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 luke1705 wrote:


You can actually return to the shadows first turn if you don't get a 6 result. Since you're setting up during the infiltrate step, you don't count as moving on that turn, and the only way you can't return to the shadows is if someone is within 6" of you (impossible unless they move closer). Of course, if they do, you could always just wait and assault them on turn 2 for sure haha.

So actions that occur during set up agent considered part of the first turn? I was thinking that since you deployed using cult ambush, you couldn't return to shadows on the first turn.

If you can do that first turn still, I guess I'm having a pretty damn hard time coming up with a reason to not take the uprising formation... which sucks for my wallet.

If you deploy a squad of devastators, can you shoot at full ballistic skill first turn?

Similarly, forge world chapter tactics for the raptors include giving scout to models as well as rending bolters if they don't move on a given turn. They can infiltrate AND scout and their bolters still rend on turn 1 because they didn't move in the movement phase. Same with us. If you don't get a good result turn 1, rinse and repeat and come in from ongoing reserves turn 2. Just don't get tabled turn 1

While I agree that that's completely legit RAW at the moment, I can see it being the type of thing ruled against in a future FAQ. As far as I'm aware, units that can hop on and off the board (especially when the way they deploy is special) can't do both in the same turn; Mawlocs for example.

Benlisted wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?

Why choose? Take multiple Primuses so you get several squads rolling 3 dice, that's certainly what I intend to do :p.

The Cult Insurrection limits you to a single Patriarch, Primus, and Magus.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Makes no sense, MSU is literally the best way to play 40k period. Your talking about condensing your army into fewer targets so that you can leave the table for an entire turn in order to randomly regenerate d6 guys that most likely will sit there for another turn. Horrible plan. You want as many targets as possible BECAUSE the units are so delicate, make them overkill the unit.

The Numbers Beyond Counting rule should be used conservatively and considered an additional perk but it should not be changing the way you model your list. But actually the rule also benefits from MSU since you can go to ground more often without worrying about a great deal of points sitting there pinned, and more units equate to more d6 rolls, or more guys. Again though, I'd be hesitant to return to the shadows often since your wasting turns in reserve with an army that does it's heavy lifting in the assault phase. Reserves and assault don't not make good bed fellows, even when considering cult ambush.

I would've agreed with you before I saw that game, but with so many tiny units all over the place, you actually end up obstructing yourself a fair amount - and this was a 1250 game. Units from the subterranean formation(s) have a ~1/3 (11/36) chance to get a 6 when they reappear, so dropping back into the abyss for a turn and regenerating some dudes is a decent strategy when you're out of position. Also, for Acolytes in particular, you're not "hiding" any upgrades when your opponent can just remove the unit wholesale. I don't know that forcing massive overkill is a worthwhile trade-off, except possibly against Tau.

 rollawaythestone wrote:

Benlisted wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?

Why choose? Take multiple Primuses so you get several squads rolling 3 dice, that's certainly what I intend to do :p.

The Cult Insurrection limits you to a single Patriarch, Primus, and Magus.

Yeah, good job, everyone is aware of this. What people are apparently not aware of, is the fact that there's nothing stopping you from taking multiple Detachments, which causes annoying comments like yours to crop up in literally every discussion about Genestealer Cult Lists. Please stop doing that.

Here's a question for you all: let's say a Hybrid squad in a Subterranea Uprising takes a Goliath as a transport. All units in the formation gain infiltrate and MUST do so, using the Cult Ambush. Does this include units that don't actually have that rule, such as the trucks, or units who aren't allowed to use the rule, such as units in trucks?

 jifel wrote:
Here's a question for you all: let's say a Hybrid squad in a Subterranea Uprising takes a Goliath as a transport. All units in the formation gain infiltrate and MUST do so, using the Cult Ambush. Does this include units that don't actually have that rule, such as the trucks, or units who aren't allowed to use the rule, such as units in trucks?

No. A unit that MUST charge but cannot because it arrived from Reserves cannot charge. A unit that MUST set up using Cult Ambush but doesn't have that special rule cannot do so.

So I just played tau....2000pts combing two collection, got slaughter like pigs :p
First not getting first turn is a problem I think if so I should probably null deploy except for out of line of sight stuff. Second be very wary of los as you still need a model in 3 inch so to make look out sirs (He killed everything around the unit to get rid of the first curse.
Also I think tau could be a problem for this army.

 CryonicCenobyte wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:

Benlisted wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?

Why choose? Take multiple Primuses so you get several squads rolling 3 dice, that's certainly what I intend to do :p.

The Cult Insurrection limits you to a single Patriarch, Primus, and Magus.

