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So, I hope I don't come off as too whiny, but here I go anyways.

I've been playing for about 4 years, and in that time the only unit I've come across that I simply can not fight are dreadknights. Maybe I play an larger-than-average amount of GK players, but dreadknights have always been an essentially unbeatable unit - not to mention that every GK player, ever, always takes 2-3 of them, regardless of point level.

And I get it. it's a good unit. If I played GK, I probably would max them out too.

But it's frustrating. I can't shoot them. I've played them multiple times with SAG big meks, lootas, flash gitz, and KMK batteries, and I can barely scratch them. Engaging the in melee is even worse. Fear tests coupled with the fact that they are a character and can instakill any character in my codex far before I1 via challenges means I can't bring my PKs to bear, and boyz do nothing to them. Walkers are even worse - deff dreads and kans die in droves without even getting to swing. The one time I managed to kill one with a walker was with a morkanaut, and the dreadknight was down to 1 wound and charged through difficult terrain. Had the terrain been open terrain, or if he had had even one more wound, we saw what would have happened, and it would have exploded the orkanaut.

Basically, it comes down to this. Any ranged unit capable of leveling any kind of threat to a dreadknight is killed or neutered turn 1. Shunt, torrent flamer + large blast template kills any ranged support options orks have. Then, any melee counterattack of mine is blunted by the fact I can't bring my character's PKs to bear due to challenges. If I have multiple units in the vicinity, I can use sacrificial characters, but due to fear tests and 4++s, it's bound to live longer than I have characters to throw at it. By round 2 or 3 of combat with one, it is inevitably supported by infantry, terminators and the like, which absolutely destroy my infantry en masse.

So, what usually happens is by ~turn 3, all of my melee infantry is dead, my ranged is crippled or run off the board, and whatever stragglers are left are incapable of mounting any kind of defense. Largely due to 2 or 3 enemy models.

And maybe I'm taking the bait, and charging it so that it can cover its more vulnerable allied infantry's arrival, but I simply cannot afford to not engage them in melee. Their shooting is absolutely devastating. I played a game once, where, no joke, one dreadknight made a 30-man boy squad with a warboss run off the table, and another dreadknight made a 15-man biker squad with painboy and warboss also run off the table. Top of turn 1, I was down 2 warbossess and probably ~600 points.

The solitary unit I have that can even threaten dreadknights are meganobz, but they are instakilled before I1, so the price of admission for even attempting to fight a dreadknight is ~4 dead meganobz. Not that I haven't tried it. Tankbustas, with their low price and melee melta bombs, were a solution until the FAQ limited them to one melta bomb per squad.

I guess my overall problem is that I have no efficient way of fighting them. Even on the rare times I manage to kill one, they usually pay for themselves in their first shooting phase, and then bring down at least their points value once again, if not twice, it seems like.

And it's left me to the point where I don't even want to fight GKs, simply due to dreadknights. I would rather fight an army with 3x imperial knights, or 3x wraithknights, than one with 3x dreadknights. Because I have fought triple wraithknight/imperial knight armies, and I can actually kill them, and win against them, unlike dreadknights.

Anyone have any useful tips for fighting dreadknights as orks? Because I do not.

I have a GK friend that brings a pair of dreadknights every game, and every game they're dead by turn 2-3.

The trick to killing them is (as I'm sure you know) that powerklaw nob and/or warboss in a big mess of boyz. I always (and I mean ALWAYS) put a fifteen-point mek in with each boy mob to accept challenges. Then the power klaws are free to slice the dreadknight to little pieces in short order.

Unless he keeps to a distance via teleportation, which significatly lessens their impact on the field, I unload a battlewagon's worth of boyz in its face (18 slugga boyz, 1 mek and 1 PK nob) and typically krump it in one go, sometimes two. It helps to strip a wound or two off with lootas or what-have-you, but not vital.

Sometimes he brings one too close to a fairly cheap foot-slogging unit of 30 with the same makup (to incinerate the crap out of them!), but what's left over always charges it and murders it double-quick.

That 15-pt tax for a lone mek has saved my bacon way more times than I (or my orks) can count!

