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There's a breed of retailer/hoarder out there who'll gouge on anything that even has a whiff of being OOP.

I've seen people asking 25% over RRP (perhaps more, don't really remember) for product in the last iteration of packaging (but zero other changes.)

Not unique to wargaming, but certainly prevalent.

 Azreal13 wrote:
People are arguing X Wing isn't cheaper to play than 40K, we're not dealing with much logic here..

We're arguing that X-Wing isn't cheaper to get into, not that it is cheaper in the long run. If you give a gamer a space marine, then he's going to want a rulebook. Then a codex. Then paints. Then more space marines. Then a table. Maybe some friends/prostitutes to play with. And so on.

But a LOT of that can be reused between multiple different games (even the prostitutes, which have all sorts of games). Once you've got the plastic clippers and are comfortable clipping and gluing together miniatures, you can then work on Kings of War figures at no additional cost. My paint set covers Age of Sigmar, Infinity, and Warmachine. The hobby is somewhat universal, and getting some experience with it sort of unlocks an entire world of new gaming experiences that you would otherwise avoid, ignore, or in many cases, find overwhelming.

I don't play 40k, but I think the miniature game hobby benefits more from new players joining 40k than X-Wing. Pretty much the majority of miniature gamers, across every miniature game that's halfway popular, originally came from 40k (not me, though). Everyone in my Warmachine group was a lapsed 40k player. A new 40k player is a new miniature gamer. X-Wing doesn't cross over like that. X-Wing players generally just stick to X-Wing, or else it leads them to more FFG board games, but they don't tend to then move over to Warmachine, Infinity, Kings of War, Frostgrave, and so on.

So from a purely selfish standpoint, I'd rather see new gamers adopt real miniature games over X-Wing, regardless of what the perceived value of the starter set may be for a disinterest parent.

Literally none of that has any bearing on the fact that X Wing is cheaper to start. Not even the prostitiutes.

Just a friendly reminder that Rule Number Two is Stay On Topic. Thanks!

FFG deserves an award for their ability to get so many new ga,ers onboard, it's a shame GW has decided to part ways instead of harness that. The core rules of the recent GW "boardgames" don't hold a candle to most of FFG's offerings, and lack even FFG's sometimes horrible and shortsighted support.

Maybe someday GW will produce another great game like (basically any of) what became the "Specialist Games" catalog, and even support it accordingly. They have a long way to go to approach the glory days of Mordheim, Necromunda, BFG, and even Gorkamorka, which as one of the lesser Specialist Games still eclipses Calth, or Kill Team, for longevity and expansion.

Edited by Manchu

Again

 Manchu wrote:
Just a friendly reminder that Rule Number Two is Stay On Topic. Thanks!

 EnTyme wrote:
So a little more on-topic, I just checked the pricing of the Deathwatch RPG books on Amazon. The ones that are out of stock on FFG's site are priced between $130 and $5,000 ?!?

That happens sometimes on Amazon and Ebay. Some sellers often use automated systems that regularly check the prices other sellers are asking for, and adjust accordingly. So, once one seller raises their price, the bots raise their prices, half of the bots see the other half raised prices, so raise them again, and repeat.

 Sqorgar wrote:
I don't play 40k, but I think the miniature game hobby benefits more from new players joining 40k than X-Wing. Pretty much the majority of miniature gamers, across every miniature game that's halfway popular, originally came from 40k (not me, though). Everyone in my Warmachine group was a lapsed 40k player. A new 40k player is a new miniature gamer. X-Wing doesn't cross over like that. X-Wing players generally just stick to X-Wing, or else it leads them to more FFG board games, but they don't tend to then move over to Warmachine, Infinity, Kings of War, Frostgrave, and so on.

So from a purely selfish standpoint, I'd rather see new gamers adopt real miniature games over X-Wing, regardless of what the perceived value of the starter set may be for a disinterest parent.

That's a recent development because people ended up with 40k (the industry dominant game) after being introduced through boardgames (Hero Quest, Space Crusade/StarQuest, later Battle Masters here in Germany) in the late 80s to early 90s. Then in the mid 90s Magic led to even more people finding game stores and getting sucked into miniature gaming. Without these fake miniature games many people wouldn't have found the hobby at all (and would be building/paining Tamiya and Revell kits happily). You are seeing the backside of an elephant and can't imagine it having a trunk or tusks.

