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 frozenwastes wrote:
Did GW ever do anything more with their dueling flyers game that seems to try to be a 40k take on X-Wing?



GW vs Toys stuff: As Walmart toys are to GW kits, GW kits are to Bandai kits.

:( They've released stats for all the GW flyers, including the newest DW flyer.

Sadly, the game is a poor, poor imitation of X-Wing (and it is clear that it is strongly influenced by, and trying to reproduce the dynamics of X-Wing/Wings of War/Attack Wing). It can be fun in it's own right if you want something to do with the 28mm models, but like all of GW's games so far, it just falls far enough short of the mark that it's clear its about the cool models, not the actual game. And of course, for what it attempts to do, it's waaaay overpriced. The game needs some serious work to bring it up to something worth playing long-term, and it will not have a long life. But I don't think it was ever intended to.

I don't think it's a take on x-wing, At least I hope not, cause if GW tought they would dent in xwing market with such a halfhearted effort, they are truly delusional.

As for the Bandai-GW comparaison, they are not very comparable. Bandai kits are much more like action figure than miniature. It's like comparing a ferrari to a 18-wheel truck. Yes they both have similarities, but they are very different product that cater to different persons.

 streetsamurai wrote:
I don't think it's a take on x-wing, At least I hope not, cause if GW tought they would dent in xwing market with such a halfhearted effort, they are truly delusional.

Well, with FFG no longer having a license, unless someone else gets one, we should expect more of this approach from GW's board games going forward. It's sort of their modus operandi at this point.

As for the Bandai-GW comparaison, they are not very comparable. Bandai kits are much more like action figure than miniature. It's like comparing a ferrari to a 18-wheel truck. Yes they both have similarities, but they are very different product that cater to different persons.

Just like the toys and GW.

As Walmart toys are to GW kits, GW kits are to Bandai kits.

See what's going on there?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

Sadly, the game is a poor, poor imitation of X-Wing (and it is clear that it is strongly influenced by, and trying to reproduce the dynamics of X-Wing/Wings of War/Attack Wing). It can be fun in it's own right if you want something to do with the 28mm models, but like all of GW's games so far, it just falls far enough short of the mark that it's clear its about the cool models, not the actual game. And of course, for what it attempts to do, it's waaaay overpriced. The game needs some serious work to bring it up to something worth playing long-term, and it will not have a long life. But I don't think it was ever intended to.

It's possible that it and things like Kill Team are actually just part of the unbound sales plan. Offer a discount to get people to buy stuff from more than one faction so they get used to buying stuff from across the range. That way regardless of the release, it can be sold to everyone who walks into the store.

I'm sure GW is disappointed that universal love for unbound or the default AoS approach didn't break out upon release.

Or if that's over stating things, then perhaps it's just the normal GW thing where they use the idea of a game to sell models, but put as little effort into the actual game as possible as they don't actually care if people play it or not.

The success of games like Conquest shows that there is demand for FFG's 40k stuff or stuff of that quality. Imagine if before X-Wing came out, GW and FFG would have made a Wings of War type variation on Aeronatica Imperialis (or whatever it was called). With the same quality of plastic prepaints and game play.

 doctortom wrote:
How is Forbidden Stars as a game? I'm wondering if I should pick it up while it might be available.

Look it up at BGG. From what I read about it, it's great game! BEst at 2-3 players because of the down time, and it's kinda lenghty at least 2-3h. But it has very positive reviews, even from people that don't care about 40k at all. I would pick it up, but 90e price, and not enough time to play games that last around 3h + maybe a bit complicated for my gf is putting me off.

They printed extra rules in the new WD, if I remember correctly.
I doubt they really thought it was an actual competitor, that would be cute

It's more of a "lets buy planes for cheap with my friend Timmy" kind of deal.

@Davor
If you got my point as: "buy everything to your little one, or you are a a cheap arse" , you got it wrong.
What I meant was: it doesn't seem right to choose the cheapest out of all alternatives, that can't substitute each other; without even knowing the shtick.

