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 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Yeah, I'm not exactly bullish on GW, but they're showing signs of life, and a few areas seem to be getting better.

Really though, the rules are simply byzantine. It's like 2nd edition AD&D, with a half dozen books required to play many common armies. The amount of unnecessary rolling, rules that ignore other rules, and patched nonsense to avoid using basic modifiers makes it a much more difficult game to play than if they just went to a simple modifier system.

I can't wait until they introduce THAC0 in 8th

bwahahaha! THAC0...you win the day

 Tara wrote:
Okay, there has been a lot of discussion here, some good, some not so much. Some I agree with, some not so much!

I guess the question is, will 8th edition fix all the screw ups and be a solid rules set? Oh, and how many Codex will need to be tweaked to work with this edition?

I gave up on buying anything from them over 4 years ago. I like the game, house ruled what we didn't like and play fairly regular. Our group is happy and has a few more $ towards drinks to assist in the enjoyment!

T...

We won't know if 8th is any better until it drops. Until then its purely speculation. Based on GW's history, I'd wager it won't do nearly enough and we'll likely end up with most of the problems that plague 7th, just with a different dressing.

We won't know how the old codices interact with 8th until it drops as well.

I'd be shocked if GW rebooted the game hard (like it frankly needs to be), but we can hope in the meantime.

I'm just waiting for all new plastic BFG.

Well, I don't give the argument of any behaviors or expectations from GW beyond the last 18 months any certainty because they've clearly changed way more than I expected, faster and still are. Just IMO.

 VeteranNoob wrote:
Well, I don't give the argument of any behaviors or expectations from GW beyond the last 18 months any certainty because they've clearly changed way more than I expected, faster and still are. Just IMO.

Their ability to write rules, however, has not changed, and is as poor or even worse than its ever been.

So with regards to expectations for 8th, I imagine everyone is better off setting the bar super low and being surprised if its decent rather than setting the bar high based on GW discovering the internet is not in fact a fad and being disappointed by another poorly written rulebook.

 Blacksails wrote:
Their ability to write rules, however, has not changed, and is as poor or even worse than its ever been.
So with regards to expectations for 8th, I imagine everyone is better off setting the bar super low and being surprised if its decent rather than setting the bar high based on GW discovering the internet is not in fact a fad and being disappointed by another poorly written rulebook.

So no change in expectation since two revisions back?
It would be really nice to see if they hire or contract some people who have made a few game rules... you know, to show they are serious at addressing the main engagement issues they have with their customers.
They are so close to turning things around it is almost maddening.

That's the frustrating part watching them release rules. They are one of the longest running miniatures/rules writing companies with one of the largest budgets. By any account, they should have the most experience to draw on, and have the most money to ensure they hire and retain the best talent and ensure the product is properly written and tested.

Its even funnier watching ex-GW game designers make successful rival games, like Dropfleet Commander for example.

They've done some progress, mostly when it comes to release some factions people were clamoring for. In the last 2 years, we had Harlies, CM, GC and DW, and it seems like we might get SOB soon. That's simply fantastic. The reintroduction of SG is also a huge step in the right direction. They also started to interact more with the community, which was long overdue. Still, they also took a few steps backward. I won't even go into AOS, since I've stated my opinion about it often enough. What bothers me a lot is this new trend of nickel and diming the customers (paid video, paid virtual cards for ST). And the price are as bad as ever, or maybe even worse than ever. The price of their clampack models is now truly ridiculous. They were about 15$ when they were introduced, and now they are more than double that price. In only a few years. Truly scandalous

New SOB would be nice but for the poor slob like me that built a SOB army 8 years ago and been hoping since it is a bit late, and now they are going to drop one of the vehicles I hear. GEEEZZZZ

Anyone here looking to buy a SOB army?

T...

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:Second Edition Chaos codex was by Andy Chambers and Jervis Johnson.

And 3.5 codex was written by Andy Chambers, Pete Haines, Andy Hoare, Phil Kelly and Graham McNeill, as far as the book credits go. However we do know that Haines was the main designer behind it.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Well, we can look at the codex which Chambers helped write and the one which came after which he didn't. If Jervis was the person pushing for the rules in the Chambers/Jervis codex then surely some of those rules and style would have carried over into the one which Chambers didn't do?

