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Many of these discussions are motivated by a general dissatisfaction of the "status quo".
It is also interesting to point out what may be done right we should see more of.
Reward good behavior and punish / ignore the bad?
Whining is a constant in life, it is performed by those who believe they are powerless to achieve change and are unhappy.
You vote with your dollars so whining is not the last effort available and it really costs the audience little and I find funny that people get "tired" of it... skim and move-on.

GW really has gotten better in the last year for producing bundles that actually have a monetary deal.
The mini-games are a fantastic way to get a starter-army going and yet have a complete game.
They have opened up more avenues of customer engagement and appear to be using media better.
The White Dwarf has become a little more wider in scope than it had been before.
Good baby steps.

I have always liked the models.
Love the fluff and it keeps getting better.

The day I become a "white knight" is if they actually get serous about cleaning up the rules.
They are a frightful mess in need of a flow-chart and a pruning down to the stump.
There was a time I would have been afraid of an Age of Sigmar treatment, not so much now.

Yeah, I'm not exactly bullish on GW, but they're showing signs of life, and a few areas seem to be getting better.

Really though, the rules are simply byzantine. It's like 2nd edition AD&D, with a half dozen books required to play many common armies. The amount of unnecessary rolling, rules that ignore other rules, and patched nonsense to avoid using basic modifiers makes it a much more difficult game to play than if they just went to a simple modifier system.

 Polonius wrote:
Yeah, I'm not exactly bullish on GW, but they're showing signs of life, and a few areas seem to be getting better.

Really though, the rules are simply byzantine. It's like 2nd edition AD&D, with a half dozen books required to play many common armies. The amount of unnecessary rolling, rules that ignore other rules, and patched nonsense to avoid using basic modifiers makes it a much more difficult game to play than if they just went to a simple modifier system.

I can't wait until they introduce THAC0 in 8th

One other thing I think is good, is that GW is sending out review copies of their books now. They are mostly sending them to enthusiast blogs so the reviews will tend to skew positive, but you can look at many of the thousand sons rules, decide what minis ( if any) you want to buy and make a much more inforder purchasing decision.
I really hope they are using all the feedback ( good and bad) from this to fine tune 8th edition.
If they really do adopt the living rule book approach that Aos is using and do yearly point adjustments, it will solve a lot of people's issues.
I think the improvements of late are undeniable but 8th edition is the real litmus test. It could usher in the next golden age of GW, or it could kill everyone's hopes that 40k will ever be a genuinely good game again.

 Polonius wrote:
I just don't think prices are the whole, or even main, reason for declining sales. I think the games just aren't great, and people are playing better games.

Yeah I can agree with that.

I do think pricing is a problem, but how big of a problem is really hard to say. Even though GW has more data than us, I don't trust they are doing the best thing. History is littered with the corpses of publicly traded companies that are dead or dying, so that's hardly reason enough for me to think they know what they're doing.

Personally, pricing is only a tangential issue. If they lowered their prices they'd get me to buy more, but not a lot more, mostly enough to finish off the armies sitting in my drawers that never get played with anyway.

I think pricing is a big part of what killed WHFB in 8th, the biggest? Maybe, maybe not. Every edition change you're going to get people who don't like it and you just hope the new blood influx and the excitement of existing players buying more compensates for the people who don't like it. But I think pricing was a big reason there was no one impulse buying to compensate for the people leaving, when you have to buy 3 or 4 boxes of Orcs just to make a single bloody regiment, things get a little bit stupid.

In the context of 40k and even AoS? I think pricing is less of a problem, but it's still a problem IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:
Buying one box of Gaunts, for a painter, gives you some fun models and options to paint. For a gamer, that one box represents a minimal investment into a squad, and minuscule investment into an army. An army which is very likely to lose 90% of the time simply due to being the red headed step child of the studio.

Yeah this is what I was trying to get across earlier.

Where the pricing hits home is models like Cadians, Orks or Gaunts, $29 for 10 to 12 of the bastards and you might have to buy 5+ boxes of them and really you can't tell me they look better than anything Perry offers for a fraction of the price. Or Mek Gunz, a nice looking model but $46 for 27 to 39 points worth of models depending on how you equip them.

I don't have a huge problem with the likes of Krom Dragongaze being $30 (though I still think he could be cheaper). But the bigger problem is they price every model like a boutique model, even the ones that might look average and/or are going to be speed painted in bulk by the majority of customers.

Let's just all accept that GW will never be what we truly want. The prices will always be a tad outrageous(Which is why you don't buy from GW, but third parties), the game will always be somewhat convoluted, but we buy and play for a reason.
We love what they've made.
The models are phenomenal these days, the universes GW have created are in-depth and exceptionally well-done. And, despite how thick the rules are with cheese, the game is still enjoyable because of how loose you can make it. You never need all the rules to play.

