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This is unfortunate. I was just getting into the Deathwatch RPG. Always loved the 40k setting and FFGs books were top notch.

 Azreal13 wrote:
That's making the assumption that a mass battle game was in the same scale.

Given the nature of some of the units (AT-ATs especially) and the scope of the battles we see when they happen, I've long been an advocate of a 10mm or smaller scale SW game.

Star Wars (original trilogy) doesn't have very many recognizable vehicles at that scale. Once you've exhausted the AT-ATs, AT-STs, and snowspeeders, what are you left with? Hoth was the only mass land battle in the original trilogy (Ewoks were closer to skirmish). Clone Wars has a bunch of vehicles that it could work with, but I doubt many would be interested in a Clone Wars mass battle game. And that would be fine for pre-painted models like X-Wing/Armada, but I don't think AT-ATs would entice anyone to take the plunge into painting. If the hobby element of customization and painting were part of their purview, then I don't think a 10mm SW land battle game would work for them, or anyone else.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Caliginous wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I can't wait to see what new company gets the rpg line.

None. No company's going to pick it up, because no company other than a huge player like FFG could afford the license, and RPGs are deader than a deady dead thing that's dead. Even the best-selling RPGs today are shipping numbers that you would not believe - in a bad way. The pen and paper RPG industry today is a niche industry in a niche market appealing to niche gamers. It's *dead*. Bereft of life, it's ceased to be. Kickstarter is about the only place left for anything non-Pathfinder. Yes we loved our FFG warhammer books. They were top notch in design and production values, I loved them, you loved them, but they sold terribly. The choice for FFG between a Star Wars license and a 40K license is no choice at all...

For me, the indicator that the 40K rpgs were not very successful was when I saw the various books appearing in my local Half Price Books stores. For those not lucky enough to have one, HPB is a large chain of used book stores that has the buying power to scoop up unsold books from publishers and distributors to resell in their own stores. HPB having new copies of the books usually means they weren't selling enough at the distributor level, so the distributor was willing to take a much smaller profit just to move them.

These days, board games are taking over the market from RPGs. Pathfinder and DnD will still chug along, being the biggest names around, but even they have board games and card games.

Not necessarily unsuccessful. More like too expensive for the product range. 60.00-80.00 a book is a serious chunk of coin to drop on a book. even a regular novel doesn't nearly cost that amount. THEN you add in GW's stellar business practice of gutting the golden goose, it is little wonder that FFG drops it like a bad habit. FFG has plenty on their plate without the issues that drama queens provide, let alone one as self important as GW. As to the DUST debacle, that is a thread unto itself, and there were close to a 20 pages of discussion on Palente's bullgak, and shoddy mismanagement of the license. I suspect that it comes down to the same sort of issue as was the changing of the guard over at GW.

Last season or two, it was about money grab. NOW it is about good will. All I see right now is to grab up the RPG material while yopu can grab it, and lets have us a conversation on second hand sales in swapshop, or in general forum.

We can take the dead game and make it our own within the player community. Still intrigued on a Gorkamorka supplement, or expansion on the IG that I was waiting on.

In the interest of the game itself, I have a gakload of content on hand, say the word and we can set up a community requisition file, somewhere...

Yes, go and buy all the FFG 40K RPG books now. Especially The Lathe Worlds. Buy that one twice.

squall018 wrote:This is unfortunate. I was just getting into the Deathwatch RPG. Always loved the 40k setting and FFGs books were top notch.

There are plenty of used copies out there (and I'd wager a good number of new ones still in distribution). More than enough material to play for a long, long time

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?bi=0&bx=off&ds=30&pn=fantasy+flight&recentlyadded=all&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=deathwatch

 frozenwastes wrote:

squall018 wrote:This is unfortunate. I was just getting into the Deathwatch RPG. Always loved the 40k setting and FFGs books were top notch.

There are plenty of used copies out there (and I'd wager a good number of new ones still in distribution). More than enough material to play for a long, long time

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?bi=0&bx=off&ds=30&pn=fantasy+flight&recentlyadded=all&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=deathwatch

Never heard of this site but it looks great. Thanks for that!

