pretty great from a fan's point of view. I can't see any justification for anyone's doom and gloom gak posting.

GW and 40K aren't dying.

Think of it more like a purging of heretics. The more toxic individuals depart from this hobby the better it becomes.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
It will keep going. It's changing, but the FAQ Draft, the Start Collecting boxes, and their turning back to tournaments are good signs. Hope is on the horizon.

The last year has been pretty great from a fan's point of view. I can't see any justification for anyone's doom and gloom shitposting.

I mean, if you ignore the atrocious balance, awful fluff writing, and GW's ability to miss huge items people have been asking for multiple editions (Legion books or chapter tactic equivalents, IG doctrines, etc)

What have they really addrd over the last year of particular value aside from finally starting to do an FAQ after several years and put out a couple sanely priced starters?

 oni wrote:
GW and 40K aren't dying.

Think of it more like a purging of heretics. The more toxic individuals depart from this hobby the better it becomes.

along with a continually declining revenue stream for GW according to their financial statements.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Reading 'the sky is falling!' forum discussion threads isn't actually about to make 40k die. The fact of the matter is that GW's rules are so poorly-done because there's no pressure on them to change them, they're so far ahead of the competition on model quality that the rules aren't hurting them much.

hrm, model quality is hard to argue. GW's IP is what sets them apart. Other companies put out fantastic models. Stuff like Infinity, Dropzone Commander, Heavy Gear, FoW's tank sculpts, etc.

GW's strengths are its IP and its inertia as having been the only game around for 15 years and having beennthe big dog for 8 or so years before that. Many other places handily match GW on models.

Model detail I'd agree on, but the models themselves, tied in with the IP, is what sets them apart. 40k especially has such history and such cool characters that I don't imagine X-Wing, Infinity, PP matching.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
It will keep going. It's changing, but the FAQ Draft, the Start Collecting boxes, and their turning back to tournaments are good signs. Hope is on the horizon.

The last year has been pretty great from a fan's point of view. I can't see any justification for anyone's doom and gloom shitposting.

Salt. Look in the other thread "Is 40k dying?". People have been claiming the end times since back in 2nd.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Reading 'the sky is falling!' forum discussion threads isn't actually about to make 40k die. The fact of the matter is that GW's rules are so poorly-done because there's no pressure on them to change them, they're so far ahead of the competition on model quality that the rules aren't hurting them much.

hrm, model quality is hard to argue. GW's IP is what sets them apart. Other companies put out fantastic models. Stuff like Infinity, Dropzone Commander, Heavy Gear, FoW's tank sculpts, etc.

GW's strengths are its IP and its inertia as having been the only game around for 15 years and having beennthe big dog for 8 or so years before that. Many other places handily match GW on models.

Model detail I'd agree on, but the models themselves, tied in with the IP, is what sets them apart. 40k especially has such history and such cool characters that I don't imagine X-Wing, Infinity, PP matching.

Right, its all tied to that IP. That said, the realities of plastics manufacturing and GW's current art trends seem to increasingly be drifting away from the styles that made 40k so interesting, increasingly like stuff from World of Warcraft or League of Legends in many kits and art pieces, at least to me.

That said, Dropzone Commander and the newer Infinity stuff is absolutely nailing it on both quality and IP counts.

you do realize world of warcraft was actually inspired BY warhammer right?

 oni wrote:
Think of it more like a purging of heretics. The more toxic individuals depart from this hobby the better it becomes.

I think GW is more worried about failing to attract new customers than failing to retain existing ones.

BrianDavion wrote:
you do realize world of warcraft was actually inspired BY warhammer right?

early Warcraft was yes, but it has had its own artistic styling on those inspirations for many years.

 oni wrote:
Think of it more like a purging of heretics. The more toxic individuals depart from this hobby the better it becomes.

I would say the opposite. TFG thrives on poorly written rules and WAAC players just love the current state of the game.
What's the easiest way to win at 40K? 1) Tell someone you want to play a casual 2) bring the cheesiest netlist you can find 3) crush them.
For people who just want to win at a plastic soldier's game, without any competition or fun for the opponent, a bad ruleset is just pure gold.

Bad rules only make people who care about a fair game go away.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Reading 'the sky is falling!' forum discussion threads isn't actually about to make 40k die. The fact of the matter is that GW's rules are so poorly-done because there's no pressure on them to change them, they're so far ahead of the competition on model quality that the rules aren't hurting them much.

hrm, model quality is hard to argue. GW's IP is what sets them apart. Other companies put out fantastic models. Stuff like Infinity, Dropzone Commander, Heavy Gear, FoW's tank sculpts, etc.

