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So I was trying to think about what harlequins are missing to make them a viable army on their own. I know lots of people say it's anti tank but they have haywire coming out their ears and a decent amount of S6 if you're transporting the buggers. I have a few things I think for myself;

1) A grand harlequin, something above a Troupe Master in quality but not quite Solitaire level. 3 wounds, 4+ invul, something like that. Being able to customise him to your will would help with that.
2) PUT YOUR GOD DAMN CHARACTERS AND JETBIKES!!! How much better would Skyweavers be if the could be supported by a Shadowseer
3)Pistols on bikes, or just more attacks. Why does my bike get 4 attacks on the charge with two harlequins riding it and my foot harlies also got 4?
4) A transport that carries a decent sized squad. You can't even transport a traditional harlequin Troupe with a Jester and Seer in it, like you force us to play fluff for army comp but you're vehicles won't let us do it all the way...
5) Any kind of in army anti air. SOMETHING! An av 10 all around high agility flyer with 2 haywire weapons and a shuriken cannon. DONE.

Anyone else have any ideas on what could make these guys viable?

I like each and every one of those suggestions for various reasons, but I don't think any of them really helps make harlequins more viable.

1. This would be cool and fun, but it would basically just be a different way of getting melee killing power. We already have melee killing power.

2. Cool, but having a bike 'seer or bike jester won't fix the rest of our problems.

3. I actually feel like bikes hit pretty hard; they just suffer badly against overwatch and from their lack of fleet and flip belts. Feels like a silly oversight. And really, our bikes are pretty good (if too expensive). If anything melee is not their problem.

4. Totally agree, but sticking more clowns in one place doesn't really fix the problem. If it did, you'd see taxi service dark eldar allied with harlies more often.

5. This would help against flyers, but flyers aren't why harlies aren't viable. Flyers don't even show up in most games, and harlies are arguably better than most at hiding from them in melee.

As I see it, here are the main problems facing harlequins:

* We're very fragile and very expensive. Either of those traits would be fine individually, but putting them together means we lose a ton of points every time someone dies to overwatch. If we kill off a unit in assault too fast, we get shot up on the following turn without having a chance to hit & run away. If we don't kill a unit in assault on the first turn, we're likely to take one or two casualties that easily translate to 40+ points worth of clowns. Where other assault armies are either numerous or durable enough to offset their weaknesses, we're not really either of those things. Our tricks to avoid dying (psychic powers, mirage launchers, speed) often times can't be used while in a transport, require we not position ourselves for offense, or are simply too risky to use reliably (perils of the warp and no ghost helm).

*Lack of ranged firepower/alpha strike. We can't meaningfully reach across the table and stop things from killing us on turn one. If there's a riptide across the board, it's probably going to get at least a couple of turns to shoot at us because we can't shut it down. If we're facing orks, we have to get within 24" to stagger the approach of a few of them. Sure, haywire is nice, but you're spending over 50 points per haywire shot (outside of 8" grenades) which generally translates to a single hull point removed. Obviously harlequins aren't meant to be heavy on the dakka, and that's fine. But combine our inability to meaningfully shut things down before getting into assault exasperates the aforementioned fragile/expensive issue. This, I feel, is one of the main reasons you see eldar taken as allies with harlies; so that you can do something other than put 200+ point squads in front of your opponent on turn 1 and hop they don't hit too hard.

* Restrictive army builds. Our formations are actually pretty nice, but they prevent us from doing several builds that might solve a lot of our problems. A normal CAD, for instance, would allow us to stick 3+ shadow seers with 3 troupe squads and use veil of tears/shrouded/dance of shadows to get up the table while 3 FA choices and 3 HS choices pounded the enemy with a not-horrible amount of Strength 6. As is, you have to fumble around with a combination of a Masque detachment (limited number of FA and HS) and some other formation (Serpent's Brood?) to do something similar, and then you're stuck with an awkward number of points here and there that aren't necessarily ideal. Having access to a CAD wouldn't fix harlequins, but it would give us a lot more flexibility to optimize our builds.

