Abbadon the despoiler or why W40k fanbase is so immature

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Ernestas wrote:
You are grabbing at straws here. Your reasoning process is flawed and you want to create a story rather than to develop it. You have an idea of how you want it to be and you try to look for clues in the lore, anything at all to confirm this instead of looking at the facts and later developing relevant assumptions from it.

If Calgar can kill a Carnifex and Avatar, and Dante can kill a Bloodthirster, then Chapter Master equivalents would be able to kill a Horus clone. Sorry, it simply isn't impressive, nor is Abigail that impressive.

**Azreal13**

Ernestas wrote:
You are grabbing at straws here. Your reasoning process is flawed and you want to create a story rather than to develop it. You have an idea of how you want it to be and you try to look for clues in the lore, anything at all to confirm this instead of looking at the facts and later developing relevant assumptions from it.

You mean the lore that is inherently, and deliberately, contradictory? That lore? The lore that can be used to support a number of perfectly credible interpretations?

Or the lore that you've created and held up as the one lore to rule them all, while simultaneously failing to grasp the inherent irony of criticizing anyone for interpreting a different situation from the same body of information?

40K: "Everything is canon, and nothing is."

**ZebioLizard2**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ernestas wrote:
You are grabbing at straws here. Your reasoning process is flawed and you want to create a story rather than to develop it. You have an idea of how you want it to be and you try to look for clues in the lore, anything at all to confirm this instead of looking at the facts and later developing relevant assumptions from it.

If Calgar can kill a Carnifex and Avatar, and Dante can kill a Bloodthirster, then Chapter Master equivalents would be able to kill a Horus clone. Sorry, it simply isn't impressive, nor is Abigail that impressive.

Avatar's are killed all the time, they are quite literally the punching bags in the lore for if you wanna show someone as strong, and Carnifex aren't exactly the biggest measuring stick.

I mean really, there's only one known instance of a Space Marine killing a Primarch and this is it.

**Ernestas**

No, the problem with is you take flawed example and try to brute force it in order to fit your created image of how primarchs and Emperor are irreplacable and totally unique. After you had been show wrong, you refuse to admit that your point was invalid and now you troll people around. You are arguing about arguing now instead of trying to prove your original point.

Please, get real and make a proper argument with a title (that you claim in one sentence), create a point (make us see why it is logical as it should be) and then, give examples from the lore which would support your point of view.

This is how it looks. Title:
Primarchs are unique demigods who's power is matched only by the Emperor himself and other primarchs.

Argument:
Nobody had ever created Primarchs again in a same manner as Emperor did. All the examples in the past were failures. Nobody had ever killed Primarch in a duel except another Primarch or the Emperor himself.

Example:
Fabius the Bile tried to clone the Primarchs and they all were inferior genetic freaks, mere shadows of that they had been.

See, this is how you create an argument. Now, we had shown you that your base assumption (nobody had ever done this after) was wrong. We also had proven that cloned Horus seemed to be perfect. If you cannot continue debating on this matter by bringing new points, perspectives and arguments then please be a man and admit that you were wrong for once in your life. I'm tired of people always trying to shift talk and look how they could sting others instead of going hard way and actually standing up for that was said.

**Azreal13**

Wow, patronizing, condescending and being wrong, all at once..

Reread my posts. Nobody has proven them "wrong" because there's zero evidence. They were speculative, there is no evidence either supporting nor denying my idea that the Emperor had extra stages to the Primarch creation process that Bile failed to replicate, leading to a genetically perfect, yet still inferior, clone. It was just something I find plausible.

What you've done, as, along with using a generally unpleasant tone, you've done all through the thread is make the assumption that your opinion is somehow the correct one, despite the fact you're arguing (with a straight face, no less) about a fictional universe, based in parody and satire, riddled with inconsistency and acknowledged as being so.

There are no 'facts.' We're one short story, codex or novel away from anything you hold as somehow being incontrovertible being utterly turned on its head.

So my advice is stop taking the whole thing so seriously, perhaps pay more attention to actual history if you're so bent on uncovering the 'truth' and try and be more pleasant.

Now, I'm out before I break rule 1 and tell you what I really think of your manner and get given a Dakka holiday.

**Slayer-Fan123**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ernestas wrote:
You are grabbing at straws here. Your reasoning process is flawed and you want to create a story rather than to develop it. You have an idea of how you want it to be and you try to look for clues in the lore, anything at all to confirm this instead of looking at the facts and later developing relevant assumptions from it.

If Calgar can kill a Carnifex and Avatar, and Dante can kill a Bloodthirster, then Chapter Master equivalents would be able to kill a Horus clone. Sorry, it simply isn't impressive, nor is Abigail that impressive.

Avatar's are killed all the time, they are quite literally the punching bags in the lore for if you wanna show someone as strong, and Carnifex aren't exactly the biggest measuring stick.

I mean really, there's only one known instance of a Space Marine killing a Primarch and this is it.