The idea that people have to start with real miniature games or they won't ever get into them is just plainly wrong. Milton Bradley made TV ads for these games and sold them in toys stores where real miniature games had no access due to the slightly different sales model. The Dawn of War games apparently also got quite a few people interested in miniature games. It seems to me that the biggest recruiting methods are either other media/games that link back to the hobby or friends/word-of-mouth. GW themselves have been doing not much to actively recruit people (besides their stores which were more useful when the company was growing). They should be lucky that FFG was giving them money and new gamers.

The thread topic might be technically correct in that FFG is losing the license but overall this looks to me like GW is losing access to an expanding market and getting the worse deal out of this. They probably want to use their own boardgames for that (and get them in regular toy stores). That loss probably won't be as bad as the LotR bubble when the ads and outreach from other companies disappeared and GW lost that marketing but many people will still find ways into the complete hobby (building/painting/gaming) just without touching GW products at all. Instead of boardgames -> GW -> other miniature games they can just go boardgames -> other miniature games. GW is not essential to this equation, they were just a big part because they dominated this hobby for some time (one/two decades?) and now their position is slowly eroding.

It might be that GW got scared/offended or whatever and change the parameters for an extension of the licensing deal but maybe FFG just wanted to streamline their own product portfolio in anticipation of their own real miniature war-game and asked for a much better deal than what GW was comfortable with to make them rescind the license. After FFG got bought they are now (if I remember correctly) in a better financial shape than GW as their products are more mainstream friendly. Of course a mix of both sides being dissatisfied could have led to both of them saying "Thank you but we'll probably not need this licensing deal anymore" when it came to licensing talks.

I think the idea that GW may want to go at the customer directly is a plausible one.

Thing is, even with access to Chinese production facilities, it took FFG months to get ahead of production. I'm sure X Wing surpassed even the most optimistic projections, but even up to now, things regularly sell out and there is a page on FFG's site that allows you to track where things are in production.

It doesn't affect me so much, as a long term player since around wave 2, but I'm sure it impacts new players wanting to buy a Millenium Falcon, or whatever is currently OOS.

So, the point I'm working towards is, if GW does want to tilt at that market, can they possibly support it if it takes off, just from Nottingham?

Imagine Calth being sold through Walmart and catching a wave, they could sell a normal year's production in a matter of weeks, days even.

So, if GW have walked away from this, they may well have walked away from a partner that had the reach and infrastructure that could have got them into big box retailers, which they may simply not have in isolation.

I don't really see any signs from GW that their current CEO wants their stuff in sales channels outside their control any more than Kirby did. I think they're trying to segregate the market so they can have a faux-monopoly through customer ignorance. Where people encounter their product primarily in a way where they don't compare it to any others. There are even GW customers who prefer it that way as shown in this thread.

I think going into big box retailers and getting main stream sales for their games is just not something they want to do unless they can also dictate to these much larger business how their product is to be marketed, priced and sold (and they can't dictate anything to places like Walmart, Target, MetroAG, Carrefour, Sainsbury/Argos, or Amazon).

I don't think GW wants any of their products in any sales channel they can't directly control. While Battle for Vedros uses independent sales people to sell stores on the idea of carrying it, the stores still had to make a trade account and agree to GW's terms like no online sales, discounting, etc.,. They know from the LOTR boom that mass sales can indeed work for them, but nearly sinking the company when the movies ended probably scarred GW's upper management in a way that won't heal until they've all retired and been replaced. Even then institutional inertia might make GW wary of mass sales for quite some time.


`

 gorgon wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
That would be a case of picking at the details without fundamentally altering the argument.

A weakened argument is an altered argument.

Besides, are we forgetting that the most common advice you see for X-Wing beginners is to buy TWO starters so that you can enough ships for a proper game? With Kill Team you actually HAVE enough models for a proper game right in the box.

We can do this ALL DAY, Star Wars/FFG white knights.

LOL this post is so funny. When the debates last year was going on you couldn't even use this excuse. Why does it looks like you are thumping your chest declaring this? LOL. You can only use that excuse now, but not 9 months ago. But you are also forgetting Star Wars can be played out of the box as soon as you get home. No modelling, no painting. You can play faster and come one let's be honest, who in 40K is really playing Kill Teams? The Age of Sigmar threads are more hotter than Kill Teams. So playing Kill Teams is not a good excuse just like you have to buy more in X-wing to be basically playing 100 points. Still cheaper to get a 100 point in x-wing than it is to get 750 or 1000 points in 40K.

