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 Huron black heart wrote:
Asan aside, picking three unpickable units from your opponents codex (with prior agreement of course) could be an interesting way to try and balance a game.
Although I wonder what my Chaos marines would lose.

helldrakes, cultists and I dunno one of the dinobots?

 Verviedi wrote:
Oh, so you would ban fluffy army-specific detachments such as Ork Horde or Realspace Raiders? I see no reason to be that drastic.

Yes because we still made fluffy armies without them. Like, you know, from pre-6th edition. The IG platoon system (where one choice nabs you multiple squads) works for Ork Horde and Realspace Raiders worked better when you can just buy upgrades piecemeal for each unit (or a piece of wargear for a commander that created a portal, like say maybe the Webway Portal?). With a good work around already existing from previous editions, this is a small price to pay to get rid of comically OP stuff like the Riptide Wing, multiple Wraithknights under 2000 points, and free upgrades like the Gladius.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Oh, so you would ban fluffy army-specific detachments such as Ork Horde or Realspace Raiders? I see no reason to be that drastic.

Yes because we still made fluffy armies without them. Like, you know, from pre-6th edition. The IG platoon system (where one choice nabs you multiple squads) works for Ork Horde and Realspace Raiders worked better when you can just buy upgrades piecemeal for each unit (or a piece of wargear for a commander that created a portal, like say maybe the Webway Portal?). With a good work around already existing from previous editions, this is a small price to pay to get rid of comically OP stuff like the Riptide Wing, multiple Wraithknights under 2000 points, and free upgrades like the Gladius.

No you really didn't. CAD Dark Eldar don't get a lot of Fast Attack slots nor do they gain a bonus befitting for them.

 CynosureEldar wrote:
SM would lose terminators

Terminators are one of the biggest wastes of points in a Space Marine army. The only competitive Terminators are TH/SS termies, and that's only for the invuln. And they still die to AP3 to AP- fire just as easily as any other Terminator. If you want to get them in combat, you need to invest in a Land Raider, or a Stormraven, both of which are another 200 points down the drain for a mixed ability tank, or flyer which can only come in turn two earliest.

The real SM OP units (not Knights) are probably Drop Pods. Centurions could be argued for, but if grav was gone, then Centurions would see a hell of a lot less play. However, it's not SM units that are the problem - it's the formations (Gladius free transports) and ready access to powerful gear (Grav) that makes them formidable - you can't argue that a Rhino or Tactical Squad is OP.

Should this style of banning occur? No, seeing as how it REALLY nerfs the weaker armies too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Oh, so you would ban fluffy army-specific detachments such as Ork Horde or Realspace Raiders? I see no reason to be that drastic.

Yes because we still made fluffy armies without them. Like, you know, from pre-6th edition. The IG platoon system (where one choice nabs you multiple squads) works for Ork Horde and Realspace Raiders worked better when you can just buy upgrades piecemeal for each unit (or a piece of wargear for a commander that created a portal, like say maybe the Webway Portal?). With a good work around already existing from previous editions, this is a small price to pay to get rid of comically OP stuff like the Riptide Wing, multiple Wraithknights under 2000 points, and free upgrades like the Gladius.

No you really didn't. CAD Dark Eldar don't get a lot of Fast Attack slots nor do they gain a bonus befitting for them.

Bonuses should be bought as upgrades or inherent to a unit.

If there's not enough FA choices, then those units shouldn't BE FA choices. FA choices should be what the army has that is fast In Relation To Itself, not in relation to others.

Not to mention using DEs as an example of being "unfluffy" without Realspace Raiders is flawed in of itself, because I don't recall anyone calling their army unfluffy in 5th edition, where none of this existed. In fact I hear more cries of unfluff in the present, despite Realspace Raiders existing.

My first experience with OP was back in 6th when for some gak odd reason GW said

"You would what would be a great idea? introducing flying units with out any form of AA other then an agis defense line! And you know what, lets make necros have a flying unit of doom and death, with no way to shoot it down! this is a great idea!"

Please oh please, take the C&C node and MSS and give us back the stormsurge.

