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Who's worse, the whiner or the whiner about the whiner?

 Kaiyanwang wrote:


So let me see if I got it right: they relaunched it but they keep using their exploitative tactics, while like other 10 companies produce cheaper and compatible miniatures for fantasy football, and maybe less overdesigned.

Oh this is going to work so well for GW....

GW really changed! Complete new direction [insert here Roundtree meme]!

Actually, it works for me.
The price on the plastic BB minis is actually good and lower than the third party market(pound conversion + shipping vs local buying).

The starter box set got me nearly 2 full teams, a good BB playing set, dead-tree rules and dices.
Since it seems that extra positionals and other teams will be in FW resin, I'll go after third party for the positionals/teams I'm interested in.

I win, kinda

Grimdark wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:


So let me see if I got it right: they relaunched it but they keep using their exploitative tactics, while like other 10 companies produce cheaper and compatible miniatures for fantasy football, and maybe less overdesigned.

Oh this is going to work so well for GW....

GW really changed! Complete new direction [insert here Roundtree meme]!

Actually, it works for me.
The price on the plastic BB minis is actually good and lower than the third party market(pound conversion + shipping vs local buying).

The starter box set got me nearly 2 full teams, a good BB playing set, dead-tree rules and dices.
Since it seems that extra positionals and other teams will be in FW resin, I'll go after third party for the positionals/teams I'm interested in.

I win, kinda

Yeah, but Kaiyanwangs argument was that "Since it seems that extra positionals and other teams will be in FW resin, I'll go after third party for the positionals/teams I'm interested in." is a loss for GW. After all, that's money that's going towards other companies, not GW.

 Mangod wrote:

Grimdark wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:


So let me see if I got it right: they relaunched it but they keep using their exploitative tactics, while like other 10 companies produce cheaper and compatible miniatures for fantasy football, and maybe less overdesigned.

Oh this is going to work so well for GW....

GW really changed! Complete new direction [insert here Roundtree meme]!

Actually, it works for me.
The price on the plastic BB minis is actually good and lower than the third party market(pound conversion + shipping vs local buying).

The starter box set got me nearly 2 full teams, a good BB playing set, dead-tree rules and dices.
Since it seems that extra positionals and other teams will be in FW resin, I'll go after third party for the positionals/teams I'm interested in.

I win, kinda

Yeah, but Kaiyanwangs argument was that "Since it seems that extra positionals and other teams will be in FW resin, I'll go after third party for the positionals/teams I'm interested in." is a loss for GW. After all, that's money that's going towards other companies, not GW.

Yes, that is. Sorry for being unclear.

 Korinov wrote:
Who's worse, the whiner or the whiner about the whiner?

The latter. Because they don't realise the wonderful irony of doing the very thing they're bemoaning.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Yes, that is. Sorry for being unclear.

Oh, it's absolutely their loss.
I don't actually expect GW to fully commit to a project, or do things like planning

Lord Kragan wrote:
I'm sorry, but who's literally going through EVERY SINGLE CHANCE HE HAS to go and bash them even when it doesn't present itself: who goes and says almost non-stop (read: in a great deal of comments and to an almost alarming rate) hack-frauds, "sub-educated" (not on this thread but you've done it in others, and it sticks like a sore thumb) or some variation or thereof? Just who does?

You call me battered wife but the fact that you still follow the game, even though you've stated on MANY that you hate the rules and what they've become, hate the living guts of the dev-team and the company, is a bigger sign of a battered wife than: "heh, has its issue but can be enjoyable if you play with like-minded people. Don't fret over the small stuff."

" YOU have a dismissing attitude toward those who disagree with GW current policy or criticise the design choice, in a thread dedicate to analyse them. "

No, I'm dimissive of someone who's constantly complaining about them, be it on topic or even remotely out of the subject theme. Do I find appalling their choice for one-man stores? Yes. Do I find appalling their pricings? Yes, that's why I buy very sparcely and use count-as quite often.

But do I think it's gone better? Yes. It is perfect? hell no. Do I think it's worth complaining and pulling jabs at them at almost every time I get the chance of? no.

The one who should look at the mirror it's you, it's not just about this thread that makes you a jerk.

