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 Gamgee wrote:
Dark Eldar are mid tier in terms of popularity which is much higher than most people give them credit for and a decent selling army likely to see support in the future. I bet we would see an uptick with better rules since that is all that's hindering their good sculpts back. http://www.totellstories.com/40k/

They never used to be that's the point.

Also I only ever see space wolves sm players
S.Y.

Dark Eldar sold well in 2010, then the sales rapidly fell off and nowadays they are one of the least played armies in the game and haven't received any new models for a long time, with no prospects for an update. The same thing will happen with Sisters of Battle, I'm positive.

Other than being girls in pseudo-power armor, they simply don't differ enough from stock space marines. They are clad in power armor, wield bolters and meltaguns, and ride in rhinos. This is what makes them poor-man's space marine army - cheap in design, not lucre. Everything else is nuance that a prospective buyer won't research before opting for a space marine force instead. And let me tell you, males are more likely to go for a boys army. Nuns in space is for already established 40K fans, and even then only for a small fraction of them.

Sisters have been neglected for a long time for a reason. Meanwhile, the CSM use ancient models despite being one of the most popular armies in the game. Other than Raptors in 2012, they haven't gotten an infantry update since 2007. That's 9 years! Why devote resources to an army that will sell boxes in a short burst instead of doing the same for an army that will provide a steady flow of sales? As for Magnus, I'm sure most CSM players would trade that for a brand new Noise Marine, Plague Marine or Obliterator box.

StupidYellow wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Dark Eldar are mid tier in terms of popularity which is much higher than most people give them credit for and a decent selling army likely to see support in the future. I bet we would see an uptick with better rules since that is all that's hindering their good sculpts back. http://www.totellstories.com/40k/

They never used to be that's the point.

S.Y.

Indeed - I have loads of Dark Eldar both the originals and the newer versions. In a similar manner to Sisters, there were constantly people saying they will be squatted, ignored, never get new models etc etc,

And then they did, with a decent codex that had lots of fun elements. Weirdly great models and good rules sell Well! Either of the two also do ok.

So GW - make new (and importantly) plastic models, give them the usual cheese formations and the like, sit back and watch them sell well. Its not hard.

Dark Eldar sold well in 2010, then the sales rapidly fell off and nowadays they are one of the least played armies in the game

Partly due to the fact that the last codex gutted the army, removed most of the options and now relies on very specific build that also requires a supplement. Or you could just buy Eldar. The rules effect sales - make bad ones for good models and it reduces the potential sales.

50mm unit could be some beefy arco-flagellants

 -DE- wrote:
Dark Eldar sold well in 2010, then the sales rapidly fell off and nowadays they are one of the least played armies in the game and haven't received any new models for a long time, with no prospects for an update. The same thing will happen with Sisters of Battle, I'm positive.

Other than being girls in pseudo-power armor, they simply don't differ enough from stock space marines. They are clad in power armor, wield bolters and meltaguns, and ride in rhinos. This is what makes them poor-man's space marine army - cheap in design, not lucre. Everything else is nuance that a prospective buyer won't research before opting for a space marine force instead. And let me tell you, males are more likely to go for a boys army. Nuns in space is for already established 40K fans, and even then only for a small fraction of them.

Sisters have been neglected for a long time for a reason. Meanwhile, the CSM use ancient models despite being one of the most popular armies in the game. Other than Raptors in 2012, they haven't gotten an infantry update since 2007. That's 9 years! Why devote resources to an army that will sell boxes in a short burst instead of doing the same for an army that will provide a steady flow of sales? As for Magnus, I'm sure most CSM players would trade that for a brand new Noise Marine, Plague Marine or Obliterator box.

You could just use tactical Marines to make chaos marines. The same can't really be said for sisters.

So, every tactical marine box that's been out bashed into a chaos marine is why you don't have new chaos marines.

Also, yay sisters! I have two friends in my group salivating as we speak, it's a good time to be in this hobby

StupidYellow wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Dark Eldar are mid tier in terms of popularity which is much higher than most people give them credit for and a decent selling army likely to see support in the future. I bet we would see an uptick with better rules since that is all that's hindering their good sculpts back. http://www.totellstories.com/40k/

They never used to be that's the point.

Also I only ever see space wolves sm players
S.Y.

I was backing you up with some evidence. I like my Dark Kin.

"Plastic sisters will never be a big seller because they're girls, and most boys dont want an army of girls". Uh, citation needed. Sounds like you're projecting your personal hangups on everybody else. What a break with tradition that'd be

 -DE- wrote:
Dark Eldar sold well in 2010, then the sales rapidly fell off and nowadays they are one of the least played armies in the game and haven't received any new models for a long time, with no prospects for an update.

Their new codex plus new rules completely crippled them. IMHO that is a big deal. GW seems to think that there is not at least a part of the customers that will look at the rules before buying the army. I like Kriegsmen and Scions, but is the order system that sold me the Guard models. And still, 7th betrayed us.

Everything else is nuance that a prospective buyer won't research before opting for a space marine force instead. And let me tell you, males are more likely to go for a boys army.

You are probably right, but I cannot help notice in other media how a significant part of the male public chooses to roll, as an example, a female character in MMORPGs. Maybe is fanservice or other stuff not related to sisters (unless you are into repentia! ) but I would not exclude the charm of the amazon on a male customer.