Exactly.

If Chambers+Jervis=good, Jervis alone=extremely uninspired, and no Jervis=great again, I think it's easy to draw a pretty solid conclusion.

As I did in my previous post, I'll acknowledge again that Jervis has nice ideas from time to time, but he's just extremely hit and miss, and tends to miss more than he hits.

Doomrider was cool though.

SKR.HH wrote:
Yeah... GW exclusively equals WH 40K...

Do you ignore the title on purpose?

Did I say that?

Do you pack straw into people's mouths on purpose?

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

Knew that was coming, due to the Anti Jervis sentiment this forum has.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've arrived at a pretty strong anti-Jervis stance simply by virtue of the things he's said and the things he's done.

There's little to be argued based on past glories of 20 years ago (and let's be fair, BB may be a fun game, but it is also a poster child for all the random nonsense that has been a hallmark of his rules writing and the attitude he's expressed in editorials, it just so happens to be in a context that's appropriate.) I also resent the implication I've seen from him that if I don't like his way, that somehow is my problem.

I don't think that post 5th 40K has come in for the criticism is has in some quarters and the lack of another "name" core rules writer post Alessio is coincidental. I believe we're seeing 40K as JJ sees it, without the moderating voice of someone with a better idea of good rules design. One can only hope that the commercial pressures of the last few years have resulted in a review of how much influence one guy apparently had over the direction of the game.

Yeah, I'd really hope that GW learned from the lessons of the past and don't hand someone their OWN army's book to write. I think Alessio Cavatore may be the exception to this, or maybe Chambers with the Ork codex, but it should be a rule.

The only problem I have with Jervis is GW not knowing the difference between giving away unofficial fun rules in White Dwarf as opposed to selling them as official updates/ supplements.

Joyboozer wrote:
The only problem I have with Jervis is GW not knowing the difference between giving away unofficial fun rules in White Dwarf as opposed to selling them as official updates/ supplements.

Something that might be a good idea: releasing "silly supplement rules" on the webby for free - it'd certainly be another step towards improving public relations.

 Mangod wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
The only problem I have with Jervis is GW not knowing the difference between giving away unofficial fun rules in White Dwarf as opposed to selling them as official updates/ supplements.

Something that might be a good idea: releasing "silly supplement rules" on the webby for free - it'd certainly be another step towards improving public relations.

*looks at 800-pounds gorilla with a "AoS Free Rules" sign in the hands*

 Mangod wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
The only problem I have with Jervis is GW not knowing the difference between giving away unofficial fun rules in White Dwarf as opposed to selling them as official updates/ supplements.

Something that might be a good idea: releasing "silly supplement rules" on the webby for free - it'd certainly be another step towards improving public relations.

I thought they did.

Davor wrote:

 Mangod wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
The only problem I have with Jervis is GW not knowing the difference between giving away unofficial fun rules in White Dwarf as opposed to selling them as official updates/ supplements.

Something that might be a good idea: releasing "silly supplement rules" on the webby for free - it'd certainly be another step towards improving public relations.

I thought they did.

I was thinking of things like "Movie Marines"; blatantly unbalanced or ridiculous things that are meant for more a unconventional experience than the regular games.

Ah totally forgot about Movie marines. :p

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Mangod wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
The only problem I have with Jervis is GW not knowing the difference between giving away unofficial fun rules in White Dwarf as opposed to selling them as official updates/ supplements.

Something that might be a good idea: releasing "silly supplement rules" on the webby for free - it'd certainly be another step towards improving public relations.

*looks at 800-pounds gorilla with a "AoS Free Rules" sign in the hands*

They don't really count as free when you need a paid-for supplement to make them usable.

Herzlos wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Mangod wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
The only problem I have with Jervis is GW not knowing the difference between giving away unofficial fun rules in White Dwarf as opposed to selling them as official updates/ supplements.

