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I'm not sure GW was ever as bad as some people think, but I think they've shown some signs of improvement. The people that like AOS really enjoy it, and by all accounts its a fun game. People also enjoy the board games. 40k is still, well, a mess. They've started doing some bundles and boxed games with pretty significant discounts, and they've started reaching out a bit on social media.

GW's long term health depends on if it can keep 40k a game that people are excited to play. The models are fine, even if I don't care as much for the new aesthetic, they are technically amazing.

Generally I think the answer to the question depends on if you play any of the games regularly.

Buy stuff to collect / for the fluff ? Then GW have gotten better in the last year

Buy to play ? Then GW is the same, if not worse, over the last year.

X-wing you need 3-8 models max to play a 100/6 game so at £10 an expansion I'm fine with that.

But when you're talking about £500-700 for a entry level army in 40k that's an insane investment just to start playing.

£100 is what your intro force costs in most systems and that's the point where most gamers are comfortable.

hobojebus wrote:
X-wing you need 3-8 models max to play a 100/6 game so at £10 an expansion I'm fine with that.

But when you're talking about £500-700 for a entry level army in 40k that's an insane investment just to start playing.

£100 is what your intro force costs in most systems and that's the point where most gamers are comfortable.

It's one of several things that killed WHFB. They dropped boxes from 20 to 10 on many models, raised the price per model and then released an edition that encouraged unit sizes of 30+

How the hell do convince a mate to buy in to a game like that?

Harriticus wrote:I've been here bemoaning GeeDubs for years now, particularly during the dark days of 2013. Yet since Kirby got the boot as CEO, I've noticed that GW has gotten a bit better recently.

Better yes, but now I believe GW is still the same old same old. It's all smoke and mirrors. It's the illusion that they have changed but they are still the same.

On the gameplay/codex front, I think they've done a good job introducing new armies. Mechanicus (despite being unnecessarily split up into 2 codex's), Genestealer Cult, and Deathwatch codex's have all been solid releases.

Here is proof. How do you put in a negative when praising for something good they did? Right there the Mechanicus being split up is showing GW hasn't changed.

On the modelling front, I think they've also improved in the last year. The new models for stuff like Skitarii and Genestealers fit their themes quite well and get the job done without being overly complicated. It's a far cry from disasters like the Taurox. They're also giving fans what they want with regards to models: minis like Primarchs and plastic sisters. The "made to order" concept has fans quite happy, though of course cautious about the limitations of it.

Minis were always improving even under GW of old. As for Primarchs, plastic sisters and "made to order" it's a bit premature with that. Wait till it actually happens. Saying something how good something is before it happens is not a good debate.

GW has finally made its presence known on social media in the last year, making them feel like a far less bitter, backwards, and impersonal company. The recent announcement of plastic sisters on facebook is a good example of modern marketing from GW.

This is where the smoke and mirrors come in. The illusion of change. So now that GW embraces social media it shows GW has changed. A Mugger can use social media. Does that make them a good person after stealing your money?

On the lore front, GW has finally acceded to fan demands and started progressing the story. Though the actual events have been lackluster, I think there's a sense that gak is finally going down in 999999.M41.

GW has made several good decisions with its IP in the last few years. Warhammer Total War and Dawn of War 3 being the best examples. 40K comics by a third party are also returning, indicating they're a bit less paranoid about what is published in their name now. GW is also no longer attacking smaller companies with petty copyright claims, instead renaming their own mini's. While this is still juvenile overly paranoid protection of their IP, I think it's a step in the right direction.

You are forgetting 40K Plant vs Zomibes. For every good IP decisions there are many poor ones. Funny you don't talk about them. Leaving out facts doesn't make GW any better, just your argument false.

Of course they haven't been perfect. I find Age of Sigmar to be awful. The prices are still too high. Thus if GW's gak level was 9,000 in 2013, it would be 8,990 today. Nonetheless, I am cautiously optimistic about the future of Games Workshop

So you find Age of Sigmar to be awful prices to high should show you that GW hasn't changed at all then. So your are proving yourself wrong in your debate.

With that said, 2016 has been the most I have spent money on GW. I haven't spent this much on GW in a few years so this smoke and mirrors approach is working at least on me. Will it last? I don't think so. I see GW of old creeping back in. To keep playing GW is just the same. Prices are even getting higher. Only one buzz saw in a pack for genestealers cult sprues when the rules can have 2 in a unit? So it's back to same old GW where placing only one bit in a box but rules tell you can use a many.