*Shadowseers have problems. They're meant to be the glue that holds a harlequin army together and gets it across the table, but they struggle to do that. If you put your squad in a transport, they can't use their blessings to help keep their pals alive. If you walk them on foot, you risk taking too long to meaningfully engage the enemy, risk getting shot up along the way, and risk Perils each time you put a reasonable number of dice into Veil of Tears, Dance of Shadows, Shrouded, Invis, etc. I love shadowseers, but I'd love for a ghost helm equivalent that lets me throw dice at powers without worrying about killing my expensive, fragile psyker.

I actually love the harlequin codex, and it makes for really fun games in the right matchups. It's just really easy to find the rock to your scissors, and we don't have a lot of ways to meaningfully deal with rocks (usually in the form of shooty armies) when we run into them.

As an aside, I'm also going to soapbox about daemons while we're here. Considering harlies are meant to be sort of kind of the eldar equivalent of a Grey Knight, their unique stuff is weirdly bad at dealing with daemons. Hallucinogen grenades and the death jester's special rule don't work against daemons. Part of the appeal (and part of the pricetag) of harlequin gear is that it ignores armor saves, but most daemons don't have armor saves in the first place. Harlequins have access to sanctic, but are just as at-risk of hurting themselves with it as most factions making it a risky proposition for our fragile shadow seers. Granted, games against daemosn tend to be pretty decent matchups for harlies (assuming the deamons don't bring tons of shooting), but it's still a weird mechanics/fluff mismatch.

Back on topic, I'm not really sure how to fix harlequins. I feel like they kind of sort of deserve to have more access to big, sweeping tricks. Sort of like their better warlord traits. Things that let them deploy oddly, jump across the table, or pull of other shenanigans that people won't expect. A heavy support that increases the holofield and holosuit invuls of all models within 12" (sort of like a harlequin version of that special dark angels speeder) by enhancing the prismatic distortion might be neat, or perhaps something akin to the striking scorpions' rule where they have shrouded until they shoot or stab something to represent them being in "stealth mode."

Basically, most of harlequins' problems boil down to their delivery system. THey're fine (mostly) once they get across the table. It's how many units you lose on the way there that's the issue.

So we're talking an HQ choice, something the size and shape of a Raider (transport and holosuit pump in the same place would make it roughly the equivalent of a Ghost Ark in game role, I suppose), some way of denying Overwatch (I'm honestly startled this isn't already in Phantasmancy, it seems like the place for it; though some sort of sonic suppression gun for the purpose could make Voidweavers more interesting without being lazy and just giving everyone Banshee masks), and more guns (more options for Death Jesters, some kind of Death Jester-led fire-support troupe, the aforementioned Raider-equivalent chassis with some kind of big cannon stuck to it).

This could get interesting quickly, will stick together some more concrete proposals in the morning.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Back on topic, I'm not really sure how to fix harlequins. I feel like they kind of sort of deserve to have more access to big, sweeping tricks. Sort of like their better warlord traits. Things that let them deploy oddly, jump across the table, or pull of other shenanigans that people won't expect. A heavy support that increases the holofield and holosuit invuls of all models within 12" (sort of like a harlequin version of that special dark angels speeder) by enhancing the prismatic distortion might be neat, or perhaps something akin to the striking scorpions' rule where they have shrouded until they shoot or stab something to represent them being in "stealth mode."

Something similar to the old Alaitoc disruption table, maybe?

 Robin5t wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Back on topic, I'm not really sure how to fix harlequins. I feel like they kind of sort of deserve to have more access to big, sweeping tricks. Sort of like their better warlord traits. Things that let them deploy oddly, jump across the table, or pull of other shenanigans that people won't expect. A heavy support that increases the holofield and holosuit invuls of all models within 12" (sort of like a harlequin version of that special dark angels speeder) by enhancing the prismatic distortion might be neat, or perhaps something akin to the striking scorpions' rule where they have shrouded until they shoot or stab something to represent them being in "stealth mode."