Hope that helps!

Little mek is probably a good idea. But as for charging with boyz, I tried that last night with a ~25 man squad, charged it, passed their fear test, and did NOTHING. And that is typically my result. I simply cannot hurt them in close combat.

Granted, that was with the nob having to sit it out, but still, 100 attacks, zero damage.

I was reading this thinking to myself... yea, what CAN orks do in this situation??

The cheap mek idea is brilliant

Is it immune to Instant Death?
If not several Close combat threats to get it. Using the kill choppa and the uge, power klaw a force weapon, Maybe the teleyporta blasta on a Big Mek. I don't know...

You got 100 attacks and didn't scratch it? Dang. Statisically you should have put one wound on it per turn.

There is something else you could do, grots. Seriously, just swamp it with cheap grots and ignore it for most of the game. If you are lucky the Herders will put a wound or two on it.

 warhead01 wrote:
Is it immune to Instant Death?
If not several Close combat threats to get it. Using the kill choppa and the uge, power klaw a force weapon, Maybe the teleyporta blasta on a Big Mek. I don't know...

Banking on instant death from an unreliable (and overcosted) relic is not a good idea, nor is using the killa klaw since you only have one attack that can whiff or be blocked by his invuln. Ideally, combo charging him with 2 units of boyz with Nob PK's alongside or in replacement of the little mek idea (normally trukk boyz, but battlewagon ones work too). That way, you get extra insurance in case one squad fails their fear test while always having at least one klaw in play even with challenges (he can only punk one out between the two).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cuda1179 wrote:
You got 100 attacks and didn't scratch it? Dang. Statisically you should have put one wound on it per turn.

There is something else you could do, grots. Seriously, just swamp it with cheap grots and ignore it for most of the game. If you are lucky the Herders will put a wound or two on it.

As awesome as that would be, the runtherds would be challenged out slowly and with no easy access to fearless or stubborn they'll be swiftly run down by the dreadknight, who also has the mobility to choose their fights generally speaking barring mechanized ork units.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
...And I get it. it's a good unit. If I played GK, I probably would max them out too...

Quick note for emphasis: The Dreadknight is the only 'good' unit in the book. The rest is mediocre at best.

Anyway, getting back on topic, the Dreadknight's ability to warp in and drop an Incinerator blast over the backfield makes Ork infantry pretty unreliable as counters; if the GK player sees a mob of Lootas or Flash Gits they'll be disappearing pretty quickly. The Dreadknight is a character so it's hard to keep power-klaw Warbike nobs/bosses alive in a fight with it, and it can out-threat most of your tools anyway.

Running through the whole book the only thing that even resembles a cost-effective option (and it's far from reliable) is fishing for Hammerhand on a Weirdboy. It'd be difficult for the GK player to kill enough Boyz to stop his Dreadknights from getting overrun by S6 attacks.

Otherwise all I can tell you is 'take a Stompa and hope for the best'. If the Dreadknight isn't a hard-counter to the Ork Codex it's pretty close.

Sling lead, same philosophy with termies and with every model paying for an invul to protect its 2+ armor save, bring more lead. Throw more dice, hope they roll ones, use it on a dreadknight too.

Look for more opportunities to protect Lootas from templates, a KFF, a FnP, a battlewagon maybe, large cheap shoota boy bubble wrap (with a naked nob for later challenge fodder, because you want a warboss or deff dread to smack him from the side if assault happens).

You might try some Lobba, if only to snipe a sergeant or two, it might just mean you have characters to put in front of a dreadknight later in the game. Challenge manipulation is key here I think.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The Dreadknight is a character so it's hard to keep power-klaw Warbike nobs/bosses alive in a fight with it, and it can out-threat most of your tools anyway.

More than 1 characters, 1 who cares, 1+ with klaws is pretty decent. He challenges, your mek/whateva takes it, rest of the klaws then hack at it. It's You just need 10 attacks and it's dead in average. So basically you need 3 nobz or nob+warboss along with mekkie. Plus rest of attacks help unless you have badly loaded dices (as he seems to be if he can't damage it even with 100 attacks)

Weirdboy might work but how sporting it is to tailor your list vs your opponent is another thing. Weirdboy is useless so often and takes up valuable HQ slot so unless you are tailoring list against GK you aren't going to have one...

