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morgoth wrote:

The fact of the matter is, the immense majority of 40K model buyers are not going to divert disposable income from GW to FFG, because X-Wing just doesn't compete with 40K.
They're way too different, 40K is way more expensive, requires serious investment in modelling, table and terrain as well as tons of rules etc.

I did. Admittedly, the fact I could get ships straight on the table and the simple rules were massive selling points. It was cheaper, easier and more fun; what's not to love?

I'm also far from alone - almost everyone in my gaming club has some X-Wing that probably came out of their hobby budget, meaning a lot of it came from potential GW sales.

Herzlos wrote:

morgoth wrote:

The fact of the matter is, the immense majority of 40K model buyers are not going to divert disposable income from GW to FFG, because X-Wing just doesn't compete with 40K.
They're way too different, 40K is way more expensive, requires serious investment in modelling, table and terrain as well as tons of rules etc.

I did. Admittedly, the fact I could get ships straight on the table and the simple rules were massive selling points. It was cheaper, easier and more fun; what's not to love?

I'm also far from alone - almost everyone in my gaming club has some X-Wing that probably came out of their hobby budget, meaning a lot of it came from potential GW sales.

I'd say a lot of 40k model buyers are not going to divert disposable income from GW to FFG because they already HAVE diverted it away from GW and never diverted it back

Seriously, I'd bet money most X-Wing players are either current or ex-GW customers.

Pretty much every game on the shelf when you walk in to an FLGS is direct competition for GW and a source of them haemorrhaging money because most of the people who play those other games, even ones that aren't remotely like 40k, are potential GW customers. The ones that aren't ex-GW customers probably just haven't been around long enough and were put off by vets who are ex-GW customers.

Really, all this discussion shows is that some people have REALLY bought in GW's propaganda machine. The idea that 40K is a unique hobby with no rivals is a very nice myth to try to keep customers loyal.

Not to mention that it can only be argued by making broad, sweeping assumptions with absolutely no evidential support, and, in some cases, actually ignoring or contradicting the information and evidence available.

"Propaganda" is kind of a bad term for what we're seeing- it implies that GW is a totalitarian government trying to control the masses with fascist rhetoric. I'll grant you, when GW people talk about "The Games Workshop Hobby" I do feel like it is Big Brother talking to me.

Public Relations is what we call it when a corporation does this stuff. And the GW PR has been absolutely awful for many, many years- and in a lot of ways it has been worse than their other actions. I think it has gotten a lot better in the past year.

The biggest change is that they don't seem to be "Hobby Deniers" anymore (as in they no longer say crap that implies that no other company makes miniatures). They have a presence at Gencon- albeit a small one.

They don't seem to be denying their past, either- they're bringing back some of their old ranges and games. The rollout for Blood Bowl was pretty good. The General's Handbook went well too- it is an inexpensive book that turns their 4 page outline into a wargaming rules set. Sure- most of their boxed games are all about the 40k rattle value, but they're doing other things as well.


Does that necessarily mean a resurgeance of 40k? Not necessarily. Does it mean that 40k is secretly outselling X-Wing? The evidence we have says no. But GW have been afraid of having a diverse lineup of games for a long time- it is high time they went back to making and supporting several lines- even if they aren't the biggest lines they have.

So we're still waiting to see how the support for Blood Bowl goes (and some of us are still hoping Warhammer Quest gets support). We'll see, but it is not wrong to take hope from the changes they have implemented.

Eh, fair enough. "Propaganda" probably is a little extreme a term. But yeah, their marketing has been traditionally fairly arrogant. See the quote about marketing research being otiose.

 odinsgrandson wrote:

Does that necessarily mean a resurgeance of 40k? Not necessarily. But GW have been afraid of having a diverse lineup of games for a long time- it is high time they went back to making and supporting several lines.

So we're still waiting to see how the support for Blood Bowl goes (and some of us are still hoping Warhammer Quest gets support).

I think they tried it at a time when it was too expensive to do so - and when they were their own main competitors - , and subsequently realized their mistake.

Nowadays, anyone and their friends can launch a kickstarter, have miniatures produced for a resonable cost and rules printed just the same, and I think they're waking up to that and resurrecting these otherwise profitless ventures.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Seriously, I'd bet money most X-Wing players are either current or ex-GW customers.

There's a huge number of X-Wing players that have never even touched GW before. Which is a big concern, because GW used to be the de-facto gateway into wargaming, and people are now finding other entrances. It's unlikely that people will convert back to GW once the veil is broken.

