Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking acolytes with the rock drill/saw are traps. Their benefit is in destroying armour, but just standard acolytes take a HP off anything AV11 and below on a 6, and can hurt up to AV13 (14 if you've got furious charge off). Moreover, metamorphs with claws hit str6 rending, and will take HPs off AV13 and below on 6s automatically (again 14 if FC). Since I'm inclined to agree with other posters that these guys are probably the best units in the codex, they are probably perfectly adequate to address any issues with armour if filling out a subterranean uprising with them.

Acolytes, on the other hand, will be better at dealing with very high toughness units like Wraithknights, since 6s are auto-wounds for both them and metamorphs with claws. That's also the reason why I didn't list the cutters with the other two PF equivalents - it could have a niche in hoping to instant kill nasty monstrous creatures that would otherwise take a fair bit of wearing down.

Thx I wanted values for both.

Benlisted wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking acolytes with the rock drill/saw are traps. Their benefit is in destroying armour, but just standard acolytes take a HP off anything AV11 and below on a 6, and can hurt up to AV13 (14 if you've got furious charge off). Moreover, metamorphs with claws hit str6 rending, and will take HPs off AV13 and below on 6s automatically (again 14 if FC). Since I'm inclined to agree with other posters that these guys are probably the best units in the codex, they are probably perfectly adequate to address any issues with armour if filling out a subterranean uprising with them.

Acolytes, on the other hand, will be better at dealing with very high toughness units like Wraithknights, since 6s are auto-wounds for both them and metamorphs with claws. That's also the reason why I didn't list the cutters with the other two PF equivalents - it could have a niche in hoping to instant kill nasty monstrous creatures that would otherwise take a fair bit of wearing down.

I was just thinking about that regarding Acolytes earlier... I think 2 saws in a unit of 10 isn't an awful choice, as it increases your reliability of taking out armor (especially tough armor), but I would definitely avoid the full compliment of weaponry. I would argue that the cutter is even less important, since rends all wound on a 6 anyhow, and the odds of getting that instant death are very slim.

Aside from hoping for 6's followed by 5-6's with rend to scratch armor 13, how do people plan on taking down Imperial Knights? I'm thinking a combination of outflanking russes with multi-meltas, and Acolytes in a Demolition Claw, might be the best choices, though obviously less than ideal.

The guaranteed AP2 on 2 attacks, buried in the squad, is what makes them shine. That, and if you happen to run into a walker.

This is kind of where my mind is going, comes to 1850 on the nose:

Cult Insurrection

The First Curse
Patriarch
Purestrain Genestealers x20

Neophyte Cavalcade
Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Leman Russ Exterminator x2 Multi-melta sponsons
Armored Sentinels x2 Autocannons

Demolition Claw
Acolyte Hybrids x5 Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Acolyte Hybrids x5 Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges

Subterranean Uprising
Primus x1
Metamorphs x10 Whips, Icon, 5 Hand Flamers
Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw

Kind of self explanatory I suppose. Decent amount of bodies, most of which will be shrouded turn 1, and can put out a lot of high strength attacks.

 minionboy wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
"Units with this special rule" indicates that the unit itself must have the rule and that it's not an "army-wide" special rule. Barring Scout Sentinels in a Neophyte Calvacade, none of the vehicles in the codex have the Cult Ambush rule.

Correct, but the wording of "Time to Rise Up" says, "All of the units in a Subterranean Uprising must Infiltrate during deployment, and set up using the Cult Ambush special rule (pg 96)." Which would imply that they set up using that rule, even if they don't normally have it. Just like a unit can perform a Deep Strike if a special rule forces or allows them to, even if they do not have the Deep Strike rule.

Also, the Subterranean Uprising does at the very least give all the transports Infiltrate, so even if you cannot Cult Ambush them, you can Infiltrate them, and they would be Shrouded if taken as part of a Cult Insurrection. Still totally worth taking.

If the parent unit can infiltrate the dedicated transport can too. it is in the big rule book. So with the ambush rule you can infiltrate the truck.

I'm looking at it fro the thought of "can I cover all my bases absolutely?"

