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Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ohhhh yeah, been lurking (spying) and thinking about what ways GSC may fight against me. I didn't even think about Imperial Knights, how would GSC handle one of those? I suppose that they could potentially kite it around the table using the Cult Ambush rule, and perhaps even get some shots into the back armor using that rule as well. Otherwise a Knight may be problematic.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ohhhh yeah, been lurking (spying) and thinking about what ways GSC may fight against me. I didn't even think about Imperial Knights, how would GSC handle one of those? I suppose that they could potentially kite it around the table using the Cult Ambush rule, and perhaps even get some shots into the back armor using that rule as well. Otherwise a Knight may be problematic.
I've been looking for solutions and have come up with a few...
Goliath Rockgrinders, you'll be ramming at S7+2D6, so a decent chance to penetrate, which Ion Shields doesn't work against, and +1 damage helps to get that Explode result.
Acolyte Rock Saws will do plenty of damage
Demolition Claw giving Tank Hunter to the above units to re-roll pens with ramming, heavy mining lasers or heavy seismic cannons), Rock Saws, or even just re-rolls for those Rending Claws
Leman Russ Executioners with multi-melta sponsons, especially outflanking with the Acolyte Cavalcade. You could go with a vanquisher, but I hate the 50/50 chance of the main gun, maybe if it was AP1 I'd consider it
Generally speaking, I wouldn't want to rely on rends, since you'll need a 6 + 3 to glance an IK in melee... you have a 1/18 chance to glance, 1/36 after you factor in rolling to hit, 1/24 with the Cult Icon.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ohhhh yeah, been lurking (spying) and thinking about what ways GSC may fight against me. I didn't even think about Imperial Knights, how would GSC handle one of those? I suppose that they could potentially kite it around the table using the Cult Ambush rule, and perhaps even get some shots into the back armor using that rule as well. Otherwise a Knight may be problematic.
Some quick napkin math suggests that a 20-strong unit of metamorphs with claws will manage to down an IK, WK, or SS with invuln in a single round of combat, if they get some minimal buffs they should easily have (FC, +1WS, etc). However, 2 of the saws should do close to 4 HP to an IK, or with hatred 5.3 or so - and iirc each acolyte should average 0.185 or so HP. So actually, I think a 5 man unit with two saws stands a solid shot - would ofc go for a bigger unit to make it more sure and protect the saws though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/30 16:53:50
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ohhhh yeah, been lurking (spying) and thinking about what ways GSC may fight against me. I didn't even think about Imperial Knights, how would GSC handle one of those? I suppose that they could potentially kite it around the table using the Cult Ambush rule, and perhaps even get some shots into the back armor using that rule as well. Otherwise a Knight may be problematic.
I've been looking for solutions and have come up with a few...
Goliath Rockgrinders, you'll be ramming at S7+2D6, so a decent chance to penetrate, which Ion Shields doesn't work against, and +1 damage helps to get that Explode result.
Acolyte Rock Saws will do plenty of damage
Demolition Claw giving Tank Hunter to the above units to re-roll pens with ramming, heavy mining lasers or heavy seismic cannons), Rock Saws, or even just re-rolls for those Rending Claws
Leman Russ Executioners with multi-melta sponsons, especially outflanking with the Acolyte Cavalcade. You could go with a vanquisher, but I hate the 50/50 chance of the main gun, maybe if it was AP1 I'd consider it
Generally speaking, I wouldn't want to rely on rends, since you'll need a 6 + 3 to glance an IK in melee... you have a 1/18 chance to glance, 1/36 after you factor in rolling to hit, 1/24 with the Cult Icon.
Can the demolition claw bring neophytes rather than acolytes? You mention mining lasers and seismics in the claw, and those can only be taken on neophytes.
As to the question: My go-to is going to be seismic cannon/nade launcher neophyte squads, and acolytes with 1x anti tank weapon per squad of 5. I'm more concerned with things like Screamerstars than imperial knights.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ohhhh yeah, been lurking (spying) and thinking about what ways GSC may fight against me. I didn't even think about Imperial Knights, how would GSC handle one of those? I suppose that they could potentially kite it around the table using the Cult Ambush rule, and perhaps even get some shots into the back armor using that rule as well. Otherwise a Knight may be problematic.