I'd bet that a huge percentage of self identified ex-GW customers (like me, haven't bought anything GW except paint since Finecast) will have played X-Wing.

Herzlos is right- games are becoming larger and larger- miniatures game included.


And in the current diverse marketplace, there are now lots of people who have never played 40k who are playing miniatures games. Some of them (a lot) are playing X-Wing, some are playing Warmachine, Malifaux or Infinity, and a lot of them are playing the many miniatures board games that have been booming like mad (Kingdom Death, Zombicide, Blood Rage, Super Dungeon etc).

The marketplace has definitely changed, and GW's old business practices are outdated (if they ever were legitimate).



One thing though- I don't think that X-Wing is the de-facto place for ex-GW gamers to go. The hobby and gaming elements are very different, so I can see how some of the (many) other games might appeal more.

Personally, I've been out of GW for years, but I really love Blood Bowl, and I like what they're doing with it. I don't hate GW, I just don't feel like I need to be interested in their minis/games when there are so many other fantastic minis/games out there.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Really, all this discussion shows is that some people have REALLY bought in GW's propaganda machine. The idea that 40K is a unique hobby with no rivals is a very nice myth to try to keep customers loyal.

Agreed. It's the worst thing GW do to the hobby imo.

For example, all I see when Morgoth types is;
"Only GW make good GW models for my GW game. No other games count as they aren't made by GW".

These type of people will swear the only acceptable mini games are 40k and AoS. Then GW re-release Blood Bowl and they'll be all over it. If GW had sold BB rights to another manufacturer, they wouldn't touch it. GW is their god.

Personally, the best thing GW ever did was kill off my GW only hobby by bringing out the End Times. Since that pushed me out from the GW apron, I've found every single game system I've picked up since, to be far better games than anything GW has ever made.

Have GW got better this last year? Well... could they have got worse?

@Gimgamboo- Blood Bowl is good enough to have been made by not-GW standards.

I mean, it is a really great game, and stands far above every other rules set of theirs I've played (and I've played a lot). It isn't easily outshone by the many and varied games out there (while I feel that 40k and AoS are outshone in many respects by other rules sets).


Don't mean to just be contrary. I just love a game and want to spread the word (you know how gamers are).

I think the point he was making is that the quality of the rules is irrelevant, if it hasn't got "Games Workshop" on the box, there's a sub set of customers that won't touch it.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
@Gimgamboo- Blood Bowl is good enough to have been made by not-GW standards.

I mean, it is a really great game, and stands far above every other rules set of theirs I've played (and I've played a lot). It isn't easily outshone by the many and varied games out there (while I feel that 40k and AoS are outshone in many respects by other rules sets).


Don't mean to just be contrary. I just love a game and want to spread the word (you know how gamers are).

I wasn't digging at BB. However it's out there as free rules and loads of companies make figures for it. None of the GW devoted will touch it though. That is till the GW god of shiny things re-release it. Those fans obviously aren't fussed by the game or they'd already be playing it. It's the GW selling machine in force.

I think there is a customer base that GW had cornered the market on in the past and many people had been cast adrift for a while.

Competitive gamers.

In the age of competitive first person shooters, DOTA and StarCraft where gaming is considered a "sport" some customers are looking for a competitive forum.
The same types of players that may have been in the chess club.
GW is still in the "lets just have fun!" stage of rules making and cannot really attract those people back as the rules stand now.

I like the comments on X-wing and say that it does scratch the more competitive itch and that is also why many ex-GW players have not looked back.

The "sport" has to be big enough to get pickup games and some good tiered competition.
You kinda need to be a bit of a rules-lawyer for competitive since you want to win "fair and square" and GW rules just suck for inexact language.
So official rules as they stand is the requirement with few if any added rules for tournaments.

It is certainly not a requirement to have good rules to buy GW product, they certainly have many other reasons but it would exclude certain former customers who believe the game is paramount.

morgoth wrote:
To an outside observer, there is no difference between an out-of-the-box X-Wing spaceship and a Matchbox, that's all I'm pointing out.

To an outside observer there's no difference between 40k models and a cheap plastic toy from walmart. The ignorance of outside observers does not mean anything here.

The vast majority of people who buy GW products is strongly affected by the assembly requirements, whether they love it, hate it, outsource it or anything else, it does represent a very large part of the hobby, for some more than half of it.

You are welcome to ignore this, as any other argument.

