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That makes them too much better than MANZ. You can't propose this without adjusting a bunch of other models.

This addresses one aspect: sub S8 fire vulnerability. This is the exact reason many people favor MANZ over terminators, actually. And you are taking it away.

At this point, I'm just representing Ork players because I've seen these exact discussions before. And they weren't as nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
you can

"terminator teleporter"

Terminators have the deep strike rule, in addition due to the blinding light and concussive burst of the terminators arrival via deep strike, they are not subject to the interceptor rule or any similar rules.

So they shoot you on their real turn? So much better. Because everyone is so terrified of terminator shooting ability.

yep, no interceptor though, and that was the point being made, that you cant make interceptor immunity without making termies OP

Okay I should have been more general, then. Ion accelerator to the face in any form.

Martel732 wrote:
That makes them too much better than MANZ. You can't propose this without adjusting a bunch of other models.

This addresses one aspect: sub S8 fire vulnerability. This is the exact reason many people favor MANZ over terminators, actually. And you are taking it away.

At this point, I'm just representing Ork players because I've seen these exact discussions before. And they weren't as nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
you can

"terminator teleporter"

Terminators have the deep strike rule, in addition due to the blinding light and concussive burst of the terminators arrival via deep strike, they are not subject to the interceptor rule or any similar rules.

So they shoot you on their real turn? So much better. Because everyone is so terrified of terminator shooting ability.

yep, no interceptor though, and that was the point being made, that you cant make interceptor immunity without making termies OP

Okay I should have been more general, then. Ion accelerator to the face in any form.

Then wahat are the stats of MANZ lets so how they stack up to terminators

assumeing the extra wound we are looking at the following

4s for S WS BS and T, 2 W I4 Ld9

at 40 points a model at 200 for 5 bare bones.

that 5 SB, 5 power fists which on a charge will give you 12 S8 AP 2 I1 strikes and 3 S4 AP 3 I4 strikes, on a charge. 8 S8 AP2 I1 hits and 2 S4 ap 3 I4 hits in combat.

What do MANZ look like.

thats going to be 6 wounds, so 4 less, but thats 12 S8 AP2 I1 attacks

excluding the sergeant, which still get armor saves, they are even when attacking. On top of that MANZ are only 120 points compaired to the suggested 200 point price tag for terminators im suggesting the premiem you are getting is 4 extra wounds, which will still be going up against insta death so it wont matter much. You could include 2 more MANZ to have it 5v5 and the nobs will vastly out perform the terminators even with 2 wounds, so the idea you keep going on about MANZ being better is clearly not the case with the suggested change of 200 points per 5 models 2 wounds each.

in a 5v5 assumeing no charge bonus, 200 points for base models you get the following

S8 AP 2 I1 x8
S4 AP3 I4 x2

vs

S8 AP2 I1 x15

So even if the Powersword managed to get all its wounds off you still have 5 MANZ that are going to strike at the same Init as the rest of the terminators and will be doing insta death on the terminators

Martel732 wrote:
That makes them too much better than MANZ. You can't propose this without adjusting a bunch of other models.

This addresses one aspect: sub S8 fire vulnerability. This is the exact reason many people favor MANZ over terminators, actually. And you are taking it away.

At this point, I'm just representing Ork players because I've seen these exact discussions before. And they weren't as nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
you can

"terminator teleporter"

Terminators have the deep strike rule, in addition due to the blinding light and concussive burst of the terminators arrival via deep strike, they are not subject to the interceptor rule or any similar rules.