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
That's making the assumption that a mass battle game was in the same scale.

Given the nature of some of the units (AT-ATs especially) and the scope of the battles we see when they happen, I've long been an advocate of a 10mm or smaller scale SW game.

Star Wars (original trilogy) doesn't have very many recognizable vehicles at that scale. Once you've exhausted the AT-ATs, AT-STs, and snowspeeders, what are you left with? Hoth was the only mass land battle in the original trilogy (Ewoks were closer to skirmish). Clone Wars has a bunch of vehicles that it could work with, but I doubt many would be interested in a Clone Wars mass battle game. And that would be fine for pre-painted models like X-Wing/Armada, but I don't think AT-ATs would entice anyone to take the plunge into painting. If the hobby element of customization and painting were part of their purview, then I don't think a 10mm SW land battle game would work for them, or anyone else.

Well, the existence of 10mm or other smaller scale games which people spend hobby time on pretty much counters that last point.

While there are relatively few pitched ground battles in the SW canon, the ones that exist pretty firmly establish that they tend to be pretty significant affairs, the trailers for Rogue One seem to be going that way too, utilising infantry, artillery, light and heavy armour, as well as air support. There already has been a 28mm scale game, and there's already IA for skirmish level stuff.

There's a gap in the market for a larger scope SW miniatures game, and we certainly don't want something that shoehorns stuff in, whether it's appropriate or not, a la 40K, so, should it ever get made, we'd have Armada->X Wing->Hitherto Nonexistent Battle Game->Imperial Assault->RPGs.

 squall018 wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

squall018 wrote:This is unfortunate. I was just getting into the Deathwatch RPG. Always loved the 40k setting and FFGs books were top notch.

There are plenty of used copies out there (and I'd wager a good number of new ones still in distribution). More than enough material to play for a long, long time

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?bi=0&bx=off&ds=30&pn=fantasy+flight&recentlyadded=all&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=deathwatch

Never heard of this site but it looks great. Thanks for that!

It's like a market place for used book stores. I've gotten so many out of print game books there for really cheap.

OMG the board games!

@#$%, gotta order Forbidden Stars now!

I'm still missing a chunk of books fro Black Crusade and Only War, just hope they're still available when I start earning once more

 Meade wrote:
It just goes to show you not to invest in licensed stuff, aside from Star Wars which seems to have a great combo of being a cheap license/lucrative license. I might as well stick to Cthulhu games... hey theres one IP that's free for everyone to use....

Hate to break it to you, but FFG's dropping their Call of Cthulhu LCG and stopped expanding Arkham Horror.

Nah, kidding. The Arkham Horror Card Game is being *very* well-received by BGG, as is Mansions of Madness 2nd edition. FFG only has so many resources, so my guess is, with Star Wars making more money, and Call of Cthulhu costing none, GW was in the middle. Toss out the GW games, make room for Terrinoth. If Runewars the Miniature game fails, FFG can return to making more money on Star Wars and Cthulhu! Hopefully, at least GW has a better idea if a GW RPG and boardgames will sell.

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Looks like everything's gone from DriveThruRpg.

Again, not really a sign that they've actually lost the license. If the license has expired and they're contracting a new one, they can't actually sell their products until the new license is signed.

I don't have a dog in this hunt at all, just playing devils advocate. Licenses take time to go through, and with FFG doing things like moving into their own miniatures game, GW might be making changes to the license as to what they can and can't do regarding that change of direction.

Of course, they might also have lost the license and just unceremoniously dropped everything without word from any part involved, but that's a pretty unprofessional thing to do.

Generally though wouldn't you go for new license BEFORE old one expires to ensure no interruption? So even at best case FFG and GW have run afoul in negotiations and it's taking way longer than anticipiated with unknown results still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Caliginous wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I can't wait to see what new company gets the rpg line.

None. No company's going to pick it up, because no company other than a huge player like FFG could afford the license, and RPGs are deader than a deady dead thing that's dead. Even the best-selling RPGs today are shipping numbers that you would not believe - in a bad way. The pen and paper RPG industry today is a niche industry in a niche market appealing to niche gamers. It's *dead*. Bereft of life, it's ceased to be. Kickstarter is about the only place left for anything non-Pathfinder. Yes we loved our FFG warhammer books. They were top notch in design and production values, I loved them, you loved them, but they sold terribly. The choice for FFG between a Star Wars license and a 40K license is no choice at all...