For orks what would that be?

Mega Nobz maybe?
Warbikers yeah probably
Tank Bustas?

So if you take all of that you have really not done much to my army except taken 3 units away from me which on a scale from 1/10 are about a 6 MAYBE a 7 and left me with the rest of my codex which ranges from 2 (Burna Boyz and Flash Gitz) To 5 or 6 (Boyz and Mek Gunz)

Really the army that wins if this happens is the Eldar, you take away their top 3 units and they are still left with overly shooty, fast, resilient units with little to no downside.

Not Grav-Cannons for SM huh?

They don't need Drop Pods or Centurions to be amazing.

@ OP: Terminators huh? Man I wonder what your experience with them has been.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Not Grav-Cannons for SM huh?

They don't need Drop Pods or Centurions to be amazing.

@ OP: Terminators huh? Man I wonder what your experience with them has been.

Clearly not much, because Terminators only look scary but fall flat lol

 Verviedi wrote:

Give this man a medal.

 Gamgee wrote:

Give this man a medal.

For a totally off topic, unrelated pic?

 Blacksails wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

Give this man a medal.

For a totally off topic, unrelated pic?

is it off topic.or unrelated?

 carldooley wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

Give this man a medal.

For a totally off topic, unrelated pic?

is it off topic.or unrelated?

Pretty much the same thing.

As a point for Harlequins, banning the Solitaire, Death Jester, and Solitaire make them pretty much entirely unplayable since most (if not all - not sure without digging out my book) of their formations require either some elites or some of the above 3... so they would be reduced to being an add on for Eldar again. they wold have slightly more options than before, which would be nice... but that would make me wonder if GW was trying to condense them and DE into an "Eldar allies" book.

 CynosureEldar wrote:
How would the "Best to worst" Codex list look like, if each codex had their top three OP units banned? For example, Tau would have Riptides, stormsurges, and Hammerheads banned, and SM would lose terminators, the good imperial knight build, and (IDK) librarians. This would put the Tau at a severe disadvantage, dropping their codex down to the bottom of the "list", but the SM would probably stay top tier, or just below.

Thoughts?

Edit:
Many have inquired about my choices for my example, as for Tau, no, they did not touch me in the naughty place, that was the terminators' job. I know jack about anything non-Eldar, so I just used my experiences from games.

Yeah, you got SM completely wrong. The three units that I would remove from the SM codex:

Librarians
Drop Pods
Space Marine Bikes

And for good measure, I'd remove white scars chapter tactics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CynosureEldar wrote:
Sorry, I was just trying to set up an example. I know squat about anything not Eldar, which is one of the reasons I'm asking. Seems to me Tau would be hit the hardest, but I'm still pretty new at this.

Eldar, I would remove:

Wraithknights
Wave serpents
Eldar Jetbikes


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Huron black heart wrote:
Asan aside, picking three unpickable units from your opponents codex (with prior agreement of course) could be an interesting way to try and balance a game.
Although I wonder what my Chaos marines would lose.

Heldrakes, daemon princes and sorcerers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bomtek80 wrote:
Hmmm...for vanilla SM codex...

Librarians
Centurion Devestators
Drop Pods.

Watch the power level drop considerably. They would still have a few decent options but the OP army builds would be greatly reduced.

If you get rid of librarians and drop pods, centurion devastators become much less powerful. No need to remove them. Remove the bikes instead.

 Traditio wrote:
Eldar, I would remove:

Wraithknights
Wave serpents
Eldar Jetbikes

Wave serpents were awful last edition, but pushing shooting the shield to only a once per game thing made it less useful and kind of meh for anything but wraithguard. Falcons are about the same price for a transport capacity that is less wasted and better gun loadout.

I agree with the others that the list for CWE would be:

Wraithknights
Warp Spiders
Windrider Jetbikes

For an amusing take, Corsair Eldar would probably lose... (bit of a shot in the dark here)

Cloud Dancer Band
Prince?
Venom?

Or take a dart and toss it at any one of the non Lord of War Forgeworld units the Corsairs can take.