So they shoot you on their real turn? So much better. Because everyone is so terrified of terminator shooting ability.

yep, no interceptor though, and that was the point being made, that you cant make interceptor immunity without making termies OP

Okay I should have been more general, then. Ion accelerator to the face in any form.

then ill fix that too

WS 5
BS 5
S 4
T 6
W 1
I 4
A 3
LD 9
SV 2+/4++
Terminator teleporter: on the turn the unit arrives, you may only fire snap shots at it.
Terminator Storm Bolter: str4 ap5 assault 4 "mass reactive" when rolling to would with Terminator storm bolters, a roll of a 6+ to wound causes an automatic wound at AP2
Terminator power fist: str x2 ap2 "lumbering strike" -1 to terminator I when in combat.
Terminator Assault cannon: str 6 ap4 assault 6 rending
Terminator Heavy Flamer: str5 ap4 torrent
Terminator Multi melta:

30pts per model

Terminator armour: 40pts for a character +2 to toughness, 2+/4++

Not even slightly OP these days, can shoot like a boss, can tank small arms quite well and plasma, now become a real viable alternative to sternguard etc., also now competes with bike lords/chapter masters

 Formosa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That makes them too much better than MANZ. You can't propose this without adjusting a bunch of other models.

This addresses one aspect: sub S8 fire vulnerability. This is the exact reason many people favor MANZ over terminators, actually. And you are taking it away.

At this point, I'm just representing Ork players because I've seen these exact discussions before. And they weren't as nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
you can

"terminator teleporter"

Terminators have the deep strike rule, in addition due to the blinding light and concussive burst of the terminators arrival via deep strike, they are not subject to the interceptor rule or any similar rules.

So they shoot you on their real turn? So much better. Because everyone is so terrified of terminator shooting ability.

yep, no interceptor though, and that was the point being made, that you cant make interceptor immunity without making termies OP

Okay I should have been more general, then. Ion accelerator to the face in any form.

then ill fix that too

WS 5
BS 5
S 4
T 6
W 1
I 4
A 3
LD 9
SV 2+/4++
Terminator teleporter: on the turn the unit arrives, you may only fire snap shots at it.
Terminator Storm Bolter: str4 ap5 assault 4 "mass reactive" when rolling to would with Terminator storm bolters, a roll of a 6+ to wound causes an automatic wound at AP2
Terminator power fist: str x2 ap2 "lumbering strike" -1 to terminator I when in combat.
Terminator Assault cannon: str 6 ap4 assault 6 rending
Terminator Heavy Flamer: str5 ap4 torrent
Terminator Multi melta:

30pts per model

Terminator armour: 40pts for a character +2 to toughness, 2+/4++

Not even slightly OP these days, can shoot like a boss, can tank small arms quite well and plasma, now become a real viable alternative to sternguard etc., also now competes with bike lords/chapter masters

Or even take a look at my suggestion making them 200 points for 5 bare bones, with 2 wounds each would work.

That's at least worth playtesting, but Ork players are going to lose their minds.

Martel732 wrote:
That's at least worth playtesting, but Ork players are going to lose their minds.

Not really, since most people never run terminators in favor of more powerful units, even with this change, and even still even at 120, 3 models MANZ are still going to stand toe to toe with a 5 man squad of terminators, they only need to get 5 wounds in to wipe out the whole squad, assuming they dont make the invul save.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's at least worth playtesting, but Ork players are going to lose their minds.

Not really, since most people never run terminators in favor of more powerful units, even with this change, and even still even at 120, 3 models MANZ are still going to stand toe to toe with a 5 man squad of terminators, they only need to get 5 wounds in to wipe out the whole squad, assuming they dont make the invul save.

There's more than just heads up comparison. This proposed unit is way better vs the field.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's at least worth playtesting, but Ork players are going to lose their minds.

Not really, since most people never run terminators in favor of more powerful units, even with this change, and even still even at 120, 3 models MANZ are still going to stand toe to toe with a 5 man squad of terminators, they only need to get 5 wounds in to wipe out the whole squad, assuming they dont make the invul save.

OR we could not stand on the MANZ toes and just simply adjust their shooting and price.

Seriously, the obsession with increasing their durability is absurd. You're not going to take them with increased durability because they're not doing damage still. See how that leads to the actual problem?

Another problem we're getting here: deep strike leads to turn 3 charges at the soonest. Durability does not address this at all. When you drop in turn 2, shooting has to matter or they will never be used.

Well, the question is - what is their battlefield role?

Are they supposed to be objective holders? They will need extreme durability and weapons to fend off anything thrown at them, but they won't need a mobility boost.