 JustaerinAtTheWall wrote:
Let's just all accept that GW will never be what we truly want. The prices will always be a tad outrageous(Which is why you don't buy from GW, but third parties), the game will always be somewhat convoluted, but we buy and play for a reason.
We love what they've made.
The models are phenomenal these days, the universes GW have created are in-depth and exceptionally well-done. And, despite how thick the rules are with cheese, the game is still enjoyable because of how loose you can make it. You never need all the rules to play.

Look, here speaks the guy that is painting tens of Tempestus Scions currently (all from Ebay) but this is not always true. Since 5th edition, they are losing ground in the fluff department and minis concept.

5th started with wolfy wolfity, now the new Fenris story with is mediocre and contrived.

The aesthetic of the models too can be not for everybody. Myself, I find Skitarii and Genestealer cult very good (excellent, actually) and respectful of the old blanchian art, but new stuff like Archaon or Magnus is for me big, dumb, very poligonal and action-figurey.

And there is a point in which people will be tired of your rules and drop the game en-masse. Happened in 8th WHFB, can happen with 40K. Keep repeating ourselves that GW quality is the bestest evar does not bring to anything good, IMHO.

We're not buying or painting as much anymore, which only seems to be continuing.

As long as the prices remain gak and the rules are worse than gak, any small things like Star Collecting boxes and re-releasing Space Hulk are just ephemeral. The core problems with GW haven't shifted, with the exception of their interactions with their community which are starting to move from an adversarial/necessary evil style to a "Holy gak this Internet fad isn't going away, so let's use it somehow!".

Here's the thing right, I want to play 40K. I long to play 40K. I haven't played it in a couple of years (played plenty of the RPGs and their board games though - Silver Tower is great, not Old Quest great, but still great) but I just can't as long as their rules remain utter dog gak. I mean, take the most recent book, where the Thousand Sons are getting the due after so many years in the wilderness (even in the 3.5 days, when Chaos was actually a proper army, the 1KSons were the red-headed step children of the Legion armies). And what do we have?

A table you roll on, where one of the results is to roll for every unit on the table, where on a certain result you roll a random number of hits on that unit, and then roll to wound with those that hit, and then the opponent makes saves, and then Soulblaze kicks in. That's 6 layers of dice rolling that could potentially affect every single unit on the table. And to think that I took supreme issue when they made it so every blast marker had to be scattered, 'cause it was just a waste of time and more dice rolling. Boy if only I'd knew the dark, pointless, time consuming depths 40K'd sink to by the end of 7th Ed.

I remember the end of 3rd Ed, where every army had a Codex, sometimes a "supplement" book that went with that main Codex (Blood Angels, Craftworld Eldar, etc.), several FAQs, some Chapter Approved articles, and a few other things here and there. It's 10x worse now, and the game is such an unwieldy mess that I just cannot stand it, which is so unbelievably painful in a period where they have released armies that have wanted for 20-something years (Ad Mech, Deathwatch, Genestealer Cults and the soon-to-return Traitor Legions, a thing of such wonder that it made me change my avatar even though I know the rules will continue to be dog gak).

And then they have the hide to make 1KSons Terminators the single most expensive Terminator kit outside of the Cataphractii kit. I mean what the feth are they thinking?

Okay... We're certainly start to run in circles...

SKR.HH wrote:
Okay... We're certainly start to run in circles...

You mean the thread or GW?

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

SKR.HH wrote:
Okay... We're certainly start to run in circles...

You mean the thread or GW?

This thread.

SKR.HH wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

SKR.HH wrote:
Okay... We're certainly start to run in circles...

You mean the thread or GW?

This thread.

Well I suppose that as long as people will repeat the Rountree meme, people will answer saying that the changes are purely cosmetic.

Also: look at H.B.M.C.'s post. You can see the "change" of GW. More expensive books, that apparently give the fans finally what they want (part of the Rountree meme) but with clunky, abysmal rules.
Deal with GW is like dealing with a psychopath. He will answer yes and tell you all the things that he thinks you want to hear, but there is no true depth. There is no depth because he/she has no way to connect and to understand how an actual human being works and what are the needs of a person. Any sloppy or brutal behaviour will be justified by the people still under the psycho's charm.

So H.B.M.C. writing that stuff is not "running in circle" is bringing more evidence, and we have to bring more until people will stop to support this absurd stance that "things changed with Rountree".

Is a meme. Is better than this one:


Is newer and funnier, but is still a meme.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

SKR.HH wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

SKR.HH wrote:
Okay... We're certainly start to run in circles...

You mean the thread or GW?

This thread.

Well I suppose that as long as people will repeat the Rountree meme, people will answer saying that the changes are purely cosmetic.