Yeah, good job, everyone is aware of this. What people are apparently not aware of, is the fact that there's nothing stopping you from taking multiple Detachments, which causes annoying comments like yours to crop up in literally every discussion about Genestealer Cult Lists. Please stop doing that.

Ok chill man. Just because YOU know something doesn't mean that everyone does. People come here for ideas on tactics and lists, not to get berated about something you think they should know

 luke1705 wrote:

 CryonicCenobyte wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:

Benlisted wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?

Why choose? Take multiple Primuses so you get several squads rolling 3 dice, that's certainly what I intend to do :p.

The Cult Insurrection limits you to a single Patriarch, Primus, and Magus.

Yeah, good job, everyone is aware of this. What people are apparently not aware of, is the fact that there's nothing stopping you from taking multiple Detachments, which causes annoying comments like yours to crop up in literally every discussion about Genestealer Cult Lists. Please stop doing that.

Ok chill man. Just because YOU know something doesn't mean that everyone does. People come here for ideas on tactics and lists, not to get berated about something you think they should know

I didn't berate someone for not knowing something, I berated someone for repeating something that we all know already because it's been said approximately 1000 times since the book came out a week ago and every single time misses the obvious fething point that people are just running another Formation or CAD on the side.

 CryonicCenobyte wrote:

I didn't berate someone for not knowing something, I berated someone for repeating something that we all know already because it's been said approximately 1000 times since the book came out a week ago and every single time misses the obvious fething point that people are just running another Formation or CAD on the side.

Ok you're right. My bad. I'll contact the mods and let them know that rollawaythestone isn't keeping up with toy soldiers to your personal standards. May God have mercy on his soul.

 CryonicCenobyte wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:

Benlisted wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?

Why choose? Take multiple Primuses so you get several squads rolling 3 dice, that's certainly what I intend to do :p.

The Cult Insurrection limits you to a single Patriarch, Primus, and Magus.

Yeah, good job, everyone is aware of this. What people are apparently not aware of, is the fact that there's nothing stopping you from taking multiple Detachments, which causes annoying comments like yours to crop up in literally every discussion about Genestealer Cult Lists. Please stop doing that.

What rule is "be polite?" Is that #1? I think it's 1.

Anyway, moving on from things people should have learned in 3rd grade, I'm wondering how to properly equip these squads with upgrades. When I built my army, I started out with the formations that I wanted to use and then just added the upgrades as I had points for them, which was not a lot TBH. Is there a way to protect a squad with say 8 rock saws? Because it's pretty unique that we could have a unit of 20 guys that have 8 chainfists, or something like that. Clearly overkill for literally anything, but how do we protect a squad that has 2 or 4 heavy hitters? I feel like focus fire would just bring them down.

 luke1705 wrote:
Anyway, moving on from things people should have learned in 3rd grade, I'm wondering how to properly equip these squads with upgrades. When I built my army, I started out with the formations that I wanted to use and then just added the upgrades as I had points for them, which was not a lot TBH. Is there a way to protect a squad with say 8 rock saws? Because it's pretty unique that we could have a unit of 20 guys that have 8 chainfists, or something like that. Clearly overkill for literally anything, but how do we protect a squad that has 2 or 4 heavy hitters? I feel like focus fire would just bring them down.

The only thing I can think of is maby an iconward for fnp and pray for a 6 on the chart or for your warlord trait. We really have no way of protecting a unit that large. I feel that cheap 10 man units are the way to go. Big enough not to casually get defeated but small enough to hide if your ambush roll goes badly. Also just don't pay for upgrades pay for psychers and summoned the units with all the upgrades.

I think units of 7-10, with no more than 2-3 expensive upgrades per squad, are going to be optimal as a general rule for the codex. Cheaper upgrades like flamers may be worth it on the entire squad, depending on the squad's role.

In particular you want at least 7 so you don't feel you've wasted your bonus free dudes when you roll a "6" on how many are coming back from the dead.

Yeah, I think the principal reason they can take so many special weapons is that it would be largely impractical ever to use them. Gsc heavy weapons suffer from the same issue ork power klaws do- the upgrade is only as reliable as the body holding it, and beyond turn 1 shrouded GSC don't have good defensive buffs.

If I'm going to be taking unwieldy high strength weaponry, I think I'll be reaching for small squads of Aberrants backed up by an icon ward. That will at least be able to stand up to small arms and won't get taken down in swathes by flamers.

I think acolyte squads for me are going to stay cheap and small, and I'll lean on their naturally cost-effective melee statline to keep them a threat.