Sure, Rending on Acolytes, Steelers, and Metamorphs is going to wreck tanks and high-armour units alike, bit it's unreliable. A saw or two with shred through it with more reliability. What am I gonna do to stop a raging Walker? Or, hell, a Knight? I'd rather be able to poke holes in it reliably, then sign for several fruitless combat chunking away at it while it stomps my guys into the dirt.

I'm definitely thinking about a unit of 10-15 Acolytes with max saws to take on Super-heavies and Gargantuans. A big block.of Acolytes is surely to ruin a Wraithknight or Knights day through shear number of attacks alone, but I'd rather ruin it's day reliably.

I think a mixture of whips and claws on the Metamorphs is a good idea. Initiative 7 is nothing to sneeze at and can safely clear out a lot of enemies without giving them a chance to strike back, which is great as Metamorphs are not particularly resilient. Claws are great for cracking tougher shells, but not everything needs S6 to be killed.

Double talon does seem like a definite lame duck choice though, unfortunately. I suppose reducing GEQ to WS2 with psychic powers means you're hit on 5s, but meh, doesn't seem worth it.

krakentendrilswarm wrote:
Double talon does seem like a definite lame duck choice though, unfortunately. I suppose reducing GEQ to WS2 with psychic powers means you're hit on 5s, but meh, doesn't seem worth it.

With a Cult Icon in the squad, you'll be WS 7, so you'll be hit on 5s at that point by GEQs anyways. And an Icon is only 2 meltabombs, so it's probably worth taking...

 minionboy wrote:
This is kind of where my mind is going, comes to 1850 on the nose:

Cult Insurrection

The First Curse
Patriarch
Purestrain Genestealers x20

Neophyte Cavalcade
Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Leman Russ Exterminator x2 Multi-melta sponsons
Armored Sentinels x2 Autocannons

Demolition Claw
Acolyte Hybrids x5 Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Acolyte Hybrids x5 Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges

Subterranean Uprising
Primus x1
Metamorphs x10 Whips, Icon, 5 Hand Flamers
Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw

Kind of self explanatory I suppose. Decent amount of bodies, most of which will be shrouded turn 1, and can put out a lot of high strength attacks.

Total points?

 minionboy wrote:
This is kind of where my mind is going, comes to 1850 on the nose:

Cult Insurrection

The First Curse
Patriarch
Purestrain Genestealers x20

Neophyte Cavalcade
Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Leman Russ Exterminator x2 Multi-melta sponsons
Armored Sentinels x2 Autocannons

Demolition Claw
Acolyte Hybrids x5 Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Acolyte Hybrids x5 Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges

Subterranean Uprising
Primus x1
Metamorphs x10 Whips, Icon, 5 Hand Flamers
Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw

Kind of self explanatory I suppose. Decent amount of bodies, most of which will be shrouded turn 1, and can put out a lot of high strength attacks.

Looks quite scary to face. Don't want to know how much $$$ that is going to cost though

zamerion wrote:
Total points?

Aw, c'mon, its the first line of text in the post, "comes to 1850 on the nose".

 buddha wrote:
Looks quite scary to face. Don't want to know how much $$$ that is going to cost though

Me either! Thankfully I already have the chimeras and russes!

I was leaning towards;

First Curse 405
1x Patriarch - ML2, 2x Fam
20x Purestrain

Brood Cycle 400

1xIcon ward
3x5 Acolyte
2x10 Neophyte
1x5 Metamorph
1x5 Purestrain

Subterranean Uprising 295
3x5 Metamorph
4x5 Acolyte

Subterranean Uprising 295
3x5 Metamorph
4x5 Acolyte

Subterranean Uprising 295
3x5 Metamorph
4x5 Acolyte

1695 pts. Leaves you with 55/155 pts for 1750/1850.

15x5 acolytes (12 with 2d6 on cult ambush)
10x5 Metamorph (9 with 2d6 on cult ambush)

Then all the rest. Basic idea is to just keep rolling for that 6, if you don't get a six, deploy back field and try to pop out and then back in hoping for the 6s. With 25 units rolling on 2d6, you should get 6-10 pretty reliably. Double and triple them up on their assaults, you should be hitting units with anywhere from 20-60 rending attacks at a time. Deathstar units can be hit from multiple sides at once, splitting up their counter attacks and forcing wounds across multiple sides.