Slogging through the bare minimum of something you hate is not part of the hobby for that person, it's an annoyance they have to put up with. That person who hates the modeling side of the hobby is going to make their buying decision based on other factors: fluff, rules, etc. They aren't going to look at a game like X-Wing and say "nah, I don't have to assemble those models, that's not competing for my money".

 Peregrine wrote:

morgoth wrote:
To an outside observer, there is no difference between an out-of-the-box X-Wing spaceship and a Matchbox, that's all I'm pointing out.

To an outside observer there's no difference between 40k models and a cheap plastic toy from walmart. The ignorance of outside observers does not mean anything here.

Well said, to most outsiders they look like pieces of plastic/resin/metal which we push around a board pretending to wage war with, which when you look it at a very basic level, is completely true. Not that I see it like that, but that's a completely different topic.

GW imo have gotten better over the last year, but there are still things they need to do to get themselves 'back in the game' - they were never really out of it, but you know what I mean!
- Lower prices, make initial costs lower, a good example of this is Warlords Gates of Antares rulebook - £30, but you can download get started rules for FREE! Compare this to 40k's rulebook price, and you can see what I mean.
- Strip the 40k gak - by this I'm talking about special rules, there are so many of them it is absolutely ridiculous. I mean its really nice to have all these unique and special armies, and I agree they should have some special rules, but strip a lot of the unnecessary stuff and streamline the rules for 8th ed. Don't Sigmarize it please because then you've got Sci Fi Sigmar and Fantasy Sigmar, whats the point in two games that have the same base rules, just perhaps in different settings? One of my favourite things about 40k is finding new previously little-known formations and detachments and trying them out, so don't make it mundane (for example I've heard that the Warmachine competitive scene is very predetermined in terms of 'you take this list, you win', please correct me if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't want 40k to become like this), keep the variety there but just streamline, and make it so players actually have chance of remembering all their rules!

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Really, all this discussion shows is that some people have REALLY bought in GW's propaganda machine. The idea that 40K is a unique hobby with no rivals is a very nice myth to try to keep customers loyal.

Agreed. It's the worst thing GW do to the hobby imo.

For example, all I see when Morgoth types is;
"Only GW make good GW models for my GW game. No other games count as they aren't made by GW".

These type of people will swear the only acceptable mini games are 40k and AoS. Then GW re-release Blood Bowl and they'll be all over it. If GW had sold BB rights to another manufacturer, they wouldn't touch it. GW is their god.

Personally, the best thing GW ever did was kill off my GW only hobby by bringing out the End Times. Since that pushed me out from the GW apron, I've found every single game system I've picked up since, to be far better games than anything GW has ever made.

Have GW got better this last year? Well... could they have got worse?

Thanks for the words you're putting in my mouth, they're really tasteful.

I totally respect the existence of other games and am very happy to hear that X-Wing is a roaring success, that still doesn't make me want to play it.

Also, I haven't played anything Fantasy for nearly 20 years, and I don't think I'll play again.

It's unfortunate that some people are so busy hating GW that they don't see the many great things they're doing lately - but then it's not like you could enjoy them with all that hatred so ... I guess it doesn't matter.

Oh please, you've spent the last however many pages doing down other games because they somehow don't fit an arbitrary set of criteria you've created to place 40K above them, then expect us to swallow that you're some sort of ultra magnanimous cosmo gamer?

But then in the next breath reduce anyone who still sees that most of the change is cosmetic as a hater?

Gimgamgoo has the right of it.

 DaemonColin wrote:
I've heard that the Warmachine competitive scene is very predetermined in terms of 'you take this list, you win', please correct me if I'm wrong,

Ok, you are incorrect about Warmachine. Sometimes the player base sounds like this- this is because the player base for Warmachine is MUCH more competitive than 40k, and so they tend to separate things into "overpowered" and "useless" without there being any middle ground.

However, when two players battle, the battle tends to go to the better player- EVEN IF THEY HAVE A WORSE LIST. After the big tournaments most years, the Privateer Press forums are buzzing with "How did THAT win?" threads- because people can pull of big wins with supposedly underpowered models.

The game tends to be determined much more by the tactical choices each turn (they used to print up "chess puzzles" in No Quarter Magazine- you are given a situation and need to look for a creative win- assuming you get perfectly average dice rolls).

In addition- Privateer Press makes it a point to keep things even for the competitive gamers. So, if a certain faction or unit is over or under represented in the big tournaments, the PP rules guys are likely to add some errata to even things out more.