 -DE- wrote:
Dark Eldar sold well in 2010, then the sales rapidly fell off and nowadays they are one of the least played armies in the game and haven't received any new models for a long time, with no prospects for an update. The same thing will happen with Sisters of Battle, I'm positive.

Other than being girls in pseudo-power armor, they simply don't differ enough from stock space marines. They are clad in power armor, wield bolters and meltaguns, and ride in rhinos. This is what makes them poor-man's space marine army - cheap in design, not lucre. Everything else is nuance that a prospective buyer won't research before opting for a space marine force instead. And let me tell you, males are more likely to go for a boys army. Nuns in space is for already established 40K fans, and even then only for a small fraction of them.

Sisters have been neglected for a long time for a reason. Meanwhile, the CSM use ancient models despite being one of the most popular armies in the game. Other than Raptors in 2012, they haven't gotten an infantry update since 2007. That's 9 years! Why devote resources to an army that will sell boxes in a short burst instead of doing the same for an army that will provide a steady flow of sales? As for Magnus, I'm sure most CSM players would trade that for a brand new Noise Marine, Plague Marine or Obliterator box.

Okay I understand why Sisters have been neglected, but GW needs quick cash injections at the moment. Boxed games and niche armies do this. While I do have a CSM army I'm not interested in Magnus or TS.
As you have pointed out I'd rather a noise marine box set I might get the Heresy Sorcerer from bits sellers, possibly even the custodes, yes CSM probably would have a trickle of sales, but I hope GW will do lots of little armies.

Sisters can be one of these, I don't care if they chop the spruce for melee sisters in 7 or 12 years at least it's something.

Blood bowl I'm less on as I've started playing guild ball.

S.Y.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 -DE- wrote:
I'd rather the company dedicated these resources to models that have languished for far too long, such as […] virtually the entire CSM line[…]. But they'd rather push poor-man's space marines...

The irony .

It's rare that I agree with you, but yeah, wow, the irony there is just dripping off that post.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Dude, you'll finally get the chance to adjust your Sisters of Bitter sig

Not a second before all the plastic is in my greedy, sweaty hands!
But yeah I'll have to figure something else . Sisters of Better?
Nice timing I just got a job!

 Mr Morden wrote:

It's not a support problem IMO, it's a gender problem.

I think the reason that Sisters don't sell is because they're a female army.

And no, I'm not attacking women here or getting into a sexist rant, I'm merely highlighting the demographics of our hobby.

The vast majority of the hobby is male gamers, and the target market for GW is teenage boys.

The space marine tactical squad will never go out of production, because it's popular and appeals to the demographic.

9 times out of ten, I'd bet my house that when a kid goes into a GW for the first time to buy something he's after the tactical squad, or the knight titan, or the Tau super battle suit or whatever. There's always the odd exception, but I doubt if a sister's squad is at the top of the wish list.

Yes, initially, Sisters will sell, becuase loyal fans will snap up the boxes, but is that enough for the long run?

There seems to be very few female wargamers in the hobby and it would be silly to think that female wargamers will automatically buy female models, and even the loyal fans, regardless of them being male or female, might not be enough to keep the production going.

And, let's not forget that this is partially due to a change in management. What if management changes again, and the new guy, Alan Merrit mark II, decides to scrap Genestealer cults and sisters?

No GW manager regardless of regime, will ever scrap Space Marines, but sisters always seem to be a hostage to fortune.
Feth, I'm still holding out for a new Brettonian army book

I think there are several reasons that people will buy new models

They look cool
They like the fluff / background
They have great (or broken) rules

The third one in particular is regardless of gender and given that at least some of those who buy purely based on their rules may not even paint the models - there are likely to care even less about the fine details such as if they have boobs or not.

Its more along the lines of "Wow a five man ( ) squad can take four meltas, scouting, ignore cover and in a decent vehicle as well"

I know that those who saw my sisters in action in the local GW store were impressed but several stated they were put off by metal rather than plastic and the price per model.

I think there is a decent market for Sisters but I am admittedly bias - but the reaction to the hint was in the main extremely positive and generated far more reaction that say the model of Magnus! Female models do very well in other games and in a variety of recent kickstarters.

Consequently I hope it was not just a throwaway joke.

I disagree. I think visual appeal for the target demographic is what sells. Yes, 4 melta guns in a 5 man squad is great on the tabletop if you know the game, but if you've never played 40k before in your life, and are buying what you like the look of, then melta guns don't mean much IMO.

Giant stomping Tau Mega Battle suit of doom on the other hand would appeal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My second point is that I see no contradiction in people playing CSM, despite people saying they're only tactical marines with spiky bits.

This is true, but 40k hinges on this good and evil narrative that has featured in culture and literature since the dawn of humanity.

Space Marines turning bad is the cornerstone of the game, arguably the most important part of the fluff.

Remove that, and the fluff would collapse.

What do Sisters add to that? Nothing, IMO.

If they never existed, 40k would continue along its merry path.

CSM and their history is important to the game, Sisters of Battle are not.

No offence to the loyal sisters players, I admire your dedication (and as a Brettonian player I know what it's like to be ignored)

but I'm afraid that's the harsh reality.

