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Hi all, i'm recently coming back into 40k after leaving it at 5th ed and have noticed one big thing for my space marines.

Grav Weaponry!


I am pretty much a Salamanders player and so have always loved the AP1 goodness of the melta gun but I notice that grav guns are potentially better as they're 18" S* AP2 Salvo 3/5 compared to the melta which is 12" S8 AP1......

The Grav Cannon I feel is too expensive at 35 points so I will take multi-melta for the heavy slot but for the assault slot I feel 3/5 shots would be better than 1?

On a relentless platform, there is no contest.

Grav is too good vs everything to even compare to a meltagun.

Grav, grav, grav, and of course...more grav.

No contest. Devastators should take Grav cannons. Tac squads Melta guns, bikes Grav. Never plasma. Flamers only on assault squads. That's pretty much the order for any SM list, especially the BattleCo. Skyhammer is the only time is take MMeltas, and even then Id do 4 Grav Cannons 4 MM.

Note that grav guns are salvo 2/3, it’s the cannons that are 3/5

I’ll admit to being turned off by the points of the cannons initially. But they’ve won me over for use in tac squads. They are the only heavy weapon that can be fired effectively on the move. That’s a big deal. And while they might be expensive, they excel and putting wounds on things that are both expensive themselves, and otherwise hard for use to deal with.

I still run a full melta tac squad (MM/M, c-melta) but a full grav squad is also seeing the table quite a bit these days.

Grav has basically replaced plasma in my lists. WYSWYG/model restrictions will still see some pop up, but for the most part grav does the job better then plasma.

To be blunt, Grav is bad game design. It destabilizes the internal balance of each codex it is in. It is simply too good for its points and invalidates other options. It is a no brainer.

It is hands down the best option. The only reason to not take it is for fluff reasons, but even Salamanders would abandon their signature weapon for increased fire power.

There is a lot of Grav hype up in here!!! HYYYYPEEE!!

Grav is great, don't get me wrong. But there is a point to bring melta - Super Heavy Vehicles/Walkers. The best way to kill them is Melta, D-weapons, and a crap ton of attacks in melee (while avoiding I1 stomps).

Due to the lack of vehicle use in 40k atm (including SHV), Grav is a great option. However, there is a resurgance of SHW to stomp out stars: Khorne Brass Scorpions, Imperial Knights, etc. (Local Gaming Group, even Nova had more than usual)

Grav is a lot more practical for Take-All-Comers list as their use is a lot more common, but including a few meltas can come in clutch.

This is why i'm taking multi-melta and grav gun. get benefit of best of both!

I'd be inclined to do the opposite: meltaguns and grav-cannons. Multimeltas will have to snap-fire on any unit that's moving, unless they're relentless (so, Land Speeders...) Grav-cannons, OTOH, are the one heavy weapon you can usefully fire on the move.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
To be blunt, Grav is bad game design. It destabilizes the internal balance of each codex it is in. It is simply too good for its points and invalidates other options. It is a no brainer.

It is hands down the best option. The only reason to not take it is for fluff reasons, but even Salamanders would abandon their signature weapon for increased fire power.

Riptide and Dreadnkight were the original sin, though. Grav is necessary to harm these units, and even then, can still fail due to saves and sometimes layered saves.

Everyone is forgetting one niche for plasma: demons.

Martel732 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
To be blunt, Grav is bad game design. It destabilizes the internal balance of each codex it is in. It is simply too good for its points and invalidates other options. It is a no brainer.

It is hands down the best option. The only reason to not take it is for fluff reasons, but even Salamanders would abandon their signature weapon for increased fire power.

Riptide and Dreadnkight were the original sin, though. Grav is necessary to harm these units, and even then, can still fail due to saves and sometimes layered saves.

Everyone is forgetting one niche for plasma: demons.

Plasma has a few other niches.

On non relentless units on the move, it’s better in a number of range bands, and depending on the T/Sv. of a target, there are some places it does better there as well. Also very light vehicles. It’s also a little bit more consistent. While grav’s to-wound roll is variable, plasma wounds everything from a grot up to some mid/large monsters on a 2+. Only at T6 and above does it start to lag, and depending on the armor save, grav might not be doing any better there.

Are these reasons to take it? Not really. Grav is better in more situations, against more targets. But plasma is not useless, just overshadowed. And the things grav is not good vs, we can probably just drown in bolter fire anyway.

Assuming your list bothers with bolters. I minimize those wretched things at all costs.

Martel732 wrote:
Assuming your list bothers with bolters. I minimize those wretched things at all costs.

True, but how low can you go? The damn things are everywhere!

Particularly the most popular place for grav: bikes. If up against green tide/demons/whatever, just use the TL’d bolters you get for free with the ride.

Or any place grav cannons get spammed. Hurricanes in the cents, or if packing them in a tac squad to fill the CAD tax, basic bolter boys.

Worst case scenario, everyone has a sidearm.

Bolters don't work too well vs greater demons, though. Those guys have it made all around; immune to small arms, immune to grav. You can't punch them to death unless you are TWC.