GW's strengths are its IP and its inertia as having been the only game around for 15 years and having beennthe big dog for 8 or so years before that. Many other places handily match GW on models.

Other people can compete on individual sculpt quality, yeah, but nobody else has customizable injection-moulded plastics in wide cross-compatible ranges and a game that encourages you to mix and match components.

An Infinity model is a beautiful sculpture, a GW model is a Lego box to build beautiful sculptures out of.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Reading 'the sky is falling!' forum discussion threads isn't actually about to make 40k die. The fact of the matter is that GW's rules are so poorly-done because there's no pressure on them to change them, they're so far ahead of the competition on model quality that the rules aren't hurting them much.

hrm, model quality is hard to argue. GW's IP is what sets them apart. Other companies put out fantastic models. Stuff like Infinity, Dropzone Commander, Heavy Gear, FoW's tank sculpts, etc.

GW's strengths are its IP and its inertia as having been the only game around for 15 years and having beennthe big dog for 8 or so years before that. Many other places handily match GW on models.

Other people can compete on individual sculpt quality, yeah, but nobody else has customizable injection-moulded plastics in wide cross-compatible ranges and a game that encourages you to mix and match components.

An Infinity model is a beautiful sculpture, a GW model is a Lego box to build beautiful sculptures out of.

Ok, that's a differentiation I'd accept, though is also subjective in value (also depends on the army, sisters or my DKoK dont get to play that game), but it's a fair point.

The key thing is many vets have mothballed their armies.

The game has a good chance to massively rebound if 8th is good. Many players, myself, have talked about how all we're waiting on is a ruleset to come back to that's worth playing.

If GW drops the ball on 8th though, it won't "kill" 40k, at least not immediately. I guarantee you though you would see an absolutely massive sell off of armies. Most players hope would be completely gone at that point.

I doubt it. With the amount of new models *cough* Deathwatch *cough* skitarii *cough* ad mech *cough* I really do not think that they are circling the drain quite as much as people fantasize about. They are not, by any means, the best company making miniatures, but they are for sure one of the biggest.

I think what we are seeing right now is the introduction of competition. For the first time in a long time, 40k is not the number 1 wargame (X-wing is), so yeah, Games Workshop finally has to actually give a feth and try. They are not used to that, so their profits are going to drop until they figure out how to not being king of hill and how to fight for their little slice of our relatively small niche.

Honestly, they are figuring it out, slowly, but they are making progress. If they do not get their gak together, smaller production companies (Raging Heroes comes to mind) will fill in where they left off, eager to snap up all of the disenfranchised players of what used to be the great empire. But, having been on top for such a long time, they have a lot of money, ideas, and resources to play around with before they will really get desperate.

As a few other people have said, it takes a gak ton of effort to turn a ship as big as GW, and from my perspective, they are deffinately trying to turn.

This threads starts to be very similar to that one: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/700939.page

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
The key thing is many vets have mothballed their armies.

The game has a good chance to massively rebound if 8th is good. Many players, myself, have talked about how all we're waiting on is a ruleset to come back to that's worth playing.

If GW drops the ball on 8th though, it won't "kill" 40k, at least not immediately. I guarantee you though you would see an absolutely massive sell off of armies. Most players hope would be completely gone at that point.

I agree.
40K is a great setting, and GW still produces superb models. Their relation with their customers is improving (but there is still a lot of animosity). If they can come up with a good ruleset, they'll be close to a homerun.
Their latest FAQ, as well as the General's handbook, are signs that they want to take their customer's opinion into consideration when making their sets of rules. AoS seems to experience a real rebound (as well as attract new player), I can see a good 8th edition having similar effects.

Manchu wrote:

 oni wrote:
Think of it more like a purging of heretics. The more toxic individuals depart from this hobby the better it becomes.

I think GW is more worried about failing to attract new customers than failing to retain existing ones.

A concern for sure and a critically important one. To attract new customers means maintaining the existing customer base as GW relies on word-of-mouth advertising. Word-of-mouth advertising equates to, no existing player base = no new recruitment.

fresus wrote:

 oni wrote:
Think of it more like a purging of heretics. The more toxic individuals depart from this hobby the better it becomes.