I see this very attitude in another thread. Every cosmetic change is considered an improvement. Now people are praising the goodness that will come for CSM from TS and legions.

I predict 1-2 broken gimmicky lists, and a lot of "nothing". My attitude could be overtly bitter, but you completely fail at understanding that the "changes" you point out are meaningless and superficial. If you want to convince yourself GW is changed, good. But a young person could read this forum and be misguided and heck, I am sure I will have this person warned.

Won't somebody please think of the children??

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
. But a young person could read this forum and be misguided and heck, I am sure I will have this person warned.

Thanks for this... Now I have coffee on my keyboard from laughing out loudly... What a hilarious argument.

SKR.HH wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
. But a young person could read this forum and be misguided and heck, I am sure I will have this person warned.

Thanks for this... Now I have coffee on my keyboard from laughing out loudly... What a hilarious argument.

Is not the reason, but is a reason; You discuss in a forum because is public. Is public because other people can read.

Is can perceive an attempt to dismantle my arguments ridiculing this, but is not how logic works, sorry.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Won't somebody please think of the children??

Oh yeah the children... screw those little runts. Okay, Jokes. But regarding bloodbowl. It's not entirely without the bounds of reason that, if anything, there will be more people going to buy extra boxes rather than going to 3rd parties. The effect of brands is strong, specialy when in metas where only GWs are available.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Won't somebody please think of the children??

Oh yeah the children... screw those little runts. Okay, Jokes. But regarding bloodbowl. It's not entirely without the bounds of reason that, if anything, there will be more people going to buy extra boxes rather than going to 3rd parties. The effect of brands is strong, specialy when in metas where only GWs are available.

Except extra boxes don't get you players which are not included in the box.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Won't somebody please think of the children??

Oh yeah the children... screw those little runts. Okay, Jokes. But regarding bloodbowl. It's not entirely without the bounds of reason that, if anything, there will be more people going to buy extra boxes rather than going to 3rd parties. The effect of brands is strong, specialy when in metas where only GWs are available.

Except extra boxes don't get you players which are not included in the box.

My bad, thought it was that there weren't enough players. My bad, then yes that's a mistake or they have another plan for releases, god knows what they are going to do.

 Thairne wrote:

 filbert wrote:
The box sets only appear good value because the prices are so jacked in the first place - it's a false economy and a false saving. If you are happy with that, then more power to you. Several years of falling sales at GW would suggest that a large tranche of people are not, however.

GW have always been expensive for what they are but then again, they used to have the market position and dominance to charge those prices; nowadays, I would argue they do not. I remember when they used to do buy one, get one free offers and the like. That used to be real savings and offers - not bundling some kits together that were already wildly overpriced and then knocking an arbitrary amount off to make it seem like you are getting a huge discount and a great deal - that's just the consumer equivalent of the shell game.

Admittedly I lack the knowledge to compare them to other major manufactures like that Warmahordesthing.
And while I can agree on ridiculous prices for single character models... Does it really matter THAT much to you if that single character costs 27€ instead of 20€?
Looking at the AdMech Battleforce, you get 4 large miniatures, 11 human sized miniatures and 3 medium miniatures. for 130€, that is about 7,20€ per miniature.

Looking up the price on a Warjack, which hovers around 30€ and is the size of a dreadnought...
While abox of infantry is about 45€ compared to GW'S start collecting which gives you the squad, a dread and an HQ...

Sorry, you cannot claim that GW with these sets is more expensive than Warmahordes per model. These boxes offer great value even when compared to competition.
Unless I misjudge the prices and sizes I see on the Warjacks and corresponding models.

Why are you comparing to Warmahordes? If there's any brand out there that gives you less value for money than GW (except in the narrow niche of game advantage), it's Warmachine.

For me, most of GW's minis are just too expensive (or costly per model) to buy no matter how much I love the sculpts. The big box sets are a real value for me, though, because I love using all the extra bits for conversions and kitbashes. If GW lowered their prices, most of their minis would slide from being poor deals into must haves for me. It works the same way for Black Library, too. As mass market paperbacks, their books were almost always worth buying. Trade omnibuses were great value. Trade novellas, hardcovers, and limited editions? Not worth it, and killed my interest in the entire line of novels for years.