Wayniac wrote:Better? Yes. But there was also no place to go but up from what they were doing before. However the proof will be in the pudding of how they actually want to fix things and they've shown zero desire so far to actually fix the mess that 40K is in, in fact they seem to want to do the opposite by putting out more and more stuff to increase the bloat and make it that much harder to fix later.

I agree. It will be the new 40K edition to see if GW has changed at all or not. Sadly still under a year away. Why wait? Right there should raise up RED FLAGS. Why wait over a year to fix their mess?

Bartali wrote:

On the gameplay/codex front, I think they've done a good job introducing new armies. Mechanicus (despite being unnecessarily split up into 2 codex's), Genestealer Cult, and Deathwatch codex's have all been solid releases.

Whilst on the flip side both Angels Blade and Kill Team have been lazy re-hashes.

I think a lot of people are waiting on 8th ed 40K before judging 'new' GW.

See perfect response right here. GW had a chance to fix the game but yet still does old GW tactics.

So while I Like the illusion that GW is putting out, it's all smoke and mirrors and GW is really the same old same old.

Joyboozer wrote:When those warhammer tv videos make a joke about the price they're charging for Kharn the Betrayer I'll agree with you.

What did they say? I missed it.

I think GW has improved. I believe the disastrous launch of Age of Sigmar in 2015 was the wakeup call they needed, but GW is a big boat and it takes time to turn around.

I agree with most of you here, in particular Polonius, so far in the last year, they've mostly been doing things I approve of. They've made AoS into a playable skirmish game that people I know enjoy, their board games get rave reviews on BoardGameGeek, and 40k remains a Byzantine mess.

If I had my way, I would attempt a rewrite of 40k which would result in two separate rule sets. I would create a game intended for small armies and skirmishes, which would retain much of what is 40k today, with a recommended max points ceiling, and I would replace the main game with a much simpler, platoon level rule set. Both games would make use of the same models, but the skirmish game would treat special rules differently and emphasise infantry.

Comparing whatever GW is doing to X-Wing, is like comparing apples and oranges. They're both fruits, and sometimes you don't want to bother peeling the orange, so you take the apple, but then there are those of us who only eat oranges and find the peeling rewarding. And if you don't want either, you can have orange juice.

You mean 40K and Apocalypse, or more like Kill Team and 40K?

Herzlos wrote:
You mean 40K and Apocalypse, or more like Kill Team and 40K?

I'm not really familiar with Kill Team, but from what I've read it doesn't allow vehicles and models act as separate units, and that's not entirely what I had in mind either.

What 40k really needs is a fundamental rewrite, and I don't know what that should involve, except I would have liked the game to move away from the "I go, you go" structure, which doesn't work well in large games, and replace it with randomised unit activations. In which case you wouldn't need to wait for you turn, and I believe it would make the game feel more interactive, because it would force players to react more to their opponents. The only purpose of saving throws is to give you a false sense of involvement in the other player's turn, and we could do away with all that with an alternating unit turn order. It would also remove the huge advantage certain armies get from taking the first turn.

Also Scenario Objectives should always be based primarily on the armies involved, and it doesn't make any sense that both armies should have the same objectives. It would arguably make for a better system if both sides received objectives tailored to their abilities, or received more points for objectives that were more difficult for them, based on the opposing player's army and the effective scenario.

Aside from all that, which belongs to a different sub-forum anyway, I would have liked to develop 40k into two different games; one squad level, the other platoon level. The squad level game could be a skirmish game suitable for tournaments, beginners and so on, with tightly balanced rules and restrictions so it doesn't allow for the sort of things which are now breaking 40k games, such as Lords of War units, non-canon allies, death stars and the other garbage.

The platoon level game should be more simplified than current 40k, but more suitable for scenario games with uneven sides, with tight, streamlined rules, less bookkeeping, less downtime. The core mechanics should be roughly the same, but the squad level game should offer more options and special rules, but with a smaller selection of special vehicles, weapon platforms, and other drastic, or unsuitable content, which on the other hand would be fine in the platoon level game.