I would say the opposite. TFG thrives on poorly written rules and WAAC players just love the current state of the game.
What's the easiest way to win at 40K? 1) Tell someone you want to play a casual 2) bring the cheesiest netlist you can find 3) crush them.
For people who just want to win at a plastic soldier's game, without any competition or fun for the opponent, a bad ruleset is just pure gold.

Bad rules only make people who care about a fair game go away.

The idea of what you're saying here is a fair point. However, "bad rules" is subjective. I don't think 40K has "bad rules" at all and I know plenty of others who feel the same. That being said... 40K is ultimately what you/we make of it. It's like life in the sense that you can't let a few D-bag TFG's and WAAC'ers piss in your Cheerios.

"So I love Warhammer, specifically 40k. I love the lore, I love the armies, I love the feeling, I love the atmosphere, the fluff, I love the models, I love the game (no matter how complex)"

OK. I'm with you here: the IP is itself a large part of what makes 40K "work" for me.

" and I'm happy to pay the GW prices (although I'd love for them to be lower)."

You lost me there. Of late, prices have gone beyond what I'm prepared to pay, starter sets and small games (eg Lost Patrol) excepted.

"And a lot of people have been saying 40k is dying. Majority of my friends have stopped playing, the rules have split enite close knit groups of friends at a gaming store I used to go to, but I'm still in love with the game."

I'd say that, locally, it's holding its own. My local store continues to be busy, and a couple of independents nearby seem to be doing fine. I also play with friends, in their home or mine, or at Warhammer World. Your mileage may vary.

"So I ask, is the hope completely lost?"

Nope. There are problems, but unless oil prices go through the roof, sterling goes through the floor, or shareholders dump 90% of the stock, (ie an external factor) I can't see GW going to the wall anytime soon. If any of those DO happen, my toy soldier supplier going to the wall will be a minor problem alongside food, fuel and other niceties of life.

"Is GW completely dependent on 8th edition being amazing for the game to continue?"

An amazing 8th would certainly benefit sales, but it's not a deal breaker.

"We've Will the models stop coming if 8th sucks?"

Chicken & egg. The models are the bread and butter, so why would they stop. The rules are (for me at least) an excuse to acquire the models: jam on top.

" Is GW's future completely dependent on 8th edition or will they be able to fall to the side and allow fanboys like me to keep engaging their addiction with the few of their kind who feel the same way? Does anyone on Dakka feel the same as me?"

It's not all rosy. There are problems with the rules, with prices, and with some of the background (subjective). But, while I've picked up other games more recently, I haven't abandoned 40K: still *my* first choice. As always, I reserve the right to be wrong. Happy gaming!

I personally prefer to put on hold doom and gloom 40K.
2016 was a bad year not only for GW but pretty much for everything else, because of the whole Star Wars hysteria.
I hear rumors about "Sigmarasing" 40K, but all that are just blogger rumors and nothing has been confirmed yet.

Hrm, I dont think one can.blame Star Wars. GW revenues declined at about the same pace as the last few years, and while Xwing has dethroned 40k, chalking that up to just Star Wars and not also considering cost, ease of play, and clear, simple, and actively supported rules would be a mistake. Previous Star Wars and other such scifi or fantasy flicks havent dampened 40k to any significant degree before.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
a lot of people have been saying 40k is dying.

Is GW completely dependent on 8th edition being amazing for the game to continue?

Will the models stop coming if 8th sucks?

They would not be wrong. 40k *is* dying. As all games do.

GW is completely dependent on 40k 8E in order for them to stay in business. But being "amazing"? 6th and 7th were both rancid, steaming, worm-infested turds and they're still in business. If 8th isn't dramatically worse than 7th, GW will do OK. And 7th is an awfully low bar to clear.

GW will still sell models - it's not like they stopped selling WFB models when Fantasy was in far more dire straits then than 40k is today.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
hrm, model quality is hard to argue. GW's IP is what sets them apart. Other companies put out fantastic models. Stuff like Infinity, Dropzone Commander, Heavy Gear, FoW's tank sculpts, etc.

Um, what?

Infinity is exceptionally well sculpted. Beautiful proportions and detailing, exceeding GW's 54mm Inquisitor line. If not the giant rulebook, I'd consider it.

DZC is OK, but it's never been anything I'm compelled to buy "just because".