Others can keep going all day as well. But now we are off topic.a Want to keep going all day, make a new thread. I am sure we would all love a great debate.

No evidence other than Battle for Vedros, the new 40K Legends collectible book series or White Dwarf being put back into traditional newsagents?

They're small steps (and it looks like Vedros has been a bit of a wobble) but I'd say there's certainly indication that they've acknowledged that a wider market engagement is a solution to their lack of growth.

What the scale of this ambition is would only be pure speculation.

Davor wrote:
Still cheaper to get a 100 point in x-wing than it is to get 750 or 1000 points in 40K.

Dark Vengeance has two armies - I'm getting conflicting reports (possibly because DV bridges 6th and 7th editions?), but it looks like 600 pt for CSM and 700 for Dark Angels. If you split a box bought off Amazon, you are looking at around $45 a person. It's a decent buy in to get a moderate sized game cheaply, though the second you want to expand, having to add a codex and $30 units, the price and difficulty skyrocket. I think the official DV were something like $200 each.

Others can keep going all day as well. But now we are off topic.a Want to keep going all day, make a new thread. I am sure we would all love a great debate.

I must be the only person who thinks that this discussion actually IS on topic. FFG and GW have gone ways, seemingly because X-Wing is a direct competitor to 40k. Comparing the two is really the only way to understand this divide, as well as what the split may mean to the hobby as a whole. Some people think that leaving FFG, GW has lost an important entry point to their universes and games - the step between Monopoly and 40k. While FFG lost a profitable IP, it was increasingly a smaller part of its profits, and now that GW is gone, FFG is seeking to create a full fledged miniatures game on their own, inspired more by X-Wing than 40k or WHFB (you even need to buy two core sets to have a full game).

FFG entering miniatures is a pretty big deal, as is GW going more after the board game market. In a way, they are competitors, but in another way, they are each other's biggest inspiration. FFG wants to be GW and GW wants to be FFG. And the biggest hurdles ahead of them is that GW needs to target newer gamers, or gamers with a smaller budget, or gamers which don't like the hobby aspect - all areas that FFG excels, and FFG needs to build up hobbyist support for their unassembled, unpainted RuneWars game, and target the hardcore miniature game community to sell the game to new players - all areas that GW excels.

What this split means, both to GW/FFG and to the community as a whole, is personified by the difference between X-Wing and 40k. That's like, a metaphor for the whole thing, man.

An Aeronatica Imperialis game, manufactured by FFG and using X-Wing mechanics would have been extremely tight.

To be clear, the kid was not into 40k. He was giving the entire shelf area of 40k the hairy eyeball and thinking about it.

But, when his mom and I looked at the core X-Wing game and I told her it have everything you need to play, dice, rules, etc. She was on board.

It was also difficult trying to explain to the middle aged woman that just buying a package of Space Marines was not enough for a game. The entire Codex and Rulebook being separate entities was baffling to her.

 Sqorgar wrote:
FFG and GW have gone ways, seemingly because X-Wing is a direct competitor to 40k.

Quite the assumption.

GW and FFG were pleased to be partners for the first 3+ years of X-Wing's existence. In those 3+ years, X-Wing clearly did not violate the terms of GW's license, trigger GW to withdraw the license, or prevent FFG from developing additional GW product lines.

I think the (much) better assumption is, each of Asmodee/FFG and GW want to pursue the other's usual bailiwicks.

In any case, this is not the place to debate the cost/value of starting X-Wing as opposed to 40k. Feel free to start a thread on that elsewhere.

Allegedly from a reliable source there are grievances on both sides. GW insider says that SW armada was originally going to be a battlefleet gothic game under FFG. However FFG also wanted to do a SW Armada game since they had the rights. They might have used the same base system. GW didn't want them to compete so they had a clause that said they could not make a SW Armada game while they did battlefleet. So negotiations broke down and they made armada. We don't know all the details but allegedly both parties are happy its over at any rate since they both see error in the others actions.

FFG selling a prepainted BFG line, eh? Sounds like a fantasy to me.

