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AnomanderRake wrote:(Also are you seriously suggesting I take the 4e book and add hull points? That entire book was at least 25% too expensive in the era it was written for, add three extra editions of power creep and I'd be setting records for the fastest time from deployment to getting tabled every single game.)

1. I said 5e, not 4e.

2. And at least you'd know how the rest of us feel. Because, you know, pretty much any "normal" game played against Eldar is already "setting records for the fastest time from deployment to getting tabled every single game."

Seriously. The best way to play eldar is...not playing eldar.

Proxy your force as space marines.

Dire avengers count as tacticals with bolters. Wave serpents count as rhinos. Wraithknights count as dreadnoughts. Wraithguard count as terminators. Dark reapers count as devastator marines.

 Traditio wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:(Also are you seriously suggesting I take the 4e book and add hull points? That entire book was at least 25% too expensive in the era it was written for, add three extra editions of power creep and I'd be setting records for the fastest time from deployment to getting tabled every single game.)

1. I said 5e, not 4e.

2. And at least you'd know how the rest of us feel. Because, you know, pretty much any "normal" game played against Eldar is already "setting records for the fastest time from deployment to getting tabled every single game."

Seriously. The best way to play eldar is...not playing eldar.

Proxy your force as space marines.

Dire avengers count as tacticals with bolters. Wave serpents count as rhinos. Wraithknights count as dreadnoughts. Wraithguard count as terminators. Dark reapers count as devastator marines.

1) Yeah, wonderful, you said 5e... except the eldar didn't get a codex in that edition. They got in 4e and it wasn't really good to boot.
2) No that's how the rest of you feel. That's how you and a handful of wimpy players utterly fixated in 3 units within the codex you fail to notice the rest for its pros and cons. I'm honestly tired of this shaming eldar players have to endure. So why not the other way around, huh? Use those nobs as banshees, etc. What about that? Go tell the others to play another army they don't want to.

Bharring wrote:
I think we need to take another look at the Fire Prisim.

It has a mode of fire like a Battlecannon. Compare it to a LOT with a battle cannon. It's got better range, but both are long enough. It's got mobility and jink vs AV 14. It's got a small sidearm for small arms fire vs the LR options. Seems fair at that point....

Except that it's S5 vs S8. If you don't think that's huge, wtf. That is a huge tradeoff for viability.

It's got its Lance shot. BS4 not twinlinked. So about the same as a Las pred sans sponsons. For a lot more points. Or a Dev squad with a pair of Lascannons. You could have about double the firepower for the same points.

It has the Plasma cannon shot. Compared to a Tac squad with a PC, it has range and no gets hot. Take 4 in a Dev squad for about the same points.

So it can do any one of those jobs about half or a quarter as well as the generic version, for the same points. But it can only do one per round.

I wouldn't call that OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you can't shoot 500 points of CSM and not kill Guadians. CSM will destroy them seven ways to Sunday.

I never said against guardians, my entire shooting phase as csm goes, tank killers hit the wave serpent, turns all pens to glances or gets its 5 up save, so a lot of firepower directed at that for a hull point or 2. Target some scat bikes but the farseer in the squad gave them the spell to re roll saves, useless again, then hell we have a unit or 2 left lets target the spiders AND ITS GONE! lol. (South park reference).

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:(Also are you seriously suggesting I take the 4e book and add hull points? That entire book was at least 25% too expensive in the era it was written for, add three extra editions of power creep and I'd be setting records for the fastest time from deployment to getting tabled every single game.)

1. I said 5e, not 4e.

2. And at least you'd know how the rest of us feel. Because, you know, pretty much any "normal" game played against Eldar is already "setting records for the fastest time from deployment to getting tabled every single game."

Seriously. The best way to play eldar is...not playing eldar.

Proxy your force as space marines.

Dire avengers count as tacticals with bolters. Wave serpents count as rhinos. Wraithknights count as dreadnoughts. Wraithguard count as terminators. Dark reapers count as devastator marines.

1) Yeah, wonderful, you said 5e... except the eldar didn't get a codex in that edition. They got in 4e and it wasn't really good to boot.
2) No that's how the rest of you feel. That's how you and a handful of wimpy players utterly fixated in 3 units within the codex you fail to notice the rest for its pros and cons. I'm honestly tired of this shaming eldar players have to endure. So why not the other way around, huh? Use those nobs as banshees, etc. What about that? Go tell the others to play another army they don't want to.

It's Traditio...don't waste your time.

I'll pitch in and say that maybe you should take a break.

Alternatively, switch armies! Let the wife try CSM, and you get to take a crack at the Eldar! (Just... You know, be a good sport. Don't laugh maniacally.)

So... I made a post back on page two of this clearly still-on-point-thread that I think the majority of you skipped over. I'd suggest going back and reading it.

This game, these armies, they come, intrinsically, from a company that has repeatedly expressed not only it's lack of will to balance their system wholesale, but also their lack of capability to. Let's not even touch editing...

We as players have as much responsibility to help the Chaos player enjoy his or her game as we do to have the Eldar player enjoy his or her game.