You painted a picture of a parent, who only sees the world of hobbies as grey matter with different price tags on them. And parenting of that particular "buyer" is what I didn't see to be good. My snarky remark was pointed at that.
For example: a kid likes to draw, but pencils and acrylics are too darn expensive. A kid also wanted a video game. It's cheaper. In your example, a parent will Pick the latter every time. After all, then a kid will need canvases, drawing lessons, more supplies. That's where I disagree- while the first one demands more money, it's better not to buy anything next month, but choose what is dearer to the kid.



You used an example with MTG, out of which I concluded, that a kid was already into it. I can only work with whatever you post to make a conclusion. so yeah, you should go through all the details, so people like me understand the whole described situation and the point you are trying to make.

Sorry, if I have offended you(certainly have), I should have made an explanation with details myself as well, really.


@agnosto

I agree with "you're funny", and everything you said about parenting.

The lady was not the target of my "parenting" rant, I should've been more specific, and have a more weighted argument with an actual explanation of what I mean (like the one i did in this message before)

And I did weigh the witch with the duck- they have the same mass. (I checked out other posts by the protagonist, that started it all, they are very bias)


Back on topic:
All in all I think, that GW losses more out of this break up- they won't do RPGs themselves, all they can do is aurentica imperialis to play on the same field as FFG,which will never be more popular than x-wing. Which raises a question: would upcoming Epic be more popular, if it was pre-painted and sold in WHSmith?
And when did GW actually do board games without multipart miniatures? Was that ever a thing - board games that are just that by GW?

Well, got my core copy of CitOW. I'm looking for CotHR expansion in a couple places. Connections are a good thing. I also have a friend who has the entire Dark Heresy RPG in mint condition. I told him to box it up until it's worth gold. Lol

Re: the buying new stuff for the kid example: the original description doesn't sound at all like a kid who was really determined to get into 40k and had all of their dreams crushed. The kid was a big fan of Star Wars, played a demo game of X-Wing, and liked it enough to get the starter set. And the fact that the parent didn't have any idea how much 40k costs suggests that the kid's interest in 40k was very new and casual, otherwise the parents probably would have heard some "buy me some space marines" requests before that point. So which is the better outcome: protecting the kid's casual interest in a game they aren't going to get (because the parent thinks it's way too much money), or getting them a different game they're going to enjoy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
Which raises a question: would upcoming Epic be more popular, if it was pre-painted and sold in WHSmith?

Probably not. The problem with Epic as a mainstream board game is that the whole appeal of the game is having massive armies that can't be represented at larger scales. A big part of X-Wing's success as a mainstream-store game is that, while people who really get into the game are going to buy a ton of ships, starting out you can follow the typical board game model of having a straightforward "out of the box" game. The starter set is three models, and if you buy another 1-2 models per player you can start playing normal games. A fairly small Epic starter set would still be a huge and intimidating box with 10+ units per side. Even if they're already painted that's still a ton of pieces and complexity, and it's pretty obvious that you're going to be collecting 100+ models very quickly if you want to play a normal game. The first impression is going to be the kind of game that appeals to the hardcore collectors who buy GW's current games, not a casual "let's play this tonight" kind of thing.

The second problem is that Epic doesn't have the brand recognition of Star Wars. Let's be honest here, everyone loves Star Wars toys. People would still buy X-Wing ships as desk ornaments even without the rules (though probably not at the same $15 price). And people have a ton of nostalgia about playing with their Star Wars ships, nostalgia that a game saying "pretend to be an x-wing pilot" taps into. But nothing like that exists for Epic. The people who have positive thoughts about the 40k IP are mostly people who are already aware of GW's games, you're not reaching a big uninformed market like X-Wing does in those stores. This isn't a fatal problem, as various board games have demonstrated, but taking away brand recognition as a factor means relying on selling the game on its own merits. And see the previous paragraph for why Epic would struggle in that situation.

