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Limited Insertion, if you haven't heard about it yet, is an optional ITS rule that restricts lists to a single combat group (on the fluff basis that a large group of fighters will be too easily noticed).


I'm curious to hear Dakka's opinion on this. Opinions at the official forums predictably range from, "The sky is falling!" to "Best decision ever."






I'm pretty optimistic about it as long as the points values are kept in check (i.e., 300 pt and under). I think it'd be nice to run for one or two missions of an ITS event to cut round times down. One argument against LI is that it's going to make lists less varied and interesting. I definitely disagree - I've already seen the lists with 8 Kuang Shi, 20 camo tokens, or 3 guided Yuan Yuan. Hopefully this produces some variation.

It's optional so as long as it's known ahead of time, and doesn't become the norm, it sounds fun!

Knowing I can use all of the more expensive options to fill a group and not get waylaid by a 20+ order opponent sounds great!

Like I said on the official forums, I don't like it. I feel that it's yet another ill-conceived attempt at "balancing" out some perceived issue for tournaments.

Some of the Sectorials(notably Ariadna) cannot really play Limited Insertion if the tournament opts to do a 300 point or higher variant, even going crazy with a list like this(balancing out the availability of models and the AVA of the units themselves):
USAriadna Ranger Force
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

9 1 1
MARAUDER (Multispectral Visor L1) Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26)
MARAUDER Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
MARAUDER Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
MARAUDER (Multispectral Visor L1) Sniper / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
MARAUDER Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
MINUTEMAN Lieutenant AP HMG / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 34)
FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
BLACKJACK AP HMG, Chest Mines, D.E.P. / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (2 | 36)
BLACKJACK T2 Sniper, Submachine Gun, Chest Mines / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 36)
DEVIL DOG Heavy Shotgun, Smoke Grenades + 1 K-9 Antipode / AP CCW. (0 | 39)
K-9 ANTIPODE AP CCW. (7)

6 SWC | 284 Points

Open in Infinity Army


That list is going to require 3 proxy models:
Minuteman LT with AP HMG(has never had a model before, still does not have one)
Blackjack with AP HMG
Blackjack T2 Sniper

And the friggin Blackjacks are, according to them, not even at the dossier stage yet because (quoting here) "We don't know what to make them look like".

That's far from fair - you could easily do a list like this, where all the models are either available or have very close analogues (Greys and Moblots acting as Minutemen), and it has specialists for ITS.

USAriadna Ranger Force
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

9 1 1
MARAUDER Paramedic (MediKit) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
MARAUDER Molotok / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
MARAUDER (Fireteam: Haris) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
MINUTEMAN AP HMG / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
MINUTEMAN (Marksmanship L1, X-Visor) AP Rifle, 2 Light Flamethrowers / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 29)
MINUTEMAN Lieutenant Rifle, 2 Light Flamethrowers / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 22)
MINUTEMAN (Forward Observer) Rifle, 2 Light Flamethrowers / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 23)
UNKNOWN RANGER (Chain of Command) Rifle / Heavy Pistol, T2 CCW, Knife. (0 | 41)
VAN ZANT (Executive Order) AP Rifle / Heavy Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 39)
DEVIL DOG Heavy Shotgun, Smoke Grenades + 1 K-9 Antipode / AP CCW. (0 | 39)
K-9 ANTIPODE AP CCW. (7)

4 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army



It's not ideal, but it's got a few tricks (Van Zant going ham with a lieutenant order, suiciding and letting the Unknown Ranger take over). The Ariadna sectorials *can* play it, but they're going to be a little tight on selection. I haven't run the numbers of Caledonians, but I had no problem doing 300 points of MRRF with any of their Link options outside of Metros. As long as you keep the missions fairly forgiving on specialists it should be OK.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
That's far from fair - you could easily do a list like this, where all the models are either available or have very close analogues (Greys and Moblots acting as Minutemen), and it has specialists for ITS.