I've been looking for solutions and have come up with a few...
Goliath Rockgrinders, you'll be ramming at S7+2D6, so a decent chance to penetrate, which Ion Shields doesn't work against, and +1 damage helps to get that Explode result.
Acolyte Rock Saws will do plenty of damage
Demolition Claw giving Tank Hunter to the above units to re-roll pens with ramming, heavy mining lasers or heavy seismic cannons), Rock Saws, or even just re-rolls for those Rending Claws
Leman Russ Executioners with multi-melta sponsons, especially outflanking with the Acolyte Cavalcade. You could go with a vanquisher, but I hate the 50/50 chance of the main gun, maybe if it was AP1 I'd consider it
Generally speaking, I wouldn't want to rely on rends, since you'll need a 6 + 3 to glance an IK in melee... you have a 1/18 chance to glance, 1/36 after you factor in rolling to hit, 1/24 with the Cult Icon.
Can the demolition claw bring neophytes rather than acolytes? You mention mining lasers and seismics in the claw, and those can only be taken on neophytes.
As to the question: My go-to is going to be seismic cannon/nade launcher neophyte squads, and acolytes with 1x anti tank weapon per squad of 5. I'm more concerned with things like Screamerstars than imperial knights.
Sadly no, I meant the variants mounted on the Goliath Rockgrinders themselves.
On paper it seems like GSCs can handle GMCs and super heavies just fine due to acolytes, metamorphs, and purestrains. Basically mass rending with buffs solves the problems.
I'm thinking armies like Necrons which may just be able to weather the glass cannon nature kg GSCs will be a tough match up. I also think daemons in general can be a hard counter since they are similar stat wise and far more mobile.
Way too soon to tell but the rules could really help balance out riptide spam and eldar (webbers anyone?) Which would be a welcome meta shift.
buddha wrote: On paper it seems like GSCs can handle GMCs and super heavies just fine due to acolytes, metamorphs, and purestrains. Basically mass rending with buffs solves the problems.
I'm thinking armies like Necrons which may just be able to weather the glass cannon nature kg GSCs will be a tough match up. I also think daemons in general can be a hard counter since they are similar stat wise and far more mobile.
Way too soon to tell but the rules could really help balance out riptide spam and eldar (webbers anyone?) Which would be a welcome meta shift.
I would say MC's and GMC's aren't a concern really because of that, but I don't like relying on rends needing 6's, then a 5-6 to glance... That means it takes 3x as many rends to cause a HP of damage to AV13 (and generally cannot scratch AV14), than it takes to cause a wound to MC/GMC.
I'm not sure how you figure Deamons are more maneuverable, GSC gets to effectively deepstrike, without scattering, and can do it multiple times per game to be wherever you need them.
The problem with the saws is that cost near triple than the acolyte :(
i dont know if its better carry them in small units (1 saw for each unit) or in a big unit. (6/8 in a unit of 20)
Im sure that im goint to have a big unit with heroes to buff it (broodcoven + iconward) but i dont know if acolytes (with saws) or metamorfs(with claws)
What do you think?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/30 17:47:07
zamerion wrote: The problem with the saws is that cost near triple than the acolyte :(
i dont know if its better carry them in small units (1 saw for each unit) or in a big unit. (6/8 in a unit of 20)
Im sure that im goint to have a big unit with heroes to buff it (broodcoven + iconward) but i dont know if acolytes (with saws) or metamorfs(with claws)
What do you think?
I'm really digging the Demolition Claw with 2-3 units of 5/6, each unit gets one demo charge and one saw. I think Tank Hunter is worth it, especially since it affects the Rockgrinder too, so can re-roll to pen with those Seismic Cannons (AP1 if they get a 6 to pen, which can cause quite a few HP of damage to a LoW with a bit of luck). Even in units of 10, I would still probably only take 2 saws, in even bigger units (like 20) I might step that up to 3-4.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ohhhh yeah, been lurking (spying) and thinking about what ways GSC may fight against me. I didn't even think about Imperial Knights, how would GSC handle one of those? I suppose that they could potentially kite it around the table using the Cult Ambush rule, and perhaps even get some shots into the back armor using that rule as well. Otherwise a Knight may be problematic.