Would all the excitement die if it's found that Robin Cruddace wrote the book? Then again it's half SM half IG so maybe he would do a good job on it.

Sisters do add one thing - the violence of the church. Without them the religion of the Emperor, one of the cornerstones of the background, isn't represented in the primary game.

I disagree. I think visual appeal for the target demographic is what sells. Yes, 4 melta guns in a 5 man squad is great on the tabletop if you know the game, but if you've never played 40k before in your life, and are buying what you like the look of, then melta guns don't mean much IMO.

Giant stomping Tau Mega Battle suit of doom on the other hand would appeal.

Ah but you are not just selling to people who have never played before. You are selling to a wide and varied group - many of whom will try stuff out in store.

Now if you actually have Sisters models in store and shock that they can use then they:

Might like the look of them, like what the manager gives as a background, like their rules, have somethign different to friends and relatives - lots of reasons.

Yeah these are elite armoured warrior women, burning with the light of the Emperor who like to melt and burn heretics all day every day,- thats right the ones your brother plays with. Remember how he used that "big thing" last week, well these five ladies can kill it all on their own, and they can sneak up on it in the first turn and even if its hiding, it doen't matter! Yes you can buy a squad right now!"

GreenOak wrote:
Sisters do add one thing - the violence of the church. Without them the religion of the Emperor, one of the cornerstones of the background, isn't represented in the primary game.

This is the main point for me. It's the members around a sisters of battle army that make them interesting, fanatical militia, penitent engines, confessors that make sisters interesting. I don't really like or feel pure sisters forces bring anything to the background or anything amazing on the tabletop. I hope the rules reflect this more so than before.

Sisters just look like women trying to be space marines without all the crazy religious fanatical aspect.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

My second point is that I see no contradiction in people playing CSM, despite people saying they're only tactical marines with spiky bits.

This is true, but 40k hinges on this good and evil narrative that has featured in culture and literature since the dawn of humanity.

Space Marines turning bad is the cornerstone of the game, arguably the most important part of the fluff.

Remove that, and the fluff would collapse.

What do Sisters add to that? Nothing, IMO.

If they never existed, 40k would continue along its merry path.

CSM and their history is important to the game, Sisters of Battle are not.

No offence to the loyal sisters players, I admire your dedication (and as a Brettonian player I know what it's like to be ignored)

but I'm afraid that's the harsh reality.

I'm afraid the harsh reality that your love of the Chaos Marine fiction, doesn't make them the cornerstone of the 40,000 universe.

If the forces of the Imperium hunted down the last Heretic Marine tommorrow, the 40K universe would march on.

Chaos would continue ravaging the physical realm with daemons, and the Imperium would still have millions of threats to contend with.

The other harsh reality is that CSM have current plastic models, and sisters do not. There is no need for CSM players to come into every Sororitas rumors thread and whine that there army is more deserving of a revamp, becuase they don't like the aesthetic of their current models. It's very much like a first world child complaining they don't like what their mother made for dinner to a hungry third world orphan.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Giant stomping Tau Mega Battle suit of doom on the other hand would appeal.

What about giant church organ of doom?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
This is true, but 40k hinges on this good and evil narrative that has featured in culture and literature since the dawn of humanity.

Space Marines turning bad is the cornerstone of the game, arguably the most important part of the fluff.

Remove that, and the fluff would collapse.

Meh. It's not like we could still have demons, heretics, chaotic cults, …
Seriously Chaos Marines are very important for the heresy, but since then… not so much.
Replace Codex: CSM with Codex: Chaos, and have CSM be present only as elite and HQ, the rest being cultists and/or IG renegade and/or daemons, and it works just fine with the good and evil narrative.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Giant stomping Tau Mega Battle suit of doom on the other hand would appeal.

What about giant church organ of doom?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
This is true, but 40k hinges on this good and evil narrative that has featured in culture and literature since the dawn of humanity.

Space Marines turning bad is the cornerstone of the game, arguably the most important part of the fluff.

Remove that, and the fluff would collapse.

Meh. It's not like we could still have demons, heretics, chaotic cults, …
Seriously Chaos Marines are very important for the heresy, but since then… not so much.
Replace Codex: CSM with Codex: Chaos, and have CSM be present only as elite and HQ, the rest being cultists and/or IG renegade and/or daemons, and it works just fine with the good and evil narrative.

and even when you drop chaos completely there is still enough stuff for the imperium to fight against. And lets be honest there is no real good in 40k

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


This is true, but 40k hinges on this good and evil narrative that has featured in culture and literature since the dawn of humanity.

Space Marines turning bad is the cornerstone of the game, arguably the most important part of the fluff.

Remove that, and the fluff would collapse.

What do Sisters add to that? Nothing, IMO.

If they never existed, 40k would continue along its merry path.

CSM and their history is important to the game, Sisters of Battle are not.

No offence to the loyal sisters players, I admire your dedication (and as a Brettonian player I know what it's like to be ignored)

but I'm afraid that's the harsh reality.

40k is more Evil vs Evil, or Less Evil vs Really Evil, or Kind of a Dick Vs Absolute Asshat. You can reduce it to a somewhat as relative morality, and then we have many human factions vs many not-humans.

