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When you hit with a Strength D weapon, roll on the following table for the effects:

Models With Wounds
1: Nothing.
2-5: 1 Wound (S10 for Instant Death) with no saves of any kind allowed.
6: D3 Wounds (S10 for Instant Death) with no saves of any kind allowed.

Models With Hull Points
1: Nothing.
2-3: 1 Hull Point and a Penetrating Hit with no saves allowed.
4-5: 1 Hull Point and a Penetrating Hit rolled at +1 with no saves allowed.
6: D3 Hull Points and a Penetrating Hit rolled at +2 with no saves allowed.

This makes D a heck of a lot more reliable (no saves EVER) but also makes a 6 not just instant destruction for anything it touches.

Thoughts?

Edit: And I'm thinking about making Stomps just a Strength D hit for anyone affected. Thoughts on that?

Roll it back to 4e D. Auto-wound non-vehicle models with Instant Death regardless of Toughness, auto-pen vehicles with an extra +1 to the vehicle damage table.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Roll it back to 4e D. Auto-wound non-vehicle models with Instant Death regardless of Toughness, auto-pen vehicles with an extra +1 to the vehicle damage table.

Not sure I like that. It's definitely something to consider, but not sure I like it.

Your post did, however, make me realize I forgot to make a Vehicle table! So I'll add that to the OP.

how to fix D in non apocalypse games is ban it

 dabossofdaskullz wrote:
how to fix D in non apocalypse games is ban it

And your response to a 2++ Rerollable Screamer Star is...

Edit: Added a change to Stomps in the OP. Make Stomps a straight-up Strength D hit on everyone affected.

Have to say they don't bother me weight of fire power means they will die, especially if you go first then they die first job done. D is the most broken trash in 40k and doesn't belong in standard games, so unless playing apocalypse it has no place in 40k standard

 dabossofdaskullz wrote:
Have to say they don't bother me weight of fire power means they will die, especially if you go first then they die first job done. D is the most broken trash in 40k and doesn't belong in standard games, so unless playing apocalypse it has no place in 40k standard

So would you still call it broken with my modifications? I like having big stuff in regular games.

 dabossofdaskullz wrote:
Have to say they don't bother me weight of fire power means they will die, especially if you go first then they die first job done. D is the most broken trash in 40k and doesn't belong in standard games, so unless playing apocalypse it has no place in 40k standard

Invisibility may be more broken.

Honestly D isn't that bad unless it comes on a grossly underpriced or spammable platform (Wraithguard, Wraithknights, Hemlocks). As the main gun for a superheavy tank destroyer or as the melee weapon for a Knight it's reasonable.

D is broken full stop. in anything less than apocalype games, here take your 250 point model off (even with your modifications) by my 70point model. yh thanks very much.

How i deal with it is this. if my opponent gets d stuff out i let him set up andthen concede the game and walk off to enjoy my time doing other stuff intead

I like this alternative.

Vs vehicles. Explode result. no saves of any kind possible
Vs infantry 1 instant death wound with no saves of any kind possible

Its simple its clean and it works

it will get rid of all the non appoc stuff it is intended to kill off, and appoc stuff will get seriously damaged.

I just really, really, REALLY hate the "6 means you die" aspect of it. That's the main thing I wanted to fix.

 dabossofdaskullz wrote:
D is broken full stop. in anything less than apocalype games, here take your 250 point model off (even with your modifications) by my 70point model. yh thanks very much.

How i deal with it is this. if my opponent gets d stuff out i let him set up andthen concede the game and walk off to enjoy my time doing other stuff intead

That's just rude. It's fine to not want to play D, but then actually SAY "Hey, I don't want to play against anything with Strength D," rather than waste their time.

 oldzoggy wrote:
I like this alternative.

Roll a d6 do 1 to 6 HP / wounds with no saves of any kind possible.

Its simple its clean and it works

That's still got the issue of 6=death. In fact, it's worse, since few models have more than 4 Wounds or HP, so 50% of the time you're just gibbed.