If the patriarch rolls 6 on warlord traits, you can use other units to eat overwatch to let his mini-deathstar roll in. Against actual deathstars, you can use small units to tie deathstar up from multiple sides to reduce number of attacks and plow his unit in hard at one point.

Cheesy list, but really accentuates the strength of the codex, which is hitting hard out of reserves, and using the d6 regen for backfield units.

could drop one subterranean formation to ally in some nids, for some psychic dice and AA.

Allied detachment (4 psychic dice) - 320
Flyrant
Zoanthrope
Termagants

Have a somewhat similar list to you written Trace - but I'm a lot of acolytes/metamorphs off, and 125 of them is even further!! I think you're right that that is an extremely potent list - hell, min-maxing I'd even be inclined to drop the First cursed and add another Uprising and a Primus (160 acolytes....).

My idea was to soup up the First Cursed deathstar as best I could:

Brood Cycle
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
10 neophytes, 1 ML
10 neophytes, 1 ML
5 metamorphs w claws
5 purestrains
iconward

Subterranean Uprising
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs w claws
5 metamorphs w claws
5 metamorphs w claws
primus

First Cursed
patriarch
20 purestrains

Cult leader
magos, crouchling

CAD
patriarch ghosar
magos
5 acolytes
5 acolytes

1500 on the nose.


Main different thing here is the inclusion of a CAD for extra warp charges - we have 9 in total, which should give you reasonable odds of getting invis, endurance and hopefully Iron Arm/Warp Speed on the Patriarch. Once you get the key buffs, you can roll on Broodmind for the awesome powers there.

Ghosar is a bit of a wildcard, solely in there to give HnR to the mini-deathstar - obviously with him you have to hope for invis. Could equally be another magos though!

Traceoftoxin wrote:I was leaning towards;

Spoiler:

First Curse 405
1x Patriarch - ML2, 2x Fam
20x Purestrain

Brood Cycle 400

1xIcon ward
3x5 Acolyte
2x10 Neophyte
1x5 Metamorph
1x5 Purestrain

Subterranean Uprising 295
3x5 Metamorph
4x5 Acolyte

Subterranean Uprising 295
3x5 Metamorph
4x5 Acolyte

Subterranean Uprising 295
3x5 Metamorph
4x5 Acolyte

1695 pts. Leaves you with 55/155 pts for 1750/1850.

15x5 acolytes (12 with 2d6 on cult ambush)
10x5 Metamorph (9 with 2d6 on cult ambush)

Then all the rest. Basic idea is to just keep rolling for that 6, if you don't get a six, deploy back field and try to pop out and then back in hoping for the 6s. With 25 units rolling on 2d6, you should get 6-10 pretty reliably. Double and triple them up on their assaults, you should be hitting units with anywhere from 20-60 rending attacks at a time. Deathstar units can be hit from multiple sides at once, splitting up their counter attacks and forcing wounds across multiple sides.

If the patriarch rolls 6 on warlord traits, you can use other units to eat overwatch to let his mini-deathstar roll in. Against actual deathstars, you can use small units to tie deathstar up from multiple sides to reduce number of attacks and plow his unit in hard at one point.

Cheesy list, but really accentuates the strength of the codex, which is hitting hard out of reserves, and using the d6 regen for backfield units.

could drop one subterranean formation to ally in some nids, for some psychic dice and AA.

Allied detachment (4 psychic dice) - 320
Flyrant
Zoanthrope
Termagants

I'm liking this idea a lot more than I thought I would... You have 21 units rolling 2D6 (3 Subterranean Uprisings), plus 7 more rolls from the Brood Cycle, and then the First Curse. If you're rolling for a 6 on the Patriarch's warlord trait, you've got a total ~40% chance to end up charging first turn with them (including the odds of not getting the warlord trait, but naturally rolling a 6 on Ambush). Plus 21 units with a 30.555% chance of appearing turn 1, and another 7 rolls... It really wouldnt' be unlikely for you to have 8-9 units of Acolytes/Metamorphs charging on turn 1, on top of 20 stealers and a pissed off patriarch... Might not win every game, but would be hilarious! I would probably add a saw in half of the units of acolytes to bring it up to 1850.

