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Martel732 wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
They need some of the 30k boosts.

Like they got 2 wounds. Some have more powerful weaponry and helps ots more balenced.

They need more wounds, maybe a T boost and more firepower.
There rules are stuck several editions ago.

You can't give multiple wounds because MANZ.

Weapons, maybe, but all their weapons have been passed by as well.

Can't give T boost, because that's centurion.

True but your also taking terminators at a premium, they are base 200 cents at base 160 iirc so by logic the terms should be t5 w2 seeing as how that would be 10 wounds total to 6 total the cents have. So for 40 points your getting an invul, 5 more wounds and better movement.

But the draw back is, terminators are s8 at i1 stock. Where cents are striking, if you take drills, str 10 at I4 with like 3 attacks each so it all comes out in the wash. I think a t5 2w would be an great way to make the useful again.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
They need some of the 30k boosts.

Like they got 2 wounds. Some have more powerful weaponry and helps ots more balenced.

They need more wounds, maybe a T boost and more firepower.
There rules are stuck several editions ago.

You can't give multiple wounds because MANZ.

Weapons, maybe, but all their weapons have been passed by as well.

Can't give T boost, because that's centurion.

True but your also taking terminators at a premium, they are base 200 cents at base 160 iirc so by logic the terms should be t5 w2 seeing as how that would be 10 wounds total to 6 total the cents have. So for 40 points your getting an invul, 5 more wounds and better movement.

But the draw back is, terminators are s8 at i1 stock. Where cents are striking, if you take drills, str 10 at I4 with like 3 attacks each so it all comes out in the wash. I think a t5 2w would be an great way to make the useful again.

Compared to man portable strengh D.
Monsterous creatures
And more

It hardly makes them game breaking.

2 w, T5
And not sure how but boost the storm bolter...
Maybe some rule about supressive fire into assault reducing overwatch?

Terminators should teleport in game like warp spiders.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
They need some of the 30k boosts.

Like they got 2 wounds. Some have more powerful weaponry and helps ots more balenced.

They need more wounds, maybe a T boost and more firepower.
There rules are stuck several editions ago.

You can't give multiple wounds because MANZ.

Weapons, maybe, but all their weapons have been passed by as well.

Can't give T boost, because that's centurion.

True but your also taking terminators at a premium, they are base 200 cents at base 160 iirc so by logic the terms should be t5 w2 seeing as how that would be 10 wounds total to 6 total the cents have. So for 40 points your getting an invul, 5 more wounds and better movement.

But the draw back is, terminators are s8 at i1 stock. Where cents are striking, if you take drills, str 10 at I4 with like 3 attacks each so it all comes out in the wash. I think a t5 2w would be an great way to make the useful again.

It would be a great way to copy Centurions again like previous threads have done.

Make LC Terminators 30 with the TH/SS a 5 point upgrade. Make the Storm Bolter S5 and allow 2 Heavy Weapons per five Terminators. Bam, I just fixed them without completely altering their profile.

Presumably, only terminator armor would get S5 stormbolters.

Storm Bolters need to be thrown a bone. I'd even consider giving them 30" range with the S5. With Heavy Bolters then becoming Salvo 2/4 of course.

I honestly wish cents were not in the game, they are just always in a weird spot and vastly overshadow the terminators.

I would be ok with a SB getting a nice buff, i think a rapid fire would be worth while.

Centurions were really just a 'hey lets give the SM a new model' sort of thing rather than a well thought out rules concept to me. Possibly also a justification for Chaos Obliterators and Mutilators.


Really, better Terminator rules instead of Centurions was the way to go.

I'm also slightly bitter that they get to move and shoot effectively but Broadsides don't.

Terminators where here long before the centurions.

So there treading on the terminator ground.

Except they are actually functional.

A shunt teleport would be more fitting. Copy paste it from the dreadknight pretty much and I'd be happy.

Shunt only helps units that have a shooting alpha strike... I think I am a bit qualified to talk about that mechanic.

They would remain units that have trouble getting into melee as shunt of course prevents charges. Furthermore after that shunt they lose any mobility which means you either need a MSU of Termies to box them in, or hope your opponent makes a mistake in deployment and let's them get caught. The DK isn't scary because of the shunt, it's scary because it can chase you down consistently with its 12 inch move.

I think deepstrike mechanics themselves need to change as a whole in order to make Termies competitive again.

First the b2b contact followed by the flower pattern needs to go, it simply leaves a squad too vulnerable.
Second the scatter amount needs to be reduced based off the deepstrike method, teleporters would be more accurate they should only be D6.
Third deepstrike onto a teleporter Homer needs to allow 6 inch charges.

There are more changes for other deepstrike units I would go on about but these affect Termies the most.

Shunt would help Terminators a lot by allowing them to start on the board turn 1 and safely getting into the enemy's line for a turn 2 charge (or at the very least force a response from the enemy). Thing about terminators currently is they either deep strike in turn 2 or later (minus a few detachments like NSF that can have turn 1) or have to take an insanely expensive land box or flyer box to get to the enemy and assault out. Shunt would make it so terminators are a turn 2 threat every time and removes the reliance on overpriced transports for them to be functional.