Ahhh but most things being 2-3 wounds mean a 6 can still out right kill them its only on the big things that it won't


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nope all of our gaming circle do it to the few players who still haven't learnt D doesn't belong in our gaming group

 dabossofdaskullz wrote:
Ahhh but most things being 2-3 wounds mean a 6 can still out right kill them its only on the big things that it won't


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nope all of our gaming circle do it to the few players who still haven't learnt D doesn't belong in our gaming group

Yes, a 6 CAN kill them outright. But it isn't guaranteed to. And something big, like a Knight, WILL survive one D hit, no matter what.

Edit: Just because more people do it doesn't stop it from being rude.

Bringing gak to a gaming group you've been told is not welcome is rude

Wow ninja's posted before my quick edit was done.

 JNAProductions wrote:
And your response to a 2++ Rerollable Screamer Star is....

Not D. Seriously. 2++ rerollable is just a badly written 40k rules mess. D isn't ment to fix that. D is there to prevent clogging up Appoc games and make them feel truely epic.
D is there to Drop your blast and say jup those are all dead. Just remove them they have no chance in hell of surviving being hit by an anti titan weapon.
If you don't want non super heavy or obscure stuff to have this kind of weaponry don't give it to them. There are numerous ways to create good anti 2++ rerollable weapons, that don't insta gib every non super heavy in the game.
Weapons that lower inv saves and or forbid rerolls for example.

 dabossofdaskullz wrote:
D is broken full stop. in anything less than apocalype games, here take your 250 point model off (even with your modifications) by my 70point model. yh thanks very much.

How i deal with it is this. if my opponent gets d stuff out i let him set up andthen concede the game and walk off to enjoy my time doing other stuff intead

Honestly, D is mostly fine. Even on "spammable" platforms like wraithguard. The most likely result of a D weapon that hits is that it will do 1d3 (average 2) wounds/hull points to a thing it hits. Which is mostly fine. I see people proposing boosts to anti-tank weapons that basically do the same thing (inflicting 2 HP or wounds on a penetrating hit). The thing that people usually object to is the 6 result on the D table. Surely you're fine with a 70 point model dealing the killing blow to your 250 point model provided his friends had to whittle your big guy down first. It's just when you get lucky and take out the big guy in one D-strength salvo that it becomes irksome.

And that's really quite easy to fix. Just use something like the ITC's version of the D table where a 6 result is just an automatic 3 wounds/HP with no saves allowed. D weapons remain relatively efficient at killing high-quality/high-cost targets (which is their job), but you don't have to worry about a "crit" making them too good.

I made the 6 count as d3+3 wounds/hullpoints.

Super heavies should survive some of the time. If you have a problem with D killing a 250 point model, stop bringing a 250 point model. Then, they'll stop bringing D. Then bring your model back out. That is how a meta is formed, not bullying people into not using models they paid good money on.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Wow ninja's posted before my quick edit was done.

 JNAProductions wrote:
And your response to a 2++ Rerollable Screamer Star is....

Not D. Seriously. 2++ rerollable is just a badly written 40k rules mess. D isn't ment to fix that. D is there to prevent clogging up Appoc games and make them feel truely epic.
D is there to Drop your blast and say jup those are all dead. Just remove them they have no chance in hell of surviving being hit by an anti titan weapon.
If you don't want non super heavy or obscure stuff to have this kind of weaponry don't give it to them. There are numerous ways to create good anti 2++ rerollable weapons, that don't insta gib every non super heavy in the game.
Weapons that lower inv saves and or forbid rerolls for example.

Like what? Only psychic powers can lower an invulnerable save. Nothing can ignore rerolls, that I know of.

Honestly D isn't that broken, its a response to something that is. It is broken if your opponent is playing a fair game themselves. The quickest fix is this. Talk with your opponent. He's not going to aim to take invisibility, and or buff squads to 2++ rerollable? Fine don't take D.