It's like GW just has to find the line at which their prices go from "I can afford this, although it's a lot" to "Now I'm insulted".

hobojebus wrote:
Rubric marines are no more special than any other marines they should not be so much more expensive.

Rubric marines are chaos terminators that nobody is going to buy but hardcore SMC fans, i.e. at most 1/10th of a vanilla marine equivalent kit.
I consider that more special.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ventus wrote:
I'm not saying that there aren't any improvements at all. I'm saying ref 40K - as a game - that GW hasn't made what IMO are significant improvements - and the little improvements can also be occurring around areas where things get worse.

Yes, because the FAQ is not the most complete GW has ever released, and because that FAQ doesn't solve a hundred rules points... if you don't think that's significant, then maybe your threshold is a little too high for an "improvement".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vankraken wrote:
Very well put and it is also how I feel about the hobby currently with the struggles to play the bottom tier armies like Orks and Grey Knights

Bottom tier.. you ain't seen bottom tier my friend.

Go try Dark Eldar for a spin, your Orks and GK will look unbelievably strong then.

But yes, some improved balance would be nice, although I would like to see Dark Eldar fixed first, then probably CSM, then Orks and maybe lastly GK, who are a good deal better than the other three.

One army which really needs a boost is Codex:Flyrant, it's really sad as it is now.

 Just Tony wrote:
Then you would be the kind of person the Sideshow Collectibles statues were made for, or the Forgeworld Busts of old. The rest of us are immersed in the game. If that wasn't the case, we'd all be sitting around with nothing but collected art books and Black Library novels.

the Sideshow Collectible Marines didn't appeal to me, because they were pre-painted...
the Forge World busts, and their large scale models, did...
i enjoyed painting the Skaven Stormvermin bust, and the Space Wolve Termie bust, a lot...
the Beastmen Shaman bust, and the Commissar bust are on my to-do list...

i am immersed in the worlds that GW has created...
i buy each Codex, so that i know how to build and equip my minis, ensuring that my customers get useful painted minis when they buy my work...
i buy the collected art books and BL novels, because they inspire and inform those paint jobs...

i don't know why everyone thinks that i don't care about the game, simply because i'm not bothered by the prices...
the fact that the models are 3-D representations of the art and fiction, that people can take for a spin on the table top, is a huge part of the appeal of GW's miniatures, for me...
Battle Reports have always been one of my favorite parts of a White Dwarf issue, all the way back to the very first ones...
army building is a great past time, that is a lot of fun to do while i am busy painting other people's stuff...
i love the big display boards at Warhammer World, with armies clashing...
actually building and painting a badass custom army is the biggest daydream, that keeps me going when i am two years into a booked schedule, and unable to paint the new shiny that i've bought...
i would love to be able to stop taking commissions, and dedicate my time to building a Salamanders army centered around Vulkan He'stan, or a Tau Farsight army full of the awesome new Suits, or a Blood Axe Orc army all kitted out in looted Imperial gear...
without the minis, and imagining them in action on the table top, the books would not be half as fun...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
He's of the "don't care, got mine" hobbyist variety. If price doesn't matter to him, then why would it matter to anyone?

that is not true at all, and i never said that...

i do care, very much, about the community, which is why i donate paints and models to people in the hobby that are on disability, and unable to afford the prices...
it is also why i donate painted models to charity auctions like the NOVA Open (raising money for Doctors Without Borders and the Wounded Warrior Project), and the Clash for a Cure (raising money for the American Cancer Society), every year...

i understand why price matters to others, i just don't share their anger about it...
i've said many times, i would love lower prices, but i am not going to boycott GW because a segment of the community are outraged by prices...
i am going to continue to buy the products that i think are worth the money, and pass on the ones i don't (i'm looking at you Finecast, ya bastard)...
i support the work of my friends, and i want to see them continue having creative jobs that they love, and provide for their families...