There is not prominence, you could have 40k without space marines, even, since you have guard inquisition and mechanicus. The fluff would be less rich without any of the current factions, but no collapse, sorry.

Sisters add different flavours. You can notice that the 40k factions have been made with a careful blend of many elements. Orks are fantasy orcs, but mad max too, and funny green aliens (a classic, but is so well mixed you notice it only subconsciously sometimes!). Same Eldar, that are Seelie and Unseelie in space, but blend classic and pre-modern exotic cultures and philosofies, and have magitech almost DnDesque. Tau are robotech stuff but in the design of the creatures you can spot some of the Grey Aliens, and there is something starwarsy/star-trek-like in the (asymmetric) confederation of alien cultures. None of these elements are original per se, but they are put together with good care.

Sisters are a blend of things too. Yes, they are the warrior nuns to the warrior monks marines. As nuns are women and as women are amazon. People like amazons, not only because of snu-sn[RECORD DELETED][EXCOMMUNICATED TRAITOR]. They evoke many powerful women of the past and this could be actually an inspiration for the creation of some special character. Celestine is a de facto Prince(ss) Demon of the Emperor. Is fascinating as a concept.

Sisters evoke the witch hunt and witch burning. Is a classic that we find in history and media so it "rings true". They add a needed third pillar to the inquisition orders militant (yes they kind of damaged part of this fluff, but still there is collaboration) with the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch. Add to the fluff the grittiness of the imperial cult, especially the older 3rd edition sisters and the ragtag bunch of misfits they dragged along with them. And there is a lot of potential for other goods, around those.

Sisters on the tabletop can superficially look like marines (power armour, pods) but are not as much as into Psychic powers and shock attacks (drop pods). Do not play in the same way, they have less tools and need more brain to be played. They fill a bit the human gap between scions and marines into the human troops "ladder". So they stats make perfectly sense.

Chaos Marines have old models, but not obsolete models. In a perfect world both lines should be updated, but I ask: which one is in dire need?
You said "no offence" but you are creating artificial priority to fit your needs.

This is the harsh reality.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

My second point is that I see no contradiction in people playing CSM, despite people saying they're only tactical marines with spiky bits.

This is true, but 40k hinges on this good and evil narrative that has featured in culture and literature since the dawn of humanity.

Space Marines turning bad is the cornerstone of the game, arguably the most important part of the fluff.

Remove that, and the fluff would collapse.

What do Sisters add to that? Nothing, IMO.

If they never existed, 40k would continue along its merry path.

CSM and their history is important to the game, Sisters of Battle are not.

No offence to the loyal sisters players, I admire your dedication (and as a Brettonian player I know what it's like to be ignored)

but I'm afraid that's the harsh reality.

I'm afraid the harsh reality that your love of the Chaos Marine fiction, doesn't make them the cornerstone of the 40,000 universe.

If the forces of the Imperium hunted down the last Heretic Marine tommorrow, the 40K universe would march on.

Chaos would continue ravaging the physical realm with daemons, and the Imperium would still have millions of threats to contend with.

The other harsh reality is that CSM have current plastic models, and sisters do not. There is no need for CSM players to come into every Sororitas rumors thread and whine that there army is more deserving of a revamp, becuase they don't like the aesthetic of their current models. It's very much like a first world child complaining they don't like what their mother made for dinner to a hungry third world orphan.

Without a shadow of a doubt, Space Marines define everything about Games Workshop. From being the top selling product, to the giant statue outside Nottingham HQ.

It's all about the Space Marines.

Horus, the Heresy, and Space Marines turning bad is what 40k has been about since day one. I'm not a CSM player anymore, and I like alien factions, and I don't mind Sisters of Battle,

but 40k has always revolved around loyal space marines and traitor marines.

Yes, there's room for Daemons and cults and Tau and Elder, but these all feed into the great river that is the Space Marine. They are the driving force of everything in the 40k universe from a fluff view, to the cold hard buisness view of selling stuff in the shops.

Sisters are only a minor part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Giant stomping Tau Mega Battle suit of doom on the other hand would appeal.

What about giant church organ of doom?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
This is true, but 40k hinges on this good and evil narrative that has featured in culture and literature since the dawn of humanity.

Space Marines turning bad is the cornerstone of the game, arguably the most important part of the fluff.

Remove that, and the fluff would collapse.

Meh. It's not like we could still have demons, heretics, chaotic cults, …
Seriously Chaos Marines are very important for the heresy, but since then… not so much.
Replace Codex: CSM with Codex: Chaos, and have CSM be present only as elite and HQ, the rest being cultists and/or IG renegade and/or daemons, and it works just fine with the good and evil narrative.

I'm not anti-SoB ( I don't mind them) and I'm not pro-CSM (I used to play them)

but these are all off-shoots of the Sheriff (Space Marines) facing down the Horus 'Gang' in the high noon shoot out.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

My second point is that I see no contradiction in people playing CSM, despite people saying they're only tactical marines with spiky bits.

This is true, but 40k hinges on this good and evil narrative that has featured in culture and literature since the dawn of humanity.

Space Marines turning bad is the cornerstone of the game, arguably the most important part of the fluff.

Remove that, and the fluff would collapse.