The summoning power is a real gem.

with the WC 3 version you can summon a squad of

10 Acolytes 3 Rocksaws, 1 Demo charge, Leader w LW/BS, Icon bearer, all (except the Rocksaws and demo charge) with hand flamers. Thats 245pts if I'm remembering correctly and it cult infiltrates to boot.

Imagine doing this 3 time in a game ......

Now I know you will say it's only one in 6 to get the power but with the crouchling you have a better than 50% to get it and many people are taking an extra Min troop CAD to grab an extra pair of Magus or Patriarch which is more chances to get it. None of the powers are bad even so if you fish for Summoning and don't get it it's no real loss.

Timeshadow wrote:
The summoning power is a real gem.

with the WC 3 version you can summon a squad of

10 Acolytes 3 Rocksaws, 1 Demo charge, Leader w LW/BS, Icon bearer, all (except the Rocksaws and demo charge) with hand flamers. Thats 245pts if I'm remembering correctly and it cult infiltrates to boot.

Imagine doing this 3 time in a game ......

Now I know you will say it's only one in 6 to get the power but with the crouchling you have a better than 50% to get it and many people are taking an extra Min troop CAD to grab an extra pair of Magus or Patriarch which is more chances to get it. None of the powers are bad even so if you fish for Summoning and don't get it it's no real loss.

Yeah I'm thinking that this is a real gem of a discipline. Fishing for invis is nice but you could definitely not get it, and everything except for 1 power on broodmind is good.

I brought a side CAD to get 2 more ML (patriarch) and I may be able to make room for a magus in the detachment to get another 3 WC. I do believe, however, that a second primus is too good to pass up on. Hatred and that third roll for the subterranean assault formation is amazing. Definitely won me the first game I played. Hmmm points.....

 luke1705 wrote:

Timeshadow wrote:
The summoning power is a real gem.

with the WC 3 version you can summon a squad of

10 Acolytes 3 Rocksaws, 1 Demo charge, Leader w LW/BS, Icon bearer, all (except the Rocksaws and demo charge) with hand flamers. Thats 245pts if I'm remembering correctly and it cult infiltrates to boot.

Imagine doing this 3 time in a game ......

Now I know you will say it's only one in 6 to get the power but with the crouchling you have a better than 50% to get it and many people are taking an extra Min troop CAD to grab an extra pair of Magus or Patriarch which is more chances to get it. None of the powers are bad even so if you fish for Summoning and don't get it it's no real loss.

Yeah I'm thinking that this is a real gem of a discipline. Fishing for invis is nice but you could definitely not get it, and everything except for 1 power on broodmind is good.

I brought a side CAD to get 2 more ML (patriarch) and I may be able to make room for a magus in the detachment to get another 3 WC. I do believe, however, that a second primus is too good to pass up on. Hatred and that third roll for the subterranean assault formation is amazing. Definitely won me the first game I played. Hmmm points.....

Skimp on upgrades to get a few extra points for the Magus and hope to summon the units with the upgrades?

My issue with fishing for a summons, is that it isn't a great thing to go for if you are using the Cult Insurrection Detachment, as generally you only get a max of 4 warp charges, and against any list with decent amount of Psy you are risking getting counted (on the basis you are getting enough dice in the psy phase to pull it off)

Generally you just go for CADs and/or formations for a summon list.

did see on another forum an 1850 summon list that just consisted of multiple Cads with Neophytes and Magus

 Red Corsair wrote:
Makes no sense, MSU is literally the best way to play 40k period. Your talking about condensing your army into fewer targets so that you can leave the table for an entire turn in order to randomly regenerate d6 guys that most likely will sit there for another turn. Horrible plan. You want as many targets as possible BECAUSE the units are so delicate, make them overkill the unit.

The Numbers Beyond Counting rule should be used conservatively and considered an additional perk but it should not be changing the way you model your list. But actually the rule also benefits from MSU since you can go to ground more often without worrying about a great deal of points sitting there pinned, and more units equate to more d6 rolls, or more guys. Again though, I'd be hesitant to return to the shadows often since your wasting turns in reserve with an army that does it's heavy lifting in the assault phase. Reserves and assault don't not make good bed fellows, even when considering cult ambush.

I have to agree with this. Basically, Return to the Shadows strikes me as something to be used in a certain number of situations.

First - A Bad Turn One - you get no results that let you get close enough to assault or you lose the initiative and end up getting chunks taken out of your units. In this case you dip out, get your 1D6 models back and hope for the best on your second attempt to ambush.

Second - Objective Shenanigans - this requires some forward planning. Basically on Turn 4 you want to be able to safely dip out a few units to gamble them cropping back up on top of objectives if you can, or at least close enough to contest them. Best units for this are your backliners who would never get close enough in the first place.

