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Ok, disclaimer first: I enjoy the series. There. I said it. I like the fact that it's a timeframe that is past the "epic" scale of the Heresy and introduces some of the things we take for granted in the 40k environment (The Deathwatch, the rise of the Ecclesiarchy, the Inquisition, etc...)

BUT!

There are giant (I mean Grand Canyon size) holes in the plot. I need help from you guys to give a plausible explanation for them:

1) the Imperial Fists are gone... WHERE, IN THE EMPEROR'S NAME, IS PHALANX??? Who was manning the station, if not Imperial Fists? Why is there NO word of rebuilding the chapter?

2) a living loyal primarch is discovered, how is this not a more significant moment? How does Vulkan get away without seeing any of his own warriors? How do his warriors not rush to meet him? Hasn't he been missing for a rather long time by now?

3) how is Terra this defenseless??? While I understand that the 3rd and consequent foundings have not happened yet, where are the other space marines?

Anyway, I'm a fairly lenient reader with 40k in general but while I'm enjoying this series those gaping holes make me cringe quite a bit... Help me out.

1. 99.5% of the crew of Astartes vessels are chapter serfs or other forms of bonded humans. Vangorich was very precise in saying that there were no more Astartes left on the Phalanx. That doesn't mean it doesn't still have its human crew.

2. Vulkan purposefully wanted to remain as inconspicuous as a primarch can be. He refused to even let his own chapter know he was found, or if they did know, he refused to see them. They are not his legion anymore. Clearly something has changed between them.

3. Technically, up to the 5th founding has already happened. The vast majority of chapters operate outside of the Segmentum Solar, meaning they're months of travel away, assuming they're not dealing with their own Ork problems, which they are. As for Terra, it's pretty clear from the wonderful portrayal of the High Lords that the idea of a "war on Terra" was a literal impossibility for them. As far as they're concerned, the Imperium has had over 750 years of peace and prosperity. They know feth all about what's going on in the rest of Segmentum Solar, let alone the other Segmentums.

I think jareddm did a pretty good job of explaining the plot holes, but I'd like to add a bit more. The Salamanders did know about Vulkan, but he specifically refuses to meet them even after they requested to meet Vulkan.

As for rebuilding the Imperial Fists, it's not like Koorland can just push a button and have hundreds of marines clad in yellow show up. He's literally the last Imperial Fist. Everyone, including the guards on Terra and Phalanx, deployed together, and only Koorland made it out alive, and now the Imperium is in a war they can't afford to lose. As far as anyone knows, there might not even be a tomorrow for humanity, so rebuilding a chapter, a process that would take decades if not centuries, is the last thing on anyone's mind.

WHERE, IN THE EMPEROR'S NAME, IS PHALANX???

It's still there. One thing which has been mentioned in a few more recent sources (like sentinals of terra, which I'm not a fan of) is that it's not so spaceworthy any more.

Given what I assume it spent the siege of terra during the horus heresy doing, it might well require a full millennium in the dry-dock....

how is Terra this defenseless??? While I understand that the 3rd and consequent foundings have not happened yet, where are the other space marines?

If an attack moon had been spotted heading towards terra, and could be intercepted somewhere, the astartes would no doubt have mustered to do so. However, what actually happened was a moment of "holy !!!!!!!!" as one just spontaneously appeared.

Given that the High Lords were so scared they practically wanted the Last Wall to stand down and avoid engaging, they weren't going to send out a general distress message to call in anyone else.

I have a theory for the regeneration of the Imperial fists. So we already see that various chapters who have descended from Imperial Fists have donned the yellow colours to keep up an image. At first quite reluctant, they seem quite comfortable at this point. Perhaps when this war is ended more warriors of Dorn will don the old colours, bolstering the ranks to a size large enough to replenish their numbers. Combine their geneseed with what stores are left for the Imperial Fists and a resurrection of their line should be plausible.

Given that the Fists Exemplar are a second founding chapter that we've never heard mentioned in the 41st millenium, and have (since the other second founding chapters are all known entities) therefore been carefully airbrushed out of history, I think they'll just be quietly told that "you lot are now the Imperial Fists, as far as anyone is concerned you have always been the Imperial Fists. Clear?"

Just one word: Exemplar. Curiously a second found chapter that isn't mentioned anywhere else... just add the facts.

locarno24 wrote:
Given that the Fists Exemplar are a second founding chapter that we've never heard mentioned in the 41st millenium, and have (since the other second founding chapters are all known entities) therefore been carefully airbrushed out of history, I think they'll just be quietly told that "you lot are now the Imperial Fists, as far as anyone is concerned you have always been the Imperial Fists. Clear?"

What a twist! It's like the original ending to Terminator Salvation where the Mary Sue character the audience didn't like was supposed to take the place of the beloved character that the audience had started to hate. How did that work out, again?