What do Sisters add to that? Nothing, IMO.

If they never existed, 40k would continue along its merry path.

CSM and their history is important to the game, Sisters of Battle are not.

No offence to the loyal sisters players, I admire your dedication (and as a Brettonian player I know what it's like to be ignored)

but I'm afraid that's the harsh reality.

I'm afraid the harsh reality that your love of the Chaos Marine fiction, doesn't make them the cornerstone of the 40,000 universe.

If the forces of the Imperium hunted down the last Heretic Marine tommorrow, the 40K universe would march on.

Chaos would continue ravaging the physical realm with daemons, and the Imperium would still have millions of threats to contend with.

The other harsh reality is that CSM have current plastic models, and sisters do not. There is no need for CSM players to come into every Sororitas rumors thread and whine that there army is more deserving of a revamp, becuase they don't like the aesthetic of their current models. It's very much like a first world child complaining they don't like what their mother made for dinner to a hungry third world orphan.

Without a shadow of a doubt, Space Marines define everything about Games Workshop. From being the top selling product, to the giant statue outside Nottingham HQ.

It's all about the Space Marines.

Horus, the Heresy, and Space Marines turning bad is what 40k has been about since day one. I'm not a CSM player anymore, and I like alien factions, and I don't mind Sisters of Battle,

but 40k has always revolved around loyal space marines and traitor marines.

Yes, there's room for Daemons and cults and Tau and Elder, but these all feed into the great river that is the Space Marine. They are the driving force of everything in the 40k universe from a fluff view, to the cold hard buisness view of selling stuff in the shops.

Sisters are only a minor part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Giant stomping Tau Mega Battle suit of doom on the other hand would appeal.

What about giant church organ of doom?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
This is true, but 40k hinges on this good and evil narrative that has featured in culture and literature since the dawn of humanity.

Space Marines turning bad is the cornerstone of the game, arguably the most important part of the fluff.

Remove that, and the fluff would collapse.

Meh. It's not like we could still have demons, heretics, chaotic cults, …
Seriously Chaos Marines are very important for the heresy, but since then… not so much.
Replace Codex: CSM with Codex: Chaos, and have CSM be present only as elite and HQ, the rest being cultists and/or IG renegade and/or daemons, and it works just fine with the good and evil narrative.

I'm not anti-SoB ( I don't mind them) and I'm not pro-CSM (I used to play them)

but these are all off-shoots of the Sheriff (Space Marines) facing down the Horus 'Gang' in the high noon shoot out.

You're right, Sisters are only a small part. and Space marines are the cornerstone of the game and the big sellers. But that's not the point you were arguing. You were arguing that the heresy defines the setting and it doesn't. For anybody who's not a marine player (spiky or otherwise) the heresy and marines are a non issue. Tyranids, Eldar, Tau, even the modern iteration of the guard, if the chaos marines were wiped out tomorrow, it would have no major bearing on the setting. So let sisters have their time in the sun. It's not as if chaos marines don't get regular updates anyway. Hell, the whole point of that video was to hype up plastic magnus and thousand sons.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


This is true, but 40k hinges on this good and evil narrative that has featured in culture and literature since the dawn of humanity.

Space Marines turning bad is the cornerstone of the game, arguably the most important part of the fluff.

Remove that, and the fluff would collapse.

What do Sisters add to that? Nothing, IMO.

If they never existed, 40k would continue along its merry path.

CSM and their history is important to the game, Sisters of Battle are not.

No offence to the loyal sisters players, I admire your dedication (and as a Brettonian player I know what it's like to be ignored)

but I'm afraid that's the harsh reality.

40k is more Evil vs Evil, or Less Evil vs Really Evil, or Kind of a Dick Vs Absolute Asshat. You can reduce it to a somewhat as relative morality, and then we have many human factions vs many not-humans.

There is not prominence, you could have 40k without space marines, even, since you have guard inquisition and mechanicus. The fluff would be less rich without any of the current factions, but no collapse, sorry.

Sisters add different flavours. You can notice that the 40k factions have been made with a careful blend of many elements. Orks are fantasy orcs, but mad max too, and funny green aliens (a classic, but is so well mixed you notice it only subconsciously sometimes!). Same Eldar, that are Seelie and Unseelie in space, but blend classic and pre-modern exotic cultures and philosofies, and have magitech almost DnDesque. Tau are robotech stuff but in the design of the creatures you can spot some of the Grey Aliens, and there is something starwarsy/star-trek-like in the (asymmetric) confederation of alien cultures. None of these elements are original per se, but they are put together with good care.

Sisters are a blend of things too. Yes, they are the warrior nuns to the warrior monks marines. As nuns are women and as women are amazon. People like amazons, not only because of snu-sn[RECORD DELETED][EXCOMMUNICATED TRAITOR]. They evoke many powerful women of the past and this could be actually an inspiration for the creation of some special character. Celestine is a de facto Prince(ss) Demon of the Emperor. Is fascinating as a concept.

Sisters evoke the witch hunt and witch burning. Is a classic that we find in history and media so it "rings true". They add a needed third pillar to the inquisition orders militant (yes they kind of damaged part of this fluff, but still there is collaboration) with the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch. Add to the fluff the grittiness of the imperial cult, especially the older 3rd edition sisters and the ragtag bunch of misfits they dragged along with them. And there is a lot of potential for other goods, around those.