Not that I disagree with your sentiment about 40k. In fact, it irks me when armies have only one winning build- but I find it happens much more often in 40k than in Warmachine (and in Warmachine, some key component of said list would quickly be errata'd).

morgoth wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Really, all this discussion shows is that some people have REALLY bought in GW's propaganda machine. The idea that 40K is a unique hobby with no rivals is a very nice myth to try to keep customers loyal.

Agreed. It's the worst thing GW do to the hobby imo.

For example, all I see when Morgoth types is;
"Only GW make good GW models for my GW game. No other games count as they aren't made by GW".

These type of people will swear the only acceptable mini games are 40k and AoS. Then GW re-release Blood Bowl and they'll be all over it. If GW had sold BB rights to another manufacturer, they wouldn't touch it. GW is their god.

Personally, the best thing GW ever did was kill off my GW only hobby by bringing out the End Times. Since that pushed me out from the GW apron, I've found every single game system I've picked up since, to be far better games than anything GW has ever made.

Have GW got better this last year? Well... could they have got worse?

Thanks for the words you're putting in my mouth, they're really tasteful.

I totally respect the existence of other games and am very happy to hear that X-Wing is a roaring success, that still doesn't make me want to play it.

Also, I haven't played anything Fantasy for nearly 20 years, and I don't think I'll play again.

It's unfortunate that some people are so busy hating GW that they don't see the many great things they're doing lately - but then it's not like you could enjoy them with all that hatred so ... I guess it doesn't matter.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth... just into my own ears.

Secondly, please don't brand me a hater of GW. I played WHFB from 1984 onwards, every edition since v2 through to the final version.
I run (or ran) a 40k club at the school I teach at till last summer. The reason it stopped... we had about 3-4 players in each of the 5 year groups. As the eldest leave, more join in the youngest year. For the last 4-5 years, people haven't joined - mainly because they see the price of a single clam pack hero and don't want to spend that kind of money on a single plastic toy soldier. So, the club collapsed last year as the last few players left school. A slow death of a game system by GW itself from overpricing.

However, once you actually go away and play any other mini wargame, you realise just how poor the rules of the GW games are. I'm not saying I haven't had fun playing them, it just took GW pushing me away to find much greener grass everywhere else. Although everyone talks of a new 40k v8 next year, I can't see me playing it again, despite having a wardrobe with 16 old GW hardcases of figures. Whatever guise new 40k comes in, it will still revolve around the current trend of massively oversized expensive models - rather than a boss, some troops and a few special models that made the army stand out.

As for one of the things you said several pages ago about a wargame needing our models building from plastic sprues.... I guess the 40k and WHFB I grew up with weren't wargames. We only had metal Citadel Miniatures back then.

So, plastic Sisters of Battle. GW just have seemed to wash away the negativity for the last two weeks. Didn't think it was possible.

So my hats to them.

I'm surprised at the plastic sisters, but last week I was really surprised at the lack of plastic sisters. I haven't seen all the pics yet- will it be enough to do a whole plastic sisters army, or just a few new units?

Are they also fixing the rules for a 'sisters only' 'dex? I heard that the agents book just reprinted the old sisters rules- but I know Celestine isn't in the new book (even though she's apparently getting a plastic kit).



I feel like they're currently doing some things to please the jaded gamers who rage quit over their beloved forces and games getting canned. I mean, I used to play Necromunda and Mordheim, and I never stopped playing Blood Bowl, so it is good to see those resurface as well. I used to have a Genestealer Cult army, and then they weren't updated into 3rd. Now they get to exist at the same time as Sisters of Battle. Forge World is doing Fimir for Age of Sigmar.

It is as though someone told them how much money they aren't making with all the games and stuff that they aren't doing anything with.

Makes me wonder if we'll see something spiffy show up for Squats, Kroot or Slaan. Who knows what' else they could bring back?

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh please, you've spent the last however many pages doing down other games because they somehow don't fit an arbitrary set of criteria you've created to place 40K above them, then expect us to swallow that you're some sort of ultra magnanimous cosmo gamer?

But then in the next breath reduce anyone who still sees that most of the change is cosmetic as a hater?

Gimgamgoo has the right of it.

Yeah, you don't get to spend that long aggressively attacking the idea that X-Wing could be beating 40K as the premiere miniatures game and then pretend that you were just saying you personally don't like X-Wing. Because no, he was coming up with weird "it feels like a board game so it doesn't count" statements but never saying what about the game mechanics actually support that.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Are they also fixing the rules for a 'sisters only' 'dex? I heard that the agents book just reprinted the old sisters rules- but I know Celestine isn't in the new book (even though she's apparently getting a plastic kit).