Benlisted wrote:Have a somewhat similar list to you written Trace - but I'm a lot of acolytes/metamorphs off, and 125 of them is even further!! I think you're right that that is an extremely potent list - hell, min-maxing I'd even be inclined to drop the First cursed and add another Uprising and a Primus (160 acolytes....).

My idea was to soup up the First Cursed deathstar as best I could:

Spoiler:

Brood Cycle
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
10 neophytes, 1 ML
10 neophytes, 1 ML
5 metamorphs w claws
5 purestrains
iconward

Subterranean Uprising
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs w claws
5 metamorphs w claws
5 metamorphs w claws
primus

First Cursed
patriarch
20 purestrains

Cult leader
magos, crouchling

CAD
patriarch ghosar
magos
5 acolytes
5 acolytes

1500 on the nose.

Main different thing here is the inclusion of a CAD for extra warp charges - we have 9 in total, which should give you reasonable odds of getting invis, endurance and hopefully Iron Arm/Warp Speed on the Patriarch. Once you get the key buffs, you can roll on Broodmind for the awesome powers there.

Ghosar is a bit of a wildcard, solely in there to give HnR to the mini-deathstar - obviously with him you have to hope for invis. Could equally be another magos though!

If you're going for a Deathstar, you could just take a spare Lords of the Cult formation to attach to your First Cursed, though I'm not thinking GSC will make that great of a death star.

Benlisted wrote:
Have a somewhat similar list to you written Trace - but I'm a lot of acolytes/metamorphs off, and 125 of them is even further!! I think you're right that that is an extremely potent list - hell, min-maxing I'd even be inclined to drop the First cursed and add another Uprising and a Primus (160 acolytes....).

My idea was to soup up the First Cursed deathstar as best I could:

Cult leader
magos, crouchling

CAD
patriarch ghosar
magos
5 acolytes
5 acolytes

1500 on the nose.


Main different thing here is the inclusion of a CAD for extra warp charges - we have 9 in total, which should give you reasonable odds of getting invis, endurance and hopefully Iron Arm/Warp Speed on the Patriarch. Once you get the key buffs, you can roll on Broodmind for the awesome powers there.

Ghosar is a bit of a wildcard, solely in there to give HnR to the mini-deathstar - obviously with him you have to hope for invis. Could equally be another magos though!

Can we use Ghosar as part of a normal CAD for GSC? Good way to add another beatstick to the First Curse and also grab a magos for more psychic dice. Good ideas.

 minionboy wrote:


I'm liking this idea a lot more than I thought I would... You have 21 units rolling 2D6 (3 Subterranean Uprisings), plus 7 more rolls from the Brood Cycle, and then the First Curse. If you're rolling for a 6 on the Patriarch's warlord trait, you've got a total ~40% chance to end up charging first turn with them (including the odds of not getting the warlord trait, but naturally rolling a 6 on Ambush). Plus 21 units with a 30.555% chance of appearing turn 1, and another 7 rolls... It really wouldnt' be unlikely for you to have 8-9 units of Acolytes/Metamorphs charging on turn 1, on top of 20 stealers and a pissed off patriarch... Might not win every game, but would be hilarious! I would probably add a saw in half of the units of acolytes to bring it up to 1850.

Agreed. A handful of saws here and there could make a big difference. Two units with saws rolling a 6 can probably do some damage to a Knight, or wreck shop on some broadsides.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:


Can we use Ghosar as part of a normal CAD for GSC? Good way to add another beatstick to the First Curse and also grab a magos for more psychic dice. Good ideas.

Yeah, he's still an HQ choice so no reason why not! Shame he's only str5 as opposed to 6 like the new patriarch, you get a familiar as compensation though. The question is whether, if you attach him to a unit with cult ambush and return to the shadows - can the unit make use of that rule even though he doesn't have them?