I'm saying I agree that it sounds like something BL would do.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Given that the Fists Exemplar are a second founding chapter that we've never heard mentioned in the 41st millenium, and have (since the other second founding chapters are all known entities) therefore been carefully airbrushed out of history, I think they'll just be quietly told that "you lot are now the Imperial Fists, as far as anyone is concerned you have always been the Imperial Fists. Clear?"

T
What a twist! It's like the original ending to Terminator Salvation where the Mary Sue character the audience didn't like was supposed to take the place of the beloved character that the audience had started to hate. How did that work out, again?

I'm saying I agree that it sounds like something BL would do.

Honestly all that issue with vol 10 is due to them bloating their page count and thus reaching the 12 novulz! So it takes 10 novels to solve a sixth of the problem and they want to resolve the 83 percent remaining in a single volume... fething rushed I say.

Well, to answer those questions:

1. Phalanx is operational, and is used in final assault on Beast's forces
In the end, ALL of Imperial Fist chapters dies off, then Fists exemplar (their remaining part, without ones gone traitor) become Imperial Fists (with some companies of other Second Founding chapters, like Excruciators and Black Templars) mixed in
2. Vulcan himself did not want to meet with Salamanders. Then, after several millenia, this return of his was lost to the mists of time as well
3. Terra was stripped of defences when forces stationed there were sent to engage other ork battle moons in Segmentum; later on forces were recalled back

Survivor19 wrote:
Well, to answer those questions:

1. Phalanx is operational, and is used in final assault on Beast's forces
In the end, ALL of Imperial Fist chapters dies off, then Fists exemplar (their remaining part, without ones gone traitor) become Imperial Fists (with some companies of other Second Founding chapters, like Excruciators and Black Templars) mixed in
2. Vulcan himself did not want to meet with Salamanders. Then, after several millenia, this return of his was lost to the mists of time as well
3. Terra was stripped of defences when forces stationed there were sent to engage other ork battle moons in Segmentum; later on forces were recalled back

As much as I like "The Beast..." series, I do think that they should've explained why Vulkan did not wanted to see his sons. Perhaps they're waiting for some future HH book or even the Scouring series to explain this, but as of now... it's just weird.

While we're at it, why didn't the Phalanx defended Terra or even fought at the Chrome's homeworld, when the Orks striked for the first time? The whole IF chapter fought there, but why without their main star fortress?

Last questions are easily answered: at first, there was no percieved need to move Phalanx (after all, Chromes are handily dealt with using bolter & blade), then there was no one to authorise its move.
When orks came to Solar system, Phalanx was basically unstuffed and thus not usable. Or it wasn't even there - in fact, it probably wasn't; it would be listed as being in-system otherwise.

I guess they picked the Phalanx up when they went back to Inwit.
As for there not being any Fists left.
Well I like to think they forgot about the non combatants that were guiding the next intake through. You know, the one limbed Priests in their Hawkins carts doing the indoctrination. The Apothecaries doing the implanting. The scout Sergeants doing the training. Not enough to recreate the chapter, but there should be a few. They just want them to be more like yellow Ultramarines, I guess.
The BA, DA, SW, Sallies and a few others, all sent companies. But all those werent equal to having 1000 fake Fists.

1) It's mentioned in the first book that The Phalanx was emptied of Imperial Fists at Inwit for the campaign at Ardamantua

2) It's significant, but over quickly as Vulkan disappears on Ullanor.

3) Because the Imperium was arrogant and believed that its enemies were crushed. The Imperium of 544.M32 is not the Imperium of 999.M41, it was not besieged by enemies on all fronts and things were relatively peaceful

While I very much enjoyed the series, I kind of felt that much of the events of book 10 and 11 could have been condensed into one volume. Splitting it into two tomes definitely made the finale of tome 11 seem rushed and the final battle very much anti-climatic, particularly in regards to the end of book 10 (which the two could easily have been combined into one scene, adding to the sense of bifurcation).

@Agiel: I don't know if I can say I 'liked' it, but I will agree to similar sentiments regarding the series' conclusion feeling like it 'dragged on' through too many books.

In particular I became very bored with three separate climatic invasions of Ullanor.

 Anemone wrote:
@Agiel: I don't know if I can say I 'liked' it, but I will agree to similar sentiments regarding the series' conclusion feeling like it 'dragged on' through too many books.

In particular I became very bored with three separate climatic invasions of Ullanor.

I seriously can't believe they thought: Hey we will use the same plot and conflict THRICE! AND PEOPLE WILL LOVE IT!

Yeah it really was...boring.

And it made the final fight incredibly lackluster to me. I mean I didn't like what was done with Vulkan or the Beast (they felt like Anime characters to me) but its hard for me to care about Thane and the others fighting the Beast when I've already seen the Beast tank and beat what he has. It kinda shows too since the last fight is written really anti-climatically, it even uses the words 'and then the Beast...just died' as if its unaware how much of a let down the finale was.

Also the whole 'Prime-Orks' concept went nowhere (I didn't like the concept, but still, if you're going to introduce it use it). We pretty much found out they exist...and then they all died really quickly in the background. I actually thought they were going to survive to set out Fluff about the Clans in the future.