Sisters on the tabletop can superficially look like marines (power armour, pods) but are not as much as into Psychic powers and shock attacks (drop pods). Do not play in the same way, they have less tools and need more brain to be played. They fill a bit the human gap between scions and marines into the human troops "ladder". So they stats make perfectly sense.

Chaos Marines have old models, but not obsolete models. In a perfect world both lines should be updated, but I ask: which one is in dire need?
You said "no offence" but you are creating artificial priority to fit your needs.

This is the harsh reality.

They are a supporting act, a good one, and nothing more than that, IMO.

Other important Imperial factions have their role to play, no question, but let's look at brass facts:

Who started the Great Crusade and got mankind fighting the Eldar and the Orks again? Space Marines.

Who brought Mars on board? Space Marines.

Who made the Imperium what it is today? Space Marines, because the heresy forced a re-organisation that saw the Imperial Army be the independent Imperial Guard, ditto Imperial Navy.

And finally, who do Sisters of Battle worship? The Emperor, the Ultimate Space Marine.

Space Marines drive everything about the games, the GW company, everything...

Hell, even those golden warriors from AOS are Space Marines in all but name...

I rest my case

PS. I don't mind Sisters, but I think Forge World should take the reins of this one.

Ah man, I really hope GW deliver on this tease. The prospect if expanding my SoB army pleases me.

EDC

 -DE- wrote:
Other than being girls in pseudo-power armor, they simply don't differ enough from stock space marines. They are clad in power armor, wield bolters and meltaguns, and ride in rhinos. This is what makes them poor-man's space marine army - cheap in design, not lucre. Everything else is nuance that a prospective buyer won't research before opting for a space marine force instead. And let me tell you, males are more likely to go for a boys army. Nuns in space is for already established 40K fans, and even then only for a small fraction of them.

Sisters themselves just aren't terribly strong conceptually, especially when you're talking about a pure Sisters force. However, I think the freakshow stuff has more conceptual potential, and obviously much more differentiation from the SM line. Build and focus a codex around Ecclesiarchy forces -- perhaps with the Sisters serving as Elites? -- and you might have a more compelling army.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


This is true, but 40k hinges on this good and evil narrative that has featured in culture and literature since the dawn of humanity.

Space Marines turning bad is the cornerstone of the game, arguably the most important part of the fluff.

Remove that, and the fluff would collapse.

What do Sisters add to that? Nothing, IMO.

If they never existed, 40k would continue along its merry path.

CSM and their history is important to the game, Sisters of Battle are not.

No offence to the loyal sisters players, I admire your dedication (and as a Brettonian player I know what it's like to be ignored)

but I'm afraid that's the harsh reality.

40k is more Evil vs Evil, or Less Evil vs Really Evil, or Kind of a Dick Vs Absolute Asshat. You can reduce it to a somewhat as relative morality, and then we have many human factions vs many not-humans.

There is not prominence, you could have 40k without space marines, even, since you have guard inquisition and mechanicus. The fluff would be less rich without any of the current factions, but no collapse, sorry.

Sisters add different flavours. You can notice that the 40k factions have been made with a careful blend of many elements. Orks are fantasy orcs, but mad max too, and funny green aliens (a classic, but is so well mixed you notice it only subconsciously sometimes!). Same Eldar, that are Seelie and Unseelie in space, but blend classic and pre-modern exotic cultures and philosofies, and have magitech almost DnDesque. Tau are robotech stuff but in the design of the creatures you can spot some of the Grey Aliens, and there is something starwarsy/star-trek-like in the (asymmetric) confederation of alien cultures. None of these elements are original per se, but they are put together with good care.

Sisters are a blend of things too. Yes, they are the warrior nuns to the warrior monks marines. As nuns are women and as women are amazon. People like amazons, not only because of snu-sn[RECORD DELETED][EXCOMMUNICATED TRAITOR]. They evoke many powerful women of the past and this could be actually an inspiration for the creation of some special character. Celestine is a de facto Prince(ss) Demon of the Emperor. Is fascinating as a concept.

Sisters evoke the witch hunt and witch burning. Is a classic that we find in history and media so it "rings true". They add a needed third pillar to the inquisition orders militant (yes they kind of damaged part of this fluff, but still there is collaboration) with the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch. Add to the fluff the grittiness of the imperial cult, especially the older 3rd edition sisters and the ragtag bunch of misfits they dragged along with them. And there is a lot of potential for other goods, around those.

Sisters on the tabletop can superficially look like marines (power armour, pods) but are not as much as into Psychic powers and shock attacks (drop pods). Do not play in the same way, they have less tools and need more brain to be played. They fill a bit the human gap between scions and marines into the human troops "ladder". So they stats make perfectly sense.

Chaos Marines have old models, but not obsolete models. In a perfect world both lines should be updated, but I ask: which one is in dire need?
You said "no offence" but you are creating artificial priority to fit your needs.

This is the harsh reality.

They are a supporting act, a good one, and nothing more than that, IMO.

Other important Imperial factions have their role to play, no question, but let's look at brass facts:

Who started the Great Crusade and got mankind fighting the Eldar and the Orks again? Space Marines.