Herzlos wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but he's no interest in gaming itself and seems to have ample money for it.
I'm not convinced that there are many pure painters who are GW customers - most of them at least seem to work around the idea of a playable army even if it's never fielded.

see above for the bit about armies and gaming, but understand this:
every dollar that i spend on miniatures is earned through hard work painting minis on commission...
i am not some independently wealthy prat, sitting in my tower, laughing at the peons below...
i work hard, 6 hours a day, 7 days a week, to keep up with demand for my paint jobs...
call it retail therapy, or an addiction, or whatever, but minis (and their associated books) are the only thing that i collect, and they make me happy...

as for "pure painters", there are plenty of them who are inspired by GW minis and the worlds they represent...
i see them online every day, and just like me, they also paint other companies' models, too
a love of painting miniatures is enough, but you seem to think that i am saying that the games don't matter, or that i think that "pure painters" float GW with their purchases alone, which i have never said...

cheers
jah

I stand corrected, sorry. That was a good post to read.

A good post Jah.

Does it make you a GW customer though?

My local model shop buys models from GW to sell on.
You buy models from GW to paint and sell on.

My local model shop has had to buy extras like a paint rack to sell on his GW products.
You buy books/codices from GW to aid your painting to help sell models on.

Your view above puts you more as a retailer than a basic customer. You should care about prices. The higher they go, the less customers you'll have in the long run.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
A good post Jan.

Does it make you a GW customer though?

My local model shop buys models from GW to sell on.
You buy models from GW to paint and sell on.

My local model shop has had to buy extras like a paint rack to sell on his GW products.
You buy books/codices from GW to aid your painting to help sell models on.

Your view above puts you more as a retailer than a basic customer. You should care about prices. The higher they go, the less customers you'll have in the long run.

I can see where you're coming from all except the last sentence.

For a high end commission painter the cost of the model isn't huge compared to the cost of the hours they spend on the model, so it's not a huge difference in the final price the customer pays.

It'd only be a big effect if you're trying to pump out models for a couple of dollars each (so you're only spending ~30 minutes on each one).

A mate at the local hobby shop was showing me a 1/24 aircraft he made and sold, from memory it was about $150 out of the box and he added another $50 worth of parts. But he put probably 100+ hours in to it and sold it for a couple of thousand dollars in the end. Adding on the cost of the kit doesn't make a huge difference at that point.

But yeah, I can see where you're coming from jah.... but I think in these discussions people end up arguing with you because you argue from a narrow viewpoint, and while I know there's others like you, I don't think it's represents GW's bread and butter.

I think GW's bread and butter is people who have been sold on the idea of playing a game. They might not ever get to the point of playing a game, but that's what they were sold on. In order to play that game they're not going to need 1 box of nice looking but expensive Nobz, they're going to need 10 boxes of Orks AND 2 boxes of Nobz AND 4 boxes of Warbikers AND 3 Mek Gunz and all of a sudden things don't look quite so cheap anymore.

I'd say a large chunk of the population also finds painting a chore rather than a joy. Personally I only find it a joy when painting 1 or 2 models, by the 5th dude I'm cursing the excessive detail of GW figures rather than praising it, especially since most of my favourite models are on the simple side rather than the excessive detail side.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
A good post Jan.

Does it make you a GW customer though?

My local model shop buys models from GW to sell on.
You buy models from GW to paint and sell on.

My local model shop has had to buy extras like a paint rack to sell on his GW products.
You buy books/codices from GW to aid your painting to help sell models on.

Your view above puts you more as a retailer than a basic customer. You should care about prices. The higher they go, the less customers you'll have in the long run.

sure i'm a customer...
although i do give my clients the model for free if i already own it, to put a balm on the high cost of hiring me to paint, 95% of the minis that i buy are for myself...
even if i don't get a chance to paint them anytime soon, at least i grabbed them before they went OOP...
with companies changing materials (like GW did with Finecast and PP did with PVC), or going out of business (like Rackham and Ilyad), or models being limited edition, it is smart to get 'em while they are hot...

yes, the books inform the work i do on commissions, and i do have a vested interest in the health of mini wargaming in general...
the problem is people keep jumping to conclusions, saying that i don't "care" about prices...
my exact words are very specific, that i personally "don't have a problem" with the prices, not "i don't care"...
as i've said many times, i would love lower prices, just like anyone else...

