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 Red Corsair wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:
It's such a bummer when you roll the '6' on your 10 man Neophyte units.
But when in my second game I rolled it on my First Curse, oh boy... I went second, but a ruin in my opponent's deployment zone + Shroud and threat overload saw them through the heat, and they cleared out the enemy defense lines.
Broodmind spell #1 helps too (run and charge).

This is why you should take a power maul on your leader. A leader charging a rear armor 10 tank has a decent shot at causing damage before it gets to move or shoot.

I've definitely spent some brain power on what to do with the Neophyte units in my Brood Cycle. I don't want to treat them as a 'tax', and I'd like to make them more useful than a designated objective sitter. But the heavy weapons options don't seem like enough to make them a good sit and shoot unit, especially considering they won't be shooting any turn that they're ambushing. And for those turns you roll the '6', it's such a waste to just deploy them out of the way. So is it maybe better to look at them as opportunity assaulters?

If you're deploying units near one another for mutual support -- and I think 'bubble' management is key -- you have a chance of getting some combination of furious change, hatred, +1WS and fearless on those charging Neophytes (and maybe another +1WS if you take an icon), plus the possibility of psychic support (mass hypnosis, might from beyond, etc.). With a pick or maul on the leader, they still aren't exactly fearsome in assaults, but there's stuff in the game they could take care of, including vehicles.

I think I'm going to give an 7 shotgun/2 flamer/icon/power pick build a try in an upcoming game.

 gorgon wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:
It's such a bummer when you roll the '6' on your 10 man Neophyte units.
But when in my second game I rolled it on my First Curse, oh boy... I went second, but a ruin in my opponent's deployment zone + Shroud and threat overload saw them through the heat, and they cleared out the enemy defense lines.
Broodmind spell #1 helps too (run and charge).

This is why you should take a power maul on your leader. A leader charging a rear armor 10 tank has a decent shot at causing damage before it gets to move or shoot.

I've definitely spent some brain power on what to do with the Neophyte units in my Brood Cycle. I don't want to treat them as a 'tax', and I'd like to make them more useful than a designated objective sitter. But the heavy weapons options don't seem like enough to make them a good sit and shoot unit, especially considering they won't be shooting any turn that they're ambushing. And for those turns you roll the '6', it's such a waste to just deploy them out of the way. So is it maybe better to look at them as opportunity assaulters?

If you're deploying units near one another for mutual support -- and I think 'bubble' management is key -- you have a chance of getting some combination of furious change, hatred, +1WS and fearless on those charging Neophytes (and maybe another +1WS if you take an icon), plus the possibility of psychic support (mass hypnosis, might from beyond, etc.). With a pick or maul on the leader, they still aren't exactly fearsome in assaults, but there's stuff in the game they could take care of, including vehicles.

I think I'm going to give an 7 shotgun/2 flamer/icon/power pick build a try in an upcoming game.

you could also use them for overwatch redirection

Agreed.

I feel like Neophyte shooting is underrated. 2 mining lasers and 2 grenade launchers is a good amount of firepower for 90 points. Seismic cannons can also make good use of Cult Ambush since you can readily deploy within 12" of your chosen target. It kind of sucks to "waste" an ambush 6 on deploying wherever rather than assaulting, but everything else in the army is just plain better at combat and by quite some margin. I'd definitely rather plunk my Neophytes down on a objective or have them blast away at close range than deliberately throw the into the fray.

I had some good luck with Neophyte shooting. But it was mostly about massed autoguns at 12" rather than the heavies, since those ceased being an option everytime I moved or cycled them. And other than turn 1, the heavies never really have the chance to benefit from a 5 result anyway. Meanwhile all those potential assault buffs go to waste as the unit just stands there. Which got me thinking about running shotguns and flamers, giving me similar firepower in many instances, but with shoot and assault options when I get the 6.

Context is important, of course. In my case I'm running Brood Cycle and only 2 Neophyte units, and everything else in my army that isn't a vehicle wants to assault and cycle. They're fine starring the role of chaos cultists and sitting on a spot. But I'd like to see if I can squeeze more utility out of them.

 gorgon wrote:
I had some good luck with Neophyte shooting. But it was mostly about massed autoguns at 12" rather than the heavies, since those ceased being an option everytime I moved or cycled them. And other than turn 1, the heavies never really have the chance to benefit from a 5 result anyway. Meanwhile all those potential assault buffs go to waste as the unit just stands there. Which got me thinking about running shotguns and flamers, giving me similar firepower in many instances, but with shoot and assault options when I get the 6.