Who brought Mars on board? Space Marines.

Who made the Imperium what it is today? Space Marines, because the heresy forced a re-organisation that saw the Imperial Army be the independent Imperial Guard, ditto Imperial Navy.

And finally, who do Sisters of Battle worship? The Emperor, the Ultimate Space Marine.

Space Marines drive everything about the games, the GW company, everything...

Hell, even those golden warriors from AOS are Space Marines in all but name...

I rest my case

PS. I don't mind Sisters, but I think Forge World should take the reins of this one.

What? Humanity was fighting the orks and eldar during the golden age of humanity. well before the space marines were even thought of by the emperor. The emperor brought mars on board, by pretending to be their tech god. again, it had nothing to do with the space marines. The guard makes the imperium what it is today, the space marines are just a strike force. it's the guard that do the grunt and heavy work. And the Sisters worship the emperor as the god of humanity. they can barely put up with space marines and consider them mutants. Your case is a "D-". Revise it and re-present it.

Wonder if this will get locked soon as it's just wishlisting and lore discussions... seven pages over a throwaway gag. Aiiieee.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

It's not a support problem IMO, it's a gender problem.

I think the reason that Sisters don't sell is because they're a female army.

And no, I'm not attacking women here or getting into a sexist rant, I'm merely highlighting the demographics of our hobby.

The vast majority of the hobby is male gamers, and the target market for GW is teenage boys.

The space marine tactical squad will never go out of production, because it's popular and appeals to the demographic.

9 times out of ten, I'd bet my house that when a kid goes into a GW for the first time to buy something he's after the tactical squad, or the knight titan, or the Tau super battle suit or whatever. There's always the odd exception, but I doubt if a sister's squad is at the top of the wish list.

Yes, initially, Sisters will sell, becuase loyal fans will snap up the boxes, but is that enough for the long run?

There seems to be very few female wargamers in the hobby and it would be silly to think that female wargamers will automatically buy female models, and even the loyal fans, regardless of them being male or female, might not be enough to keep the production going.

And, let's not forget that this is partially due to a change in management. What if management changes again, and the new guy, Alan Merrit mark II, decides to scrap Genestealer cults and sisters?

No GW manager regardless of regime, will ever scrap Space Marines, but sisters always seem to be a hostage to fortune.
Feth, I'm still holding out for a new Brettonian army book

I think there are several reasons that people will buy new models

They look cool
They like the fluff / background
They have great (or broken) rules

The third one in particular is regardless of gender and given that at least some of those who buy purely based on their rules may not even paint the models - there are likely to care even less about the fine details such as if they have boobs or not.

Its more along the lines of "Wow a five man ( ) squad can take four meltas, scouting, ignore cover and in a decent vehicle as well"

I know that those who saw my sisters in action in the local GW store were impressed but several stated they were put off by metal rather than plastic and the price per model.

I think there is a decent market for Sisters but I am admittedly bias - but the reaction to the hint was in the main extremely positive and generated far more reaction that say the model of Magnus! Female models do very well in other games and in a variety of recent kickstarters.

Consequently I hope it was not just a throwaway joke.

I disagree. I think visual appeal for the target demographic is what sells. Yes, 4 melta guns in a 5 man squad is great on the tabletop if you know the game, but if you've never played 40k before in your life, and are buying what you like the look of, then melta guns don't mean much IMO.

Giant stomping Tau Mega Battle suit of doom on the other hand would appeal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My second point is that I see no contradiction in people playing CSM, despite people saying they're only tactical marines with spiky bits.

This is true, but 40k hinges on this good and evil narrative that has featured in culture and literature since the dawn of humanity.

Space Marines turning bad is the cornerstone of the game, arguably the most important part of the fluff.

Remove that, and the fluff would collapse.

What do Sisters add to that? Nothing, IMO.

If they never existed, 40k would continue along its merry path.

CSM and their history is important to the game, Sisters of Battle are not.

No offence to the loyal sisters players, I admire your dedication (and as a Brettonian player I know what it's like to be ignored)

but I'm afraid that's the harsh reality.

Sisters add several things to 40k but I'm unsure if you just want to be antagonistic or you just think two factions are important ?, who's next for the scrap heap her commandant Tau?.

1. Sisters will add females in power Armour . which even if you don't like them, I'm fairly sure they will be used as the basis of many a conversion. which you might like.

2. space marines are fairly rare in the 40k universe while most people within have possibly heard of these super beings very few will probably see them. while id like this to be more represented on tabletop it probably wont be. Most citizens will have seen one of the Sisters at some point. even if you hate them which it seems you do. They were in the game since RT, most of the fluff for the space marines hasn't. if you find the old Sister Sin image, sisters haven't really aesthetically changed. Space marines are vastly different i mean the old Ultramarines were actually the second version and their chief librarian was half eldar. Sisters were always a kind of police its just now they hunt heretics instead of everyone. and who knew Fulgrim was trapped in a painting??

3. I don't know if you care but the Ecclesiarchy is fairly important to the fluff of the Imperium. Sisters are the militant wing. If you can have 2 sets of marines why cant we have the sisters for the third of the 3 branches of the inquisition? what will you replace them with deathwatch with flamers?