USAriadna Ranger Force
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

9 1 1
MARAUDER Paramedic (MediKit) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
MARAUDER Molotok / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
MARAUDER (Fireteam: Haris) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
MINUTEMAN AP HMG / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
MINUTEMAN (Marksmanship L1, X-Visor) AP Rifle, 2 Light Flamethrowers / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 29)
MINUTEMAN Lieutenant Rifle, 2 Light Flamethrowers / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 22)
MINUTEMAN (Forward Observer) Rifle, 2 Light Flamethrowers / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 23)
UNKNOWN RANGER (Chain of Command) Rifle / Heavy Pistol, T2 CCW, Knife. (0 | 41)
VAN ZANT (Executive Order) AP Rifle / Heavy Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 39)
DEVIL DOG Heavy Shotgun, Smoke Grenades + 1 K-9 Antipode / AP CCW. (0 | 39)
K-9 ANTIPODE AP CCW. (7)

4 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army



It's not ideal, but it's got a few tricks (Van Zant going ham with a lieutenant order, suiciding and letting the Unknown Ranger take over). The Ariadna sectorials *can* play it, but they're going to be a little tight on selection. As long as you keep the missions fairly forgiving on specialists it should be OK.

So rather than actually refute my point, you made it for me.

You need to throw in two high pointed characters(Unknown Ranger right now is considered too highly pointed for what he actually is; a glorified Grunt with a few skills tacked on) and you've still managed to require the same number of proxies for the time being:
AP HMG Minuteman
Marksmanship L1, X-Visor and AP Rifle is going to get its own model most likely because AP Rifles actually have a distinctive visual look and the X-Visor does have to be modeled as well
Additionally the Unknown Ranger with Rifle/Heavy Pistol is the GenCon/Interplanetario exclusive variant of The Unknown Ranger. General release is the Molotok Specialist.

 Kanluwen wrote:

So rather than actually refute my point, you made it for me.

You need to throw in two high pointed characters(Unknown Ranger right now is considered too highly pointed for what he actually is; a glorified Grunt with a few skills tacked on) and you've still managed to require the same number of proxies for the time being:
AP HMG Minuteman
Marksmanship L1, X-Visor and AP Rifle is going to get its own model most likely because AP Rifles actually have a distinctive visual look and the X-Visor does have to be modeled as well
Additionally the Unknown Ranger with Rifle/Heavy Pistol is the GenCon/Interplanetario exclusive variant of The Unknown Ranger. General release is the Molotok Specialist.

Well your point was that Ariadnan sectorials can't play Limited Insertion. When I post a list demonstrating that they can, well...that doesn't exactly substantiate the point that they can't.

As for the rest - most of that doesn't pertain to LI at all. But yes, noted, the model range in its current state will make WYSIWYG slightly more difficult for some factions than others.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So rather than actually refute my point, you made it for me.

You need to throw in two high pointed characters(Unknown Ranger right now is considered too highly pointed for what he actually is; a glorified Grunt with a few skills tacked on) and you've still managed to require the same number of proxies for the time being:
AP HMG Minuteman
Marksmanship L1, X-Visor and AP Rifle is going to get its own model most likely because AP Rifles actually have a distinctive visual look and the X-Visor does have to be modeled as well
Additionally the Unknown Ranger with Rifle/Heavy Pistol is the GenCon/Interplanetario exclusive variant of The Unknown Ranger. General release is the Molotok Specialist.

Well your point was that Ariadnan sectorials can't play Limited Insertion. When I post a list demonstrating that they can, well...that doesn't exactly substantiate the point that they can't.

You posted an incoherent list of 5 Rifles, 2 AP Rifles, 2 Heavy Flamethrowers, 6 Light Flamethrowers, and a Heavy Shotgun.

In a style of play which is likely to run TAG/HI heavy.

In the process of which, when making your list, you've ignored the big deal about Sectorials in the form of Link Teams. You have a 3 man Haris Team(great! woo! HFTs/Rifles and a Molotok! SO SCARY!) and a 3 man Minuteman Link Team with a single AP HMG.