i've heard "the higher they go [prices], the less customers you will have in the long run.", but the market doesn't show that to be true...
it shows the opposite, in fact...
more people seem to be commissioning studios each year, and i have been booked solid for 12 years straight...
i have trouble keeping up with demand...
however, if GW ever does lose its hold on the lion's share of commissions booked, the market will shift, and i'll get to paint other manufacturer's minis, like Warmachine or Infinity...
that would not be a bad thing

@Skink: yeah, i get that...
i've never said that my money is GW's bread and butter, only that they are my favorite, and i love to collect their models...
i never said that the minis are cheap, either...
the minis are expensive, without a doubt, but that doesn't put me off, yet...
they may do, one day...

i just spent the last two years painting an Ultramarines army for a client...
i got him the best online discount on the models, and gave him a break on rates, but it still amounts to thousands of dollars spent on painting alone...
my latest commission is to do all of the Primarchs...
that is the whole of my time booked for next year, and my cost of living covered for 2017...
so, while my viewpoint may be narrow, it is not unreasonable or unfounded...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

i've heard "the higher they go [prices], the less customers you will have in the long run.", but the market doesn't show that to be true...
it shows the opposite, in fact...

You sure about that? Inflating prices is the best way of keeping customers or so I've heard

GW prices are simple: they charge what they can. When people play armchair CEO and claim GW could make more by selling more units for a lower price, they are making giant assumptions, including that GW management is, essentially, incompetent. My only concern is attracting new gamers and barrier to entry, but I don't have the data or market research to really second guess GW.

The bitterest price complaints also come from long time hobbiests, who claim that they would buy more if the new stuff were cheaper. That may be true, but I also suspect that most long time gamers have boxes of unbuilt stuff along with painted armies. Gamers like that don't get a lot of value from yet another tank.

The prices suck, but they're obviously at where the market can bear.

Sorry but GW is set up for mass production doing smaller runs is less economical than large runs that's how manufacturing works.

By going for boutique sales they are failing to use all that equipment they invested in correctly.

GW could easily out produce mantic in terms of cheap mass infantry if they wanted.

GW's customer base is shrinking they've said as much themselves in the financial reports, high prices are the cause so going cheaper while painful in the short term could reverse things.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:

i've heard "the higher they go [prices], the less customers you will have in the long run.", but the market doesn't show that to be true...
it shows the opposite, in fact...

You sure about that? Inflating prices is the best way of keeping customers or so I've heard

GW make roughly the same revenue as they ever had with higher prices. That means they are shifting less product.

Does that also mean they have a smaller base of customers? We really don't know. Personally I think GW's practices has pushed them to having a smaller pool of customers who are whales... people who spend large amounts of money. The problem with only catering to whales is you have a less diverse customer base which is riskier, it also means you start to lose critical mass (where you have so many players new hobbyists automatically start playing your game over other games simply because it's what most people are already playing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:
GW prices are simple: they charge what they can. When people play armchair CEO and claim GW could make more by selling more units for a lower price, they are making giant assumptions, including that GW management is, essentially, incompetent. My only concern is attracting new gamers and barrier to entry, but I don't have the data or market research to really second guess GW.

It's complicated, and no I don't trust GW are doing the best thing. Whether I'd call them incompetent? Well, they've done stuff that certainly comes across as incompetent at times (like killing WHFB just before a Warhammer branded video game from a hugely popular video game series is released) and failing at cross-platform promotion. Their whole handling of the death of WHFB was terrible and when they did good things in that time it mostly seemed like reactionary, as if they didn't realise how people would respond to what they were doing.

I am impressed they're releasing the Space Hulk board game again to coincide with the video game Space Hulk that's coming out, but it's sad that I'm impressed by them doing something that's blatantly obvious. I also think they might be a bit disappointed because the Space Hulk video game doesn't look like it's going to be a AAA hit like Total War and I also think the number of people who would buy Space Hulk on impulse is reducing.

GW themselves have more information than us, but they still don't have the full picture and they are only human and susceptible to misinterpreting it and/or having confirmation bias.

The bitterest price complaints also come from long time hobbiests, who claim that they would buy more if the new stuff were cheaper.

Lets keep things in context, we're on a wargaming forum, the dakka community is dominated by long time hobbyists.