For example having MSU Terminator units that could shunt up the flanks while having simultaneous drop pod or rhino rush pressure to overwhelm the enemy and cut off their mobility and retreat paths.

 Vankraken wrote:
Shunt would help Terminators a lot by allowing them to start on the board turn 1 and safely getting into the enemy's line for a turn 2 charge (or at the very least force a response from the enemy). Thing about terminators currently is they either deep strike in turn 2 or later (minus a few detachments like NSF that can have turn 1) or have to take an insanely expensive land box or flyer box to get to the enemy and assault out. Shunt would make it so terminators are a turn 2 threat every time and removes the reliance on overpriced transports for them to be functional.

For example having MSU Terminator units that could shunt up the flanks while having simultaneous drop pod or rhino rush pressure to overwhelm the enemy and cut off their mobility and retreat paths.

Getting up into the enemy is not the problem thats easy as hell to do becuse there is multiple ways to do it.

Drop pods with teleport homors
Bikes with teleport homers
Characters with teleport homers
Land raiders
Various air vehicles.

The problem with terminators is that where they should excel they dont, for being a 200 point base cost, they only get 5 wounds and are strikeing at I1, granted, they kill or wound almost anything with that attack, but they are other wise very thin. With a single wound each on guy, bam, down 2 attacks, 3 on a charge.

If you wanna fix terminators give them 2 wounds and a T5. Yes this is the same as a centurion blah blah blah, but thats fine, they are menat to be the elite of the elite. People like to throw out hte 5+ invul save that the centurions dont get, which is a very moot argument because if you are playing cents correctly you almost never end up useing it since your cents should be in a transport and dropped face to face with enemy blobs, and not getting shot at until they are done smashing. Not to mention they still get S10 AP1 at I4

" but thats fine,"

No, it's not fine because of MANZ.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Shunt would help Terminators a lot by allowing them to start on the board turn 1 and safely getting into the enemy's line for a turn 2 charge (or at the very least force a response from the enemy). Thing about terminators currently is they either deep strike in turn 2 or later (minus a few detachments like NSF that can have turn 1) or have to take an insanely expensive land box or flyer box to get to the enemy and assault out. Shunt would make it so terminators are a turn 2 threat every time and removes the reliance on overpriced transports for them to be functional.

For example having MSU Terminator units that could shunt up the flanks while having simultaneous drop pod or rhino rush pressure to overwhelm the enemy and cut off their mobility and retreat paths.

Getting up into the enemy is not the problem thats easy as hell to do becuse there is multiple ways to do it.

Drop pods with teleport homors
Bikes with teleport homers
Characters with teleport homers
Land raiders
Various air vehicles.

The problem with terminators is that where they should excel they dont, for being a 200 point base cost, they only get 5 wounds and are strikeing at I1, granted, they kill or wound almost anything with that attack, but they are other wise very thin. With a single wound each on guy, bam, down 2 attacks, 3 on a charge.

All of those methods are turn 2 or later before they are on the board having any impact and generally turn 3 assaults (unless using the land raider which is a massive point sink). Making them self reliant on getting up the board turn 1 and into position for turn 2 to charge helps bring them into the turn 2 charge capable group of units.
Now granted I don't play vanilla space marines so apparently their terminators are different compared to what the wolves have (vanilla marines get some cheap claws and PFs). One thing it seems vanilla terminators lack that the wolves have (and what would make shunt useful) is the ability to take combi weapons. Being able to shunt in turn 1 to unload 5 combi plasmas into a unit and be set to charge in turn 2 with power weapons would make them impactful turn 1 and help justify their points cost instead of being a giant points sink. Also its surprising to me that vanilla terminators can't take power axes or mauls while only the squad leader gets a sword (which is worse than a PF....).

If you wanna fix terminators give them 2 wounds and a T5. Yes this is the same as a centurion blah blah blah, but thats fine, they are menat to be the elite of the elite. People like to throw out hte 5+ invul save that the centurions dont get, which is a very moot argument because if you are playing cents correctly you almost never end up useing it since your cents should be in a transport and dropped face to face with enemy blobs, and not getting shot at until they are done smashing. Not to mention they still get S10 AP1 at I4

At no points adjustment that would be silly. T5 with one wound is reasonable considering they are more bulky or maybe add FNP to give them some increased durability to all non instant death shooting.

Holy crap, why are you guys trying to make them as durable as Centurions? They will lack the offense of Centurions so all you did is make them useless still. You're not giving them a niche.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Holy crap, why are you guys trying to make them as durable as Centurions? They will lack the offense of Centurions so all you did is make them useless still. You're not giving them a niche.

We could delete Centurions...

There are models for them. Fat chance.

Martel732 wrote:
There are models for them. Fat chance.