Something that might be a good idea: releasing "silly supplement rules" on the webby for free - it'd certainly be another step towards improving public relations.

*looks at 800-pounds gorilla with a "AoS Free Rules" sign in the hands*

They don't really count as free when you need a paid-for supplement to make them usable.

Yeah .... paid supplement.

It's like air... it's free but you need an air conditioner to make it usable when you live in Dubai.

It ain't free bro !!!!

morgoth wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Mangod wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
The only problem I have with Jervis is GW not knowing the difference between giving away unofficial fun rules in White Dwarf as opposed to selling them as official updates/ supplements.

Something that might be a good idea: releasing "silly supplement rules" on the webby for free - it'd certainly be another step towards improving public relations.

*looks at 800-pounds gorilla with a "AoS Free Rules" sign in the hands*

They don't really count as free when you need a paid-for supplement to make them usable.

Yeah .... paid supplement.

It's like air... it's free but you need an air conditioner to make it usable when you live in Dubai.

It ain't free bro !!!!

And soon AC won't be enough it'll be 150 Celsius by the end of the century, unlivable.

hobojebus wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Mangod wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
The only problem I have with Jervis is GW not knowing the difference between giving away unofficial fun rules in White Dwarf as opposed to selling them as official updates/ supplements.

Something that might be a good idea: releasing "silly supplement rules" on the webby for free - it'd certainly be another step towards improving public relations.

*looks at 800-pounds gorilla with a "AoS Free Rules" sign in the hands*

They don't really count as free when you need a paid-for supplement to make them usable.

Yeah .... paid supplement.

It's like air... it's free but you need an air conditioner to make it usable when you live in Dubai.

It ain't free bro !!!!

And soon AC won't be enough it'll be 150 Celsius by the end of the century, unlivable.

But then, heat will be free, but you'll still need an air conditioner to make it usable for anything else than cooking.

They'll probably blame Jervis for that as well.

I was actually referring to the difference in balance required for an addition to the core rules as opposed to something free you could just use for fun.
Jervis writes things that are for fun.

Herzlos wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Mangod wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
The only problem I have with Jervis is GW not knowing the difference between giving away unofficial fun rules in White Dwarf as opposed to selling them as official updates/ supplements.

Something that might be a good idea: releasing "silly supplement rules" on the webby for free - it'd certainly be another step towards improving public relations.

*looks at 800-pounds gorilla with a "AoS Free Rules" sign in the hands*

They don't really count as free when you need a paid-for supplement to make them usable.

What are you talking about? They are perfectly usable. People just choose not to use them. There is a difference between they can and choosing not to.

Despite my anti-GW stance, I'm trying to be neutral on this, but it amazes me how a company like GW actually survives.

For example, they can't be making a profit on hobby supplies, if my buying patterns are reflected across the community.

Even when I was buying GW stuff, I was still getting my hobby supplies elsewhere, either because they were better, cheaper, or cheaper and better.

Poly Cement: Revell is cheaper, better and has a better nozzle IMO.

Primer: I've started using Vallejo and Tamiya brush on primers and they are cheaper and better IMO.

PVA glue is sold cheaply by the gallon in art and craft stores.

Sand: free from my local beach.

Slate: free again from the surrounding world

And so on and so on.

So where is GW making the money from? Miniatures? That used to be and is probably still the case, but rivals are starting to match and surpass them on this.

One thing for sure - it's certainly not hobby supplies.

Davor wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Mangod wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
The only problem I have with Jervis is GW not knowing the difference between giving away unofficial fun rules in White Dwarf as opposed to selling them as official updates/ supplements.

Something that might be a good idea: releasing "silly supplement rules" on the webby for free - it'd certainly be another step towards improving public relations.

*looks at 800-pounds gorilla with a "AoS Free Rules" sign in the hands*

They don't really count as free when you need a paid-for supplement to make them usable.

What are you talking about? They are perfectly usable. People just choose not to use them. There is a difference between they can and choosing not to.

You guys miss the point (and hence it means I was has been unclear). The gorilla joke was about silly supplements and how their humour just sucks, at least in base of the AoS free rules.