The people you should be concerned about making price complaints is little Jimmy buying the product with his pocket money; the parents of little Timmy who see it's cheaper to buy him another video game instead; the people walking in to an FLGS on a whim and seeing other games as better value; the people who put their army up on ebay after deciding it's too expensive to continue; the old vets who still like your products but have ceased buying them; and the people who bought a starter set then added up the cost of a full army and quit instead.

Most of those demographics don't post on forums so you aren't going to hear their complaints, you're just going to lose their money. Ever watch Kitchen Nightmares? Don't you find it hilarious when store owners think their food is awesome because they don't hear complaints? It's because customers tend not to complain, they just don't come back, and they tell their friends not to go there either.

The people who are old vets but still buy a bit here and there aren't where you're haemorrhaging revenue.

If the prices were what the market could bear, as some people suggest.

Why has GW sales volumes dropped every year for over a decade now?(Appx 1/3 of what they were in the early 2000s.)

And GW plc ONLY reaction to falling sales volumes has been increasing retail prices.(Which is fine for a short term solution while you correct you business model according to detailed and professional market research.)

TK himself pointed this out in GWs 2007 financial report.'...we have grown fat a lazy on the back of easy success..'And 9 years later they are still doing exactly the same thing as they were before this report came out...

@jah-joshua
I know you are a talented painter.And you put lots of hours in a week to earn your money.

But in the real world, 6 hours is just the morning shift.(Half a days work in many jobs.)

And painting minatures is not 'hard work' when compared to deep sea fishing, construction,mining, foundry, front line emergency services, or many other jobs.
The sort of jobs where just getting home in once piece at the end of a 12 hour shift is a good day.

The thing I would think that would be hard with commission painting is...

1) Staying focused on a project which is earning you barely any money per hour.

2) Time management.

3) Physical problems. I could deal with 8 hour painting sessions when I was a kid, these days my body won't let me paint for 8 hours a day for multiple days on end.

Lanrak wrote:
If the prices were what the market could bear, as some people suggest.

Why has GW sales volumes dropped every year for over a decade now?(Appx 1/3 of what they were in the early 2000s.)

And GW plc ONLY reaction to falling sales volumes has been increasing retail prices.(Which is fine for a short term solution while you correct you business model according to detailed and professional market research.)

TK himself pointed this out in GWs 2007 financial report.'...we have grown fat a lazy on the back of easy success..'And 9 years later they are still doing exactly the same thing as they were before this report came out...

@jah-joshua
I know you are a talented painter.And you put lots of hours in a week to earn your money.

But in the real world, 6 hours is just the morning shift.(Half a days work in many jobs.)

And painting minatures is not 'hard work' when compared to deep sea fishing, construction,mining, foundry, front line emergency services, or many other jobs.
The sort of jobs where just getting home in once piece at the end of a 12 hour shift is a good day.

i'm not saying that i agree with the direction that GW have taken over the last decade...
i was sad to see the demise of the Battle Bunkers (where i could buy Forge World right in the shop), Specialist Games, and the Golden Demon...
luckily, two of those things are making a comeback...
in the context of the actual topic of this thread, that is a big plus, for me...

the question is, "So, can we agree that GW has gotten better in the last year?"...
going by the 20 pages of this thread, it looks like opinion on that is split...
for me, as a customer, the last year has been a boon...
Betrayal at Calth (MkIV in plastic), DW: Overkill (an amazing set of models), the Tech-priest Dominus ( a great Jes Goodwin sculpt), Silver Tower (some of the best AoS minis yet, in my opinion), the AoS Orc Megaboss (one of my favorite Orcs ever), the Tau Commander & Ethereal box (way better than Finecast), Death Masque (plastic Eldrad, the introduction of Brother Artemis in 28mm, and beautiful MkVIII Deathwatch Marines), Genestealer Cult plastics (Darren Latham's Neophytes will be the source of awesome Inq. 28 conversions for years to come), Watch Commander (love this stoic bastard), and now the Burning of Prospero (everything in this box is mind-blowing)...
those are all of the GW minis that i have bought this year, iirc...
then there is the return of the new White Dwarf, the great videos that Warhammer TV are doing, the return of competition in play and painting, engagement with the community on Facebook and Twitter, and an increase in previews...
these may not be improvements to some, all shot down by, "...but the prices!!!"...
fair enough, but they've earned my money with quality product...