A man can dream.

I still think an interesting fix would be all assault cannons.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Holy crap, why are you guys trying to make them as durable as Centurions? They will lack the offense of Centurions so all you did is make them useless still. You're not giving them a niche.

We could delete Centurions...

I'd probably be fine with this, really. Centurions basically came in and stepped on terminators' toes while the terminators were still suffering mechanically.

For the sake of argument, giving terminators the option of "shunting" instead of deepstriking would make them mobile but relatively squishy (and less hard-hitting) compared to centurions. So they'd basically become "centurions you don't have to buy a transport for." Personally, I rather like the idea of shunting terminators forward on turn 1 to meet up with a bunch of drop podding, scouting, infiltrating, etc. forces to hit my opponent hard on turn 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think an interesting fix would be all assault cannons.

I politely disagree. Going all assault cannons would up their shooting offense, but I'm not sure terminators are really mean to be a major shooting threat (despite having a melee-centric counterpart).

I feel like terminators are meant to be "super marines" in the sense that they take a marine's durability and then take it to the next level. They look at a bolter, then turn it into a storm bolter to take it to the next level. They see a marine punching a truck to death, and then bring a power fist that hits literally twice as hard. They see a tac marine packing a special weapon, and they bring their own plus they can shoot it on the move.

Which isn't a bad design concept in a game of a slightly smaller scale than a modern 1850 point 40k game, but it doesn't hold up in the face of riptides and such. Maybe part of the problem is that "normal" 40k is simply too large? How do terminators look in a game of 1500 points or even 1250? I don't play my marines very often, but I feel like they get a lot more useful when you're facing fewer big big guns and mostly just have to deal with small arms fire.

", but I'm not sure terminators are really mean to be a major shooting threat"

What they're meant to be doesn't function in the game anymore. It never really did. The humble plasma gun makes terminators incredibly inefficient. That and their regular gun being AP 5. I'm not paying 35-40 pts for more AP 5 shooting.

There's nothing next level about the stormbolter, and powerfists get you murdered vs MCs.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Holy crap, why are you guys trying to make them as durable as Centurions? They will lack the offense of Centurions so all you did is make them useless still. You're not giving them a niche.

We could delete Centurions...

Im not against this idea

As far as the initial suggestion of giving them a Jump Pack, this doesn't work on a number of levels for me, the first of which is it doesn't solve the problem. The next level is giving them Jump Packs doesn't really fit the "Vibe" of Terminators.

As for Centurions, I feel like they need a rework so that they're not treading on the niche that was supposed to be for Tactical and Assault Terminators. What the Centurions should be is something I can't speculate on, but they shouldn't be doing what Terminators were designed for.

And finally for the Terminators themselves, I reckon they should not only have two wounds, but should also ignore the Unwieldy Special Rule. The bane of the Assault Terminators is the Initiative 1 pitfall of Thunder Hammers combined with only having 1 Wound. Yes, they get some pretty terrific saves, but based on some relatively extensive personal experience with Assault Terminators, that save is a lot less valuable than the value of the save implies.

So MANZ get what? 3 wounds? 4 wounds?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Holy crap, why are you guys trying to make them as durable as Centurions? They will lack the offense of Centurions so all you did is make them useless still. You're not giving them a niche.

We could delete Centurions...

We aren't deleting unit entries because you're butthurt about how you feel about the models. How about you actually attempt on fixing Terminators by making them more dangerous instead whilst Centurions be less scary but more durable?

You all have yet to address Martel'so point about MANz too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Holy crap, why are you guys trying to make them as durable as Centurions? They will lack the offense of Centurions so all you did is make them useless still. You're not giving them a niche.

Because Terminators' durability is supposed to what the Centurions emulate?

Centurions are durable walking gun platforms, Terminators are durable close ranged shock troops.

7th ed is about killing. You will never achieve true durability on a statline without having a buff like invisibility in play. Terminators need more offense the turn they arrive, because they likely won't ever get to charge. The fluff about terminators is already meaningless because of GW's other decisions like scatbikes.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Holy crap, why are you guys trying to make them as durable as Centurions? They will lack the offense of Centurions so all you did is make them useless still. You're not giving them a niche.

Because Terminators' durability is supposed to what the Centurions emulate?

Centurions are durable walking gun platforms, Terminators are durable close ranged shock troops.

I would agree with this IF you could assault out of deep strike.

That would be a very good way to buff them, turn them into actual shock troopers and let them assault on a deep strike, even if an unordered charge would be nice.

Its really frustrating when i run by DW knights they deep strike in and look like donkey-caves the first turn they come in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
7th ed is about killing. You will never achieve true durability on a statline without having a buff like invisibility in play. Terminators need more offense the turn they arrive, because they likely won't ever get to charge. The fluff about terminators is already meaningless because of GW's other decisions like scatbikes.

This, i mean, DW terminators are not that bad since they turn they come in everything is twin linked, but again, not being able to charge sucks.