Whats the thoughts with leaving a majority (3) Metamorphs unupgraded so the unit is majority WS 5, and so you have bullet sponges? Granted, you lose two Metamorphs and you aren't majority 5 anymore...

Been thinking about upgrades for the GSC and the metamorphs in particular. All claws all the time? What a pain given that they are 1 to a box.

don't mind me, just an adeptus mechanicus player with some jealous scrapcode in my system.


What do people think of the Goliath tank? anyone planning on getting them or using them?

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Whats the thoughts with leaving a majority (3) Metamorphs unupgraded so the unit is majority WS 5, and so you have bullet sponges? Granted, you lose two Metamorphs and you aren't majority 5 anymore...

Been thinking about upgrades for the GSC and the metamorphs in particular. All claws all the time? What a pain given that they are 1 to a box.

If every metamorph in the army has a claw then who cares how they are modeled really. Once you start mixing loadouts between units or the same unit and THEN WYSIWYG is very important, but like I said, if every one in the list has the same upgrade only a douche would care when GW is giving you 1 in a $4o box.

One ask i did to myself is what would happen if you join another character like a magos or patriarch to a Subterranean Uprising unit?
Rolling 2 dices or only one for that unit?

 Red Corsair wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Whats the thoughts with leaving a majority (3) Metamorphs unupgraded so the unit is majority WS 5, and so you have bullet sponges? Granted, you lose two Metamorphs and you aren't majority 5 anymore...

Been thinking about upgrades for the GSC and the metamorphs in particular. All claws all the time? What a pain given that they are 1 to a box.

If every metamorph in the army has a claw then who cares how they are modeled really. Once you start mixing loadouts between units or the same unit and THEN WYSIWYG is very important, but like I said, if every one in the list has the same upgrade only a douche would care when GW is giving you 1 in a $4o box.

Well, because some of us (me) care about the cool models. To each their own.

Sorta tempted to throw my pile of shinies here and see what you glorious gents can make of it. Can't do much myself til Saturday when I can read through proper and pick up my stuff.



Pretty certain I have at least another 10-15 Genestealers on sprues still as well.

And for those wondering, this is this weekend's shopping list. I essentially already have 12 DWO Acolytes, 20 Neophytes in total (Leader with Power Weapon/Bolt Pistol, 2 Grenade Launchers, 2 Mining Lasers, Icon), the Magus and Primus and a Space Hulk Broodlord and Stealers galore.)

The time has come for my morkalites and gorkamorfs.

Nobody likes the idea of broodcoven + acolyte iconward (icon of the cult) in a unit of 20 methamorps with crawsing claws from subterranean uprisng ?

This is thousand better than the first curse, (5atacks with S7 on charge, hatred, and preferent enemy..)

And maybe adding patrarch ghosar to hit and run.





ONE IMPORTANT QUESTION PLEASE.

I have the book in spanish, and in the subterranean uprising, said that if a unit of this formation is joined by THE primus, the unit roles 3 dice, this mean that only the primus of the formation gives this bonus?

In english said THE, ONE, or A primus?

Thanks a lot!!!!

"A primus". So it looks like RAW that it doesn't have to be the Primus from that formation. Or even that detachment. Which is interesting... Although remember if going solely the 'decurion' detachment that you only get one primus anyway.

River Zora wrote:
"A primus". So it looks like RAW that it doesn't have to be the Primus from that formation. Or even that detachment. Which is interesting... Although remember if going solely the 'decurion' detachment that you only get one primus anyway.

thanks for the 2 answers

What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?

 Ratius wrote:
What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?

I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.

 Ratius wrote:
What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?

Yeah they are a real glass hammer overall. If you don't kill what you need dead in the ambush phase then you're going to get hit back hard, even by guardsmen.

There's also a lot of randomness in their better abilities (natural 6 on the ambush table etc.).

Overall I think they're solid, but require a lot of finesse to use well. Pairing them with a Guard army seems like the strongest option, giving the IG army some forward elements that can tie up and/or disable key enemy positions and letting the gun line do its work.