Honestly just get a Void Sheld Generator to protect your ranged inf. The DK will be forced into using its psycannon to pop it, there is a decent chance (47% if I did it right) that 1 shield will be remaining meaning the flamer is still useless.

Or use a bunker with escape hatch to set a trap for the DK where it has to forced into assault with your tailored unit.

Skyshield is the one fortification I would not recommend.

Once one DK is dead the offense collapses, really the rest of the game is mop up. Just take 2 units of meganobz to shield the rest of the troops, even if you don't use them on a DK they roll over the rest of the GK army because the DK is our only good unit with access to AP2.

I have faced them in the past and actually managed to kill them with Squads of 30 + pwrklw nobz. This took a few turnes but it worked. They are no characters and can't challenge the nob.

the only downside is that I no longer field those units due them being useless. And any smart GK player will just give them their torrent flamer and stat out of the blobs reach


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry checked the codex it apparently is a character in the current codex ( not sure if it was in the old one ). this makes the whole stuff even worse by having to buy a mek in order to decline and strike.

Zapp Guns and KMK are potentially a good ranged counter to Dreadknights as they bypass the 2+ armor and are resilient to the Dreadknights ranged attacks with the grot crew being T7. Swamping the Knight with multiple MSU boyz squads with PK nobz is also good or as mentioned already having little meks jump in front of challenges. Outside of the DKs most of the Grey Knight army is going to have lackluster shooting and unless juiced on hammerhand they are just about as effective as vanilla marines in CC considering their AP3 weapons don't mean gak considering our already abysmal 6+ armor.

The most reasonable strategy is honestly using Meganobz and a unit of boyz to charge into it. Have the boyz Nob challenge the DK so he has to accept and the Meganobz can safely fight away as the overflow wounds are being directed at the Boyz unit. The PKs will turn the Dread Knight into a wrecked baby carrier in no time.

Whilst fighting in the challenge other models locked in the combat can allocate wounds to the models involved in the challenge if there are no other enemy models locked in that combat. In other words, hit it with multiple PKs in one phase.

Little meks + tarpitting with a blob works wonders. A squad of 30 boyz will hold 1-2 dk for half the game - they don't have an ungodly number of attacks.

 Quickjager wrote:
Honestly just get a Void Sheld Generator to protect your ranged inf. The DK will be forced into using its psycannon to pop it, there is a decent chance (47% if I did it right) that 1 shield will be remaining meaning the flamer is still useless.

Or use a bunker with escape hatch to set a trap for the DK where it has to forced into assault with your tailored unit.

Skyshield is the one fortification I would not recommend.

Once one DK is dead the offense collapses, really the rest of the game is mop up. Just take 2 units of meganobz to shield the rest of the troops, even if you don't use them on a DK they roll over the rest of the GK army because the DK is our only good unit with access to AP2.

What about lord Caldor Draigo?

 Jaxler wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Honestly just get a Void Sheld Generator to protect your ranged inf. The DK will be forced into using its psycannon to pop it, there is a decent chance (47% if I did it right) that 1 shield will be remaining meaning the flamer is still useless.

Or use a bunker with escape hatch to set a trap for the DK where it has to forced into assault with your tailored unit.

Skyshield is the one fortification I would not recommend.

Once one DK is dead the offense collapses, really the rest of the game is mop up. Just take 2 units of meganobz to shield the rest of the troops, even if you don't use them on a DK they roll over the rest of the GK army because the DK is our only good unit with access to AP2.

What about lord Caldor Draigo?

Walk away slowly. He may have Gate but in pure GK the only threat he offers is in melee and he can be kited easily.

What about Draigo? Even with EW, he only has 4 wounds! He's an HQ killer, not a blob killer. Charge him with grots or boys and tie him up for the rest of the game. Draigo is much less scary to orks than almost any other army.

tneva82 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The Dreadknight is a character so it's hard to keep power-klaw Warbike nobs/bosses alive in a fight with it, and it can out-threat most of your tools anyway.