c'mon, Lanrak, did i put a "woe is me" in there somewhere when mentioning that i put in a 42 hour work week at the painting table???
i'm just saying that i'm dedicated to my work, and that i don't get time to paint my own minis often...
i grew up working construction in California and Alaska, working on sport fishing boats here in Redondo Beach, and tried my hand at commercial fishing in Alaska, as well a gold mining with my father when he was still alive...
i spent 15 years travelling the globe, funding my way with street corner hustles and smuggling...
i know what it is like to come home with hands curled into claws, or daily risking death or prison, and i had enough of that noise...
the last three years have seen me only risking my life surfing big waves, but i am still addicted to staring Death in the face, and living to tell the tale
i am thankful that i can sit back a while, and make a living with painting skills, rather than rolling the dice on the street, or coming home from work unable to paint...

i have a lot of respect for soldiers, firefighters, paramedics, and those out there doing risky jobs...
i'm not comparing mini painting work to any of those things, that would be ridiculous...
dedication is important to me, though...
when i saw my first White Dwarf in '85, and my first Golden Demon book in '90, i new that i wanted to be one of the best painters in the world...
i dedicate myself to that goal every day, even though i still have a long way to go...
i try to make every mini better than the last, in some way...
i give my best each day, and give thanks that i can make my money painting tiny plastic guns, rather than carrying a real one, these days...

cheers
jah

hobojebus wrote:Sorry but GW is set up for mass production doing smaller runs is less economical than large runs that's how manufacturing works.

By going for boutique sales they are failing to use all that equipment they invested in correctly.

GW could easily out produce mantic in terms of cheap mass infantry if they wanted.

GW's customer base is shrinking they've said as much themselves in the financial reports, high prices are the cause so going cheaper while painful in the short term could reverse things

Well, you assume that high prices are the reason for shrinking customer base. It's also possible that serious competition for large scale hobby games and a frankly declining rules quality (particularly in relation to the competition) also could cause a loss in market share. High prices aren't helping, but we're just basing the idea that it's the culprit on common sense.

And yes, small runs are less economical than larger ones, but dropping prices only leads to increases sales if the good are elastic. As high end leisure goods, it's reasonable to think that GW products would be elastic, but just because you can sell more for cheaper doesn't mean that maximizes your profit.

Selling 100 widgets for $1, or 50 Widgets for $2, results in the same revenue, but it only results in the same profit if the $1 widgets cost a lot less to make! Say making 50 widgets has a unit cost of $1 a piece, so selling 50 for $2 a piece makes a $50 profit. to make the same profit at $1 each, you'd need to get the cost per unit down to $0.50 each.

This is pretty basic business/accounting here. When I say that I doubt GW is incompetent, I don't mean they don't make bad decisions. I mean they probably understand where the price point is best from a supply/demand standpoint, including the reduced unit cost for increased production.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:[It's complicated, and no I don't trust GW are doing the best thing. Whether I'd call them incompetent? Well, they've done stuff that certainly comes across as incompetent at times (like killing WHFB just before a Warhammer branded video game from a hugely popular video game series is released) and failing at cross-platform promotion. Their whole handling of the death of WHFB was terrible and when they did good things in that time it mostly seemed like reactionary, as if they didn't realise how people would respond to what they were doing.

I am impressed they're releasing the Space Hulk board game again to coincide with the video game Space Hulk that's coming out, but it's sad that I'm impressed by them doing something that's blatantly obvious. I also think they might be a bit disappointed because the Space Hulk video game doesn't look like it's going to be a AAA hit like Total War and I also think the number of people who would buy Space Hulk on impulse is reducing.

Yeah, I think GW has made poor strategic choices, but there's a big difference between incompetence and making a bad call. Buying a building in a neighborhood you thought was up and coming, that instead went to seed is a bad call. Buying a building without checking if there were easements that limit how you can use it is incompetent.

GW themselves have more information than us, but they still don't have the full picture and they are only human and susceptible to misinterpreting it and/or having confirmation bias.