Well Mongoose seems to be doing okay in RPG part of the world. Maybe not GW/D&D good but solid profit at least.

 BrookM wrote:
A large chunk of the FFG 40k RPG staff were either former GW staff / writers or the odd ascended fanboy.

Not really true. Most of the people I worked with were folks who had been freelance writers for years on a number of products, but y'know, nice jab at the writers. Real classy.

What the flying feth man? No offence was meant.

tneva82 wrote:

Well Mongoose seems to be doing okay in RPG part of the world. Maybe not GW/D&D good but solid profit at least.

I was going to say - no Kickstarter needed for this one:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpgs/traveller-1/traveller-core-rulebook.html

Monte Cook Games is doing great too, but I don't know if they are the right folks to do a 40k rpg line since they make games that are the complete anti-thesis of 40k and complexity. I don't think they would nail the grim dark right, but the mechanics would likely be very simple.

My favorite rpg's of all time in order Numenera, Star Wars Saga, Deathwatch, Dungeon's and Dragons (5th), and Old World of Darkness.

Well all we can do is hope the right people get it and do something new with it. Also table top gaming including tabletop rpg's is actually in a bit of a renaissance. It isn't big bucks, but it is more viable to launch an rpg today than it has been at any point barring the golden ages.

Edit
I wonder if the people doing the Witcher tabletop rpg would be the right folks. Depending on how good they nail the Witcher's gritty setting it would seem like a natural fit. Apparently they are R. Talsorian Games. Interesting they did Cyperbunk and Mekton the latter of which is a decent rpg. I hear good things about cyberpunk and the Witcher video game devs are adapting it into a video game.

Edit2.
I have complete collections of DW, only war, DH 2.0, and Black Crusade. I have a core from the original developers of DH1 and I also have a few Rogue Trader books. My DW books look like they belong in the setting alright since they've seen such heavy use and many a floor drop due to clumsy players (grr). I had to buy a second core because of this and not let them touch it.

MongooseMatt wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Well Mongoose seems to be doing okay in RPG part of the world. Maybe not GW/D&D good but solid profit at least.

I was going to say - no Kickstarter needed for this one:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpgs/traveller-1/traveller-core-rulebook.html

And power to you, Matt. While I'm full of admiration for people keeping the pen and paper dream alive, you'd have to agree the numbers that some RPG books shift, even the "big" titles, is pretty terrifying.

I don't see why they have to make that much money. Maybe some people work and do things for a living because they like it.

Also for the past few years rpg's have been on the rise. http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/32102/hobby-games-market-climbs-880-million

Sure they won't ever be a mega hit with the world, but not everything needs to be. So long as its growth, makes money, and entertains the majority of its core audience who keep buying there will always be a place for rpg's. My shelves are full of books more than any 40k figures. Many of these are numerous rpg books from soft cover to hard cover and I've gm'ed most of them once or twice. zI have entire rpg line collections from games I haven't even mentioned. I don't think rpg's are in any danger.

Maybe they've just never published them in PDF format so I could be wrong here, but I just checked drive through RPG and none of their STAR WARS RPG products where on there as well, also FFG maintains a website for their 40K games that sells ahrd copys of the books, it's possiable their lisence just allows them to sell their remaining stock, but could FFG just have changed their policy on making and selling PDFs for their major lisenced products?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
I don't see why they have to make that much money. Maybe some people work and do things for a living because they like it.

Also for the past few years rpg's have been on the rise. http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/32102/hobby-games-market-climbs-880-million

Sure they won't ever be a mega hit with the world, but not everything needs to be. So long as its growth, makes money, and entertains the majority of its core audience who keep buying there will always be a place for rpg's. My shelves are full of books more than any 40k figures. Many of these are numerous rpg books from soft cover to hard cover and I've gm'ed most of them once or twice. zI have entire rpg line collections from games I haven't even mentioned. I don't think rpg's are in any danger.

they don't have to make much money, but when you get outside investors involved whose knowledge of gaming begins and ends with how much money MTG makes it can be a problem.