As for the rest - most of that doesn't pertain to LI at all. But yes, noted, the model range in its current state will make WYSIWYG slightly more difficult for some factions than others.

Actually it does pertain to LI. People aren't going to pick and choose things that are not easily accessible or which do not require massive amounts of proxying.

I rather like 10 model games. It's why I got into Infinity in the first place, so I'll likely enjoy those games. That's not to say everyone will, since not every faction can really pull off a 10 model ITS list well.

However, like the optional 400pt scenarios, I doubt it will see much play. Variety doesn't seem to be what people want in ITS.

To those that want to play 10 man army. No one is stoping you to do that now. But why force rest of us to play this way?
Especially, since not all factions are equal when it comes to creating good 10 order lists.

 smurfORnot wrote:
To those that want to play 10 man army. No one is stoping you to do that now. But why force rest of us to play this way?
Especially, since not all factions are equal when it comes to creating good 10 order lists.

Mainly it has to do with the massive disparity in effectiveness in ITS, in particular, between elite, low model count lists, and spammy high model count lists. In a game of button pushing, a 10-order list has a massive difficulty in competing with a 20-order list. Honestly I can't think of any other reason CB would look for a reason to sell you fewer minis.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 smurfORnot wrote:
To those that want to play 10 man army. No one is stoping you to do that now. But why force rest of us to play this way?
Especially, since not all factions are equal when it comes to creating good 10 order lists.

Mainly it has to do with the massive disparity in effectiveness in ITS, in particular, between elite, low model count lists, and spammy high model count lists. In a game of button pushing, a 10-order list has a massive difficulty in competing with a 20-order list. Honestly I can't think of any other reason CB would look for a reason to sell you fewer minis.

Really, you can't?

TAGs are generally the things which people say "can't compete" in button pressing, high model spammy lists. TAGs are also fairly expensive investitures cash wise.
Limited Insertion makes TAGs a viable selection.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 smurfORnot wrote:
To those that want to play 10 man army. No one is stoping you to do that now. But why force rest of us to play this way?
Especially, since not all factions are equal when it comes to creating good 10 order lists.

Mainly it has to do with the massive disparity in effectiveness in ITS, in particular, between elite, low model count lists, and spammy high model count lists. In a game of button pushing, a 10-order list has a massive difficulty in competing with a 20-order list. Honestly I can't think of any other reason CB would look for a reason to sell you fewer minis.

Really, you can't?

TAGs are generally the things which people say "can't compete" in button pressing, high model spammy lists. TAGs are also fairly expensive investitures cash wise.
Limited Insertion makes TAGs a viable selection.

Not at all. You're still going to want to maximise the amount of specialists you get in a 10 model list and you want them pushing buttons not fuelling a big stompy robot.

If anything, TAGs will be less popular in limited insertion because of lack of order fuel.

Unless the rumor is true and TAG pilots will be specialists. Meh.

It's a nice option. I think that it is a good idea to offer a variety of "official" ways to play the game. And I'm certain CB wants to see more TAGs used. They are a part of the game, and always have been. The ITS has been very TAG unfriendly though.

However, Limited Insertion is a band-aid. It addresses a symptom, not the underlying cause. The cause is the scenario format ITS uses-- the whole button pushing idea. CB needs to revise the scenarios, somehow. I actually bothered to post in the Official Forums on this topic. (Not sure why. I won't read the responses.) I suggested giving 1 Command Group lists a special full order skill that allows auto-passing WIP rolls for objective, or (not such a good idea, really) penalizing multiple order groups, or giving bonuses to the WIP rolls of 1 Command groups armies. But these too are band-aids.

The scenarios themselves -- many of them anyway-- create the imbalance between high and low model count armies. Fix the scenarios and the problem solves itself.