So, now we have a few suggestions for units to ban, what would the list look like?

From what I'm getting:

Top Tier - SM, Necrons

Mid Tier - Eldar, Orks, Daemons, Knights, Imp Guard

Low Tier - Tau, DE, Inquisitors, CSM

Unplayable - Clowns, Assassins, Bugs

Adjustments?

-Tau's roster of units and their formations/Taucurion are way too good to put them low tier.
-Orks are far too reliant on Meganobz, Warbikes, and/or Tankbustas to get by without them.
-Space Marines wouldn't do as well losing 3 units from the roster which would drop them down into mid tier.
-Eldar are still extremely well rounded and can plug those holes quickly with a multitude of other units. 100% Top Tier and still probably the strongest army.
-Necrons are well rounded and as long as the core requirements for Decurion doesn't get banned out then they will be Top Tier.
-Daemons might be Top Tier but I don't play against them enough to know if they will be ok losing 3 units. They seem like they have a lot of options.
-Guard might be hit harder than at first it looks but still probably Mid Tier.
-Knights will be Mid even with the less than desirable variants.
-Dark Eldar might actually move up to mid tier as their roster of units is deep enough to work around losing their 3 best units. Not sure what units would go away but they have varying playstyles that can use a bunch of different units.
-Inq would be unplayable without Henchmen.
-CSM would be Low Tier as I'm sure sorcerers would get banned which is the basis for them standing a chance.
-Harlequins would be gutted.
-Nids are still playable but probably low tier.
-Assasins

Not included are
-Space Wolves are mid tier without Wulfen, TWC, and probably Iron Priest
-Dark Angels would lose their Ravenwing basically which would make them dead in the water. Mid or maybe low tier.
-Admech/Skitarii are probably mid tier but would definitely not have a War Convocation which really hurts them. Solid base line units though so they aren't helpless.
-Grey Knights would lose Dreadknights, Libarians, and ill be generous and say they lose Purifiers. They become an army of Terminators and Interceptors.....Let that sink in. An army of Melee Terminators and Jump Pack Infantry. It doesn't take a Boss with a Finkin Kap to figure out where these gitz are gonna end up in the rankings.

 CynosureEldar wrote:
SM would lose terminators...

Yeah those terminator death stars sure are an issue..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have a fun idea that simplifies things a lot.
Use the comminity comp rule system (http://www.communitycomp.org/) and don't allow any Credits to be spend by the players. There you have it the best BAN list you could ever wish for. The game is now kicked back to basic low lv power mode.









Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is an example how great is works.

Grav weapons.
Max number of grav shots in your army 11
All relentless grav weapons are banned
Grav cannon + gav amp banned

Max number of jetbike models 8
Max number of IC's in a unit 3
Escape hatch: banned
imperial knights all banned
Bloodthirster of insensate rage banned.

I can only say the 3 armies I play.

Tau: Riptide, Stormsurge, and Y'varra (honourable mention to the Supremacy suit)

Daemons: Fateweaver, Be'lakor, and daemon prince.

Harlequins: Shadowseer, Troupe, and Solitaire.

Tau and Daemons would be knocked down a few pegs but would still be mid-tier. Harlequins would be completely unplayable.

For Tau, the Community Comp people have no idea what they're talking about. With your idea, Vectored retro-thrusters would be banned.

Edit: The Community Comp people apparently think the Rapid Insertion force is OP.

 Verviedi wrote:
For Tau, the Community Comp people have no idea what they're talking about. With your idea, Vectored retro-thrusters would be banned.

As they should be in this low power 0 Credit environment.

...it's Fleet on a platform that will never be running or charging, and Hit And Run on a platform that will die in one turn to a charge, and is taking tests at I2. VRT is useful in once instance, and it got banned anyway due to another special rule. Your low power environment makes no logical sense. Banning VRT is like banning Ogryns, it makes no sense, because nobody is taking it anyway.
Darkstrider is banned. You know, that one character so weak that nobody ever takes him except in one gimmick build that's already banned under your system due to the Tidewall being banned?
Stepping away from Tau, Tyranids have Tyrant Guard banned. What the feth?