 Manchu wrote:
GW and FFG were pleased to be partners for the first 3+ years of X-Wing's existence. In those 3+ years, X-Wing clearly did not violate the terms of GW's license, trigger GW to withdraw the license, or prevent FFG from developing additional GW product lines.

I am very skeptical of this. Aside from the various rumors/speculation about GW being unhappy with FFG's move to compete more directly with GW dropping a major license doesn't happen out of nowhere. There was presumably some degree of disagreement before this point, and when the negotiations for extending the license came up they weren't able to reach an agreement. The fact that GW didn't revoke the license before now probably has more to do with FFG having signed a deal giving it to them for a specific amount of time than GW being happy with FFG's products taking over large parts of "their" market.

 Manchu wrote:
Quite the assumption.

A tremendous assumption really, with no basis in fact. Actually, if you look at it logically... oh wait...

 Manchu wrote:
GW and FFG were pleased to be partners for the first 3+ years of X-Wing's existence. In those 3+ years, X-Wing clearly did not violate the terms of GW's license, trigger GW to withdraw the license, or prevent FFG from developing additional GW product lines.

... seems you already did, and yet people persist in thinking that GW broke it off because of something FFG did.

Also it's weird to think the fancy 40k rpg collectors editions FFG made are now even more valuable. I don't know if it was here or not but I seen someone said they had the original dark heresy collectors edition from when it wasn't ffg. Making it one of only 200 copies. This just makes me feel even more proud to have bought my DW one when I did. FFG's collectors editions put GW's "collectors" editions to shame. Even to this day people ask about that book and think it looks cool as hell.

Edited by Manchu

I'm only disappointed that deathwatch didn't get an update

 Formosa wrote:
I'm only disappointed that deathwatch didn't get an update

That's what disappointed me the most. I was a little worried that they were coming out with so may same but not RPGs but figured deathwatch would be the last and whatever came next would be the supplements but then three more (including DH2) came out. I think it ended up fragmenting the playerbase too much. I would have preferred if they had made a Black Crusade style game with marines and humans all together for the imperium instead of rinse, lather, tweaking a new core book and starting from scratch everytime. The balance in BC doesn't feel perfect but it's at least workable (unlike plopping a DW character into a DH game).

I see a friendly warning didn't work so FINAL WARNING - anyone who persists in discussing the relative costs and merits of X-Wing and 40k will have their account suspended for at least two days.

 Manchu wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
FFG and GW have gone ways, seemingly because X-Wing is a direct competitor to 40k.

Quite the assumption.

GW and FFG were pleased to be partners for the first 3+ years of X-Wing's existence. In those 3+ years, X-Wing clearly did not violate the terms of GW's license, trigger GW to withdraw the license, or prevent FFG from developing additional GW product lines.

License deals are made for multiple years at a time - I think FFG recently made an announcement that they renewed their Star Wars license for another 5 years. X-Wing may not have been enough to void the contract directly, but its increasing popularity over those years (stealing customers away from 40k) had to have rubbed GW the wrong way something fierce. The release of Armada (a second popular miniatures game) couldn't have helped. There's also evidence that FFG had expected the license to continue, such as WH40k Conquest being rushed to finish its cycle early, FFG announcing Conquest tournament kits after the license expires in Feb, and cancelling a Forbidden Stars expansion and firing the designer during the design phase.

I don't think FFG was working on BFG though. GW expressly forbid FFG from creating miniatures that competed with their products (it's why Relic included character busts), and even if GW never had any intention of making BFG again, there's no way GW would give a full miniatures line to FFG. Maybe FFG pitched it to GW, but I don't believe that GW would've given them the go ahead. Not on a miniatures game.

I think the (much) better assumption is, each of Asmodee/FFG and GW want to pursue the other's usual bailiwicks.

While I believe the decision was ultimately mutual, I think GW got the ball rolling. It can't be trivial for FFG to give up a major portion of its catalog and end an ongoing, popular LCG while some factions are still missing elements. I'm sure Asmodee and the Star Wars license gave FFG the backing to be able to comfortably choose highway from "my way or the highway". But the first person who said, "you know what? This isn't working for me anymore. Maybe we should see other people" had to have been GW.

A license, like any other contract, can be breached. GW and FFG are sophisticated enough to have foreseen the potential for overlapping growth when the license was first negotiated so that they could have contracted around such issues. Nothing that FFG did with regard to the X-Wing line appears to have triggered GW to sue FFG for breach of contract.