It just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth because the end of the Series makes the Orks look easy to beat. Why doesn't the Imperium just repeat the process with other Blanks now? I mean its an enormous weakness they have which renders them easy to defeat against any species who can harness Nulls. Why not just take some Wierdboyz with Culexis and kill Ghazghkull? Please kill Ghazghkull already!

As someone who likes the Orks I was kinda disappointed.

EDIT: And the GOFFS! Urgh! We get it GW, Goffs are cool, must they really always be the best Orks at everything? Poor other Clans.

 Anemone wrote:
Yeah it really was...boring.

And it made the final fight incredibly lackluster to me. I mean I didn't like what was done with Vulkan or the Beast (they felt like Anime characters to me) but its hard for me to care about Thane and the others fighting the Beast when I've already seen the Beast tank and beat what he has. It kinda shows too since the last fight is written really anti-climatically, it even uses the words 'and then the Beast...just died' as if its unaware how much of a let down the finale was.

Also the whole 'Prime-Orks' concept went nowhere (I didn't like the concept, but still, if you're going to introduce it use it). We pretty much found out they exist...and then they all died really quickly in the background. I actually thought they were going to survive to set out Fluff about the Clans in the future.

It just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth because the end of the Series makes the Orks look easy to beat. Why doesn't the Imperium just repeat the process with other Blanks now? I mean its an enormous weakness they have which renders them easy to defeat against any species who can harness Nulls. Why not just take some Wierdboyz with Culexis and kill Ghazghkull? Please kill Ghazghkull already!

As someone who likes the Orks I was kinda disappointed.

EDIT: And the GOFFS! Urgh! We get it GW, Goffs are cool, must they really always be the best Orks at everything? Poor other Clans.

Amen, the prime-orks was just a lazy way to bloat the page counts and make it to twelve novels. Thing is, they wrote themselves into a corner and ruined the story's pacing.

I have to admit, I really liked 10, but I felt like 11 took a lot of what was good about 10 and just ruined it.

I felt like Last Son of Dorn had a really good grasp on the characters and their personalities, and while it did return to Ullanor, the invasion was much different, making use of what the Imperium had learned about ork psykers and what Koorland had learned from Vangorich with the Deathwatch.

Then Shadow of Ullanor just took that and threw them all back into the meatgrinder and used the exact same tactics but hey, this time, they worked! The characters didn't seem consistent, the plot seemed to ignore all the development that had gone before, and it took all the interesting developments and ignored them.

Our forces are decimated, and we cannot muster another massive invasion. We've learned the pinpoint tactical strikes of the Assassins and applied them to the Deathwatch. So let's crash a massive asteroid and invade in bulk again!

Last time, the psyker didn't kill enough orks--so let's get another and do it all over again!

UGH.

I hated that Koorland was killed in #10, but I had really high hopes for #11. I thought that perhaps they were going to bring him back in a dreadnought, and use the remaining geneseed in his chest to start rebuilding the Fists (which would explain why they lost some of their SM organs, from his radiation damage and battle injuries). He was just a well-developed character and Thane (while not bad at all) was just so secondary to him. Koorland was developed over so many books as growing into a leadership role, taking the reigns of power despite his own hesitations, etc. Then the guy next to him is suddenly in charge. UGH.

I thought that the discovery of the 'Prime-Orks' (which sounds silly, but I love the clans) was going to be the key to defeating the Orks, not just rinsing and repeating a failed tactic. Since the weirdboy 'eadbang didn't work too well in #10, I figured that the Fists (or Vangorich, or someone), was going to realize that POLITICS was the key to defeating the orks. Using the Deathwatch in covert operations, I thought they were going to work to set the clans against each other, justas the Imperium was weakened with infighting.

Vangorich seems to have suddenly taken a massive heel-turn, rather than having the likable Master of Assassins we have seen in the novels plausibly develop into the madman of the Beheading.

And the whole diminishment of the Ecclesiarchy which was a cool and surprising development in #10 seems to be relegated to an afterthought in #11.


There were some things I didn't like in the previous novels (most notably, what I felt was a VERY unsatisfying portrayal of Vulkan by Gav), but #11 is the real stinker, in my opinion. Such a shame.

For my headcannon, shadow of Ullanor never happened. The prime-orks died to a man alongside with Koorland.

Lord Kragan wrote:
For my headcannon, shadow of Ullanor never happened. The prime-orks died to a man alongside with Koorland.

Agreed this would have been a better ending a keep me of Samson bringing the pillars down ending. Can't really work out the need for the second battle.

Having said that I'm not a great battle fan generally they have their place and are obviously a huge part of the wider hobby and the universe we all love but when it goes on and on and on .... and on it bores me rigid. The beast series worked so well for me as it went beyond the games, the marines and battles to the beating heart of the imperium. The funny bits in the canon are slightly annoying but more than made up for I thought by the characters we were introduced to and story told.