 Nevelon wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
To be blunt, Grav is bad game design. It destabilizes the internal balance of each codex it is in. It is simply too good for its points and invalidates other options. It is a no brainer.

It is hands down the best option. The only reason to not take it is for fluff reasons, but even Salamanders would abandon their signature weapon for increased fire power.

Riptide and Dreadnkight were the original sin, though. Grav is necessary to harm these units, and even then, can still fail due to saves and sometimes layered saves.

Everyone is forgetting one niche for plasma: demons.

Plasma has a few other niches.

On non relentless units on the move, it’s better in a number of range bands, and depending on the T/Sv. of a target, there are some places it does better there as well. Also very light vehicles. It’s also a little bit more consistent. While grav’s to-wound roll is variable, plasma wounds everything from a grot up to some mid/large monsters on a 2+. Only at T6 and above does it start to lag, and depending on the armor save, grav might not be doing any better there.

Are these reasons to take it? Not really. Grav is better in more situations, against more targets. But plasma is not useless, just overshadowed. And the things grav is not good vs, we can probably just drown in bolter fire anyway.

There exists something need special ammo Sternguard to deal with. Which are not only Greater Daemons, but also 15 Nurgle Spawns. Which is the ban of space marines.

Grav is good vs most things, but there are some exceptions, like the aforementioned Daemons, as well as Grotesques, which brings a smile to my face whenever grav is shot at them.

I sometimes find sternguard disappointing against MEQs, but they fill a nice hole vs tough, low save units or similiar and monstrous creatures who don't have a good save. The poison 2+ fills a nice hole.

Grav cannons are great in general. Melta still fills a gap when you run into a knight or similiar!

Take grav on whatever you can that can be put on relentless platforms, anything that grav is not effective against gets murdered by bolters. It is quite frankly the most powerful mechanic right now with the ability to drop it in via skyhammers and scout it up on bike armies.

The new genestealer cult maybe leads to less grav in the meta

Ragnar69 wrote:
The new genestealer cult maybe leads to less grav in the meta

Not really. All the good grav platforms also have bolters so can just shoot those instead.

Thats why Grav-cents are sooo good. They have twin linked hurricane bolters for when they are dealing with flimsy hordes.

Oh yes, please keep taking Grav Weaponry.

Love,
Daemon players everywhere.

I think Salamanders Melta trumps grav. If there's an option between the two, I'd take the Melta.

 sfshilo wrote:
Oh yes, please keep taking Grav Weaponry.

Love,
Daemon players everywhere.

Quoted for truth.

Melta scares most Daemons more since it wounds the big stuff on 2+ and insta-kills the multi-wound little stuff

-

 Jimsolo wrote:
I think Salamanders Melta trumps grav. If there's an option between the two, I'd take the Melta.

That's ONLY if you take Vulkan though, and he isn't exactly the hardest character to kill (which means an easier than usual Slay the Warlord). Plus if you MC a Combi-Grav, you'll most likely land all three shots instead of just two.

Martel732 wrote:
Assuming your list bothers with bolters. I minimize those wretched things at all costs.

Welp, if bolters are so bad, I'll have to make do with these lasguns....

I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.

Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?

 KommissarKiln wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Assuming your list bothers with bolters. I minimize those wretched things at all costs.

Welp, if bolters are so bad, I'll have to make do with these lasguns....

I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.

Lasguns can be made very effective with misfortune. Bolters can't.

Everyone, please remember, and quote for truth...

Blood Angels are the worst evaaah. Riptides / whatever else is remotely good is the bane of game balance, and as such Grav is not OP. It is a necessity. Bolter Marines are just extra wounds, and everything else is better than a Marine with a bolter, in every way, ever. Ummm.... and only ever take one Power Fist per 5 Death Company, regardless of the relevance of mentioning that.

In this way, you can avoid summoning He-That-Repeats-The-Same-Four-Points in every post, regardless of how unrelated the thread may be. Every time. Every thread.


To the OP, in general any relentless platform will do wonderfully with a Grav-based weapon. Multi-meltas are seldom great as one-shot weapons just don't kill vehicles as reliably as they used to. Big clusters of Melta-guns can do well, but are still unreliable vs the toughest of targets. They can kill a big bad vehicle in one go... but don't count on it.

I love the idea of Salamanders, but even after taking Vulkan they've never been able to do as well as Ultramarines, in my experience.

I'm serious. Every. Single. Thread.

4 Meltas in Melta Range have about a 45% chance of blowing up a Land Raider.

 JNAProductions wrote:
4 Meltas in Melta Range have about a 45% chance of blowing up a Land Raider.

By marine counts thats 70+40=110points. Two grav-cannons with a cherubim will pump (24+70+5=99pts) 10 shots, hit 9 times and average 2.7 immobilized results meaning they too have a solid chance of wrecking the landraider all while providing anti-horde (50% of killing 5+ saves, and stripping a good couple of wounds even against 6+ saves) and elite (ignoring armor saves AND getting volume shots) while boasting twice the ran