Also: look at H.B.M.C.'s post. You can see the "change" of GW. More expensive books, that apparently give the fans finally what they want (part of the Rountree meme) but with clunky, abysmal rules.
Deal with GW is like dealing with a psychopath. He will answer yes and tell you all the things that he thinks you want to hear, but there is no true depth. There is no depth because he/she has no way to connect and to understand how an actual human being works and what are the needs of a person. Any sloppy or brutal behaviour will be justified by the people still under the psycho's charm.

So H.B.M.C. writing that stuff is not "running in circle" is bringing more evidence, and we have to bring more until people will stop to support this absurd stance that "things changed with Rountree".

Is a meme. Is better than this one:

Spoiler:

Is newer and funnier, but is still a meme.

Well, for the last time from my side:

Yes, they are expensive. But it seems to me that their pricing (outside AUS) has been stagnating.
Yes, the rules are bloated. No, I don't think that anything below a new edition will resolve this eventually (--> AoS showed how this could be done --> Move the rules to unit cards).

No, I don't think that the above reasons undermine my impression of GW getting better because:
- Return of specialist games
- Return/Introduction of armies highly anticipated
- Hugely discounted bundles/ Start Collecting Boxes
- Warhammer TV / Warhammer Live
...

You have a different priority (which is fine)... I and obviously other see it differently...

Do you really think either of us will change their opinion here?

Therefore: we're running in circles.

£30 for a unit of marines isn't price stagnation.

SKR.HH wrote:

- Warhammer TV / Warhammer Live

This strikes me as particularly surprising. We should be grateful because.... they changed advertisement style?

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

SKR.HH wrote:

- Warhammer TV / Warhammer Live

This strikes me as particularly surprising. We should be grateful because.... they changed advertisement style?

If this includes daily painting tips and tutorials. And have you actually watched one of their streams last weekend? While quality was not the best it was quite entertaining to watch...

Please point me to another model manufacturer who offers something similar...?

SKR.HH wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

SKR.HH wrote:

- Warhammer TV / Warhammer Live

This strikes me as particularly surprising. We should be grateful because.... they changed advertisement style?

If this includes daily painting tips and tutorials. And have you actually watched one of their streams last weekend? While quality was not the best it was quite entertaining to watch...

Please point me to another model manufacturer who offers something similar...?

Painting tutorial are ok, but that's about it. And still, one would want to play with those models. As you said, priorities.

Much vitriol in this thread comes from the simple fact that some consider the rules and prices to be the end all.
Noone can argue against the simple fact that the rules plain suck tyranid balls, because they do.
Creating a new ruleset takes time, as long as you don't want it to be 6th/7th level of copy&paste.

Rules are bad. Fact.

Still GW improved vastly on customer support, customer interaction, additional services, additional product etc.

That still qualifies as "better".
You CAN NOT deny they have improved.
That improvement didn't reach the core game mechanics yet.

You can drum on that fact like a gorilla with rabbies on bongos, still does not change the fact that we now have a GW that is as open as not seen this decade and possibly the last (not around for that long). Both sides are right.
Yet one side keeps repeating that GW did not improve at all and this is what rattles the other side.

 Thairne wrote:
Much vitriol in this thread comes from the simple fact that some consider the rules and prices to be the end all.
Noone can argue against the simple fact that the rules plain suck tyranid balls, because they do.
Creating a new ruleset takes time, as long as you don't want it to be 6th/7th level of copy&paste.

Rules are bad. Fact.

Still GW improved vastly on customer support, customer interaction, additional services, additional product etc.

That still qualifies as "better".
You CAN NOT deny they have improved.
That improvement didn't reach the core game mechanics yet.

You can drum on that fact like a gorilla with rabbies on bongos, still does not change the fact that we now have a GW that is as open as not seen this decade and possibly the last (not around for that long). Both sides are right.
Yet one side keeps repeating that GW did not improve at all and this is what rattles the other side.

This is like ask someone to train the dog to do not s**t on the carpet, and then, after a month, see that the dog still s**ts on the carpet, but is able to do all sort of tricks and games with a ball.
I want a clean carpet THEN we can talk.

Demand a clean carpet is not vitriol.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And then they have the hide to make 1KSons Terminators the single most expensive Terminator kit outside of the Cataphractii kit. I mean what the feth are they thinking?

They're £35, the same as the other new Terminator kits - Blood Angels and Deathwing (but the Cataphractii are a bit on the high side).

Denying that the dog can now do those tricks however is.
You simply pick and choose the facts to suit your oppinion and disregard the others.
You could, ya know.. try and admit that GW has improved, just not in the area you consider the most important, which is, again, true.

beast_gts wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And then they have the hide to make 1KSons Terminators the single most expensive Terminator kit outside of the Cataphractii kit. I mean what the feth are they thinking?