TL;DR: Epic probably has little to gain from a presence in mainstream stores, and having pre-painted models doesn't change much.

It is worth remembering at the same time that in reality, no hobby one becomes deeply involved in will be particularly cheap. A new set of good golf clubs will dwarf the cost of even most GW armies, for example. As you look across the spectrum of most adult hobbies be it sports, crafting, vehicles, music or collections of various stripes you'll find that wargaming tends towards the bottom half of the spectrum in price. That's not to say it can't be fantastical sums of money mind you, just that other common pursuits can rack up the till even faster.

Where GW is missing the boat on that is indeed with the younger population. As illustrated, parents have finite amounts of money and may indeed have their own hobbies they want to pursue. They are very bottom-line conscious since they know how much money they have and what they still need to provide. As an adult if you choose to live off of ramen for a week to afford the newest release that's a bit crazy but hey, it's your life. If someone made their family do the same, most societies would take a slightly dimmer view of this.

Thus, parents DO tend to look for affordable alternatives in the market. Tomorrow the child may randomly decide they hate whatever it is they love today. This is where the old GW products of HeroQuest and Battlemasters were vital. They were reasonably affordable, easy to find and they gave exposure to plant seeds for a future hobbyist. Yes, it might be 8 years or so before they come back as a young adult, but when they do they will bring far more money than they can shake loose from mom's purse as a kid. I suspect some of the leadership at GW didn't like that timeframe, and have opted instead for the front-load model which in the longer-term could possibly be harmful as now there's a glut of product for the secondary market as parents clean out the kid's room when they go to college/move out.

FFG to an extent was filling in some of that gap GW presently has with accessibility, which is why the end of the license is going to hurt GW far more in the long-run based on their current strategies. KT is an okay toe in the water for GW, but they really have to get a system down to where the out-the-door price for a viable, "standard" force is more comparable to their growing competition which seems to be in the $100-150 range. I'm not sure GW still has the rules designers to figure out how to make that work based on the way boosting model sales has clearly dictated the rules design, nor do I think they can break the mold of "we make miniatures" to produce a true board or card game similar to what FFG was doing for them.

Rountree has pulled a few rabbits from his hat so maybe he's already set things in motion in this regard (GW does have a great deal of inertia), but I'm not sure that particular rabbit is hiding down in there at the moment.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
@Davor
If you got my point as: "buy everything to your little one, or you are a a cheap arse" , you got it wrong.
What I meant was: it doesn't seem right to choose the cheapest out of all alternatives, that can't substitute each other; without even knowing the shtick.

You painted a picture of a parent, who only sees the world of hobbies as grey matter with different price tags on them. And parenting of that particular "buyer" is what I didn't see to be good. My snarky remark was pointed at that.
For example: a kid likes to draw, but pencils and acrylics are too darn expensive. A kid also wanted a video game. It's cheaper. In your example, a parent will Pick the latter every time. After all, then a kid will need canvases, drawing lessons, more supplies. That's where I disagree- while the first one demands more money, it's better not to buy anything next month, but choose what is dearer to the kid.



You used an example with MTG, out of which I concluded, that a kid was already into it. I can only work with whatever you post to make a conclusion. so yeah, you should go through all the details, so people like me understand the whole described situation and the point you are trying to make.

Sorry, if I have offended you(certainly have), I should have made an explanation with details myself as well, really.

Nice to see your point of view and you didn't mean it. We both have erred then. I thought me saying "I let my son choose" meant he made the final decision, but I could have explained myself better as well. Apology accepted.

Sqorgar wrote:I've seen sales staff that acted in a similar manner. I think we've all known that guy who decides to push his bias on low information shoppers as a way to confirm the righteousness of his bias, and that kind of exploitation is not limited to just nosy customers.