Context is important, of course. In my case I'm running Brood Cycle and only 2 Neophyte units, and everything else in my army that isn't a vehicle wants to assault and cycle. They're fine starring the role of chaos cultists and sitting on a spot. But I'd like to see if I can squeeze more utility out of them.

My friends and I have had a little discussion on Heavy weapons being deployed using the Ambush special rule. Heavy weapons shoot at normal BS unless they have moved in the moving phase. However, on a 3+ the wording on Ambush is "Set up" the unit. Obviously this is a RAW discussion but 'setting up' and moving is completely different in reference to the rules. On a 1 or a 2, they deploy as normal/outflank - which RAW count as moving.

As for RAI or fluffy, the GSC come out of the shadows (out of reserves). Who knows how long they have been there or when they got there. The heavy weapons never necessarily moved - they appeared (they set up).

TLR; A result of 3+ on the Ambush chart allows Heavy weapons from Neophytes to shoot at Full BS (in my opinion).

Just some food for thought!

There may be a RAW argument, but I suspect that will be clarified the other way when we get the FAQ.

They're fine starring the role of chaos cultists and sitting on a spot. But I'd like to see if I can squeeze more utility out of them

Fair enough. In that case, you're probably best leaving the leader at home. I don't think 25pts is worth an okay chance to damage vehicles and some extra oomph against marines when the alternative is 5 more guys. With 2 flamers and some shotguns, you should have yourself a handy little inexpensive assault unit. As you said, make sure you keep them in range of all the perk bubbles you can. 5 pts for a WS5, S4 model with rerolls isn't trivial, by any means!

Neophyte shooting isn't too impressive. Yesterday, got that '5' on CA, deployed 18 Neophytes inlcuding 1 mining laser and 2 grenade launchers within rapid fire range of 3 Scatbikes in the open. After saves, zero wounds. I had to use RttS to get the heck out of there, so it was only one round of shooting before turn 1 and below average dice, but still, not a confidence builder.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:
It's such a bummer when you roll the '6' on your 10 man Neophyte units.
But when in my second game I rolled it on my First Curse, oh boy... I went second, but a ruin in my opponent's deployment zone + Shroud and threat overload saw them through the heat, and they cleared out the enemy defense lines.
Broodmind spell #1 helps too (run and charge).

This is why you should take a power maul on your leader. A leader charging a rear armor 10 tank has a decent shot at causing damage before it gets to move or shoot.

10+15pts to get S5 on a dude with WS3? Pass.

I'm leaning towards getting a few more bodies and use my two Neophyte units as pure bodyguard units for Magus and Iconward.

I consider Neophytes are more for light anti-tank with grenades launchers and an autocannon to open enemy transports so the squishy guys inside can be assaulted by the rest of the army.

Also if you summon them, I believe they are the best of the wc2 options as you can give them all the upgrades for free.

You could also use neophytes as anti air, be getting a missile launcher team with the anti air missile

MilkmanAl wrote:

They're fine starring the role of chaos cultists and sitting on a spot. But I'd like to see if I can squeeze more utility out of them

Fair enough. In that case, you're probably best leaving the leader at home. I don't think 25pts is worth an okay chance to damage vehicles and some extra oomph against marines when the alternative is 5 more guys. With 2 flamers and some shotguns, you should have yourself a handy little inexpensive assault unit. As you said, make sure you keep them in range of all the perk bubbles you can. 5 pts for a WS5, S4 model with rerolls isn't trivial, by any means!

You're probably right about the leader. It makes much more sense to go bigger with the unit in that case.

Im looking to fit 60 stealers in a list and came up with this.
Viable you think?

+++ New Roster (1490pts) +++

++ Genestealer Cults - Codex (GC Cult Insurrection) ++

+ Core +

Neophyte Cavalcade
····Armoured Sentinels
········Armoured Sentinel [Autocannon]
····Leman Russ Squadron
········Leman Russ [Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter]
····Neophyte Hybrids [10x Neophyte Hybrid]
········Chimera [Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter]
····Neophyte Hybrids [10x Neophyte Hybrid]
········Chimera [Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter]

+ Auxiliary +

Shadow Skulkers
····Purestrain Genestealers [10x Purestrain Genestealer]

Shadow Skulkers
····Purestrain Genestealers [10x Purestrain Genestealer]

Shadow Skulkers
····Purestrain Genestealers [10x Purestrain Genestealer]

Shadow Skulkers
····Purestrain Genestealers [5x Purestrain Genestealer]

++ Genestealer Cults - Codex (Formation Detachment) ++

+ Formation +

Broodcoven
····Magus [Mastery Level 1]
····Patriarch [Mastery Level 1]
····Primus [Bone Sword]

The First Curse
····Patriarch [Mastery Level 1]
····Purestrain Genestealers [20x Purestrain Genestealer]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

RAW if "Set Up" via Cult Ambush works the same as "Set Up" via deployment or Infiltrate in the rules, the neophyte units may fire their weapons on a 3+. It isn't a concrete ruling, but there is precedent for it in the BRB.