They're £35, the same as the other new Terminator kits - Blood Angels and Deathwing (but the Cataphractii are a bit on the high side).

Note the Oz flag...

Ruin wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And then they have the hide to make 1KSons Terminators the single most expensive Terminator kit outside of the Cataphractii kit. I mean what the feth are they thinking?

They're £35, the same as the other new Terminator kits - Blood Angels and Deathwing (but the Cataphractii are a bit on the high side).

Note the Oz flag...

Just looked on the Oz site - what the hell?!?! My apologies H.B.M.C.

 Thairne wrote:
Denying that the dog can now do those tricks however is.
You simply pick and choose the facts to suit your oppinion and disregard the others.
You could, ya know.. try and admit that GW has improved, just not in the area you consider the most important, which is, again, true.

No, the point is that there are, in life and games, priorities. You cannot enjoy the funny ball tricks if the room smells of s**t.

The fact that rules are clunkier and fluff is dumber makes all the new shiny stuff pointless.

Yes, finally 1k Sons! .... with the same basic crappy rules
Yeah new blue paint! ... to paint those parody of marines
YEESSS WARHAMMER TV... that explains me how to paint models with fluff and crunch ruined.

All these are accessories, you appreciate where is due (and Duncan Rhodes is better than the whole design team together, sleepy, drunk and with an arm behind his back). But the core must be solid, there must be structure, priorities.

Can I say "Ordnung muss sein", perhaps, if is the right context?

It doesn't make it pointless.
The new shiny stuff includes things like gathering user feedback on the next General's Handbook. That is significant.

You entirely disregard that. The point and question asked however "Has GW improved" and not "Has GW improved the rules".
If it was the latter, there would be no argument. Because they didn't. Because they CAN'T.

Factually, they have improved. You deny that by saying "they didn't do X" and ignore the rest. Ignoring the rest, not conceding the point that these facts exist, is bad discussion culture.
It may not mean anything to you, but they have improved. Denying that makes you look bitter.

Or, in other words... let me ask you a question.

Do you deny that
- Return of specialist games
- Return/Introduction of armies highly anticipated
- Hugely discounted bundles/ Start Collecting Boxes
- Warhammer TV / Warhammer Live
was in existance before? Does their existance now not conduct an improvement to times before they existed?

If you answer "no" this discussion is done. Because then you are so focused on the rules that nothing else will be seen.

I for one wonder when they'll stop being misers and give them good cameras and mics for the tournament reports. Speaking of warhammer TV, do they still have the last week's tournament coverage on twitch?

 Thairne wrote:
It doesn't make it pointless.
The new shiny stuff includes things like gathering user feedback on the next General's Handbook. That is significant.

You entirely disregard that. The point and question asked however "Has GW improved" and not "Has GW improved the rules".
If it was the latter, there would be no argument. Because they didn't. Because they CAN'T.

Factually, they have improved. You deny that by saying "they didn't do X" and ignore the rest. Ignoring the rest, not conceding the point that these facts exist, is bad discussion culture.
It may not mean anything to you, but they have improved. Denying that makes you look bitter.

Or, in other words... let me ask you a question.

Do you deny that
- Return of specialist games
- Return/Introduction of armies highly anticipated
- Hugely discounted bundles/ Start Collecting Boxes
- Warhammer TV / Warhammer Live
was in existance before? Does their existance now not conduct an improvement to times before they existed?

If you answer "no" this discussion is done. Because then you are so focused on the rules that nothing else will be seen.

You are being purportedly stubborn here. I am done.

Sounds like a few arguments splitting hairs.
How about "Has GW gotten better in a significant way in the last year?"
We could say that too depends on what is important to you.
Cost is important(ish) to me and some steps are made with the start collecting packages.
Models we read about in fluff they are getting out, who would of thought we would be seeing Custodes or Sisters of Silence?
GW certainly needs to improve from where they are.

X-wing has great rules and has great looking models and you can play straight out of the box rather inexpensively. I think you could say that for most FFG SW franchise anything.
Malifaux has interesting rules, amazing models and has a fairly well fleshed-out fluff stories/world.
Bolt Action I would say is the 40k ruleset taken to a logical and MUCH more streamlined level.

If I was to give a suggestion on the direction for 40k to go is to clean the rules up to a Bolt Action level and maybe a little less emphasis on the "pin" accumulation and focus on where they are already: a slightly larger game above squad level. We are used to the big stomping, crushing creatures, robots and tanks. They look awesome and it truly differentiates the game from others.
It is just the rules are so unwieldy the games take forever to play.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

You are being purportedly stubborn here. I am done.

Same as you