Yes, so have I - and in those instances where I was their manager, I gently took them to one side afterwards and explained how to do it better next time.

frozenwastes wrote:That's awesome that you have a sales process. Too many stores have none. Or only the owner and manager have one and the employees go into "I don't care" mode the second that person leaves. I've definitely seen parents of early teens ask about 40k and the employee who can't be bothered to stop watching youtube videos sort of points at the section and that's it. If not for a couple of guys playing the game, she'd have had no idea what to get.

If you can't open and close a sale, you need to be trained to do so; that goes for me and any staff - be they a volunteer work experience spod or a multi-year retail experienced staff member. We're here to make sales and drive the business, not just to ogle the latest releases and dribble over the cool stuff!

 Gen.Steiner wrote:

Sqorgar wrote:I've seen sales staff that acted in a similar manner. I think we've all known that guy who decides to push his bias on low information shoppers as a way to confirm the righteousness of his bias, and that kind of exploitation is not limited to just nosy customers.

Yes, so have I - and in those instances where I was their manager, I gently took them to one side afterwards and explained how to do it better next time.

frozenwastes wrote:That's awesome that you have a sales process. Too many stores have none. Or only the owner and manager have one and the employees go into "I don't care" mode the second that person leaves. I've definitely seen parents of early teens ask about 40k and the employee who can't be bothered to stop watching youtube videos sort of points at the section and that's it. If not for a couple of guys playing the game, she'd have had no idea what to get.

If you can't open and close a sale, you need to be trained to do so; that goes for me and any staff - be they a volunteer work experience spod or a multi-year retail experienced staff member. We're here to make sales and drive the business, not just to ogle the latest releases and dribble over the cool stuff!

You also have to be careful in how you approach one customer interacting with another. On the one-hand you don't want people scaring off potential sales but on the other you don't want to alienate a regular customer in order to make a potential one-time sale. It would require tact which, in my experience, a great number of LGS employees lack. I stopped spending money at and visiting a LGS in my area when I overheard the owner griping quite loudly about people who didn't buy frequently enough for his taste; I believe he called them "deadbeats." So he lost quite a bit of money from sales to me which the friendlier store down the way was more than happy to accept.

Someone asked earlier about Forbidden Stars and how it is and I would like to know as well. It's been in my wishlist forever and I see that the price shot up after this announcement (surprise surprise) and I need to know if I should pick it up!

EDIT: Crud, this means I need to pick up Relic and all its expansions too! They really should have consulted me before this split. This is poor timing for my wallet.

EDIT2: Came into the argument a few pages late and missed quite a bit. Redacted.

 Dr_Keenbean wrote:
Kill Team is out. You can literally buy all that you need to two people to play 40k (minus, like, glue) for $65 retail now. Move on already.

The way to move on would have been to shut up about it, not draw a blatantly false comparison.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

And when did GW actually do board games without multipart miniatures? Was that ever a thing - board games that are just that by GW?

It was a thing, but it was a very long time ago (they even made card games!). The current crop of GW board games are fun, but there's definitely something to be said for being able to just buy a game and being able to play it almost immediately after taking it home. For example, Relic. They had a demo set up at the last US GamesDay in Memphis. One of our group bought a copy and we played it in the hotel room that evening. That would not have been possible with, say, Silver Tower as we had no clippers or glue.

I really think this is a case of both companies realizing (or simply believing) that they just don't need each other anymore. FFG has the Star Wars license which is doing incredibly well and GW has re-opened their specialist games division and is producing in-house board games again. Though I suspect GW will continue using their board games as a vehicle to move minis and get people to move to wargaming, and I really feel like that's a shame (see anecdote above).

Though who knows. GW has really been turning around over the last few months. I'm going to maintain cautious optimism ... whilst I try to scoop up the FFG 40k stuff in the meantime.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Dr_Keenbean wrote:
Kill Team is out. You can literally buy all that you need to two people to play 40k (minus, like, glue) for $65 retail now. Move on already.

The way to move on would have been to shut up about it, not draw a blatantly false comparison.