Third - MSU recovery phase. MSU is great because it's a saturation of threats which forces your enemy to pick and choose. Cults can get away with some padding cause. let's face it, we're fragile. I'd say this is the least viable use of Returning in the Cult Insurrection detachment unless you really want to deny kill points or something like that - in which case, chances are you are pulling off units with 1 or 2 models remaining and hoping for a nice D6 roll to get back toward full strength.


First seems to be similar to Third, but also our answer to Alpha strike armies. Seize the Initiative is something we have to be crazily aware of in particular and maybe something that should make us deploy a bit more defensively where we can. (Because seriously, the units you have that you are going to likely be going aggro with are Purestrains, Acolytes and Metamorphs, all of whom get Shrouded first turn from the cult insurrection detachment due to having Infiltrate already -for the Acolytes it's from Subterranean uprising. Don't know why you'd field anything else for Acolytes!) Having initiative seized by Tau or Eldar would seriously ruin our day.

Now, I can see the benefit of having some 'bigger' units...

Mainly if you plan on using the unit as a bodyguard unit of sorts for a character. Unquestioning loyalty is a nasty ability for sure. Especially as you can pick and choose the wounds to LOS as well. Does it cause instant death or some other horrible debilitating effect cause your enemy rolled the 6 to wound/on the D chart/etc? Guess generic Neophyte number 2125454545 gets to eat that one.

20 Purestrains sounds costly but when you stick a Patriarch in there...that's 20 free wounds with a 5+ invuln save to fob stuff off to.

At which point you may as well not have taken 20 Purestrains as part of a Brood Cycle. Seriously, take 5 there. Treat it as a tax.

If you're taking a blob of 20 Purestrains as a Patriarch bodyguard just man up and take First Curse. That way the Purestrains get a buff for their being that many.

the main issue with the Return to the Shadows, is that if your opponent plays well, you wont get many chances to use it effectively as you need to be more then 6" away from an enemy model.

It is great for 1st turn if you want to do a kinda 2 wave attack with Cult ambush, but I predict you wont get a great deal of use from it during a game unless you manage to wipe out a flank

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


20 Purestrains sounds costly but when you stick a Patriarch in there...that's 20 free wounds with a 5+ invuln save to fob stuff off to.

At which point you may as well not have taken 20 Purestrains as part of a Brood Cycle. Seriously, take 5 there. Treat it as a tax.

If you're taking a blob of 20 Purestrains as a Patriarch bodyguard just man up and take First Curse. That way the Purestrains get a buff for their being that many.

I actually disagree. While I like the First Curse formation a lot, and would take multiple within a Cult Insurrection Detachment if I could, I think that maxing out the squad inside the brood cycle is substantially better than taking a second first curse outside of the mega detachment. For the first curse, you get: random mutation. Inside brood cycle, you get: WS 7 if within 6" of one of the 17 other units from Brood Cycle, shrouded turn 1 and coming back with d6 more guys if you lose some and need to re-deploy. This is especially valuable since most good opponents will try to focus them down if they can, and the first two times I've played with that squad.....rolled a 1 on cult ambush turn 1 :/ I know that's situational but it happens to them more than most other units as they have no form of mitigating a bad roll (in my list, my warlord patriarch is with the first curse formation inside the mega detachment, so I won't ever even get the warlord trait result)

Should clarify though - there's no reason not to take first curse if you are taking 20 stealers. Patriarch is an auto include in any army list IMO. My comment was for taking a SECOND first curse haha. First First Curse is always good

Okay new thing to think about,

How do people feel utilizing Overkill GSC with their GSC army?

 luke1705 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


20 Purestrains sounds costly but when you stick a Patriarch in there...that's 20 free wounds with a 5+ invuln save to fob stuff off to.

At which point you may as well not have taken 20 Purestrains as part of a Brood Cycle. Seriously, take 5 there. Treat it as a tax.

If you're taking a blob of 20 Purestrains as a Patriarch bodyguard just man up and take First Curse. That way the Purestrains get a buff for their being that many.

I actually disagree. While I like the First Curse formation a lot, and would take multiple within a Cult Insurrection Detachment if I could, I think that maxing out the squad inside the brood cycle is substantially better than taking a second first curse outside of the mega detachment. For the first curse, you get: random mutation. Inside brood cycle, you get: WS 7 if within 6" of one of the 17 other units from Brood Cycle, shrouded turn 1 and coming back with d6 more guys if you lose some and need to re-deploy. This is especially valuable since most good opponents will try to focus them down if they can, and the first two times I've played with that squad.....rolled a 1 on cult ambush turn 1 :/ I know that's situational but it happens to them more than most other units as they have no form of mitigating a bad roll (in my list, my warlord patriarch is with the first curse formation inside the mega detachment, so I won't ever even get the warlord trait result)

Should clarify though - there's no reason not to take first curse if you are taking 20 stealers. Patriarch is an auto include in any army list IMO. My comment was for taking a SECOND first curse haha. First First Curse is always good

Thought as much. Seems you got a bit confused.