I've been looking for solutions and have come up with a few...
Goliath Rockgrinders, you'll be ramming at S7+2D6, so a decent chance to penetrate, which Ion Shields doesn't work against, and +1 damage helps to get that Explode result.
Acolyte Rock Saws will do plenty of damage
Demolition Claw giving Tank Hunter to the above units to re-roll pens with ramming, heavy mining lasers or heavy seismic cannons), Rock Saws, or even just re-rolls for those Rending Claws
Leman Russ Executioners with multi-melta sponsons, especially outflanking with the Acolyte Cavalcade. You could go with a vanquisher, but I hate the 50/50 chance of the main gun, maybe if it was AP1 I'd consider it
Generally speaking, I wouldn't want to rely on rends, since you'll need a 6 + 3 to glance an IK in melee... you have a 1/18 chance to glance, 1/36 after you factor in rolling to hit, 1/24 with the Cult Icon.
Not exactly, the ram says it adds d6 to the strength, since strength cannot surpass 10 you have to roll one die seperate to add to the strength of the hit 7+d6 maxing out at 10. Then you roll to penetrate, this makes them much less reliable. Still awesome, but I wanted to point out that difference since you were suggesting they have the equivalent to armorbane which is incorrect.
Best answer for the points are acolytes with saws. Where you purchase them can vary but s8 armorbane ap2 with 3 attacks a piece on the charge will make short work of an superheavy.
rollawaythestone wrote: Whats the thoughts with leaving a majority (3) Metamorphs unupgraded so the unit is majority WS 5, and so you have bullet sponges? Granted, you lose two Metamorphs and you aren't majority 5 anymore...
Been thinking about upgrades for the GSC and the metamorphs in particular. All claws all the time? What a pain given that they are 1 to a box.
If every metamorph in the army has a claw then who cares how they are modeled really. Once you start mixing loadouts between units or the same unit and THEN WYSIWYG is very important, but like I said, if every one in the list has the same upgrade only a douche would care when GW is giving you 1 in a $4o box.
Well, because some of us (me) care about the cool models. To each their own.
Actually my suggestion was based primarily on the cool models, I think a mix of biomorphs looks way sweeter personally and I kind of hate that derpy looking claw, it looks to crab like and not genestealer like enough for me. As you said though, to eat his own.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/30 18:02:52
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ohhhh yeah, been lurking (spying) and thinking about what ways GSC may fight against me. I didn't even think about Imperial Knights, how would GSC handle one of those? I suppose that they could potentially kite it around the table using the Cult Ambush rule, and perhaps even get some shots into the back armor using that rule as well. Otherwise a Knight may be problematic.
I've been looking for solutions and have come up with a few...
Goliath Rockgrinders, you'll be ramming at S7+2D6, so a decent chance to penetrate, which Ion Shields doesn't work against, and +1 damage helps to get that Explode result.
Acolyte Rock Saws will do plenty of damage
Demolition Claw giving Tank Hunter to the above units to re-roll pens with ramming, heavy mining lasers or heavy seismic cannons), Rock Saws, or even just re-rolls for those Rending Claws
Leman Russ Executioners with multi-melta sponsons, especially outflanking with the Acolyte Cavalcade. You could go with a vanquisher, but I hate the 50/50 chance of the main gun, maybe if it was AP1 I'd consider it
Generally speaking, I wouldn't want to rely on rends, since you'll need a 6 + 3 to glance an IK in melee... you have a 1/18 chance to glance, 1/36 after you factor in rolling to hit, 1/24 with the Cult Icon.
Not exactly, the ram says it adds d6 to the strength, since strength cannot surpass 10 you have to roll one die seperate to add to the strength of the hit 7+d6 maxing out at 10. Then you roll to penetrate, this makes them much less reliable. Still awesome, but I wanted to point out that difference since you were suggesting they have the equivalent to armorbane which is incorrect.
Best answer for the points are acolytes with saws. Where you purchase them can vary but s8 armorbane ap2 with 3 attacks a piece on the charge will make short work of an superheavy.