I believe the argument that Saythings was advancing was regarding coming out of reserves, not deployment. Results 3 to 6 don't specifically mention the unit as having 'moved.'

Having said that, I doubt the designers intended units to be able to blaze away with heavies when they enter from reserves. Cult Ambush is already kind of bonkers at times.

I think the_scotsman, gorgon, and myself are all saying the same thing.

The wording "Set-up" has precedent in the BRB to allow the Neophytes to shoot their Heavy weapons at BS3 at a 3 or higher on the CS special rule.

I don't see how a special rule that allows assaulting out of reserve would be a far stretch to allow 2 Heavy weapons to be shot at full BS. This is definitely a RAW/RAI debate. But I, as well as my gaming group, play RAW unless FAQ'd by GW or the TO at an event we attend.

I only posted it to see what the community might have to say about it. Hell, there might even be people that play how I do (RAW) and just overlooked the "set up" wording. In short - I wanted to open a few eyes.

terry wrote:You could also use neophytes as anti air, be getting a missile launcher team with the anti air missile

You could - thing is, 4 flakk teams is as expensive as a quadgun on an aegis and is the same number of shots. Only with a quadgun, you have twin-linked and are able to stick a BS4 magos on it. So better for anti-air imo!

NIB wrote:10+15pts to get S5 on a dude with WS3? Pass.

I'm leaning towards getting a few more bodies and use my two Neophyte units as pure bodyguard units for Magus and Iconward.

I agree, and that's why my neophyte leader is magged so I can swap it out for a normal neophyte unless I summon a unit. People in this thread seem to be falling for sunk cost fallacy quite a lot - just because you roll a 6 for a neophyte unit doesn't mean you need to charge headlong into the fray! You can perfectly well just use it to position them wherever you want. I'm leaning towards just bulking up the size of the neophyte units a bit - the heavy mining weapons are good but pricey? I might just stick in an autocannon per or a pair of special weapons or something, just to keep em cheap.

People in this thread seem to be falling for sunk cost fallacy quite a lot - just because you roll a 6 for a neophyte unit doesn't mean you need to charge headlong into the fray!

I agree completely, but I think gorgon was mainly trying to figure out how to have a Neophyte unit that was useful for both assault and (close-range) shooting, in case you did get that 6. It's a worthy cause, considering that you have to have a couple units of them if you're running a Cultcurion.

I'm still fairly sold on Neophytes being shooty units. A 6 on the ambush roll will basically just mean they get to roadblock a deathstar or something while they blast away. Mining lasers and seismic cannons are both solid options, in my opinion, even though they can get pricy. When you have a bajillion of them, BS3 doesn't matter nearly as much.

MilkmanAl wrote:

People in this thread seem to be falling for sunk cost fallacy quite a lot - just because you roll a 6 for a neophyte unit doesn't mean you need to charge headlong into the fray!

I agree completely, but I think gorgon was mainly trying to figure out how to have a Neophyte unit that was useful for both assault and (close-range) shooting, in case you did get that 6. It's a worthy cause, considering that you have to have a couple units of them if you're running a Cultcurion.

I'm still fairly sold on Neophytes being shooty units. A 6 on the ambush roll will basically just mean they get to roadblock a deathstar or something while they blast away. Mining lasers and seismic cannons are both solid options, in my opinion, even though they can get pricy. When you have a bajillion of them, BS3 doesn't matter nearly as much.

Oh yeah that does make sense - I'm glad the discussion prompted me to think about it tbh. I think just using them as an overwatch sink if you roll the 6 is perfectly fine - your other units are by far more valuable and are just as squishy to overwatch shooting. No need for the leader or icon.

In general they are clearly shooty though. I really like seismic cannons, and assuming you interpret the rule as discussed above, a squad of 2 and 2 nade launchers can really lay on the hurt after ambushing. But that's 100 points, and I feel that just 2 special weapons, an autocannon team, or maybe evn heavy stubbers (though they're anti-infantry and we don't exactly need that) give them some solid firepower whilst being substantially cheaper.