Davor wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
What are you talking about? They are perfectly usable. People just choose not to use them. There is a difference between they can and choosing not to.

Ok, usable in a pick-up sense. From what I can tell, everyone uses the GH book now for some sort of balance.
I'm sure the base rules are usable for the unbound play, but for everyone else, you need the GH.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Despite my anti-GW stance, I'm trying to be neutral on this, but it amazes me how a company like GW actually survives.

For example, they can't be making a profit on hobby supplies, if my buying patterns are reflected across the community.

Even when I was buying GW stuff, I was still getting my hobby supplies elsewhere, either because they were better, cheaper, or cheaper and better.

It's a combination of huge mark-up (they don't need to sell many glues), people not knowing better (mum buying a starter for Timmy), people valuing convenience (I do this with paint, as Vallejo is harder to get locally), and the... <unexplained factor> My gaming buddy rants about how fething useless GW poly cement is, but refuses to buy anything else because it's not the right stuff. Won't touch non-GW paints, or brushes, or minis. He's got a thing about doing things right, using the best/original company, and in his mind that's GW.
He's a bit weird though; it's taken me nearly 20 years to get him to try a hamburger.


I'm still amazed at how they survive, but that's more based on how badly they seem to run everything and still somehow get away with it. They are pretty much a model of how not to do business, but they've got such a perfect fan-boy technique somehow that they seem completely invulnerable to even the most incompetent management.

Herzlos wrote:

Davor wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
What are you talking about? They are perfectly usable. People just choose not to use them. There is a difference between they can and choosing not to.

Ok, usable in a pick-up sense. From what I can tell, everyone uses the GH book now for some sort of balance.
I'm sure the base rules are usable for the unbound play, but for everyone else, you need the GH.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Despite my anti-GW stance, I'm trying to be neutral on this, but it amazes me how a company like GW actually survives.

For example, they can't be making a profit on hobby supplies, if my buying patterns are reflected across the community.

Even when I was buying GW stuff, I was still getting my hobby supplies elsewhere, either because they were better, cheaper, or cheaper and better.

It's a combination of huge mark-up (they don't need to sell many glues), people not knowing better (mum buying a starter for Timmy), people valuing convenience (I do this with paint, as Vallejo is harder to get locally), and the... <unexplained factor> My gaming buddy rants about how fething useless GW poly cement is, but refuses to buy anything else because it's not the right stuff. Won't touch non-GW paints, or brushes, or minis. He's got a thing about doing things right, using the best/original company, and in his mind that's GW.
He's a bit weird though; it's taken me nearly 20 years to get him to try a hamburger.


I'm still amazed at how they survive, but that's more based on how badly they seem to run everything and still somehow get away with it. They are pretty much a model of how not to do business, but they've got such a perfect fan-boy technique somehow that they seem completely invulnerable to even the most incompetent management.

I knew somebody like that as well - I spent years trying to tell them that PVA glue is PVA glue, and poly cement is poly cement, regardless of what label is on it.

I used the digestive biscuit example i.e Britain's top brand for this also makes digestive biscuits for supermarket own brands.

There's probably only one or two paint factories in Europe that make the stuff for everybody, and the only difference is usually the label.

He remained unconvinced.

I told him that companies like Honda let other companies make and use their engines under licence, as long as they don't call it a Honda engine, even when for all intensive purposes it is a Honda spec engine...

It still fell on deaf ears

Some people, I tell you

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Mangod wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
The only problem I have with Jervis is GW not knowing the difference between giving away unofficial fun rules in White Dwarf as opposed to selling them as official updates/ supplements.

Something that might be a good idea: releasing "silly supplement rules" on the webby for free - it'd certainly be another step towards improving public relations.

*looks at 800-pounds gorilla with a "AoS Free Rules" sign in the hands*

The issue there, is that those "silly free rules" came alongside in the complete destruction of the fantasy game system and world, rather than being a new, fun alternative that could be used instead or alongside it if the players wanted to.

It is akin to GW dropping Orcs and Gobbos as a fantasy army but saying it's all okay because they released the rules for Brewhouse Bash for free.