More than 1 characters, 1 who cares, 1+ with klaws is pretty decent. He challenges, your mek/whateva takes it, rest of the klaws then hack at it. It's You just need 10 attacks and it's dead in average. So basically you need 3 nobz or nob+warboss along with mekkie. Plus rest of attacks help unless you have badly loaded dices (as he seems to be if he can't damage it even with 100 attacks)

Weirdboy might work but how sporting it is to tailor your list vs your opponent is another thing. Weirdboy is useless so often and takes up valuable HQ slot so unless you are tailoring list against GK you aren't going to have one...

Not following your math. 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 5++ or 4++ is 15-20 power klaw attacks to kill a Dreadknight on average.

I'm not recommending powerklaw Nobz because they're expensive and melt to the Incinerator. Meganobz in a Battlewaggon would be a decent idea, now that I look, but it's an expensive one.

 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
What about Draigo? Even with EW, he only has 4 wounds! He's an HQ killer, not a blob killer. Charge him with grots or boys and tie him up for the rest of the game. Draigo is much less scary to orks than almost any other army.

I'm not asking if he's spooky against orks, I'm asking if he's okay high ap.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The Dreadknight is a character so it's hard to keep power-klaw Warbike nobs/bosses alive in a fight with it, and it can out-threat most of your tools anyway.

More than 1 characters, 1 who cares, 1+ with klaws is pretty decent. He challenges, your mek/whateva takes it, rest of the klaws then hack at it. It's You just need 10 attacks and it's dead in average. So basically you need 3 nobz or nob+warboss along with mekkie. Plus rest of attacks help unless you have badly loaded dices (as he seems to be if he can't damage it even with 100 attacks)

Weirdboy might work but how sporting it is to tailor your list vs your opponent is another thing. Weirdboy is useless so often and takes up valuable HQ slot so unless you are tailoring list against GK you aren't going to have one...

Not following your math. 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 5++ or 4++ is 15-20 power klaw attacks to kill a Dreadknight on average.

I'm not recommending powerklaw Nobz because they're expensive and melt to the Incinerator. Meganobz in a Battlewaggon would be a decent idea, now that I look, but it's an expensive one.

Forgot the had the inv save. Whoops.

And as for incinerators...Nobz have these ablative wounds called "boyz" around them so short of barrages as long as you keep nobz inside mob rather than at the front he's fairly safe from shooting

 Jaxler wrote:

 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
What about Draigo? Even with EW, he only has 4 wounds! He's an HQ killer, not a blob killer. Charge him with grots or boys and tie him up for the rest of the game. Draigo is much less scary to orks than almost any other army.

I'm not asking if he's spooky against orks, I'm asking if he's okay high ap.

I have also found that 'tarpitting' GK units simply does not work. Not only do they generally have a good amount of S6 (hammerhand) AP3 attacks, army-wide, but all ork infantry are 100% guaranteed to lose combat, so mob rule is liable to do their job for them. You ever try charging things like paladins with boyz? I've lost 15 on the turn I charge them, and that's without draigo, and pre-mob rule. Even full squads of boys generally last no longer than 3 rounds of combat with any GK unit, which is hardly a tarpit, imo.

Tarpitting dreadknights is somewhat effective, but lasts only until the dreadknight gets support from its allies. If even a small squad of anything joins the fray, the boyz are toast. Or hell, just a cleansing flame or 2.

And tarpitting ANYTHING with grots is a contradiction in terms, unless you're rock solid on rolling snake eyes for leadership tests, as they can't benefit even from mob rule.

Draigo is another ball of suck, honestly. Just like dreadknights, there's absolutely nothing I can do about him. He's too fast to shoot down with gate, and goddammned invincible in CC.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
What about Draigo? Even with EW, he only has 4 wounds! He's an HQ killer, not a blob killer. Charge him with grots or boys and tie him up for the rest of the game. Draigo is much less scary to orks than almost any other army.

I'm not asking if he's spooky against orks, I'm asking if he's okay high ap.

