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The big difference in my eyes is that the strong AoS lists don't make me want to quit playing the game like 40k ones do (deathstars, Eldar, double Stormsurge +RipWing Tau, etc). There are plenty of matchups that are tilted to one side or the other, but none that are fully one sided imo.

I agree, part of why I'm fully on board with AOS and don't want to bother with 40k, but might dabble in 30k because it seems better balanced.

A very optized tournament army is going to mop the floor with any opponent short of that, but from what I've seen such armies aren't common yet. I suspect as things go on they'll show up in increasing number since people will have had more time to build them. Kunnin' rukk, skryrefyre, skyborne slayers, and others are all lists that will wreck your army without you being able to do anything about it.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
A very optized tournament army is going to mop the floor with any opponent short of that, but from what I've seen such armies aren't common yet. I suspect as things go on they'll show up in increasing number since people will have had more time to build them. Kunnin' rukk, skryrefyre, skyborne slayers, and others are all lists that will wreck your army without you being able to do anything about it.

Sure but it's that way in every game. You can play Smash Bros Melee with your friends and if only one of you knows how to Wavedash and ledge control it's going to be a very one sided game. I feel it's much easier to "gimp yourself" on AoS, though. Replace the Formation cost with another squad/character and you now have a much softer army with little effort.

The fortunate reality is that only a small minority of players would even bring a top-tier list to a game outside of a tournament (practice matches excepted). So for the average player the chances of seeing something like that are unlikely, and are pretty much a result of TFG. That's one upside of the GHB balance; the min-maxiest lists are so broken that they are easy to spot and simply not play against.

In my store, the "that guy" lists are not that rare. And the presence of the "that guy" lists cause the other players to obtain "that guy" lists so that they aren't getting mopped up, which is just a cycle that feeds itself.

 auticus wrote:
In my store, the "that guy" lists are not that rare. And the presence of the "that guy" lists cause the other players to obtain "that guy" lists so that they aren't getting mopped up, which is just a cycle that feeds itself.

Running a store is a delicate balance. You almost want to foster a cold war/escalation mentality to drive sales as players buy new units to be more and more competitive while at the same time making sure nobody actually invokes the nuclear option (bringing a min/maxed, top tier tournament hobby breaker list to the table). If the store management allows the nuclear option, any casual player will either quit or become a irradiated wasteland mutant, complete with his own hobby breaker list.

 Kriswall wrote:

 auticus wrote:
In my store, the "that guy" lists are not that rare. And the presence of the "that guy" lists cause the other players to obtain "that guy" lists so that they aren't getting mopped up, which is just a cycle that feeds itself.

Running a store is a delicate balance. You almost want to foster a cold war/escalation mentality to drive sales as players buy new units to be more and more competitive while at the same time making sure nobody actually invokes the nuclear option (bringing a min/maxed, top tier tournament hobby breaker list to the table). If the store management allows the nuclear option, any casual player will either quit or become a irradiated wasteland mutant, complete with his own hobby breaker list.

That result, sadly is what I see happen way too often. All it usually takes is one jerkwad to bring a tournament-caliber list (whether an actual tourney list or not, I mean a high-end min-maxed list) to the table, and then it starts a chain reaction where everyone else tries to do the same, lest they just get tabled swiftly and not have fun. So then you go from a fun, casual environment to a cutthroat one, even after the original jerkwad that started it leaves, because everyone has forgotten what casual meant, and then the casual meta dies completely because no one can play casual anymore; the new players see a cutthroat environment and have to join in or they will get crushed, whilst the veterans keep playing cutthroat lists because nobody will be the first to stop doing it and try to rekindle the casual environment they had before.

Its certainly sounds like a situation that is far too frequent (even if its only a minority) and difficult to manage when it happens. Thankfully I haven't had to deal with that spiral in WHFB or AoS. The few times a crazy min-maxer showed up we've been able to manage it. Maybe the situation overall is worse than I believe, but it still seems to me that less competitive communities are in the majority even if they aren't without some level of optimization.

I will say that for locally peer pressure is a strong force. Also we have a tendency to talk to each other before games. The only time it's been an issue is when the non-conformist (i.e. bring the deathstar to casual night) grabs a person who is just starting out. That risks that kid basically bailing on the hobby but it rarely happens.

Overall I feel like AoS is solid balance wise. Easily where 5th 40k was at it's peak. So we'll see where it goes from there.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Its certainly sounds like a situation that is far too frequent (even if its only a minority) and difficult to manage when it happens. Thankfully I haven't had to deal with that spiral in WHFB or AoS. The few times a crazy min-maxer showed up we've been able to manage it. Maybe the situation overall is worse than I believe, but it still seems to me that less competitive communities are in the majority even if they aren't without some level of optimization.