Yeah, it's not really a quest on my part to find what's 'optimal', if that's even a destination that can be found. I'm not planning on attending any big tournaments these days. I've just been so-so about my Neophyte shooting, and it doesn't feel 'right' in the context of the rest of my otherwise aggressive army to have to decide between shooting OR assaulting when I could do some of both and benefit from some of the tasty assault buff bubbles.

 gorgon wrote:
Yeah, it's not really a quest on my part to find what's 'optimal', if that's even a destination that can be found. I'm not planning on attending any big tournaments these days. I've just been so-so about my Neophyte shooting, and it doesn't feel 'right' in the context of the rest of my otherwise aggressive army to have to decide between shooting OR assaulting when I could do some of both and benefit from some of the tasty assault buff bubbles.

While understandable, the majority of the benefits from the acolyte squads are getting 4 str 5 attacks per model that can be at WS 5, re-rolling to hits and rending. Not to mention the +1 str and rage power if for some ungodly reason that's not good enough.

Contrast this with the neophytes. Less attacks, str 4, ws 4 most likely...you're losing 15 percent of your hits and then an additional 17 percent of your wounds and the squad puts out 50 % less attacks in the first place, though they do have twice as many models. So per squad (5 man acolyte vs 10 man neophyte) on average, vs MEQ:

Acolytes attack 20 times, hitting 17.7 times with hatred. With strength 5 on the charge, they wound 11.8 times, meaning 2 rended marines and 3 failed armor saves. On average.

Neophytes shoot their shotguns, hitting 10 times and wounding 5, causing 1.5 marines to die. They charge in with 20 attacks that hit 15 times, wounding 7.5 times, causing 2.5 failed saves. So 10 more points invested in the squad gets you 1 more alive marine. That was kind of surprising TBH. I guess they're not that much worse than acolytes. The squad does cost 10 more points, so I could dock 1/5 of their damage output, putting it closer to 3.2 dead marines vs 5 from the acolytes.

I think the best way to run the compulsive neophyte squads is to keep them in the back lines grabbing objectives, hopping in and out of ongoing reserves so that you always have squads that can contest or claim objectives. Therefore, I'm not going to upgrade them. Quantity over quality in my cult.

 gorgon wrote:
I had some good luck with Neophyte shooting. But it was mostly about massed autoguns at 12" rather than the heavies, since those ceased being an option everytime I moved or cycled them. And other than turn 1, the heavies never really have the chance to benefit from a 5 result anyway. Meanwhile all those potential assault buffs go to waste as the unit just stands there. Which got me thinking about running shotguns and flamers, giving me similar firepower in many instances, but with shoot and assault options when I get the 6.

Context is important, of course. In my case I'm running Brood Cycle and only 2 Neophyte units, and everything else in my army that isn't a vehicle wants to assault and cycle. They're fine starring the role of chaos cultists and sitting on a spot. But I'd like to see if I can squeeze more utility out of them.

An important thing to consider with 6 result neophytes Ive found is chaff for your assault units, the 3" near guaranteed charge means that they are an EXCELLENT unit to charge into say a shooty unit, or a unit with flamers to take overwatch, as even with a large amount of casualties, there is a high likelyhood they will still reach b2b and tie up the unit so your real assaulters can come in unhindered. I got lucky one game with a 6 on a 10 man neophyte unit with shotguns, and they managed to absorb 2 riptides overwatch and still reach B2B of both, allowing my hybrids to go in unhindered and whipe them off the board turn 1

 luke1705 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Yeah, it's not really a quest on my part to find what's 'optimal', if that's even a destination that can be found. I'm not planning on attending any big tournaments these days. I've just been so-so about my Neophyte shooting, and it doesn't feel 'right' in the context of the rest of my otherwise aggressive army to have to decide between shooting OR assaulting when I could do some of both and benefit from some of the tasty assault buff bubbles.

While understandable, the majority of the benefits from the acolyte squads are getting 4 str 5 attacks per model that can be at WS 5, re-rolling to hits and rending. Not to mention the +1 str and rage power if for some ungodly reason that's not good enough.


I think the best way to run the compulsive neophyte squads is to keep them in the back lines grabbing objectives, hopping in and out of ongoing reserves so that you always have squads that can contest or claim objectives. Therefore, I'm not going to upgrade them. Quantity over quality in my cult.

How are you getting 5 attacks per model on the Acolytes? I can a only se you getting 4 max on the chargeon a bare bones 5 man squad... % only with the psycic power with rage or in a unit with the iconwrad. would you get 5.

I have a question on dedicated transports and the Brood Cycle:

I believe if I read this right my Acolytes confer infiltrate to my Goliath, which then allows me to Cult Ambush while embarked correct?
If I bring Goliaths for my Acolytes, do they get the Familial Pride bonus after disembarking?
Also can my Goliaths return to the shadows after dropping off units? Or is this just wishful thinking?