Ahh, good call, definitely not as good as 2D6, though Tank Hunters on the Demolition Claw funnily helps with that ram attack... No way to cause those D3 S10 Ap2 attacks to a walker though, is there? Booo...
Agree about the Acolytes, and while the saws might be expensive, the Acolytes themselves are cheap and have 2 attacks, which is awesome.
Yea I the demolition claw goliaths will ram very effectively.
I don't mind the cost of the upgrades on acolytes since this army is actually a nightmare to avoid taking too many models. Not suggesting a horde is by any means bad, but try getting a game into a 2-3 hour time frame with 30+ units all with special deployments and possible regens.... Ouch. I will gladly fork over for the upgrades since we have to points efficiency everywhere else and because honestly I don't think any of them are over priced. The only steep upgrade in the book for me are the demo charges and hilariously enough the way around that is to just summon a 10 man acolyte squad with 4 demo charges since they are free and waste a target.
Regarding Rockgrinders, they're still fundamentally a BS 3 vehicle with no sort of Twin-Linking/Prescience and no "Fast" or other similar benefits. You have a unit that is effectively the same cost as a unit of (vacuum-wise) Tankbustas, and you have roughly the same degree of survivability too. 5 S8 BS 2 shots > 1 S9 BS 3 shot, and that still by itself isn't sufficient.
The problems with using it in its "intended role" as a tank destroyer are that it's a slow vehicle with short range and bad side armor; Vindicators seldom see the light of day and they have better range and durability as is!
The Rockgrinder's real role seems to be the fact that it looks to be the cheapest Torrent weapon in the game (Yes, I know that the Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch is cheaper, but he's not Relentless). Three Rockgrinders is still cheaper than 2 Hellhounds, and if you run them in Squadrons, you can maximize your Front Armor arc while being able to take advantage of multiple torrents. The actual Tank Hunter bonus should be viewed as just that, an incidental bonus to ramming that gives you some duality of purpose.
MagicJuggler wrote: Regarding Rockgrinders, they're still fundamentally a BS 3 vehicle with no sort of Twin-Linking/Prescience and no "Fast" or other similar benefits. You have a unit that is effectively the same cost as a unit of (vacuum-wise) Tankbustas, and you have roughly the same degree of survivability too. 5 S8 BS 2 shots > 1 S9 BS 3 shot, and that still by itself isn't sufficient.
The problems with using it in its "intended role" as a tank destroyer are that it's a slow vehicle with short range and bad side armor; Vindicators seldom see the light of day and they have better range and durability as is!
The Rockgrinder's real role seems to be the fact that it looks to be the cheapest Torrent weapon in the game (Yes, I know that the Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch is cheaper, but he's not Relentless). Three Rockgrinders is still cheaper than 2 Hellhounds, and if you run them in Squadrons, you can maximize your Front Armor arc while being able to take advantage of multiple torrents. The actual Tank Hunter bonus should be viewed as just that, an incidental bonus to ramming that gives you some duality of purpose.
I wouldn't rely on them using their Mining lasers, if you're going to take them for tank hunting, it will be with a Heavy Seismic Cannon, giving you 3 S8 shots within 12", which is fine, you'll be wanting to get that close to either deliver Acolytes, or to ram anyhow.
I agree that their torrent flamers are nice, but they're kind of the last thing you need in the army, GSC has plenty of other ways to handle infantry, it's tanks that you need to punch. Rockgrinders may not be 100% ideal for the job, but they're the tool that's available.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/30 19:41:00
I don't think the seismic cannon is an awful choice for rockgrinders - BS3 is a bummer but you can always take a crate for the ammo dumps to at least reroll 1s. That said, I would absolutely not rely on them for my tank hunting, or at minimum they'd be one in a toolbox of options for killing tanks.
What's annoying about the demo claw is that the rockgrinder isn't assault, so you don't really want the acolytes from the formation in it. I think the best bet, since neophytes don't fit either, is probably some brood cycle/doting throng acolytes with max hand flamers?