As of right now, the rules delve more into the particular types of pistol you're allowed to issue to your characters, than the vehicles and titans of the game. And this feels very weird.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
I'll tell you when 40k 8th edition hits.

Me, and my regular opponents, are on this train of thought.

If 8th is bad I'm sure a fan made 9th will come about, the people did a great job with fantasy.

They showed us that if GW keeps failing we as a community can do better.

I think they've done immeasurably better this year but yes, like many other I'm going to make my final decision based on what 8th edition looks like. I'm honestly hoping for a simplification of rules similar to AoS. Not necessarily that extreme but something along those lines. 40k needs a reboot similar to it's 2nd to 3rd transition.


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hobojebus wrote:
If 8th is bad I'm sure a fan made 9th will come about, the people did a great job with fantasy.

They showed us that if GW keeps failing we as a community can do better.

I didn't care for 8th or 9th Age. AoS with the Generals Compendium on the other hand has been excellent.

On the whole, I've been pleasantly surprised by so much of what they've done over the past year (especially after I'd basically written them off over the last few years.)

SKR.HH wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 AesSedai wrote:
- The releases of the past few years are of unparalleled quality. Even the packaging looks much better.

Sometimes it's worth to have a look outside the bubble.

In regards to the main topic, I've said this thing many times before and some other posters have already said it here so let's keep it simple: rules are still a mess (actually getting more and more bloated with every new supplement) and prices are still insane (actually getting even worse with every new release).

Okay... I'll bite. Which manufacturer offers (highclass) SciFi and (High-Fantasy) in plastic for a game with mini counts in the same area like WH40k or Aos?

Yeah, so, still waiting for you to dispel my notion...

SKR.HH wrote:
Okay... I'll bite. Which manufacturer offers (highclass) SciFi and (High-Fantasy) in plastic for a game with mini counts in the same area like WH40k or Aos?

Does said manufacturer also have to be including at least five skulls per model?

I mean, I quoted a post that talked about "unparalleled" quality. Nothing was said about the material, or the genre, or the games intended to be played with said models.

Anyway, since you seem to be going down that route, I'd say Mantic. Just check the stuff they've been showing for their future Warpath release (there's a thread in the News & Rumours section if you want to see it there).

Have you seen Dreamforge's range? Or Frostgrave's plastic boxes? Or Perry Miniatures, whose minis can be used for fantasy settings?

If we move away from plastics, because you know, materials such as resin and metal are also valid for manufacturing miniatures, the list is endless. Hitech Miniatures (you may or may not like the style, but the quality is undeniable), Raging Heroes, Russian Alternative, MOM Miniatures, Avatars of War, etc etc.

If we only take model quality into account, and disregard settings, styles and materials... in my eyes nothing has still managed to beat some of the models Rackham released during the 00s. Back then they just made most GW sculptors look like pathetic amateurs. So when I read about GW's "unparalelled" quality I can't help but laugh.

As I said, it's very worthwhile to just have a look outside the GW bubble.

Mantic's best stuff is about on par with gw's worst. Dreamforge has a very limited and very generic aesthetic. Frostgrave is interesting but also quite generic. Avatars of war stuff looks good but they have major shipping issues.
Rackham was great but unfortunately no longer exist. Some of thier designers went on to work for gw.

What I like best about gw's current output is the boardgames. BAC, overkill, gorechosen and especially silver tower have been very well received by the wider boardgaming community.
With the prospero game, bloodbowl and more on the way this shows no sign of letting up.

I've seen tons of alternatives thanks to 9th age and the only companies that'd tempt me away from a GW purchase are Gamezone, Perry, Reaper and BlackTree miniatures. (Though metal models are a full stop on my enthusiasm)

That's just my view, of course. It's subjective like art, really. One man's GW figure is another man's Mantic and vice-versa.

The price of the new Kharne the Betrayer indicates that they aren't doing all that much better.

Yup. You can probably find someone out there who perfers the taurox to the goliath, or thinks the old version of nagash is better than the new one. I dislike resin for the health issues and metal for the modeling issues. For me gw going all plastic was the best decision they ever made.

They've brought back everything that was great about 2nd edition to 7th edition.

Mechanicus, Genestealer Cult, Adpeta Sororitas....

Davor wrote:

GW has finally made its presence known on social media in the last year, making them feel like a far less bitter, backwards, and impersonal company. The recent announcement of plastic sisters on facebook is a good example of modern marketing from GW.