I think it depends where you live. I live in northern Delaware... that teeny, tiny state on the US's east coast. I have to drive to another state entirely to get a fun game in. We have one great store that sells a huge array of things, but only has narrow tables set aside for Magic players. The other place we have is some space set aside in some sort of freezer equipment warehouse. It's entirely hit or miss. The 40k community has been hostile, unwelcoming and win at all costs every time I've been there such that I've stopped going. On the flip side, I've played in some really fun X-Wing and Armada tournaments there and met some decent people. My perception is that the community there is perfectly willing to exploit any imbalance in the game to gain advantage. With 40k, an inherently imbalanced game, this leads to some pretty awful things as players min/max the fun out of the game. With X-Wing/Armada, it's harder to do. FFG regularly FAQs/Erratas the games to correct imbalances. I don't know how this crew handles AoS, but I just assume I'd see Skyre, Kunnin' Rukk, etc. lists there.

Long story short, I live in a primarily competitive community. I wish casual was more common, but in my microcosm, it's not.

Yep that is exactly how my slice of the gaming world is as well.

To be fair mine seems decent, at my GW store where I mainly play the 40k crowd seems like the typical wannabe tryhard competitive gak, but the AOS crowd thus far has all been cool and laid back, and seem to want to play for fun which I am all behind (part of why I'm majorly pushing AOS over 40k right now). can't speak to other stores as I don't really go there for Warhammer, I've heard the one really close to me has a full on "competitive" 40k scene (like the type who don't even know the world casual and pretend every game is a GT tournament), but some people have mentioned AOS there so I might try to set up a game there and meet the locals in that area so I have two stores to play AOS in. I'm already mulling about some ideas for a casual campaign that I want to pitch.

really makes me not even want to give anything 40k a glance though, AOS you may get some abusive things but it's nowhere near to the level of 40k and the attitude of players still generally tends to be fun over competitive, at least in my area which is a very welcome change. Although I am eyeing starting 30k to give that a shot and see if it's any better than 40k; I've heard it is, but the people who said that also like 40k so I'm not sure.

Wayniac wrote:
To be fair mine seems decent, at my GW store where I mainly play the 40k crowd seems like the typical wannabe tryhard competitive gak, but the AOS crowd thus far has all been cool and laid back, and seem to want to play for fun which I am all behind (part of why I'm majorly pushing AOS over 40k right now). can't speak to other stores as I don't really go there for Warhammer, I've heard the one really close to me has a full on "competitive" 40k scene (like the type who don't even know the world casual and pretend every game is a GT tournament), but some people have mentioned AOS there so I might try to set up a game there and meet the locals in that area so I have two stores to play AOS in. I'm already mulling about some ideas for a casual campaign that I want to pitch.

really makes me not even want to give anything 40k a glance though, AOS you may get some abusive things but it's nowhere near to the level of 40k and the attitude of players still generally tends to be fun over competitive, at least in my area which is a very welcome change. Although I am eyeing starting 30k to give that a shot and see if it's any better than 40k; I've heard it is, but the people who said that also like 40k so I'm not sure.

40k is just in a really bad place right now. GW has really painted themselves into a corner with the fractured factions operating at very different power levels, so many power granting upgrades being free in a points based environment (I'm looking at you, formations) and so many ways to break out of the 'standard force org' and not have to take the 'core troops tax' to get special units (still looking at you, formations).

30k is only better than 40k because there are no formations and 99% of the time you're playing Marines versus Marines. If you like anything other than Marines, IG or AdMech, prepare to be disappointed. My xenos armies simply aren't welcome. If you like Marines... well, you're in luck. It'll be Marines as far as the eye can see.

I like Marines, but I dont like painting them (although I'm looking at Death Guard and have painted bone/off-white colored marines to an acceptable standard before as a test), my main concern is balance since I while I don't mind dropping money on things sometimes that don't get used (eyes Space Wolf start collecting and ~1200 points of CSM and several Marine sprues), FW prices are high that I don't want to be stupid and drop like $600 then find out I don't like it :-/

Another reason to stick with AOS I guess (which I'll do anyways) because everything about it feels good other than some of the "problematic" battalions we've mentioned.

Wayniac wrote:
I like Marines, but I dont like painting them (although I'm looking at Death Guard and have painted bone/off-white colored marines to an acceptable standard before as a test), my main concern is balance since I while I don't mind dropping money on things sometimes that don't get used (eyes Space Wolf start collecting and ~1200 points of CSM and several Marine sprues), FW prices are high that I don't want to be stupid and drop like $600 then find out I don't like it :-/

Another reason to stick with AOS I guess (which I'll do anyways) because everything about it feels good other than some of the "problematic" battalions we've mentioned.

Yeah. I tried 30k for a short time before getting extremely bored. Our 30k players get upset if you paint your models the wrong color. Sigh.

AoS really is in a pretty good place right now. It feels very much like old school 40k to me, which I enjoy. I'd be totally fine with 40k getting "Sigmarized".