Heavy Gear? LOL. Have you seen the latest plastics? The Gears that put Heavy Gear on the map are atrocious, both relative to other plastic minis that have been released in the past few years, and relative to the reference artwork and reference metals that preceeded them. Cheap dollar store junk.

Flames of War? The resins have character, but are wildly inaccurate. I built their 1st gen plastics in the "Open Fire" starter - miserable stuff with horrible interference gaps. Their current plastics are comparable to Plastic Soldier Company, but years late to market compared to PSC.

If you want to talk about great non-GW model ranges today, my short list is Infinity and Malifaux, with PSC getting the honorable mention.

 oni wrote:
GW and 40K aren't dying.

Think of it more like a purging of heretics. The more toxic individuals depart from this hobby the better it becomes.

Yes, those Nid horde, BA and CSM players really needed to die off. Now we can all sit back and enjoy our scatterlasers and gravcannon biker hordes.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


Um, what?

Infinity is exceptionally well sculpted. Beautiful proportions and detailing, exceeding GW's 54mm Inquisitor line. If not the giant rulebook, I'd consider it.

the rules are available as a free download...and next to 40k they're positively spartan

DZC is OK, but it's never been anything I'm compelled to buy "just because".

They may not be your thing but they make great sculpts. I'm particularly enamored with the Hades, Lifthawk, and Shaltari walkers.

Heavy Gear? LOL. Have you seen the latest plastics? The Gears that put Heavy Gear on the map are atrocious, both relative to other plastic minis that have been released in the past few years, and relative to the reference artwork and reference metals that preceeded them. Cheap dollar store junk.

I havent seen the plastics beyond to early CG renders so I cant comment.

The metals and resin kits are great models however.

Flames of War? The resins have character, but are wildly inaccurate.

The worst inaccuracy Ive come across were tanks with barrels that were too thin on stuff like IS3's, but nothing anyone is going to notice from tabletop distance and the sculpting is otherwise excellent. Cant comment on the plastics because I havent played with them

I think one thing that needs to be considered about X-wing is that it's a very differant game, not just the rules, but your don;t assmnble and paint the minis etc. X-wing is more a gamers game, while 40k is a hobbyists game. this, BTW is an area where GW can be strong, but it does require a slight change, GW needs to return to their days of enchouraging players to kitbash etc. their not allowing deathwatch to take bikes and jump packs on chappys and libbys because they don't supply those minis was a bad idea. they need to really go out of their way to enchourage things.


(on that front a good idea might be a chaplain and libby "upgrade sprue"

 Vaktathi wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Infinity is exceptionally well sculpted. Beautiful proportions and detailing, exceeding GW's 54mm Inquisitor line. If not the giant rulebook, I'd consider it.

the rules are available as a free download...and next to 40k they're positively spartan

DZC is OK, but it's never been anything I'm compelled to buy "just because".

They may not be your thing but they make great sculpts. I'm particularly enamored with the Hades, Lifthawk, and Shaltari walkers.

Heavy Gear? LOL. Have you seen the latest plastics? The Gears that put Heavy Gear on the map are atrocious, both relative to other plastic minis that have been released in the past few years, and relative to the reference artwork and reference metals that preceeded them. Cheap dollar store junk.

I havent seen the plastics beyond to early CG renders so I cant comment. The metals and resin kits are great models however.

Flames of War? The resins have character, but are wildly inaccurate.

The worst inaccuracy Ive come across were tanks with barrels that were too thin on stuff like IS3's, but nothing anyone is going to notice from tabletop distance and the sculpting is otherwise excellent. Cant comment on the plastics because I havent played with them

If you have to use 40k7 as your comparison point, that's not saying much.

I Googled your examples. They're as nicely detailed and textured as one would expect from the range. Of the lot, I like the Hades pseudo-scorpion the best. At $40 USD, it's fairly priced, to boot. Still, just not quite my cup of tea.

I have some of the HG metals, and they are nice enough, but not to the point that I feel compelled to buy more. The plastics just don't work for me; however, if you didn't know better, I'm sure they're passable.

The inaccuracies are just the nature of hand sculpt hand cast minis vs CAD-designed CMC-cut plastics. I'm more of a scale models guy, so the PSC stuff speaks to me better. As playing pieces, yes, they're all fine. Hugely expensive, but perfectly OK.


Anyhow, getting back to 40k 8E, I'm sure the minis will be fine, there will be more of them released. The rules are a big question, though.