Are they supposed to be infantry killers? Then they should be all but immune to small arms fire and need lots of midrange dakka to deal with hordes and melee weapons for mixing it up in assaults. They'll need some mobility to hunt down troops.

Are they supposed to be tank killers? Then they need to be able to deal with being hit with AP 2 effectively and have access to a range of heavy-duty weapons (perhaps options beyond those currently modelled, like access to Plasma, Melta, Las and anti-tank Cyclone launchers). They may need a mobility boost based on the range of their weaponry, and could drop access to always included melee weapons (aka, Power Fists).

Right now, they're schitzophrenic, trying to be pinch hitters or objective takers but not really excelling at dealing with any particular situation well.

Formosa seems to be shifting them towards melee assault against mobs or elite infantry. BackspaceHacker seems to be advocating them as anti-horde troops. Personally, I'd like to see them kitted out as infantry killers, with options to make them into tank hunters.

Their battlefield role is basically dictated by the storm bolter, which right now, sucks out loud. The power fists on a slow, predictable unit are NOT useful. Yeah, they're schitzophrenic, but they are good at NONE of the roles. No one takes tac marines for the bolters, they take them for the grav cannon and obj sec and to power the Gladius. Terminators are like super tac marines, so they are an amped up version of a failed concept.

What are MANZ?

Mega Nobz - the Orky TEQ unit. (And the only non-Terminator that's really a TEQ in the original sense)

Broadsides are basically teqs, though as well. It's interesting. Broadsides lose a powerfist, stormbolter, ATSKNF and pick up a wound and HYMP for extra cost.

Martel732 wrote:
Broadsides are basically teqs, though as well. It's interesting. Broadsides lose a powerfist, stormbolter, ATSKNF and pick up a wound and HYMP for extra cost.

I'd equate Broadsides more akin to Dreadnoughts, not Terminators personally. I would ascribe Crisis Suits being more akin to Terminators.

Broadsides and Crisis Suits straddle the TEQ line: Crisis are closer by role, Broadsides by statline.

Wraithguard are kinda, substituting T6 for Sv 2+, and Tyranid Warriors too, subbing in W3 for Sv 2+, but they're the weird nontraditional types.

Speaking of other races, I'm not sure what would equate to Tyranid versions of Terminators - Warriors are too fragile and Carnifexs seem to equate more to Dreadnoughts - I guess Tyrant Guard?

Eldar have their wraith constructs - do Dark Eldar have any TEQs?

 Stormonu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Broadsides are basically teqs, though as well. It's interesting. Broadsides lose a powerfist, stormbolter, ATSKNF and pick up a wound and HYMP for extra cost.

I'd equate Broadsides more akin to Dreadnoughts, not Terminators personally. I would ascribe Crisis Suits being more akin to Terminators.

Broadsides aren't vehicles, they can't be a dreadnought equivalent.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That makes them too much better than MANZ. You can't propose this without adjusting a bunch of other models.

This addresses one aspect: sub S8 fire vulnerability. This is the exact reason many people favor MANZ over terminators, actually. And you are taking it away.

At this point, I'm just representing Ork players because I've seen these exact discussions before. And they weren't as nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
you can

"terminator teleporter"

Terminators have the deep strike rule, in addition due to the blinding light and concussive burst of the terminators arrival via deep strike, they are not subject to the interceptor rule or any similar rules.

So they shoot you on their real turn? So much better. Because everyone is so terrified of terminator shooting ability.

yep, no interceptor though, and that was the point being made, that you cant make interceptor immunity without making termies OP

Okay I should have been more general, then. Ion accelerator to the face in any form.

then ill fix that too

WS 5
BS 5
S 4
T 6
W 1
I 4
A 3
LD 9
SV 2+/4++
Terminator teleporter: on the turn the unit arrives, you may only fire snap shots at it.
Terminator Storm Bolter: str4 ap5 assault 4 "mass reactive" when rolling to would with Terminator storm bolters, a roll of a 6+ to wound causes an automatic wound at AP2
Terminator power fist: str x2 ap2 "lumbering strike" -1 to terminator I when in combat.
Terminator Assault cannon: str 6 ap4 assault 6 rending
Terminator Heavy Flamer: str5 ap4 torrent
Terminator Multi melta:

30pts per model

Terminator armour: 40pts for a character +2 to toughness, 2+/4++

Not even slightly OP these days, can shoot like a boss, can tank small arms quite well and plasma, now become a real viable alternative to sternguard etc., also now competes with bike lords/chapter masters

Or even take a look at my suggestion making them 200 points for 5 bare bones, with 2 wounds each would work.