I can't tell you from experience that 2++ rerollable is the most annoying thing to try to play against. I have never killed a model with it without D or stomp. I have to hope my opponent whiffs his psychic phase or I lose.

mhalko1 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Wow ninja's posted before my quick edit was done.

 JNAProductions wrote:
And your response to a 2++ Rerollable Screamer Star is....

Not D. Seriously. 2++ rerollable is just a badly written 40k rules mess. D isn't ment to fix that. D is there to prevent clogging up Appoc games and make them feel truely epic.
D is there to Drop your blast and say jup those are all dead. Just remove them they have no chance in hell of surviving being hit by an anti titan weapon.
If you don't want non super heavy or obscure stuff to have this kind of weaponry don't give it to them. There are numerous ways to create good anti 2++ rerollable weapons, that don't insta gib every non super heavy in the game.
Weapons that lower inv saves and or forbid rerolls for example.

Like what? Only psychic powers can lower an invulnerable save. Nothing can ignore rerolls, that I know of.

Honestly D isn't that broken, its a response to something that is. It is broken if your opponent is playing a fair game themselves. The quickest fix is this. Talk with your opponent. He's not going to aim to take invisibility, and or buff squads to 2++ rerollable? Fine don't take D.

I can't tell you from experience that 2++ rerollable is the most annoying thing to try to play against. I have never killed a model with it without D or stomp. I have to hope my opponent whiffs his psychic phase or I lose.

Pretty sure he's saying that it would be possible to give weapons those mechanics, not that those mechanics necessarily exist right now.

I agree about D not innately being that bad. Wraith Knights are too expensive for what they get, but that's less to do with D and more to do with their pricing. Meaning we should look at fixing Wraith Knights rather than altering D directly.

Support batteries are cheap, but small blasts are unreliable, and they only have 24" range.

D-scythes strongly discourage charging and hit hard when they get within that 8" template range, but they die the same ways wraith guard do; by either feeding a sacrificial unit to the overwatch and chopping them up, or to quality firepower. Seriously, every wraithguard model you remove from the game is basically a rhino's worth of points going away to a single shot from a plasma gun or lascannon or whatever you're using. A d-scythe toting guy is worth even more points.

And hemlocks are... just not that threatening in general. They're AV 10 and hit less hard than two support batteries. Maybe they get a good couple of shots off, but you can down them very efficiently with anything that can hit flyers, and they don't shoot if they jink.

D-weapons are good against expensive things, but that's kind of their intended role. If you bring a land raider, melta will deal with you effectively. If you bring a swarm of little things, high-volume-of-fire will deal with you effectively. If you bring a massive pile of points in the form of a single model, D weapons are going to be in their element. With the exception of the wraith knight, I feel that all the "common" sources of D have very exploitable weaknesses and generally cost quite a few points.

That said, I repeat my support for the idea that the 6 result on the d-table should be toned down; inflicting d3 wounds/hp and ignoring saves are all well and good. Removing a knight with a single lucky d-cannon shot is a bit much.

Wyldhunt wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Wow ninja's posted before my quick edit was done.

 JNAProductions wrote:
And your response to a 2++ Rerollable Screamer Star is....

Not D. Seriously. 2++ rerollable is just a badly written 40k rules mess. D isn't ment to fix that. D is there to prevent clogging up Appoc games and make them feel truely epic.
D is there to Drop your blast and say jup those are all dead. Just remove them they have no chance in hell of surviving being hit by an anti titan weapon.
If you don't want non super heavy or obscure stuff to have this kind of weaponry don't give it to them. There are numerous ways to create good anti 2++ rerollable weapons, that don't insta gib every non super heavy in the game.
Weapons that lower inv saves and or forbid rerolls for example.

Like what? Only psychic powers can lower an invulnerable save. Nothing can ignore rerolls, that I know of.

Honestly D isn't that broken, its a response to something that is. It is broken if your opponent is playing a fair game themselves. The quickest fix is this. Talk with your opponent. He's not going to aim to take invisibility, and or buff squads to 2++ rerollable? Fine don't take D.