Indeed. The correct comparison between a completely new customer (like the mom in the actual example) walking into a GW store and walking out with the bare minimum actually needed to play the absolute cheapest version of 40k (Kill Team) isn't $65 but rather would be $135.35. Compare that to the $40 buyin for X-wing's all inclusive starter. You can of course lower the Kill Team buyin to under $100 by not buying GW branded items but rather other brands an indy game store but then you're NOT shopping at the HHH store like an earlier poster was lamenting resulting in this mustache twirling distardly mom getting "duped" into buying X-wing for 60%+ lower cost as a consequence of her bad parenting.

 warboss wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Dr_Keenbean wrote:
Kill Team is out. You can literally buy all that you need to two people to play 40k (minus, like, glue) for $65 retail now. Move on already.

The way to move on would have been to shut up about it, not draw a blatantly false comparison.

Indeed. The correct comparison between a completely new customer (like the mom in the actual example) walking into a GW store and walking out with the bare minimum actually needed to play the absolute cheapest version of 40k (Kill Team) isn't $65 but rather would be $135.35. Compare that to the $40 buyin for X-wing's all inclusive starter. You can of course lower the Kill Team buyin to under $100 by not buying GW branded items but rather other brands an indy game store but then you're NOT shopping at the HHH store like an earlier poster was lamenting resulting in this mustache twirling distardly mom getting "duped" into buying X-wing for 60%+ lower cost as a consequence of her bad parenting.

A simple hobby knife works just as well as those clippers, and don't the dice cubes include a scatter die?

That would be a case of picking at the details without fundamentally altering the argument.

Yes, a lot of people forget those other costs for starting a hobby like this. Paints, brushes, glue and tools.

I think this is a bit off track though now?

I'm very glad I've owned CitOW and the Horned Rat expansion for a long time now so I don't need to scramble for it, it's a genuinely good game.

Forbidden Stars I've played twice now, it's very good. Very very good. It can bog down for other players when 2 people are in a combat, but combat can go fairly fast once people are familiar with the rules. Our first combat in the first game I played took us around 10-15 minutes to go through. By the end of the game it was taking a few minutes.

 warboss wrote:
Indeed. The correct comparison between a completely new customer (like the mom in the actual example) walking into a GW store and walking out with the bare minimum actually needed to play the absolute cheapest version of 40k (Kill Team) isn't $65 but rather would be $135.35. Compare that to the $40 buyin for X-wing's all inclusive starter. You can of course lower the Kill Team buyin to under $100 by not buying GW branded items but rather other brands an indy game store but then you're NOT shopping at the HHH store like an earlier poster was lamenting resulting in this mustache twirling distardly mom getting "duped" into buying X-wing for 60%+ lower cost as a consequence of her bad parenting.

Dark Vengeance is a better starter set (has dice, templates, and rulers) and you can get it for less than $90. You'll need clippers ($8 on Amazon) and plastic cement ($8 for the good stuff). That's just over $100 to play a real(ly gray) game of Warhammer 40k at... I think 750 pts? - and that's if you don't split the box with a friend or consider Battle for Vedros to be an acceptable entry point. It's still more expensive, but you get a LOT more for your money. Most X-Wing players recommended buying at least two core sets because 3 miniatures doesn't really feel like a complete game, and even two core sets doesn't do the game justice without adding a few extra ships. Even then, the $33 Storm of Sigmar starter set has more models while still being cheaper than X-Wing.

The difference between a board game like X-Wing Miniatures and a miniature game like Warhammer 40k isn't the cost. It's the investment of time and effort, much of it up front. People who choose XWM do so because they don't want to spend several hours clipping and gluing 50+ miniatures before they can play. It's also why board gamers have trouble with stuff like Silver Tower or Deathwatch overkill. Any hobby element is too much hobby element.

 Azreal13 wrote:
That would be a case of picking at the details without fundamentally altering the argument.

A weakened argument is an altered argument.