That's a big blow to ffg losing this license. So much for 40k conquest and warhammer invasion (invasion was and is a great game).

That's ok I prefer playing 40k or aos to rpgs, card games, etc.

BrianDavion wrote:
Maybe they've just never published them in PDF format so I could be wrong here, but I just checked drive through RPG and none of their STAR WARS RPG products where on there as well, also FFG maintains a website for their 40K games that sells ahrd copys of the books, it's possiable their lisence just allows them to sell their remaining stock, but could FFG just have changed their policy on making and selling PDFs for their major lisenced products?

That's a Star Wars licensing thing. They don't have the license for electronic books. That's why their beta games were hard copies, rather than PDFs. It's been like that since the start.

Latest issue of Tabletop Gamer magazine has an interview with the founder/owner of FFG.

Not one mention of 40k, WFRP or indeed Games Workshop.


Lots of pics of the Star Wars stuff etc etc , but again not a single GW related product is shown or mentioned.

MongooseMatt wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Well Mongoose seems to be doing okay in RPG part of the world. Maybe not GW/D&D good but solid profit at least.

I was going to say - no Kickstarter needed for this one:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpgs/traveller-1/traveller-core-rulebook.html

Hi Matt Looking forward to getting into the new Traveller when hobby budget increases after next year's crazy trip Fan of your original traveller series and have had many many hours spent exploring the galaxy and doing good and bad things there.

str00dles1 wrote:
Fits to what ive heard.

Apparently as the story goes, because FFG made Runewars, that broke the contract they had with GW. GW saying they cant make a table top miniatures game. FFG did, so GW pulled license.

Sucks because I really liked Warhammer quest Card game and this really nails the coffin down for Disk Wars.

This is exactly what I've heard from a solid source as well. There was also an aborted tabletop star wars game pre x-wing that was more miniature focused which didnt get released due to that restriction, so I wonder if we'll see that moving forwards too.

I think people are forgetting one simple thing, the rebirth of Specialist Games by GW. The FFG licensing contracts probably had a use by date otherwise they reverted to GW / SG. With Blood Bowl coming soon and the rumored Necromunda / BFG release schedule by the new SG it was inevitable that the licenses would be cancelled

 Gamgee wrote:
I don't see why they have to make that much money. Maybe some people work and do things for a living because they like it.

Also for the past few years rpg's have been on the rise. http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/32102/hobby-games-market-climbs-880-million

Interesting article, thanks for sharing - but it still shows RPGs are a niche within a niche. It's a business, but not a great one. I mean $25 million? Gygax would put that much worth of coke up his nose each week in the 80s.

 Rolsheen wrote:
I think people are forgetting one simple thing, the rebirth of Specialist Games by GW. The FFG licensing contracts probably had a use by date otherwise they reverted to GW / SG. With Blood Bowl coming soon and the rumored Necromunda / BFG release schedule by the new SG it was inevitable that the licenses would be cancelled

Re-making the game is one thing, making a good well-supported ruleset is another. As in FFG's Xwing v. Star Wars attack wing and Dungeons and Dragons attack wing, Those games can ride only so far on the back of nostalgic grognards and fanboys!

So what would be some of the good GW games (non-RPG) that FFG made that would behoove a purchase before they become unavailable?

Chaos in the Old World is fantastic.

In some ways it's similar to Blood Rage (another Eric Lang game), and I think Blood Rage is more polished and probably a better game overall. But there are big differences between the two, as well. I think if I could only keep twenty boardgames, I would still want to own both of them, even if I wasn't a big Warhammer fan. For anyone who likes the Old World setting, though, and particularly the four Demonic Powers, CitOW is a must-have.

Herzlos wrote:
I'm pretty sure that even if the license expires, they can still sell stuff they've already produced.

Licences don't work that way.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
OMG the board games!

@#$%, gotta order Forbidden Stars now!

Yup, got that a few weeks ago (didn't even know of this) but I just grabbed Relic: Halls of Terra.