 Kriswall wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I like Marines, but I dont like painting them (although I'm looking at Death Guard and have painted bone/off-white colored marines to an acceptable standard before as a test), my main concern is balance since I while I don't mind dropping money on things sometimes that don't get used (eyes Space Wolf start collecting and ~1200 points of CSM and several Marine sprues), FW prices are high that I don't want to be stupid and drop like $600 then find out I don't like it :-/

Another reason to stick with AOS I guess (which I'll do anyways) because everything about it feels good other than some of the "problematic" battalions we've mentioned.

Yeah. I tried 30k for a short time before getting extremely bored. Our 30k players get upset if you paint your models the wrong color. Sigh.

AoS really is in a pretty good place right now. It feels very much like old school 40k to me, which I enjoy. I'd be totally fine with 40k getting "Sigmarized".

I think that's where I'm at too. I'm totally good with 40k getting sigmarized. Sigmar seems like a simple game but it's got a lot of depth and the combinations that are out there are crazy but it doesn't feel crazy because most stuff is in central locations (i.e. Battle Tomes or Grand Alliance only for Match Play Battalions) and the main unit rules are free and easily accessible.

Also it feels relatively balanced. Haven't run into any of these super lists yet but I'm sure I will at some point and as the game grows we'll be able to play around them OR we might actually see GW step up and put a price tag on them that balances them out a bit or changes how they work.

Where do Ironjawz fit into this hierarchy? They have no units that do Mortal wounds, heck the only sources of mortal wounds are 700 point special character or 500 point Megaboss on a Mawcrusher. Oh, and the Wierdnob Shaman and Arcane Bolt. No shooting in any units either. Overall, they are slow (infantry move 4" and the Cav 9"). The overall bravery is around a 6 or 7, with a 4+ armor save. After that, every model has at least 2 wounds. They also put out a disproportionate amount of attacks, typically needing 4's to hit and 3's to wound, with -1 Rend, and every unit has a big attack. Even the Weirdnob Shaman has The Foot of Gork that casts on a 10, and does d6 Mortal Wounds, and on a 4+, does d6 more mortal wounds, 4+ d6 more, etc. My personal record: 12 Mortal Wounds.

They are deceptively fast if you play Matched Play with Destruction Allegiance, getting an extra d6" move in each Hero phase. A Megaboss with the Battlebrew Artifact is a fearsome model to face. They seem like an increadibly tanky army.

Ironjawz do fine because the Ironfist battalion is so ludicrously undercosted and megaboss' respond very well to artifact buffs (which is to say battle brew).

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Ironjawz do fine because the Ironfist battalion is so ludicrously undercosted and megaboss' respond very well to artifact buffs (which is to say battle brew).

A free "run move" in the hero phase is really that good? D6" doesn't seem like it should cost hundreds of points. Am I missing something here? Does an average of 3" per turn really change the game that much? The extra 2 wounds is nice, but again, doesn't seem game breaking.

 Kriswall wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Ironjawz do fine because the Ironfist battalion is so ludicrously undercosted and megaboss' respond very well to artifact buffs (which is to say battle brew).

A free "run move" in the hero phase is really that good? D6" doesn't seem like it should cost hundreds of points. Am I missing something here? Does an average of 3" per turn really change the game that much? The extra 2 wounds is nice, but again, doesn't seem game breaking.

Well, if it's an entire Ironjawz army, it's actually 2d6" move in the Hero phase. 1d6" from the Warscroll Battalion, and 1d6" from the Allegiance Destruction ability. And they still get their normal move and charge on top of that. Only the Gore Grunta's move 9", and of course the Megaboss on a Mawcrusher. Everything else is 4". So in any given turn, the units are moving 4" +2d6", and then a 2d6" charge (sometimes at +2" with Ardboys Musician). Any unit in this army could move 6"-16", and then charge. Averages say an 11" move followed by a 7" charge or a whopping 18" average threat range. Total move and charge range is 8"-28". This is why they are a deceptively fast army.

 Kriswall wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Ironjawz do fine because the Ironfist battalion is so ludicrously undercosted and megaboss' respond very well to artifact buffs (which is to say battle brew).

A free "run move" in the hero phase is really that good? D6" doesn't seem like it should cost hundreds of points. Am I missing something here? Does an average of 3" per turn really change the game that much? The extra 2 wounds is nice, but again, doesn't seem game breaking.

It costs 60 points and the requirements are 3-5 brutes, gruntas, and/or ardboyz. If you are running a pure ironjawz army you need three of those for battleline anyway, so it literally becomes 60 points for extra movement (at movement 4 for the infantry 3" is actually a big deal), deployment benefits, and an extra artifact. In other words; its good because it largely mitigates ironjawz' main drawback (movement), costs nothing other than 60 points, and can contain any of the units you are potentially using in any combination. One of those things that at first glance doesn't seem very good but is far more than the sum of its parts. That battle brew works so well on megaboss' certainly helps too.

Ironjawz are solid as a fighting force. They suffer a small amount against Skyrefire or high rend/MW shooting since they are low model count and no ward saves, but once they get on combat they're one of the strongest in the game for sure. They'll see top tables I think, just because they have the strongest "run forward and fight" force aside from maybe Beastclaw.