Tyrant Guard aren't banned They are restricted to <3 models.
Flyrants and Venomthrope are the only things banned in this system from the tyranid list but there are some serious limitations on shenanigans and spam builds


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It started as a silly idiea. Since 0 comp score isn't really the intention of that list. But the longer I look at it the more it seems to be a really good idea. It puts a ban on all powerful options, shenanigans and spam lists while it makes room for less competitive options. I feel that it would shift the game away from list building and more into tactics.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Tyrant Guard aren't banned They are restricted to <3 models.
Flyrants and Venomthrope are the only things banned in this system from the tyranid list but there are some serious limitations on shenanigans and spam builds


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It started as a silly idiea. Since 0 comp score isn't really the intention of that list. But the longer I look at it the more it seems as a really good idea. It puts a ban on all powerful options, shenanigans and spam lists while it makes room for less competitive options. I feel that it would shift the game away from list building and more into tactics.

Tyrant Guard might as well be banned then.

And really? Venomthropes? The things that actually help support the little bugs so that they aren't garbage? The comp is bad and you should feel like garbage for even saying it is good.

Bullgryns are banned by that comp. That comp is bad and whoever wrote it should feel bad.

 Bookwrack wrote:
Wait, Farsight/Shadowsun shipping?

What?

I guess I need to read more Tau threads.

The only thing that I can say about this is that both of their warlord traits allow for the unit that they are joined to to get to the point that they need to on the field. (too many to's) Shadowsun grants faster thrust (assault) moves to crisis and stealth suits. Farsight allows a DS without scatter.

I couldn't find any reference to this in the thread, and I don't understand what you are saying here.

Anyway, I built a FSE 1850 list with the noted restrictions, and it looks like modified 5th edition list:

HQ = 154 pts.
Commander
2 Missile Pods
Drone Controller & Target Lock
Neuroweb System Jammer
2 Marker Drones

HQ = 135 pts.
Shadowsun

TROOPS = 681 pts.
Crisis Shas'vre
C&C Node
MSS
PEN Chip
7 Crisis Shas'ui
3x 2 Plasma Rifles & Target Lock
2x Missile Pods & Target Lock
2x Fusion Blasters & Target Lock
16 Marker Drones
Bonding Knife Ritual

TROOPS = 257 pts.
Breacher Team
5 Additional Breachers
Shas'ui Upgrade
Bonding Knife Ritual
Guardian Drone
EMP Grenades
Devilfish
TL SMS
Disruption Pod
Point Defense Targeting Relay

TROOPS = 75 pts.
Crisis Shas'ui
BKR
Airbursting Fragmentation Projector
Drone Controller & Target Lock
2 Marker Drones

TROOPS = 75 pts.
Crisis Shas'ui
BKR
Airbursting Fragmentation Projector
Drone Controller & Target Lock
2 Marker Drones

HEAVY = 141 pts.
Sky Ray Gunship
Disruption Pod
Point Defense Targeting Relay
Blacksun Filter

HEAVY = 141 pts.
Sky Ray Gunship
Disruption Pod
Point Defense Targeting Relay
Blacksun Filter

HEAVY = 141 pts.
Sky Ray Gunship
Disruption Pod
Point Defense Targeting Relay
Blacksun Filter

FORTIFICATION = 50 pts.
Aegis Defense Line

what would your lists look like with similar restrictions?

It's a reference to people implying romance/a relationship between them, making jokes about Commander Shadowsun being a "Tsundere" for Farsight, ect.
The fact that they apparently slept together on a training exercise in the Farsight novel does not help this.

It is never popular to pay more or your own favourite unit or to see it banned in lower power games. But you can't deny that the community comp is actually a good thing. It correctly recognizes all building blocks for tricks, shenanigans and options that rise above the power curve.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:


what would your lists look like with similar restrictions?

I'll give it a try.

If somebody is calling fething Bullgryns overpowered or "shenanigans", we're dealing with people that may actually not have played 40k.