Besides, are we forgetting that the most common advice you see for X-Wing beginners is to buy TWO starters so that you can enough ships for a proper game? With Kill Team you actually HAVE enough models for a proper game right in the box.

We can do this ALL DAY, Star Wars/FFG white knights.

No, you can't, you can't do it for 5 minutes, because there's no comparison.

The most common advice I see for new players, BtW, is buy whatever you like, because the games balanced enough to make nearly anything work. Buying two starters isn't something I've seen suggested that often, and it certainly isn't necessary to play the game.

The RPG books have been my last, desperate hope for quality 40k lore. Damn.

As for X-Wing, I'd be more interested if there were still a decent chance for GW or FFG to license the Attack Wing rules (or whatever the original version was called) for an updated Aeronautica Imperialis. X-Wing has always seemed boxed in by the Star Wars setting, whereas 40k had room to expand.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Buying two starters isn't something I've seen suggested that often, and it certainly isn't necessary to play the game.

It is extremely common advice. And I'd be curious to see how many games of X-Wing, using just the three ships in the core set, you can play before you get bored with it.

Well... GW started losing profit when the recession hit. Their solution? Charge more to the remaining buyers to keep profit levels the same. Net result, more people stopped buying, so they upped the prices further. A cycle they compounded by increasing the number of models required to keep people buying.

I can only imagine GW have done the same thing with FFG and upped the price of the licenses. FFG will have done the same as many GW customers did and decided to stop bothering.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
As for X-Wing, I'd be more interested if there were still a decent chance for GW or FFG to license the Attack Wing rules (or whatever the original version was called) for an updated Aeronautica Imperialis. X-Wing has always seemed boxed in by the Star Wars setting, whereas 40k had room to expand.

It's the other way around. Attack Wing licensed the X-Wing rules from FFG (and made a much worse game), and after this I wouldn't bet anything on FFG doing business with GW anymore. And honestly I'm not sure why it would be appealing in the first place, Aeronautica Imperialis is a very good game already. If a 40k air combat game is viable then all GW needs to do is promote the one they already have instead of neglecting it until even the few people who heard about it stop buying.

So a little more on-topic, I just checked the pricing of the Deathwatch RPG books on Amazon. The ones that are out of stock on FFG's site are priced between $130 and $5,000 ?!?

 EnTyme wrote:
So a little more on-topic, I just checked the pricing of the Deathwatch RPG books on Amazon. The ones that are out of stock on FFG's site are priced between $130 and $5,000 ?!?

Want to buy some books? LMAO!!!!

 Grot 6 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
So a little more on-topic, I just checked the pricing of the Deathwatch RPG books on Amazon. The ones that are out of stock on FFG's site are priced between $130 and $5,000 ?!?

Want to buy some books? LMAO!!!!

Right? I think I'll wait until the hysteria dies down before I actually consider buying any of that. Good thing I already bought the core book. I mean 5 grand? According to Azreal13, I could buy like 3 GW minis for that price!

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I'm starting to think I'm the only one that actually read Azreal13's post and understood that he was talking about comparing the prices of championship, tournament winning armies.

People are arguing X Wing isn't cheaper to play than 40K, we're not dealing with much logic here..

 EnTyme wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
So a little more on-topic, I just checked the pricing of the Deathwatch RPG books on Amazon. The ones that are out of stock on FFG's site are priced between $130 and $5,000 ?!?

Want to buy some books? LMAO!!!!

Right? I think I'll wait until the hysteria dies down before I actually consider buying any of that. Good thing I already bought the core book. I mean 5 grand? According to Azreal13, I could buy like 3 GW minis for that price!

Maybe I just don't get it but why would there be hysteria? How big of a market are we talking about here? Do they think there is a secret group of RPG players out there who are; a) wealthy, b) don't already have the product, and c) have to have it rather than some other rpg?

If I was interested in an RPG but saw an insane price for it and knew it would be unsupported forevermore, I'd look elsewhere.