That won't fix it, terminators will still suck, but suck for a little longer on the tt, what I propose is a lot more radical, but WOULD make them viable, people would take them, as they would eat through infantry as they are supposed to, the change to the fist would also buff them slightly in cc, t6 terminators would also gain a partial immunity to small arms and high str weapons, lastly the teleport change would give them a much needed boost in the turn they drop.

All in all what I propose is making terminators fit the roll they are supposed to have, very resilient shock troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:
Well, the question is - what is their battlefield role?

Are they supposed to be objective holders? They will need extreme durability and weapons to fend off anything thrown at them, but they won't need a mobility boost.

Are they supposed to be infantry killers? Then they should be all but immune to small arms fire and need lots of midrange dakka to deal with hordes and melee weapons for mixing it up in assaults. They'll need some mobility to hunt down troops.

Are they supposed to be tank killers? Then they need to be able to deal with being hit with AP 2 effectively and have access to a range of heavy-duty weapons (perhaps options beyond those currently modelled, like access to Plasma, Melta, Las and anti-tank Cyclone launchers). They may need a mobility boost based on the range of their weaponry, and could drop access to always included melee weapons (aka, Power Fists).

Right now, they're schitzophrenic, trying to be pinch hitters or objective takers but not really excelling at dealing with any particular situation well.

Formosa seems to be shifting them towards melee assault against mobs or elite infantry. BackspaceHacker seems to be advocating them as anti-horde troops. Personally, I'd like to see them kitted out as infantry killers, with options to make them into tank hunters.

Assault 4 pseudo rending and assault 6 assault cannons is my proposal, i3 power fists is to better represent the fluff of them wading through units of chaff.

I want terminators to be a terror on the battlefield

 Stormonu wrote:
Well, the question is - what is their battlefield role?

Are they supposed to be objective holders? They will need extreme durability and weapons to fend off anything thrown at them, but they won't need a mobility boost.

Are they supposed to be infantry killers? Then they should be all but immune to small arms fire and need lots of midrange dakka to deal with hordes and melee weapons for mixing it up in assaults. They'll need some mobility to hunt down troops.

Are they supposed to be tank killers? Then they need to be able to deal with being hit with AP 2 effectively and have access to a range of heavy-duty weapons (perhaps options beyond those currently modelled, like access to Plasma, Melta, Las and anti-tank Cyclone launchers). They may need a mobility boost based on the range of their weaponry, and could drop access to always included melee weapons (aka, Power Fists).

Right now, they're schitzophrenic, trying to be pinch hitters or objective takers but not really excelling at dealing with any particular situation well.

Formosa seems to be shifting them towards melee assault against mobs or elite infantry. BackspaceHacker seems to be advocating them as anti-horde troops. Personally, I'd like to see them kitted out as infantry killers, with options to make them into tank hunters.

Their role is to be shocked troops, represented by the fact they can deep strike and that they can supposedly take a Land Raider and make it somewhere. Hence why my proposal is to straight up make them offensive machines.

 Stormonu wrote:
Speaking of other races, I'm not sure what would equate to Tyranid versions of Terminators - Warriors are too fragile and Carnifexs seem to equate more to Dreadnoughts - I guess Tyrant Guard?

Eldar have their wraith constructs - do Dark Eldar have any TEQs?