This is where the smoke and mirrors come in. The illusion of change. So now that GW embraces social media it shows GW has changed. A Mugger can use social media. Does that make them a good person after stealing your money?

Seriously. My local tire shop has a Facebook page, and a Twitter account, and a Google+ page. Social media is part of the cost of doing business now. GW returning to social media isn't good, just less shameful.

Most of the changes over the past year have been along the same lines: small things to return to the baseline of a decently-run business. Everyone's all excited about mining old fluff and bundles with actual discounts. Meanwhile, prices keep increasing, and the rules, fluff, and profit continue their steady decline.

Better, yeah.

What would really impress me is if they released the next edition and updated every army simultaneously for the new edition. None of this holdover from 10 years ago nonsense.

And berzerkers on juggernauts. *drool*

They are like the cheating girlfriend who only fethed five dudes this last weekend, instead of the eight she fethed the weekend before.

Better in a very subjective and narrow point of view.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Better, yeah.

What would really impress me is if they released the next edition and updated every army simultaneously for the new edition. None of this holdover from 10 years ago nonsense.

And berzerkers on juggernauts. *drool*

Would Bloodcrushers of Khorne help on the juggernaut front? Check AoS Khorne stuff if that sounds interesting.

I also agree that the 3rd edition approach of having army lists come out simultaneously with the edition release.

Upon thinking about this have had something of an epiphany. I honestly don't know!

I've played one game of 40k in the past two years, following on from a bad 6th run when my infantry were being carpet-bombed by Tomix toys (and I refused to partake in a new miniature range splurge to compete), a game every 6 months or so, after which time I'd forgotten how poor the experience was, I've sold all of my stuff. Had a quick try with AoS, not even on the same page as WHFB as an experience (I guess as it doesn't have any pages! ), I don't know how on earth people have replaced their former game with it.

As for the latest Deathwatch, Genestealers, Gorechosen etc. they all look really nice, lovely miniatures. But I have absolutely no compunction to play them! I've gone from being a humongous Black Library fan to not caring, the books have gone to charity shops.

Davor mentioned a few pages ago that Dakka is full of GW fans, waiting for the games to become better. And it's taken thinking about that to realise that perhaps I'm not any more, and haven't been for some time..

And with the non-GW games being kicked into touch at the bottom of the front page, Dakka not really doing much to sidle up with the growth of other parts of the industry, actually makes me wonder what I am doing here! And still posting..

Apologies for the self-indulgent brain dump. This has been a useful thread for me to read, this post possibly not so much for other people!

There's a whole world out there, friend. Being a hobbyist is all about enjoying the things you have a passion for. If your passion lies elsewhere you gotta follow it.

Prices still absurdly high for little plastic men, so no, they haven't gotten any better.

If you don't like gw stuff any more don't buy, dont play it don't post about it. Life is too short. I got out of the hobby for 10 years and only came back for the warhammer endtimes. The time away let me realise that I like gw for its combination of fluff, art, miniatures and gameplay. There are plenty of other games that do one of those things better than Gw but none that do them all.

if you don't like complaints about GW I'd stay clear of the internet.

No matter where you go the view of them is the same they have angered millions of former customers world wide with their actions.

They burnt the bridges not us, and they need to do significantly better to rebuild them, so far all they've done is dig the hole for the foundation.

Chikout wrote:
Mantic's best stuff is about on par with gw's worst.

To a certain degree this is an issue depending on each one's tastes but... IMO such an statement merely proves you have a very limited knowledge of Mantic's catalogue. They've come a long way since some of their worst stuff. I'd insist you to check the Warpath thread in N&R and have a look at the latest pictures.

Dreamforge has a very limited and very generic aesthetic. Frostgrave is interesting but also quite generic. Avatars of war stuff looks good but they have major shipping issues.

I'd like to know what makes Dreamforge and Frostrave "generic" and large parts of GW's catalogue the opposite.


Hello, I'm such an unique and distinctive model design.

Once the company comes out with more models for cheaper prices as they once had, and supported more specialist games (Yes, the specialist games can be expensive, but plastic is a must) like Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, etc, as well as LOTR SBG, then I'll think about playing and actually buying models again.

(In case you're curious, yes, I do still buy Black Library. I love the lore.)