I can't tell you from experience that 2++ rerollable is the most annoying thing to try to play against. I have never killed a model with it without D or stomp. I have to hope my opponent whiffs his psychic phase or I lose.

Pretty sure he's saying that it would be possible to give weapons those mechanics, not that those mechanics necessarily exist right now.

I agree about D not innately being that bad. Wraith Knights are too expensive for what they get, but that's less to do with D and more to do with their pricing. Meaning we should look at fixing Wraith Knights rather than altering D directly.

Support batteries are cheap, but small blasts are unreliable, and they only have 24" range.

D-scythes strongly discourage charging and hit hard when they get within that 8" template range, but they die the same ways wraith guard do; by either feeding a sacrificial unit to the overwatch and chopping them up, or to quality firepower. Seriously, every wraithguard model you remove from the game is basically a rhino's worth of points going away to a single shot from a plasma gun or lascannon or whatever you're using. A d-scythe toting guy is worth even more points.

And hemlocks are... just not that threatening in general. They're AV 10 and hit less hard than two support batteries. Maybe they get a good couple of shots off, but you can down them very efficiently with anything that can hit flyers, and they don't shoot if they jink.

D-weapons are good against expensive things, but that's kind of their intended role. If you bring a land raider, melta will deal with you effectively. If you bring a swarm of little things, high-volume-of-fire will deal with you effectively. If you bring a massive pile of points in the form of a single model, D weapons are going to be in their element. With the exception of the wraith knight, I feel that all the "common" sources of D have very exploitable weaknesses and generally cost quite a few points.

That said, I repeat my support for the idea that the 6 result on the d-table should be toned down; inflicting d3 wounds/hp and ignoring saves are all well and good. Removing a knight with a single lucky d-cannon shot is a bit much.

Couldn't agree more. I'd say the only reason anyone takes a Hemlock is for the ML2 Psyker rolling ing Telepathy and the 12" -2 Leadership bubble (makes Psy-Shriek really nasty) and not for the 18" range Strength D small blasts that are -1 on the D table.

I agree with Lythrandire's idea of nerfing the 6 result on the D table, thats the only thing thats broken and is just far too powerful.

Better idea, remove D weapons from non apoc games(4000+ points per side)

I still am of the mindset that D weapons, super heavy walkers, and GMC have no place in anything below 2.5k games.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Pretty sure he's saying that it would be possible to give weapons those mechanics, not that those mechanics necessarily exist right now.

Jup they aren't here but they should be, and it would not hard to invent some without ruining the game.

And hemlocks are... just not that threatening in general. They're AV 10 and hit less hard than two support batteries. Maybe they get a good couple of shots off, but you can down them very efficiently with anything that can hit flyers, and they don't shoot if they jink.

On this I completely disagree with you, they are nasty. Those fliers should not have acces to D. They should carry some sort of anti re roll lance blast. D isn't suited as a gun on a regular flier. D should be reserved for Orbital strikes, titans, rare warp mishaps and titan killers. Downs in grading D from just remove those models to some sort of complex multi wound thingy is bad for the game. It result in clogged up appoc games, and insane power creep in regular games. Both could be avoided by just leaving D alone and creating an other type of weapon for the cool deadly 40k stuff.

Gonna have to agree hemlocks are stupid, if you bring a flyer or some form of AA they are fine, but if you have nothing to shoot at it, it's broken

 oldzoggy wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Pretty sure he's saying that it would be possible to give weapons those mechanics, not that those mechanics necessarily exist right now.

Jup they aren't here but they should be, and it would not hard to invent some without ruining the game.

And hemlocks are... just not that threatening in general. They're AV 10 and hit less hard than two support batteries. Maybe they get a good couple of shots off, but you can down them very efficiently with anything that can hit flyers, and they don't shoot if they jink.