Tyranid Warriors are the equivalent in theory if not in practice. The Craftworld equivalent is Wraithguard, the DE equivalent in size are Grotesques and in combat role it's probably Incubi.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
...then ill fix that too

WS 5
BS 5
S 4
T 6
W 1
I 4
A 3
LD 9
SV 2+/4++
Terminator teleporter: on the turn the unit arrives, you may only fire snap shots at it.
Terminator Storm Bolter: str4 ap5 assault 4 "mass reactive" when rolling to would with Terminator storm bolters, a roll of a 6+ to wound causes an automatic wound at AP2
Terminator power fist: str x2 ap2 "lumbering strike" -1 to terminator I when in combat.
Terminator Assault cannon: str 6 ap4 assault 6 rending
Terminator Heavy Flamer: str5 ap4 torrent
Terminator Multi melta:

30pts per model

Terminator armour: 40pts for a character +2 to toughness, 2+/4++

Not even slightly OP these days, can shoot like a boss, can tank small arms quite well and plasma, now become a real viable alternative to sternguard etc., also now competes with bike lords/chapter masters

...'Cheaper and better Dreadknight' could be read as 'slightly OP', actually...

Dreadknights have 4 wounds, these have 1, Dreadknights are still more survivable, faster and a mc with all the advantages that entails, plus they strike at I with a force weapon and ap2....

Sorry, these are not "better" just different, also, imagine paladins with this change, suddenly become a terrifying prospect on the table don't they, as opposed to "ok"
Deathwing would become very good, th/S's termies a nightmare to behold.

Im not saying my idea couldn't use refinement, but I'll be frank, it's a damn site better than any of the other proposed rules, which are just band aids for a terrible unit, which is indicative of the rules proposal community at large, far too conservative, i see so many chaos, nid and Ork rewrites that just try to band aid gw awful writing, where a complete re work is needed, from the ground up.

So please rip apart my idea, break it down so it's workable, adjust it, whatever, just don't be hide bound by the awful adherence to the current terminator unit, as it is a 3Rd ed unit, using 3Rd ed balancing in 7th, it's out of date and doesn't work anymore.

 Formosa wrote:
Dreadknights have 4 wounds, these have 1, Dreadknights are still more survivable, faster and a mc with all the advantages that entails, plus they strike at I with a force weapon and ap2....

Sorry, these are not "better" just different, also, imagine paladins with this change, suddenly become a terrifying prospect on the table don't they, as opposed to "ok"
Deathwing would become very good, th/S's termies a nightmare to behold.

Im not saying my idea couldn't use refinement, but I'll be frank, it's a damn site better than any of the other proposed rules, which are just band aids for a terrible unit, which is indicative of the rules proposal community at large, far too conservative, i see so many chaos, nid and Ork rewrites that just try to band aid gw awful writing, where a complete re work is needed, from the ground up.

So please rip apart my idea, break it down so it's workable, adjust it, whatever, just don't be hide bound by the awful adherence to the current terminator unit, as it is a 3Rd ed unit, using 3Rd ed balancing in 7th, it's out of date and doesn't work anymore.

150pts for 5 T6 wounds with a 2+/4++ save, who have pseudo-Invisibility the turn they arrive from Deep Strike, start with twenty BS5 shuriken catapult shots, and hit with fifteen S8/AP2 attacks at I3 in melee.

By comparison a Dreadknight is 130pts for 4 T6 wounds with a 2+/5++ save, starts with no shooting, and hits with four S10/AP2 attacks at I4 in melee.

Your unit is tougher (one more wound, can't be IDed or lose multiple wounds to a D weapon) and has 5x the melee output against anything that isn't a Gargantuan Creature. If you're holding the gun prices constant you're also paying about half what the Dreadknight is for the same guns with -1S and +1BS on top of your ten free BS5 shuriken catapults. On top of that you've got pseudo-Invisibility for free the turn you land from Deep Strike.

You hit harder for cheaper and get more firepower. The only things the Dreadknight can get over you are Move Through Cover from the MC type and the personal teleporter, which it has to pay an extra thirty points for and which you wouldn't really care about having (given that your unit uses Deep Strike to engage in the first place, doesn't care about picking its melee fights since it'll win all of them, and can engage a lot more effectively at range).