Can we drop the vitriol? There are options available. Are they perfect? No. Can you do better? Then house rule it. Or design your own game and models.

deathmagiks wrote:
So... I made a post back on page two of this clearly still-on-point-thread that I think the majority of you skipped over. I'd suggest going back and reading it.

This game, these armies, they come, intrinsically, from a company that has repeatedly expressed not only it's lack of will to balance their system wholesale, but also their lack of capability to. Let's not even touch editing...

We as players have as much responsibility to help the Chaos player enjoy his or her game as we do to have the Eldar player enjoy his or her game.

Can we drop the vitriol? There are options available. Are they perfect? No. Can you do better? Then house rule it. Or design your own game and models.

Fantastic post, and what i'm looking for! My wife is kind of upset at some of these crazy posts about eldar players, and I agree. I don't want her to shelve units, that's unfair, so she agreed to give me a few more points next game as long as I don't bring any cheese (Still trying to convince her the heldrake is not this crazy op unit, but one step at a time lol)

 Elbows wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Traditio 704918 8960816 wrote:(stupid nonsense)

1) Yeah, wonderful, you said 5e... except the eldar didn't get a codex in that edition. They got in 4e and it wasn't really good to boot.
2) No that's how the rest of you feel. That's how you and a handful of wimpy players utterly fixated in 3 units within the codex you fail to notice the rest for its pros and cons. I'm honestly tired of this shaming eldar players have to endure. So why not the other way around, huh? Use those nobs as banshees, etc. What about that? Go tell the others to play another army they don't want to.

It's Traditio...don't waste your time.

Exactly. Stop feeding the troll.

XvReaperXv wrote:

deathmagiks wrote:
So... I made a post back on page two of this clearly still-on-point-thread that I think the majority of you skipped over. I'd suggest going back and reading it.

This game, these armies, they come, intrinsically, from a company that has repeatedly expressed not only it's lack of will to balance their system wholesale, but also their lack of capability to. Let's not even touch editing...

We as players have as much responsibility to help the Chaos player enjoy his or her game as we do to have the Eldar player enjoy his or her game.

Can we drop the vitriol? There are options available. Are they perfect? No. Can you do better? Then house rule it. Or design your own game and models.

Fantastic post, and what i'm looking for! My wife is kind of upset at some of these crazy posts about eldar players, and I agree. I don't want her to shelve units, that's unfair, so she agreed to give me a few more points next game as long as I don't bring any cheese (Still trying to convince her the heldrake is not this crazy op unit, but one step at a time lol)

The helldrake misses one turn automatically, and you have to invest more points for reserve manipulation or risk a turn 3 or turn 4 arrival. It can't hold objectives while flying, and the Eldar can easily outmaneuver it.

XvReaperXv wrote:
Fantastic post, and what i'm looking for! My wife is kind of upset at some of these crazy posts about eldar players, and I agree.

I don't want her to shelve units, that's unfair, so she agreed to give me a few more points next game as long as I don't bring any cheese (Still trying to convince her the heldrake is not this crazy op unit, but one step at a time lol)

And well she should be. The trolling is ridiculous, and fortunately, you can simply [Ignore] it.

Points adjustment works great. So you for "1500" pts, you can start at 1600 vs 1400. If you keep losing, keep adding to yours and subtracting from hers. Eventually, the points delta will make balance out. Just try to play well enough that it doesn't take 2,000 pts of CSM to match her 1,000 pts of Eldar... Much less 2400 vs 600...

I second that. Points adjustment should work fine as well. Make sure you are getting the most out of your CSM units, though.

I did offer to remove an article of clothing for every unit I kill next game lol.. Im not completely unsympathetic here and yeah don't feed the internet trolls after midnight !

I just wouldn't play against eldar if you feel that frustrated... they are way too op. If you dont want her to shelve units, you wil still be underpowered and lose unless you get a ton of points more (but that causes imbalance too).

However, playing against eldar with bikes, d weapons, and spiders is not a big deal if you don't mind losing. I'd say suck it up, you got your wife to play 40k, which is a win. Eventually she will get bored, need a challenge, and move on to another army (hopefully not tau lol).

My friend who play eldar doesn't use wrathguard, jetbikes, and only uses one max squad of spiders (if that, sometimes he doesn't take them at all). His army is infantry heavy with one wraithknight. He goes for fluffy lists which makes for not too bad of an army to face these days. Then again we all like fluffy armies that are not super competative. The games are a lot more fun and a lot less cutthroat.

 cuteywitdabooty wrote:
I did offer to remove an article of clothing for every unit I kill next game lol.. Im not completely unsympathetic here and yeah don't feed the internet trolls after midnight !

So it will be a turn 2 tie because the game will end for.......reasons =)

 455_PWR wrote:
I just wouldn't play against eldar if you feel that frustrated... they are way too op. If you dont want her to shelve units, you wil still be underpowered and lose unless you get a ton of points more (but that causes imbalance too).

However, playing against eldar with bikes, d weapons, and spiders is not a big deal if you don't mind losing. I'd say suck it up, you got your wife to play 40k, which is a win. Eventually she will get bored, need a challenge, and move on to another army (hopefully not tau lol).