4. chaos is getting new stuff BEFORE SISTERS. gw could flatline chaos just like they did after the 2nd ed and 3.5 dex . I still have figures I am unable to use from chaos. At least I can use my sisters


5. Sisters have a strong fan base or at least an extremely vocal one. If they sell well will you deny squat (demiurg) a chance because they are not space marines? give the fans a chance to speak with their wallets if they fail to sell then, then perhaps you can say they are unimportant.


6. Chaos are important but they are just Spikey marines at the moment, they should be more, but they are just as important as sisters. Sisters probably are one of the first lines of defense as well as pdf regiments. Chaos probably hit them first in any campaign as usually theirs a few around every Ecclisarchy church or what have you. As I've said I wont be buying any of the new TS stuff it just does not appeal to me.

7. Don't like them Don't buy them. speak with your wallet.

8. I play TK and Brets but really this is a sisters thread if you dislike them go start a thread in general or something and all the hate can go there, im excited for 40k for the first time in years. as fantasy is effectively dead for me. If this turns to be a joke I think I'm done with GW. My brother has waited years for sisters but hes not going to buy any because of the AOS and recent grumpy culture of gw players and I can see why.

9. Adding a cool faction of crazy flamethrower killer nuns, how cool is that? I think its very cool its unique and we cant all be copy and paste space marines. Saying to all those who held out hope you get something.

10. I know 1 person who plays chaos other than myself but he uses the GK dex as counts as. I think chaos does need a new tactical squad. New Rules, but Abbadon, is really kinda meh they need a serious evil to make them credible because all hes done really is failed 12 times. The whole faction feels flat, sister players are Vocal, be vocal it seems to have worked. Sisters don't feel flat, unless you just say poor mans female marines. Which can be done to chaos more so as they are just marines with evil eyes. The stats are the same ( and honestly csm should be superior to regular SM after all 10k years of fighting in the warp improves nothing?), Sisters are at least different in that regards. the only problem I see is with acts of faith, its never really worked, turn it into a kind of Psyker ability that uses squads instead of warp charges maybe??

11. sisters need effectively 2 boxes 1 for troops which also make specialists and, maybe chars too with bits another for maybe Repentia?, rhino, same that is easy and the Exorcist is already done. Chaos need 4 boxes for cult troops possibly 8 if you include terminators, 1 tactical, the 2 awful Finecast chars in metal. Cult Dudes, maybe even a box for each legion even if you get trickle sales that is a lot of boxes, excluding the monster engines and possible Beastmen they should have. 2 vs a lot of boxes is simple maths. I can see why splitting chaos works it will be easier to well sell for 1 and for 2 you don't have 4- 6 months of just chaos.

12. While its fine they could be pushed into the BG and while I'd be effectively done with GW, SM make them money. As somebody who knows a few Indy stores I really don't see chaos sell well even when they got new stuff. Sisters kits did well but that was back in 96. Penitent engines did okay as did Exorcists, but they quickly folded into GW only so I cant really say on that.

Just let sisters players have their day. If its a joke then its a rather cruel one and you can laugh.


S.Y.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


They are a supporting act, a good one, and nothing more than that, IMO.

Other important Imperial factions have their role to play, no question, but let's look at brass facts:

Who started the Great Crusade and got mankind fighting the Eldar and the Orks again? Space Marines.

Who brought Mars on board? Space Marines.

Who made the Imperium what it is today? Space Marines, because the heresy forced a re-organisation that saw the Imperial Army be the independent Imperial Guard, ditto Imperial Navy.

And finally, who do Sisters of Battle worship? The Emperor, the Ultimate Space Marine.

Space Marines drive everything about the games, the GW company, everything...

Hell, even those golden warriors from AOS are Space Marines in all but name...

I rest my case

PS. I don't mind Sisters, but I think Forge World should take the reins of this one.

Fine, they did a of of stuff, but is somewhat due to the fact that GW pushes its poster boys as much as possible.

But my point is that an hypotetical 40k without Marines would be perhaps less diverse, but still incredibly rich of material and lore. Still is, see all the things concerning the apostasy, the assassinorum, and whatnot. This ignoring the xenos players; but is ok, even GW does.

Accept that people that do not like having Muhreenz in their face 24/7, and we could be fine even without them (not something I wish, albeit seeing them in 1735715 flavours begins to nauseate me).

How much they are pushed as models (sigmarines included) is due to a positive feedback concerning the company and the playerbase. When someone is a beginner, is often driven to these simpler, smooth surfaced, drybrushable supermen whose playstyle, depending on the edition, alternates between "forgiving army" and "forgiving army with special snowflake status". So those not attracted directly by SM are often told to try them out. Big sales pushes GW to "more mureenz" and even to introduce them to other systems, "to make them AWESOMER" (AoS).

Eeeeuuuuugh.

And the Emperor is not a Space Marine. One of the tragedies of the heresy is how much distances Empy kept between him and the primarchs, they seeing him as a father, he seeing them as living weapons (albeit he felt at least for Horus I guess).

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Wonder if this will get locked soon as it's just wishlisting and lore discussions... seven pages over a throwaway gag.
Aiiieee.

Nice really nice

cant you people who don't like them go poo poo in a thread just for you?

S.Y.