It really doesn't make any sense for GW and FFG to have fallen out over X-Wing. This perception is probably a mirage generated by the extremely flawed, overly-generalized, and entirely anecdotal ICv2 reports, which bizarrely lump X-Wing and 40k into the same sales category - probably because X-Wing doesn't really fit anywhere else.

I agree that GW asking FFG to make a miniaures game also makes zero sense.

As to who broke up with whom ... I am not so sure that it was GW. To say that Asmodee is growing faster than GW is a massive understatement. FFG wants to make traditional miniatures wargames (hence why they are doing so with RuneWars). I could imagine the GW license specifically precludes this. It is also easy to imagine that GW would not budge on this at the negotiating table. But GW would almost certainly be happy to sit back and collect the licensing fees otherwise.

 Manchu wrote:

It really doesn't make any sense for GW and FFG to have fallen out over X-Wing.

It does make sense though. X wing is probably the most widely seen miniatures game around at the moment, its not often you see a wargame in a supermarket after all, and it is evidently selling extremely well.

It is a wargame and it is clearly a direct competitor to 40K. GW is not a fan of competition, when it acknowledges that such a thing is even possible of course, so it is entirely believable that GW wants to restrict FFG as much as possible.

Given the breadth of FFG's catalogue I can't see them voluntarily giving up on popular and critically successful board games unless they had too.

 Manchu wrote:
entirely anecdotal ICv2 reports, which bizarrely lump X-Wing and 40k into the same sales category - probably because X-Wing doesn't really fit anywhere else.

Why wouldn't they be in the same category? The only mechanical difference between the 2 is the X-Wing comes pre-painted.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

It really doesn't make any sense for GW and FFG to have fallen out over X-Wing.

It does make sense though. X wing is probably the most widely seen miniatures game around at the moment, its not often you see a wargame in a supermarket after all, and it is evidently selling extremely well.

It is a wargame and it is clearly a direct competitor to 40K. GW is not a fan of competition, when it acknowledges that such a thing is even possible of course, so it is entirely believable that GW wants to restrict FFG as much as possible.

Given the breadth of FFG's catalogue I can't see them voluntarily giving up on popular and critically successful board games unless they had too.

Let me get this straight. GW is leaving partnership with FFG because FFG is taking business away from GW because GW can't run a business?

FFG never took any money away from GW. It is GW who is turning people away who are finding other alternatives. For me at least, when I hear or see "Star Wars" or "Star Trek" game, I think of crap. Crappy video games, crappy board games, crappy games in general MOST of the time. Only reason I started with X-wing is because after being SOUR with GW BUSINESS PRACTICES I started looking for else where, and was shocked to read that there is a very good "Star Wars" game and a good "Star Trek" game. So I started collecting them. Then I found out about Warmahordes.

While I don't play them no more, but at the time, all that money would have went to GW but GW basically told me "we don't want your money" so my money went else where.

I am sure it's not FFG taking money away from GW it's GW making people not to want to buy their product and people want to buy so start looking else where. So for GW to say FFG "you are taking money away from us and we don't want to partner with you no more" is just mind boggling. If GW did what a business should have done, and give people what they want instead of their own agenda with shareholders money this would have never been an issue then.

Thing is, GW is now doing "smoke and mirrors" instead of actually trying to run a business in my eyes. So now they see a company who does actually better work on GW IP, than what GW can do, and that is why I think GW doesn't want to partner with FFG anymore. Pretty embarrassing when another company does a better job than you on your own IP. And that is why I think the partnership has ended and it is very scary now to see we will not get the same great quality in gaming that FFG gave us with GW IP.

I am not saying I am correct, I can be very well wrong, but right now, that is how I see it.

X-Wing may technically be a miniatures game (depending on who you ask) but lumping it in with 40k is silly. X-Wing is competition for 40k in the same way that X-Wing is competition for Settlers of Catan - namely, in the high-level race to capture finite table top gaming dollars. It's true that $100 spent on X-Wing is $100 not spent on 40k (and is $100 not spent on Mayland board games). It's not necessarily true that every $100 spent on X-Wing translates into GW losing $100 of sales. It's pretty debatable whether RuneWars is really even competing with GW.

 Manchu wrote:
X-Wing may technically be a miniatures game (depending on who you ask) but lumping it in with 40k is silly

Why?