I have also found that 'tarpitting' GK units simply does not work. Not only do they generally have a good amount of S6 (hammerhand) AP3 attacks, army-wide, but all ork infantry are 100% guaranteed to lose combat, so mob rule is liable to do their job for them. You ever try charging things like paladins with boyz? I've lost 15 on the turn I charge them, and that's without draigo, and pre-mob rule. Even full squads of boys generally last no longer than 3 rounds of combat with any GK unit, which is hardly a tarpit, imo.

Tarpitting dreadknights is somewhat effective, but lasts only until the dreadknight gets support from its allies. If even a small squad of anything joins the fray, the boyz are toast. Or hell, just a cleansing flame or 2.

And tarpitting ANYTHING with grots is a contradiction in terms, unless you're rock solid on rolling snake eyes for leadership tests, as they can't benefit even from mob rule.

Draigo is another ball of suck, honestly. Just like dreadknights, there's absolutely nothing I can do about him. He's too fast to shoot down with gate, and goddammned invincible in CC.

I'm wondering about your dice again, honestly. Even with Hammerhand up it takes 24ppm to get more than a single attack out of a Grey Knight.

Draigo you should be walking away from. He's useless if he can't get into CC, he can't charge after Deep Striking, and the only way he moves faster than you is by Deep Striking with Gate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
[ABRIDGED]

Forgot the had the inv save. Whoops.

And as for incinerators...Nobz have these ablative wounds called "boyz" around them so short of barrages as long as you keep nobz inside mob rather than at the front he's fairly safe from shooting

Sorry, thought you were referring to the 'Nobz Mob' unit. Nobs in combat can be challenge-sniped before they have a chance to swing, it's usable but you're going to lose characters doing it and that can start to get expensive.

Yea Draigo is garbage against Orks really, I am more suprised you don't have more trouble against purifiers.

When I play against GK's and he brings in those damned dreadknights what I do is send in a suicide unit of Boyz, team that up with my Warboss on bike with DLS and PK and a Warbiker squad with a painboy, a nob with PK and a handful of T5 boyz. IF the knight challenges I accept with Biker nob and swing away with boyz and the warboss I generally don't kill first turn, but by 2nd CC phase I have whittled down his wounds and my Warboss will usually kill him. This is an extremely expensive way to deal with the thing, and worse if he has two. What is absolutely terrible though is if the GK player was smart enough to have almost any other unit nearby. When they charge that is when the orks die in droves.

Are the boyz today fearless in numbers? Because as far as I remember when orks assault the Dreadnight they have to make a leadership test first.

 Capt. Camping wrote:
Are the boyz today fearless in numbers? Because as far as I remember when orks assault the Dreadnight they have to make a leadership test first.

Nope they are cowardly leadership 7 these days. Mob rule does nothing for fear checks and they couldn't give the decency of making Nobz leadership 8.

Take a normal mob squad in a battlewagon. Put 2-3 klaws and everyone else gets big choppas. DO NOT put the klaws on the character. Give someone else in the unit a bosspole and leave the boss in the back. Its worked for me. Other than that the green tide killed 2 in one turn. They shjnted up and burned boys then got charged by the other 80 and 12 pks.... Ya they died fast along with anyone else nearby. Also naughts have worked for me. Especially the krushin krew. They are only ap2 so it shouldn't normally blow you up. If you get the charge then you should do about two wounds and match what it did to you. Then the next round you swing first and probably finish it.

Bring a squadrons of dakka jets in conjunction with lootas to wound spam. Then set it up for a charge from a large unit of boyz, then follow it up (after overwatch) with nob bikers. Don't forget the mekie in the unit of boyz (20+ for what I'm thinking ). Hit the other one with MANZ assaulting out of a battle wagon. Hopefully after your dakka has shaved a few wounds off this should be manageable. I know it will be most of your army to kill two MCs, but they are (for the most part) the only super threat. The rest of the army is too slow to do all that much once they either drop in or after you pop the transports. If your opponent brings a land raider crusader (or dakka raven) full of nasty and the jumpers to compliment the baby carriers I really don't know what to do for ya.