As a Tyranid player I'm kind of bummed out that GW decided to make Genestealer Cult AoC with IG, as it might very well be that in a while we till think of Genestealer Cult as a prolongation of IG, and not of Tyranids.
I have a hunch that IG benefits more from GC than Tyranids do. And that's a hard pill to swallow.
At the very least an GC/IG army should be forced to have the GC as the primary detachment, seeing how the only instance they would play nice with eachother would be with IG as tools in the hands of the Cult. IG could never use and trust units of traitorous alien half-breed guards, who wants to slaughter all non-Tyranids. It defies all logic. Once the Genestealer Cult set their century old plan in motion and uncover their horrible monstrous off-spring to ravage the planet, they wont join forces with any human scum against any third party, and even less will they be enlisted in the armies of the Imperium.
"How did we win against the Genestealer Cult general?"
"Why, we recruted them of course! It was scary for a few hours, but as it turned out they were merely cold and hungry and wanted nice bunk-beds to sleep in."
N.I.B. wrote: As a Tyranid player I'm kind of bummed out that GW decided to make Genestealer Cult AoC with IG, as it might very well be that in a while we till think of Genestealer Cult as a prolongation of IG, and not of Tyranids.
I have a hunch that IG benefits more from GC than Tyranids do. And that's a hard pill to swallow.
At the very least an GC/IG army should be forced to have the GC as the primary detachment, seeing how the only instance they would play nice with eachother would be with IG as tools in the hands of the Cult. IG could never use and trust units of traitorous alien half-breed guards, who wants to slaughter all non-Tyranids. It defies all logic. Once the Genestealer Cult set their century old plan in motion and uncover their horrible monstrous off-spring to ravage the planet, they wont join forces with any human scum against any third party, and even less will they be enlisted in the armies of the Imperium.
"How did we win against the Genestealer Cult general?"
"Why, we recruted them of course! It was scary for a few hours, but as it turned out they were merely cold and hungry and wanted nice bunk-beds to sleep in."
Well, they are more of an extension of IG than Tyranids... No Genestealer cultist has met a Tyranid, other than a Genestealer before, and the day they do meet the Tyranids in person, they're one step away from being food themselves. GSC spend much more time working with and infiltrating the Imperial Guard, than they do fighting alongside actual Tyranids.
MagicJuggler wrote: Regarding Rockgrinders, they're still fundamentally a BS 3 vehicle with no sort of Twin-Linking/Prescience and no "Fast" or other similar benefits. You have a unit that is effectively the same cost as a unit of (vacuum-wise) Tankbustas, and you have roughly the same degree of survivability too. 5 S8 BS 2 shots > 1 S9 BS 3 shot, and that still by itself isn't sufficient.
The problems with using it in its "intended role" as a tank destroyer are that it's a slow vehicle with short range and bad side armor; Vindicators seldom see the light of day and they have better range and durability as is!
The Rockgrinder's real role seems to be the fact that it looks to be the cheapest Torrent weapon in the game (Yes, I know that the Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch is cheaper, but he's not Relentless). Three Rockgrinders is still cheaper than 2 Hellhounds, and if you run them in Squadrons, you can maximize your Front Armor arc while being able to take advantage of multiple torrents. The actual Tank Hunter bonus should be viewed as just that, an incidental bonus to ramming that gives you some duality of purpose.
I wouldn't rely on them using their Mining lasers, if you're going to take them for tank hunting, it will be with a Heavy Seismic Cannon, giving you 3 S8 shots within 12", which is fine, you'll be wanting to get that close to either deliver Acolytes, or to ram anyhow.
I agree that their torrent flamers are nice, but they're kind of the last thing you need in the army, GSC has plenty of other ways to handle infantry, it's tanks that you need to punch. Rockgrinders may not be 100% ideal for the job, but they're the tool that's available.
But again, the Heavy Seismic Cannon's range is fairly limiting, and it locks you into running him as a "monotask" unit. 2 Autogoliaths are not that much more points-intensive than a Seismic Rockgrinder, while Neophytes with dual Mining Lasers are cheaper point-wise, and both options allow you to Infiltrate and operate at a superior range-band.