Something similar to the old Alaitoc disruption table, maybe?

Maybe! That would certainly reflect their sneakyness. I recall using a fan codex back in the day that featured "Master Mimes," elites who gave you a disruption table-esque roll for each one you took.

A few (overly complicated) ideas that I've mulled over in the past include:

*Great Harlequin: A LoW (taken as his own formation) that's actually less good in melee than a Solitaire but who can take lots of options that serve as one-use buffs and debuffs called "tricks." This doesn't really fix the army, but I like the idea of an extremely rare manifestation of the laughing god who doesn't feel like a melee monster and instead feels genuinely tricky.

*Dances: Similar to battle doctrines or canticles. One-use army-wide buffs representing the harlequins performing their dances and gaining supernatural enhancements as they tap into stories tied to the collective eldar psyche. So the Dance of Kurnous might give them shrouded for a turn provided they don't attack. The Dance of Eldanesh might give characters Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter for a turn. The Dance of Bafflement might force the enemy to reroll succesful to-hit rolls for a turn. That sort of thing.

*A modified Masque detachment that grants all three troupe masters a warlord trait from the Light/Twilight/Darkness trait tables. If you can shunt a twilight squad, scout/outflank multiple units with the light warlord trait, and then take an extra assault phase at the end of the game with a dark trait, I feel like you have decent odds of arriving mostly intact.

*A formation including shadowseers that allows them to cast blessings on any transport they're embarked upon.

*Mimes: melee units from back in the day that have shrouded and infiltrate. You'd use these guys to hold objectives or distract the enemy turn 1 while your main force moves into position. Losing a 20 point clown hurts, but losing a 10ish point mime hurts less.

CAD. That's the only thing they're really missing.

Well, maybe flip belts on bikers and ability to fire the ass-gun 360 degrees.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Back on topic, I'm not really sure how to fix harlequins. I feel like they kind of sort of deserve to have more access to big, sweeping tricks. Sort of like their better warlord traits. Things that let them deploy oddly, jump across the table, or pull of other shenanigans that people won't expect. A heavy support that increases the holofield and holosuit invuls of all models within 12" (sort of like a harlequin version of that special dark angels speeder) by enhancing the prismatic distortion might be neat, or perhaps something akin to the striking scorpions' rule where they have shrouded until they shoot or stab something to represent them being in "stealth mode."

Something similar to the old Alaitoc disruption table, maybe?

Maybe! That would certainly reflect their sneakyness. I recall using a fan codex back in the day that featured "Master Mimes," elites who gave you a disruption table-esque roll for each one you took.

A few (overly complicated) ideas that I've mulled over in the past include:

*Great Harlequin: A LoW (taken as his own formation) that's actually less good in melee than a Solitaire but who can take lots of options that serve as one-use buffs and debuffs called "tricks." This doesn't really fix the army, but I like the idea of an extremely rare manifestation of the laughing god who doesn't feel like a melee monster and instead feels genuinely tricky.

*Dances: Similar to battle doctrines or canticles. One-use army-wide buffs representing the harlequins performing their dances and gaining supernatural enhancements as they tap into stories tied to the collective eldar psyche. So the Dance of Kurnous might give them shrouded for a turn provided they don't attack. The Dance of Eldanesh might give characters Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter for a turn. The Dance of Bafflement might force the enemy to reroll succesful to-hit rolls for a turn. That sort of thing.

*A modified Masque detachment that grants all three troupe masters a warlord trait from the Light/Twilight/Darkness trait tables. If you can shunt a twilight squad, scout/outflank multiple units with the light warlord trait, and then take an extra assault phase at the end of the game with a dark trait, I feel like you have decent odds of arriving mostly intact.

*A formation including shadowseers that allows them to cast blessings on any transport they're embarked upon.