My friend who play eldar doesn't use wrathguard, jetbikes, and only uses one max squad of spiders (if that, sometimes he doesn't take them at all). His army is infantry heavy with one wraithknight. He goes for fluffy lists which makes for not too bad of an army to face these days. Then again we all like fluffy armies that are not super competative. The games are a lot more fun and a lot less cutthroat.

He has tau already, and KDK, tyranids and necrons.. And space marines.. Lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

XvReaperXv wrote:

 cuteywitdabooty wrote:
I did offer to remove an article of clothing for every unit I kill next game lol.. Im not completely unsympathetic here and yeah don't feed the internet trolls after midnight !

So it will be a turn 2 tie because the game will end for.......reasons =)

Ha! Win win.. Who loves you baby cakes!

Yep. This is the cutest thread on Dakka. It warms my cold cyborg heart.

I had a friend who moved away a while back. Awesome guy, played chaos and KDK. He actually beat JY2 (Dakka user) at one of the tournaments this year or last year if I recall (if you all know who that is) and I think took 1st place with his KDK. I think it was either the 2015 or 2016 Broadside bash.

We played a planet strike campaign before he and his wife had to move (boo, military orders!) and he had this interesting system where one could invest points in fortifying various installations of renown and strategic importance on the planet we were attempting to fight over. Had a map and everything. Actions per turn per player, back story, all that jazz. It was fun as hell (My farseer got to lvl 5 mastery for various reasons and got access to Pyromancy...).

Anyways, reason I bring this up is because his system involved an extra X number of points for how fortified an installation or location was once you attacked it. For example, my 1850 Eldar list attacked one of his fortified cities. Because of his level of fortification, he got to bring +250 points in his army and +250 points in fortifications, leaving him with a nice, cushy defensive position I had to try and out play and out wit. Since I had spent a turn scouting the area prior, it gave me a 3+ chance on a D6 to look at his list before making mine, so I was able to prepare the right combination of things for the task ahead.

This was the closest game I've ever played.

First turn I managed to Scout my 3 man war walker squad up and bright lance a Bastion to death on his left flank. It exploded, leaving a massive hole in his lines while the rest of what I had on the board moved up. He had to spend a turn hoofing certain units into the gap, lowering his shooting potential and lessening the rather withering amount of firepower I had to survive as I moved up. It didn't help as much as I hoped for as two of my serpents were taken out and the Guardians who survived the crashes forced into the copse of trees to wait for reinforcements from my deep strikers. But this kept the fire off of my Scorpions and Wraithguard as they moved into position. Only the first lines of the symphony had been played and the crescendo awaited...

That, that right there is what it's all about. Not rules in a book or who is over powered or under powered. It's about creating a memory. No one says you have to have equal points to play a good game. As absurd as this line has been taken to since it's printing... Forge that narrative, then let the points help you with the mechanics of how to put it together.

** Edited for basic grammar

deathmagiks wrote:
I had a friend who moved away a while back. Awesome guy, played chaos and KDK. He actually beat JY2 (Dakka user) at one of the tournaments this year or last year if I recall (if you all know who that is) and I think took 1st place with his KDK. I think it was either the 2015 or 2016 Broadside bash.

We played a planet strike campaign before he and his wife had to move (boo, military orders!) and he had this interesting system where one could invest points in fortifying various installations of renown and strategic importance on the planet we were attempting to fight over. Had a map and everything. Actions per turn per player, back story, all that jazz. It was fun as hell (My farseer got to lvl 5 mastery for various reasons and got access to Pyromancy...).

Anyways, reason I bring this up is because his system involved an extra X number of points for how fortified an installation or location was once you attacked it. For example, my 1850 Eldar list attacked one of his fortified cities. Because of his level of fortification, he got to bring +250 points in his army and +250 points in fortifications, leaving him with a nice, cushy defensive position I had to try and out play and out wit. Since I had spent a turn scouting the area prior, it gave me a 3+ chance on a D6 to look at his list before making mine, so I was able to prepare the right combination of things for the task ahead.

This was the closest game I've ever played.

First turn I managed to Scout my 3 man war walker squad up and bright lance a Bastion to death on his left flank. It exploded, leaving a massive hole in his lines while the rest of what I had on the board moved up. He had to spend a turn hoofing certain units into the gap, lowering his shooting potential and lessening the rather withering amount of firepower I had to survive as I moved up. It didn't help as much as I hoped for as two of my serpents were taken out and the Guardians who survived the crashes forced into the copse of trees to wait for reinforcements from my deep strikers. But this kept the fire off of my Scorpions and Wraithguard as they moved into position. Only the first lines of the symphony had been played and the crescendo awaited...

That, that right there is what it's all about. Not rules in a book or who is over powered or under powered. It's about creating a memory. No one says you have to have equal points to play a good game. As absurd as this line has been taken to since it's printing... Forge that narrative, then let the points help you with the mechanics of how to put it together.

** Edited for basic grammar

Now I want to play planetstrike.