You have the option to move 18" early on, plowing through terrain before you create a zone of exclusion for any light infantry. You get to seriously threaten chaff units that would otherwise block off your own assault vectors or objective strikes, and force other armies to stay mounted up. The Rugged Construction Rule *does* give some minor resilience versus Grav, though that's a fringe bonus considering the paper-thin side armor.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
I actually disagree. If you put a saw (That's got 2d6 pen, yeah?) in every acolyte squad, you could very easily wipe any armor out in one round of combat. With 3 attacks on the charge per saw, you should be getting at least 1 pen per saw. With only 6 HP, you should mulch through a knight pretty reliably with 3-5 acolyte squads. That's not even considering metamorphs with the claw, s6 rending is vicious. Every 6 to pen is a 13 minimum. So, 6 hits is 1 hp, 12 attacks is 1hp. 3 models on the charge is 1hp.
Considering those units are under 80 pts with wargear considered, they're actually pretty good at wrecking superheavies. Hell, if what I've read is right, 5 metamorphs with claws will be like 55/60 pts, so 4 of those have a pretty solid shot at wiping a knight out in one round of combat.
Fliers and psykers are definitely going to be an issue if we play straight GSC. With only two psykers, who can't be duplicated per detachment, we're limited to a max of 4 levels. Of course, Nids can shore this weakness up easily with an allied CAD, as Zoes are some of the more cost efficient ML in the game, and flyrants also provide much needed anti-air.
I think one of our biggest weaknesses will be interceptor Tau with lots of smart missile systems. If GSC end up being popular enough, we might even end up seeing longstrike come into some lists, as his unlimited overwatch assistance could be really painful with TL Smart missiles.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
I actually disagree. If you put a saw (That's got 2d6 pen, yeah?) in every acolyte squad, you could very easily wipe any armor out in one round of combat. With 3 attacks on the charge per saw, you should be getting at least 1 pen per saw. With only 6 HP, you should mulch through a knight pretty reliably with 3-5 acolyte squads. That's not even considering metamorphs with the claw, s6 rending is vicious. Every 6 to pen is a 13 minimum. So, 6 hits is 1 hp, 12 attacks is 1hp. 3 models on the charge is 1hp.
Considering those units are under 80 pts with wargear considered, they're actually pretty good at wrecking superheavies. Hell, if what I've read is right, 5 metamorphs with claws will be like 55/60 pts, so 4 of those have a pretty solid shot at wiping a knight out in one round of combat.
Fliers and psykers are definitely going to be an issue if we play straight GSC. With only two psykers, who can't be duplicated per detachment, we're limited to a max of 4 levels. Of course, Nids can shore this weakness up easily with an allied CAD, as Zoes are some of the more cost efficient ML in the game, and flyrants also provide much needed anti-air.
I think one of our biggest weaknesses will be interceptor Tau with lots of smart missile systems. If GSC end up being popular enough, we might even end up seeing longstrike come into some lists, as his unlimited overwatch assistance could be really painful with TL Smart missiles.
Getting 3-5 UNITS, not just models, into combat with a Knight will be no small feat, unless you are really good at rolling tons of 6's, and have the first turn... far from what I'd consider reliable to take on a Knight, let alone 2 or 3 of them. Knights move 12" and carry weapons that are quite good at wiping out small squads of Hybrids, plus usually have an army to support them.
I agree that Tau Interceptor will be annoying, but thankfully, the pre-game deployment using Cult Ambush wont trigger it, just later uses of it during the game, so I don't think it's really that big of a deal. Flyers will be a big issue, you will pretty much have to ally in Tyranids or IG if you want to handle them head-on. Leman Russ Exterminators might still be scary enough to make a Flyer jink, but that's about it. On the other-hand, maybe flyers wont be much of an issue, since you may be in combat with most of your army on turn 2. I was really pulling for GSC Hydras (and Wyverns), but we can't have it all, can we?
minionboy wrote: Getting 3-5 UNITS, not just models, into combat with a Knight will be no small feat, unless you are really good at rolling tons of 6's, and have the first turn... far from what I'd consider reliable to take on a Knight, let alone 2 or 3 of them. Knights move 12" and carry weapons that are quite good at wiping out small squads of Hybrids, plus usually have an army to support them.