*Mimes: melee units from back in the day that have shrouded and infiltrate. You'd use these guys to hold objectives or distract the enemy turn 1 while your main force moves into position. Losing a 20 point clown hurts, but losing a 10ish point mime hurts less.

I really like the idea of dances, or performances, giving one-turn-only army-wide buffs. It's very fluffy and very unique.

They should have some means of making the enemy attack their own units, in my opinion. Chaos Sorcerers have it, yet a big part of Cegorach's thing is turning his enemies against each other, like what he did to the Outsider, so surely his followers should have something similar as an option? Either a psyker power, bit of wargear, or possibly even something like a 'dance' like what you mentioned. Facing a wall of dakka would be a lot less intimidating when you can make some of it point at the enemy.

I love the dance idea. It would make Harlequins on foot a solid choice (I mean guaranteeing your enemy is going to be within 24" if they fired at you isn't bad but it's not good either)

The buff to Genestealers were a long-time coming - but it's kind of upsetting to see the new Genestealer at 14pts compared to a Harlequin. If a Genestealer can have a 5++, why not make the Holo-suit grant a 4++.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
The buff to Genestealers were a long-time coming - but it's kind of upsetting to see the new Genestealer at 14pts compared to a Harlequin. If a Genestealer can have a 5++, why not make the Holo-suit grant a 4++.

I think a 4++ holosuit save would be reasonable, but I personally think it would be appropriate to tie it to something like the aforementioned dance mechanics rather than making it an innate thing. So rather than just saying "my harlequins always have 4+ invuls," you could say, "I'm advancing my dance to the second step, so now they have +1 invul save, and they can advance that to +2 invul in melee if they declare that they'll make one fewer attacks at the start of the fight sub phase." Something like that.

Thinking on the "dance" mechanic, I think it would be nice to make the mechanic a bit unique compared to the other "one and done" mechanics out there. Maybe something like the following? Note: these are probably too complicated to be realistic, but like the idea in general.

DANCES: During deployment, the harlequin player selects a single dance. The dance begins at step 1. The harlequin player may advance the step of their dance by 1 (no skipping steps!) at the beginning of any of their turns. All models of the harlequin faction gain the benefits of the current dance step for the duration of the game or until the dance step changes.

TRICKSTER'S DANCE
Step 1: The stage is silent and unlit. The enemy is unaware. Affected models gain stealth and shrouded until they make an attack, cast a witchfire power, or make an attack in the assault phase. This benefit is lost when the dance step changes.
Step 2: A burst of light, sound, and confusion. Discord reigns. Affected models gain +1 to their invul saves against shooting attacks. Non-vehicle units may decrease their Attacks characteristic by 1 and increase their invulnerable saves by +1 for the duration of an assault phase (declared at the beginning of the assault phase).
Step 3: The trickster fleas. Brother's blade in brother's heart. A cruel laugh mocks unwitting betrayal. Affected models may increase the distance they move when using Hit & Run by 1d6. Immediately after successfully leaving a fight with Hit & Run, the harlequin player may nominate one enemy unit that is no longer engaged in combat due to the hi & run. That unit immediately snapshoots at another unengaged enemy unit. The shooting attacks are resolved before the firing unit consolidates.
Step 4: Return to step 1.

DANCE OF THREE QUEENS
Step 1: The maiden dreams. Shadowseers in the formation may discard a warp die to after rolling on the Perils of the Warp table to avoid taking a wound. (Meaning shadow seers can use protective buffs like veil of tears without accidentally dying to perils. This lets you cross the table safely.)
Step 2: The mother weeps for her children, heroes who will know glory and suffering. Troupe Masters in the army may saves, to-hit rolls, and to-wound rolls while in melee.
Step 3: The crone curses, fell fates sewn with sanguin threads. Look Out Sir tests cannot be taken against wounds caused by affected Death Jesters. Death Jesters may fire an additional number of shots with their shrieker cannons equal to the current turn number while this step is in effect, but may not shoot at all on the following turn.
Step 4: Return to step 1.

Something sort of like that?