And we have even less information. GW isn't just a company, it's publicly traded. Someone, somewhere, is actually making sure that the management isn't asleep at the switch (at least in US corporate law). I also think that GW could do more to grow the hobby, but the thought of a multi-national company not understanding something as simple as setting a price point is unlikely, although certainly possible. I also have to look at the fact that I'm always a bit skeptical of suggestions of how to better run a business that directly benefit the person giving the advice.

]Lets keep things in context, we're on a wargaming forum, the dakka community is dominated by long time hobbyists.

The people you should be concerned about making price complaints is little Jimmy buying the product with his pocket money; the parents of little Timmy who see it's cheaper to buy him another video game instead; the people walking in to an FLGS on a whim and seeing other games as better value; the people who put their army up on ebay after deciding it's too expensive to continue; the old vets who still like your products but have ceased buying them; and the people who bought a starter set then added up the cost of a full army and quit instead.

Most of those demographics don't post on forums so you aren't going to hear their complaints, you're just going to lose their money. Ever watch Kitchen Nightmares? Don't you find it hilarious when store owners think their food is awesome because they don't hear complaints? It's because customers tend not to complain, they just don't come back, and they tell their friends not to go there either.

The people who are old vets but still buy a bit here and there aren't where you're haemorrhaging revenue.

Yeah, and I noted that my biggest concern with the GW pricing model is that of barrier to entry for new gamers.

PP does pretty well recruiting new gamers, and the cost of full participation is roughly similar. I think you can successfully argue that PP does a good job of limiting barrier of entry to playing meaningful games, with $40 faction specific starters, but when you compare the cost of fielding a tournament PP army against a GW army, they aren't that far off.

I just don't think prices are the whole, or even main, reason for declining sales. I think the games just aren't great, and people are playing better games.

 Korinov wrote:
Who's worse, the whiner or the whiner about the whiner?

I'm not going to go into much deeper, since I don't really want to make that much rucus-I've made enough-, but considering I got called a shill and battered wife (twice the same day), my outburst wasn't directed at him whining. Just saying.

 jah-joshua wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
A good post Jan.

Does it make you a GW customer though?

My local model shop buys models from GW to sell on.
You buy models from GW to paint and sell on.

My local model shop has had to buy extras like a paint rack to sell on his GW products.
You buy books/codices from GW to aid your painting to help sell models on.

Your view above puts you more as a retailer than a basic customer. You should care about prices. The higher they go, the less customers you'll have in the long run.

sure i'm a customer...
although i do give my clients the model for free if i already own it, to put a balm on the high cost of hiring me to paint, 95% of the minis that i buy are for myself...
even if i don't get a chance to paint them anytime soon, at least i grabbed them before they went OOP...
with companies changing materials (like GW did with Finecast and PP did with PVC), or going out of business (like Rackham and Ilyad), or models being limited edition, it is smart to get 'em while they are hot...

yes, the books inform the work i do on commissions, and i do have a vested interest in the health of mini wargaming in general...
the problem is people keep jumping to conclusions, saying that i don't "care" about prices...
my exact words are very specific, that i personally "don't have a problem" with the prices, not "i don't care"...
as i've said many times, i would love lower prices, just like anyone else...

The thing is though, you're a painter, not a gamer. At least from what you've said in the past. And for a painter, the models matter. And to be fair, GW's models have never really been lacking. Some people may not like their aesthetic direction, but the quality and what they manage to do with plastic has always been top notch. For a painter, getting better than what is already pretty great will always be seen as a massive improvment.

For a gamer, people are dealing with 40k that is the biggest mess it's been since, well, Rogue Trader. And not in a fun, nostalgic way. Balance that decides games when people decide what armies they want to play. And on top of that, prices that are utterly absurd for the amount of models you need for a game.

Buying one box of Gaunts, for a painter, gives you some fun models and options to paint. For a gamer, that one box represents a minimal investment into a squad, and minuscule investment into an army. An army which is very likely to lose 90% of the time simply due to being the red headed step child of the studio.

That's what pushes people away from Games Workshop. Models, they're pretty great, and always were. Sure, there's better out there if you start going into boutique metals and resins, but for assembly line mass produced HIPS they're pretty great. But that's not going to keep gamers playing their games.