I'd still rather take Purestrains either as Scuttlers or as First Curse. Too much tax with the Brood Cycle subtracting from the numbers I can take in my Subterranean Uprising.

I've been wrestling around with the different formations for a while now and am tentatively looking at the following for my 2k list

Cult Insurrection Detachment

The First Curse (405)
1 Patriarch /w ML2, 2x Familiar (125)
20 Purestrain Genestealers (280)

Brood Cycle (600)
1 Acolyte Iconward (65)
5 Acolyte Hybrids (40)
5 Acolyte Hybrids (40)
5 Acolyte Hybrids (40)
10 Hybrid Neophytes /w 2x Grenade Launcher, 2x Mining Laser (90)
10 Hybrid Neophytes /w 2x Grenade Launcher, 2x Mining Laser (90)
5 Hybrid Metamorphs (45)
5 Purestrain Genestealers (70)
4 Aberrants /w 2x Power Pick, 2x Power Hammer (120)

Subterranean Uprising (255)
1 Primus (75)
10 Hybrid Metamorphs /w 5 Metamorph Whips (100)
5 Acolyte Hybrids (40)
5 Acolyte Hybrids (40)

The Doting Throng (400)
1 Magus /w ML2, The Crouchling (85)
11 Hybrid Neophytes /w 2x Grenade Launcher, 2x Seismic Cannon (105)
10 Hybrid Neophytes /w 2x Grenade Launcher, 1 Autocannon (70)
10 Hybrid Neophytes /w 2x Grenade Launcher, 1 Autocannon (70)
10 Hybrid Neophytes /w 2x Grenade Launcher, 1 Autocannon (70)

Demolition Claw (340)
5 Hybrid Acolytes /w 1x Demolition Charge, 1x Heavy Rock Saw (85)
5 Hybrid Acolytes /w 1x Demolition Charge, 1x Heavy Rock Saw (85)
1 Goliath Rockgrinder /w Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges (85)
1 Goliath Rockgrinder /w Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges (85)



This more or less gives me all of the toys I want, has 16 infantry units that can Cult Ambush and hopefully enough redundancy to cover the loss of any one formation. It's a little light on AA, which is why I've brought some Autocannon/Grenade Launcher PDF Neophytes along for the ride (and if we get Relentless then the Seismic Cannon unit is a great target for that.

The only unit I've not gone minimalist on is the Primus' unit of Metamorphs; this is one unit I want to be able to absorb a bit of overwatch and ensure it has enough numbers to survive a turn of shooting (as much as possible) and Return to the Shadows to replenish itself. I'm also sold on the whips rather than the claws. Initiative 7 is awesome, and wit their silly number of attacks I am thinking they can handle a lot of enemies before they even get hit.

The Demolition Claw is the one part I am a bit up in the air on. It's an amazingly cool concept (the grin on the Hybrid's face with the explosives is just so Crazy Ivan from Red Alert 2...) but just having two tanks in such a big list puts a massive target on them (the Rockgrinders won't get infiltrate, right?). They could be swapped for a number of non-vehicle units...

- Additional Autocannon Neophytes?
- More Metamorphs (with Claws this time) for the Uprising?
- Aberrants for the Uprising?
- Bulking out all the Acolyte units a bit?

I don't like the Aberrants, they are the most fragile thing in a codex full of fragile things.

Also I don't like the Demolition Claw because, as you said, they are a very obvious target .

Similarly, the Genestealers are a very obvious target, although I guess with cover/gtg/fearless shenanigans they can survive first turn.

Maybe some heavy ccws in the Acolytes for melee anti-armor?

The issue I have with demo claw

Is that you only really get a benefit from it by having the duders next to the trucks (and some duders in them)
but they are not fast vehicles and/or don't infiltrate and unless you are packing a Leman Russ or two they are the target for all anti tank

GodDamUser wrote:
Okay new thing to think about,

How do people feel utilizing Overkill GSC with their GSC army?

Hopefully they feel good about it, I just bought Overkill for the GSC models!

I also am nearly done painting my first Goliath truck. I'm starting to balk at the volume of models needed for this army given the dollar cost of the kits. Is there a "non-horde" way to run this army effectively?