What do you guys think are the biggest "bang for your buck" unit options for when you roll Telepathic Summons? Since we get all the free gear we want, we don't need to worry about points efficiency and such. Obiously for Acolytes, Neophytes & Metamorphs it boils down to which options are best for your opposition.

I'm thinking having options depending on your opponent is a good idea. Things like 10/20 Neophytes with Grenade Launchers & Mining Lasers or Seismic Cannons if you need to drop a lot of vehicles, or 10/20 Neophytes with Flamers and Heavy Stubbers if you are facing hordes like Orks or Gaunt spam. Leaders would always carry full loadouts of bolt/web pistol and power maul/pick. And of course and Icon.

Acolytes would go 5/10 with Rock Saws, Rock Cutters or Demo Charges depending on whether you are facing vehicles (Saws), multi-wound models/monstrous creatures (Cutters) or hordes (Demo Charges). I really don't see much point in taking Rock Drills. Hand Flamers all around might not be a bad idea - lower range, but much higher threat potential. Leaders take Lash Whip & Bonesword, unless you are already higher Initiative than the majority of your foes, in which case the Hand Flamer is a good choice instead of the Lash Whip. Icon is a must of course.

Metamorphs I would go with either all whips or all claws depending on whether I think I need the Initiative or Strength bonus, and again would consider Hand Flamers, and the Leader should always take the Bone Sword. And why wouldn't you add an Icon?

Then we get to the other options. I think 8 Purestrains is less flexible than the Acolyte, Neophyte and Metamorph options, but when you need something Rended to death in short order, 8 of these buggers can lay out a LOT of hurt, while being a bit more resilient at the same time (due to higher T and 5++ save.) Obviously, since we don't have to pay for the upgrades, they should ALL have Scything Talons.

I believe the Aberrants, unfortunately, are completely overshadowed by the other WC 3 options, unless you really want some high Strength Attacks. I think the mass of Rending tends to outweigh this though, especially the S6 Metamorph Claws that can be boosted to S7 if you get Furious Charge on them by one of the many possible means.

Morris782 wrote:
I have a question on dedicated transports and the Brood Cycle:

I believe if I read this right my Acolytes confer infiltrate to my Goliath, which then allows me to Cult Ambush while embarked correct?
If I bring Goliaths for my Acolytes, do they get the Familial Pride bonus after disembarking?
Also can my Goliaths return to the shadows after dropping off units? Or is this just wishful thinking?

They confer infiltrate to their dedicated transports yes, but the goliaths must have the cult ambush or return to the shadows rules to utilize them.

Morris782 wrote:
I have a question on dedicated transports and the Brood Cycle:

I believe if I read this right my Acolytes confer infiltrate to my Goliath, which then allows me to Cult Ambush while embarked correct?
If I bring Goliaths for my Acolytes, do they get the Familial Pride bonus after disembarking?
Also can my Goliaths return to the shadows after dropping off units? Or is this just wishful thinking?

Goliaths (and other transports) don't have the Cult Ambush or Return to the Shadows special rules, and those rules are not conferred to them by their transported units nor by the Infiltrate rule. In addition, units embarked on a Transport are expressly disallowed from using the Cult Ambush and Return to the Shadows special rules. Vehicles basically don't get to have any of the fun. (Except Sentinels in a Neophyte Cavalcade, who can Cult Ambush, but not Return to the Shadows.)

Goliaths (and other transports) don't have the Cult Ambush or Return to the Shadows special rules, and those rules are not conferred to them by their transported units nor by the Infiltrate rule. In addition, units embarked on a Transport are expressly disallowed from using the Cult Ambush and Return to the Shadows special rules. Vehicles basically don't get to have any of the fun. (Except Sentinels in a Neophyte Cavalcade, who can Cult Ambush, but not Return to the Shadows.)

Doesn't that conflict with "Time to rise up" in the uprising formation? If I am required to set up using cult ambush, but my dedicated transports can't cult ambush, does 40k space time tear in half?

The easy solution is that you don't deploy in the transports,

What do you guys think are the biggest "bang for your buck" unit options for when you roll Telepathic Summons?

Acolytes, hands down. With the amount of excellent (and otherwise very expensive) upgrades they can get, there's just no passing them up.

Edit: Actually, I thought you got fewer Metamorphs when you summoned. I can certainly see a use for them, such as trying to bring down something with I5-7 that may otherwise mulch your fragile Acolytes, but man, getting a bunch of free hidden rock saws is really hard to say no to.