So yes. Your Terminators are dramatically better than an already very good unit. I'd call that OP, personally, but I can go find more math if you want. Any guesses as to how many Codexes in the game can't kill them efficiently? (My guess is 18 to 20 out of 23)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
...a complete re work is needed, from the ground up...

If a complete rework is needed you may want to propose changes to the environment in addition to the one unit. We're all looking at your Terminators and thinking how they'd work in the current game, if you want to explain what you'd do to, say, Monstrous Creatures when T6 is now the province of 40mm-based heavy infantry that might help.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Dreadknights have 4 wounds, these have 1, Dreadknights are still more survivable, faster and a mc with all the advantages that entails, plus they strike at I with a force weapon and ap2....

Sorry, these are not "better" just different, also, imagine paladins with this change, suddenly become a terrifying prospect on the table don't they, as opposed to "ok"
Deathwing would become very good, th/S's termies a nightmare to behold.

Im not saying my idea couldn't use refinement, but I'll be frank, it's a damn site better than any of the other proposed rules, which are just band aids for a terrible unit, which is indicative of the rules proposal community at large, far too conservative, i see so many chaos, nid and Ork rewrites that just try to band aid gw awful writing, where a complete re work is needed, from the ground up.

So please rip apart my idea, break it down so it's workable, adjust it, whatever, just don't be hide bound by the awful adherence to the current terminator unit, as it is a 3Rd ed unit, using 3Rd ed balancing in 7th, it's out of date and doesn't work anymore.

150pts for 5 T6 wounds with a 2+/4++ save, who have pseudo-Invisibility the turn they arrive from Deep Strike, start with twenty BS5 shuriken catapult shots, and hit with fifteen S8/AP2 attacks at I3 in melee.

By comparison a Dreadknight is 130pts for 4 T6 wounds with a 2+/5++ save, starts with no shooting, and hits with four S10/AP2 attacks at I4 in melee.

Your unit is tougher (one more wound, can't be IDed or lose multiple wounds to a D weapon) and has 5x the melee output against anything that isn't a Gargantuan Creature. If you're holding the gun prices constant you're also paying about half what the Dreadknight is for the same guns with -1S and +1BS on top of your ten free BS5 shuriken catapults. On top of that you've got pseudo-Invisibility for free the turn you land from Deep Strike.

You hit harder for cheaper and get more firepower. The only things the Dreadknight can get over you are Move Through Cover from the MC type and the personal teleporter, which it has to pay an extra thirty points for and which you wouldn't really care about having (given that your unit uses Deep Strike to engage in the first place, doesn't care about picking its melee fights since it'll win all of them, and can engage a lot more effectively at range).

So yes. Your Terminators are dramatically better than an already very good unit. I'd call that OP, personally, but I can go find more math if you want. Any guesses as to how many Codexes in the game can't kill them efficiently? (My guess is 18 to 20 out of 23)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
...a complete re work is needed, from the ground up...

If a complete rework is needed you may want to propose changes to the environment in addition to the one unit. We're all looking at your Terminators and thinking how they'd work in the current game, if you want to explain what you'd do to, say, Monstrous Creatures when T6 is now the province of 40mm-based heavy infantry that might help.

You missed in addition to your list
Psyker
Force
Initiative 4 str10 multi attacks
Warp shunt
Concussion attacks

And t6 is only for mc is a 3rd ed throwback, now we have wraithguard and nurgle bikes, mc don't need any help in the modern game, they are good enough, this doesn't change that in the slightest.

I will concede however that I broke a personal rule with this concept, every unit should have a weakness, so I'd change the attacks from 3 to 1, these are tactical terminators, assault terminators would remain 2.

As to your offer of mathematics for this unit, yeah, go ahead, let's see how tough this unit is, I'm want them to shrug off small arms as they should, then do the maths for the storm bolters, let's see if they can mow down infantry like they should.