I agree that Tau Interceptor will be annoying, but thankfully, the pre-game deployment using Cult Ambush wont trigger it, just later uses of it during the game, so I don't think it's really that big of a deal. Flyers will be a big issue, you will pretty much have to ally in Tyranids or IG if you want to handle them head-on. Leman Russ Exterminators might still be scary enough to make a Flyer jink, but that's about it. On the other-hand, maybe flyers wont be much of an issue, since you may be in combat with most of your army on turn 2. I was really pulling for GSC Hydras (and Wyverns), but we can't have it all, can we?
I mean, I'm only considering running GSC if I've got 20+ units ambushing at a time, so getting that many into combat shouldn't really be that large of a challenge. Knights' in general are a massive waste of points vs GSC except for smash attacks, and those require it to put itself in danger.
Good point about first deployment, but, still, the ignores cover en masse will be brutal. Fliers aren't all that scary, most people don't bring the weapons that threaten our types of units, we're probably going to be MSU so it'll be hard to not waste shots with overkill, and with our placement abilities, we can definitely strongly impact fliers' ability to get good targets. Flyrants, LOC and Nurgle DP using the flamer template would be rough, but again, with MSU they'll likely be mostly overkilling squads. If a 200-400 pt MC kills 60 pts of GSC troops a turn, good for them?
I just had a revelation... The Cult Insurrection gives all non-vehicle units in the army Infiltrate... Which means, any units you take dedicated transports for, could infiltrate in them. You will be >12" away, but you can still move turn 1. Mind Blown...
Here's another thought. The Demolition Claw doesn't say anything about requiring the Acolytes to deploy in the Rockgrinders, nor does it stop them from taking their Truck dedicated transports. So you could end up with some Tank Hunting Autocannon Goliath Trucks, loaded with tank hunting Acoloytes, and 2 tank hunting Rockgrinders to boot.
That all has me thinking something more like this:
The First Curse Patriarch x1 Level 2 Psyker
Purestrain Genestealers x20
Neophyte Cavalcade Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Leman Russ Exterminator x2 Multi-melta sponsons
Armored Sentinels x2 Autocannons
Demolition Claw Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Goliath Truck x1
Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Goliath Truck x1
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
Considering how important going first will be for this army, has anyone considered taking an callidus assassin? Seems to synergize well regardless. Are there any other options to help get first turn?
Fruzzle wrote: Considering how important going first will be for this army, has anyone considered taking an callidus assassin? Seems to synergize well regardless. Are there any other options to help get first turn?
Coteaz if you don't mind crucifying the fluff gods. Don't take any servo-skulls though if you plan on infiltrating.
minionboy wrote: I just had a revelation... The Cult Insurrection gives all non-vehicle units in the army Infiltrate... Which means, any units you take dedicated transports for, could infiltrate in them. You will be >12" away, but you can still move turn 1. Mind Blown...
Here's another thought. The Demolition Claw doesn't say anything about requiring the Acolytes to deploy in the Rockgrinders, nor does it stop them from taking their Truck dedicated transports. So you could end up with some Tank Hunting Autocannon Goliath Trucks, loaded with tank hunting Acoloytes, and 2 tank hunting Rockgrinders to boot.
That all has me thinking something more like this:
The First Curse Patriarch x1 Level 2 Psyker
Purestrain Genestealers x20
Neophyte Cavalcade Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Leman Russ Exterminator x2 Multi-melta sponsons
Armored Sentinels x2 Autocannons
Demolition Claw Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Goliath Truck x1
Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Goliath Truck x1
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
That's a cool idea - but wouldn't the acolytes in the goliaths not be able to charge t1 due to infiltrating - and if so that defeats a lot of the purpose doesn't it?
Also, we've been missing one piece of info about the demolition claw - you're forced to take demo charges on every unit (though you do get it for free on the goliaths at least), which is a bit of a bummer, as they're not cheap.
Oh, also, if a vehicle with demo charges suffers a penetrating hit, it then suffers another str8 AP2 one...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/01 11:28:52
How expensive are the abberants? I haven't heard much talk on their viability yet. it would seem like they would also be awesome for cracking open armored targets.
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