Red Harvest - agreed. That's one main reason I've been playing lots of (modified) YAMS and 20x20 lately with my local group. Infinity is supposed to have a special operations type of feel, and ITS really loses that feel - lots of cheap dudes standing around cheerleading (in some cases, 8 Kuang Shi. What!?), crazy impetuous dudes with no self control, etc. Running those types of lists never felt right to me, and in case there's any concern over faction bias against larger armies, I play Yu Jing, Haqq, and Ariadna, so plenty of opportunity.

I'd like to see a change in format, more so than anything else. Barring that, a band aid might be a *step* in the right direction...maybe...

Best decision ever.

But seriously, I greatly prefer playing with 1 combat group, even if it's a little tough for Tohaa at 300 points while still being ITS effective. I think that CB has the data on ITS and sees swarms winning all the time and wants there to be a greater variety of viable lists, most likely so they can sell more of a variety of models, but they probably also care about the health of their game. I would prefer it if ITS had less reliance on specialists, but failing that maybe give a few more troops Special Operative so you don't have to choose between interesting profile and paramedic/FO spam.

It makes games more interesting due to that restriction. My local meta has to definitely rethink it's tactics and everything because we normally play with 15 or more regular orders at 300 Points.

I myself considering to actually play my Lizard again thanks to that

Played 2 games of this so far. Both were spectacularly entertaining with both opponents running some fairly heavy hitters.

My list was the same for both games: Tarik Mansuri as LT, Jannissary HMG, Jannissary Doctor, Ayyar w/ Rifle & DEP, Muyib heavy rocket, Farzan with CoC, Tuareg assault hacker, and a couple of bots.

Game 1) Vanilla Haqqislam vs. Yu Jing. Opponent was very heavy on HI, running Sun Tze, Yan Huo, a Hac Tao, Domaru, TR bot and several randos. First turn of the game, neither of us lost a regular order (opponent lost a monk to the Ayyar's viral pistol lol). When things started dropping they started dropping fast, and in interesting ways. Sun Tzu took a rifle to the back from the hidden deployed Tuareg, for example. Really great game...very close in the end. My opponent ended the game with 3 models on the table, but altogether they were almost 150 points (Yan Huo and a Hac Tao...forget the other).

Game 2) Vanilla Haqq vs. Vanilla Haqq. Opponent's list heavier on LI. 2 Muyibs, Azra'il, Asawira doc, Khawarij, Djanbazan sniper, Lasiq sniper, Al Hawwa assault hacker, a Fiday, and the Biker Gal with x2 LFTs. This one was the opposite of Game 1 - bloody from the start. Fiday attempted to assassinate one of the Ayyar's holoechoes (representing a Ghulam...deployed him in a really hard to access spot to make him look like a LT) but failed his infiltration roll...back into the DZ. First turn OP blew away my Farzan and one of the bots. In return, I wasted one of his Muyibs, the Fiday, and his Lasiq. In return, he wasted the Ayyar, my Muyib, and the Tuareg. Another very close game...we each had like 3 models left on the table.


All in all, this format produced very lethal games that really captured the Special Operations feel of Infinity. Each of my opponents brought Impetuous Irregular dudes, but they were there to accomplish specific goals (mainly throwing smoke and to go camo hunting) rather than just spamming them as auto-includes (because why WOULDN'T you always take 4 Ghazi Mutawwiah?). Aggressive lieutenants are a big deal because that extra order isn't diluted - it's an extra 10% efficiency if you can use it right.

Kind of like how N2 was, eh, at its best? The most enjoyable games I had were at 250 points, and with 1 command group (and playing YAMS). How many points in the lists, Nuggz, 300? The missions/scenarios? And good to hear that it was fun.

However, because Limited Insertion does *penalize* Ariadna (or appears to do so), a popular faction, I doubt that it will see much tournament use.

I do hope that CB figures out a way to satisfy everybody. I'm certain it is possible. But they won't if they listen to the fanboi/inside crowd--hmm, maybe I should write that iNside crowd

Cheers! They were 300 pt YAMS games. That's what we usually play outside of tournaments and...tournament prep...lol