 Formosa wrote:
...You missed in addition to your list
Psyker
Force
Initiative 4 str10 multi attacks
Warp shunt
Concussion attacks

And t6 is only for mc is a 3rd ed throwback, now we have wraithguard and nurgle bikes, mc don't need any help in the modern game, they are good enough, this doesn't change that in the slightest.

I will concede however that I broke a personal rule with this concept, every unit should have a weakness, so I'd change the attacks from 3 to 1, these are tactical terminators, assault terminators would remain 2.

As to your offer of mathematics for this unit, yeah, go ahead, let's see how tough this unit is, I'm want them to shrug off small arms as they should, then do the maths for the storm bolters, let's see if they can mow down infantry like they should.

Psyker knowing Banishment (the most useless power in the game) and Sanctuary (which brings him to the 4++ you've given your Terminators). S10 and Force don't make up for the attack differential unless you've deleted chainfists and are only looking at attacking massed Carnifexes. Shunt/jump is a 30pt upgrade that, as I believe I've stated, wouldn't add much to your Terminators. And Concussive is the third most useless USR in the game and could be replaced with blank space without changing the unit's performance.

Wraithguard have a 3+ armour save, no invul, no Deep Strike, and have either a gun or a melee weapon, not both. We can add that to the list of units your Terminators are strictly better than (at one Attack your Terminator is an axe/shield Wraithblade with +1S, I3 instead of Unwieldy, pseudo-invis Deep Strike, two 24" range shuriken catapults, +1 WS/BS, and ATSKNF/Chapter Tactics instead of Fearless and Rage, at the same price). Nurgle Bikers are faster, but again they've got a 3+ armour save, no invul, no Deep Strike, and have a twin-linked bolter, at prices in that book they'd also be 51pts with a power fist.

You could do your own math, you know. What I've checked suggests to me that the current Terminators would be more effective and fairer if they were to gain a 4++, two Wounds, and be 30pts with a power weapon with the option to upgrade to a power fist for +5ppm. It'd give you the resistance to small arms without making you the toughest non-vehicle model on the ground for your cost (yes, your Terminators as written take as much effort to remove as a Wraithknight, adjusted for cost), and if we try to counteract size creep instead of supporting it you might find normal storm bolters more useful.

"we try to counteract size creep instead of supporting it you might find normal storm bolters more useful"

There is no hope for the stormbolter.

Martel732 wrote:
"we try to counteract size creep instead of supporting it you might find normal storm bolters more useful"

There is no hope for the stormbolter.

If you can't make Terminators work without making them T6 then no, there isn't.

Personally my favorite buffs I have seen so far bein to let relentless ignore unwieldy or to make them 40 points and give them two wounds.

I like Formosa's proposal, but they are a bit OP. He said it needs refining so here is my refinement:
Same points cost as now.
WS 4
BS 4
S 4
T 5
W 1
1 4
A 2
LD 9
Sv 2+/4++

•Terminator armour makes unwieldy -1 initiative instead of a straight initiative 1 (this way it will work for Space Wolves with axes and also with Thunder hammers).

•All storm bolters in the game become assault 3, with ap3 auto wound when you roll a 6 to wound.


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I don't see why they should be more skilled than vanguard or sternguard vets since they are the same guys wearing different armour on different occasions.


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Ok how's this as an alternative:

•Terminator armour confers 2+/4++. The 2+ can be re-rolled. The 4++ can be re-rolled on a roll of 1. It also makes unwieldy -1 initiative instead of initiative 1.

•Storm bolters have pseudo rending at ap3.

This way we are not altering the statline. They become mostly immune to small arms fire and more durable against heavy weaponry. They can fight better in close combat and become more dangerous to MEQ or lower. Storm bolters should not be able to go through 2+ armour. They are only bolters after all.

Maybe tactical terminators should be able to be equiped like devastators in terms of being able to take a bunch of heavy weapons to improve their ranged fire power as well as a points lowering, again this is something the centurions try to steal away from them but you can give them stuff like autocannons to make them stand out a little more too. Unless I'm remembering wrong I don't think the cents have the option of autocannons.

Kind of feel like a full termie squad with heavy flamers would be like a fluffy boarding party too in some cases.