Horus' are killed all the time they appear just like Avatars and Carnifexes. One being killed by Abigail shows how weak they are.

**Alpharius**

RULE #1 REMINDER - BE POLITE.

As a follow on point - especially when we're all discussing the made up history that makes up the background for our game of toy soldiers, yes?

**Jacksmiles**

Ernestas wrote:
After you had been show wrong,

I haven't seen this happen yet.

If you cannot continue debating on this matter by bringing new points, perspectives and arguments then please be a man and admit that you were wrong for once in your life.

By all means.

**nareik**

Alpharius wrote:
RULE #1 REMINDER - BE POLITE.

As a follow on point - especially when we're all discussing the made up history that makes up the background for our game of toy soldiers, yes?

I thought this was all the prophetic visions of Rick Priestly, future Emperor or someone?

**kronk**

May all your d6's roll Priestly.

Clone Horus was such a chump, the Clone Emperor Palpatine called him a flim-flam man.

**Ernestas**

Well, this thread already run its course and was exhausted. I'm out of it too.

**Plumbumbarum**

Ernestas wrote:
Well, I see this problem and in this community of having attitude ""I do not know, I do not care and I know better''. It is just me taking lore seriously while everybody else is just not giving the gak. This is the problem I have in life generally. Like I just started my master studies with a lot of thought and dedication and I was just shocked that pitiful students my peers are.

Why the mortal concerns though.

Ernestas wrote:
As for Horus and Emperor being demigods, well, I'm not a fan of dragon ball z approach to story telling where Emperor takes two Emperor class titans in each of his hands, start smashing Horus using them as clubs and then heroic titan crew detonates plasma core of the emperor class titan, making them frag grenades for the Emperor. Emperor then throws these titans to Horus, resulting explosion stuns him briefly, enough for the Emperor to fly to orbit, tear lance weaponary from the biggest ship in orbit, power it by its own awesomes and blow the plant with Horus briefely stunned on it.

And while it often not that bad, it is still same principle. Oh, all that stuff who only becomes stronger as their target is stronger? Does not matter, lore will suddenly go into full slow mode and demigod will kick its ass. Like swords ignoring armor, well, Emperor's armor is made up of some never heard, one time use metal. Sword only becomes deadlier as more psychic energy is present? Well, Emperor will use his psychic might to destroy this sword... Yeah, logic. Same with psyker killers, there was some humans during great crusade that could drive Emperor mad just by their near pressense and would just execute unguarded Emperor, mind you, not kill, but execute.

I prefer to use saner approach to power levels and story telling. Horus already killed primarch in melee combat and probably Fulgrim by collatorial damage then his squad was being awesome. But I do realize that this way is not that most people like. I seek for mature story telling, I'm glad that GW also seeks that while most of the fanbase wants to stay in how w40k is being perceived. As silly and over the top sci setting.

The more serious and mature the 40k story gets, the sillier, in a bad way, it actualy becomes. The inherent, underlying absurd of it all becomes more apparent. The suspension of disbelief gets harder to achieve, paradoxicaly. It's so mature, so deep, so multi layered, oh hey look it's orks, waaaaaggh unz ard boyz lad eh?

Really there is plenty of deep, mature sf literature but 40k is not it. It's a series of awesome hardcore bolter porn pictures and grimdarked pulp sf posters tied together with stories ripped of from basicaly everywhere. And then the Orkz, how are you going to keep them and a mature story the same time.

Not to mention, if you limit polysyllabic adjectives in Lovecraft works, you won't make it better - you'll just make it less Lovecraft. Same with 40k, while Rogue Trader was indeed a bit too silly, the new serious approach is silly too and makes 40k less 40k but more a less subtle gothic Dune something something.

**Bobthehero**

You could always bump the Orks out of the setting

*keeps fingers crossed*

**Plumbumbarum**

Yes the serious Warhammer (fantasy or 40k) would require axing a few factions and seriousizing a few others. Or just humans, daemons and chaosified humans.

I would love to see such a spin-off or how you call it. 40k is what it is though, ridiculous space fantasy.

**SNAAAAKE**

Wayniac wrote:
he killed Sigismund, that's not a Primarch but still that dude was a badass.

really, the thing is that Chaos has for a long time BEEN treated like bumbling 80s saturday morning cartoon villains, like your Cobra Commander or Megatron who is built up to be this supreme badass that threatens the world, only to have their crazy schemes (which get crazier) easily thwarted by the good guys time and time again after basically accomplishing nothing.

Remember that one Transformers three parter where Megatron literally teleported Cybertron into Earth's atmosphere? I'd say it came pretty damn close then. Watch Headmasters and both sides take losses. Ultra Magnus VS Soundwave (Soundwave superior, Ultra Magnus inferior, of course), so on so forth. In Victory, Convoy finally cops it as a Powermaster...

It's not all Saturday morning when you do some more reading.