On this I completely disagree with you, they are nasty. Those fliers should not have acces to D. They should carry some sort of anti re roll lance blast. D isn't suited as a gun on a regular flier. D should be reserved for Orbital strikes, titans, rare warp mishaps and titan killers. Downs in grading D from just remove those models to some sort of complex multi wound thingy is bad for the game. It result in clogged up appoc games, and insane power creep in regular games. Both could be avoided by just leaving D alone and creating an other type of weapon for the cool deadly 40k stuff.

I'd be fine with removing D from non-apoc entirely! But only if we adjusted wraith weapons to be non-D so that Iyanden players are still allowed to play thematic armies at low points.

I'm not sure my suggestion really qualifies as a "complex multi wound thingy." I'm just suggesting you either treat a 2+ on the D table as d3 wounds (basically just removing the 6 result) or have each D wound count as 2 wounds. Possibly with the addition that you ignore saves on a 6. The latter suggestion would literally be explained to an opponent as, "Unsaved wounds count as two wounds or hull points, and you don't get saves if I roll a 6 to-wound or to-pen."

As for strength D being limited to orbital strikes and so forth, well, how does having chunks of your body (or your whole body) shoved into the warp rate? 'Cause I feel like sending Bob's torso and right leg into another dimension is probably going to be pretty traumatic. ;D


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Gonna have to agree hemlocks are stupid, if you bring a flyer or some form of AA they are fine, but if you have nothing to shoot at it, it's broken

I'm not aware of any flyer in the game that is more fragile than the Hemlock Wraithfighter. Are there any 2HP flyers? The lowly bolter has a chance (albeit not a great one) of harming a hemlock. A single assault cannon is more likely to hit at least once than to miss entirely, and each hit from that same assault cannon has a 50% chance to at least glance it. If the hemlock jinks against your shots, it will not be shooting at all on its turn because its weapons are blasts. When it does shoot those small blasts (which people often complain about because of their lack of accuracy and difficulty hitting multiple models), they have a 1/3rd chance of doing absolutely nothing and, because of the -1 on the D table, have no chance at all of rolling the much-maligned 6 result. And you get cover saves against them.

I am very curious to know which part of that you consider "broken".

To be fair, flyers are annoyingly hard to hit in general, but that's another discussion entirely. Between its low AV, high pricetag, and inability to shoot if it jinks, the hemlock is one of the easiest flyers in the game to deal with. It's not underpowered, but it's far from broken.

Yeah on double 6s, the hemlock only needs like 2 good shots which it gets the turn it comes it to blast large chunks outta your army.

It wont matter if you shoot it down at taht point because it earned its points back because it just blasted a command squad off the board, or a squad of devastators.

IMO D is fine, it's the platforms it comes on that are broken.

Seriously, try playing with it sometime. I play an Ordinatus battery in the Heresy with some of the most powerful D-weapons in the game right now...

...and my W/L rate is about 50/50.

Thats Heresy, totally different animal. Heresy you expect things to be a lot more deadly in.

In additions Heresy is a lot more balanced because everyone is playing with the same toys.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Thats Heresy, totally different animal. Heresy you expect things to be a lot more deadly in.

In additions Heresy is a lot more balanced because everyone is playing with the same toys.

You can expect stuff to be deadly in 40k.

Also not everyone has the same tools. No other army has access to my Ordinatus engines, and I would be surprised to learn anyone else on the planet who had an army of three!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What's more, probably only 30 or 40% of my games are against heresy. A majority tend to be against mainstream 40k.

NO stuff is a lot more deadly in 30k games, gak gets blasted off the table left and right lol

but wait are you playing 30k armies vs 40k armies? Huh...never honestly thought you could do that.

Kinda makes me wanna go make a loyalist Luner Wolves army now

Yea you definitely can. The systems are completely compatible and it's fun! Just make sure to talk everything out with your opponent ahead of time - there are as many nasty surprises in the Heresy as there are in 40k.

It's worth noting that I was at Warhammer World yesterday and someone explicitly told me they were intended to be played together, which honestly was a bit shocking straight from the horse's mouth, but it didn't change much! We've been doing that since Book 2 dropped in all of the places I've lived since starting uni.