To my knowledge nobody knows anything or if they do know, are not saying anything. I know Lady Atia knows, but she is being mum on the subject.

All I can say is expect nothing, so no disappointments. My guess right now, is I would say no, no new Sisters of Battle codex. For all we know these plastic Sisters of Battles can be in a box set like the Horus Hersey games they released. It could be in a game with the Dark Elves what ever that is about. It could just even be a box, with Celestine and her 2 body guards and nothing else and have rules in a new book just like we had with Shield of Baal and other books after it. Never bought them so can't say for sure if it was like Shield of Baal or not.

All I can say is don't expect a new range of Sisters of Battle and codex and just take what little we have until 8th edition shows it's cards and what it will be like. Then again I could be wrong and they can have an entire new release for January/February and new codex.

Davor wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Are they also fixing the rules for a 'sisters only' 'dex? I heard that the agents book just reprinted the old sisters rules- but I know Celestine isn't in the new book (even though she's apparently getting a plastic kit).

To my knowledge nobody knows anything or if they do know, are not saying anything. I know Lady Atia knows, but she is being mum on the subject.

All I can say is expect nothing, so no disappointments. My guess right now, is I would say no, no new Sisters of Battle codex. For all we know these plastic Sisters of Battles can be in a box set like the Horus Hersey games they released. It could be in a game with the Dark Elves what ever that is about. It could just even be a box, with Celestine and her 2 body guards and nothing else and have rules in a new book just like we had with Shield of Baal and other books after it. Never bought them so can't say for sure if it was like Shield of Baal or not.

All I can say is don't expect a new range of Sisters of Battle and codex and just take what little we have until 8th edition shows it's cards and what it will be like. Then again I could be wrong and they can have an entire new release for January/February and new codex.

Honestly I rather expect a similar treatment like Battlezone Fenris. Setting up in a first book and then with a second one down the year we'll get SoB with complete range and codex...

SKR.HH wrote:
Well... you are interpolating the definition of a wargame out of the characteristics of WH40K. While I agree that this caters my personal taste as well I can acknowledge that other see different characteristics...

No, no - Warhammer 40K isn't a 'wargame' it's 'forging a narrative', remember?

Incidentally, my saying that Star Wars is a a 'simple wargame' is not an insult - a good simple rules system is much to be preferred to an artificially complex rules system. (Then there are those rules systems that manage to be both bad and simple - hello AoS! GW is fixing the initial problems of AoS, but in the process making the game a bit more complex....)

The Auld Grump - to repeat, I am actually in the camp that believes that GW is getting better - but with the caveat that 'better' does not necessarily mean 'good'.

Herzlos wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Seriously, I'd bet money most X-Wing players are either current or ex-GW customers.

There's a huge number of X-Wing players that have never even touched GW before. Which is a big concern, because GW used to be the de-facto gateway into wargaming, and people are now finding other entrances. It's unlikely that people will convert back to GW once the veil is broken.

I'd bet that a huge percentage of self identified ex-GW customers (like me, haven't bought anything GW except paint since Finecast) will have played X-Wing.

True, and I never said I'd bet a LARGE amount of money But I still think a large chunk of X-Wing players like most non-GW-games players are ex- or current-GW customers as well. If not at they're likely to have been influenced in their choices by ex- or current-GW customers. I know *all* the older guys at my local FLGS are ex-GW customers and they tend to be the ones giving advice on which games newbies should start.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:
I totally respect the existence of other games and am very happy to hear that X-Wing is a roaring success, that still doesn't make me want to play it.

I can understand why someone might only want to play 40k, but it's also a pretty shallow to assume just because they only want 40k that all the other games on the market aren't in general competing with 40k.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Seriously, I'd bet money most X-Wing players are either current or ex-GW customers.

There's a huge number of X-Wing players that have never even touched GW before. Which is a big concern, because GW used to be the de-facto gateway into wargaming, and people are now finding other entrances. It's unlikely that people will convert back to GW once the veil is broken.

I'd bet that a huge percentage of self identified ex-GW customers (like me, haven't bought anything GW except paint since Finecast) will have played X-Wing.

True, and I never said I'd bet a LARGE amount of money But I still think a large chunk of X-Wing players like most non-GW-games players are ex- or current-GW customers as well. If not at they're likely to have been influenced in their choices by ex- or current-GW customers. I know *all* the older guys at my local FLGS are ex-GW customers and they tend to be the ones giving advice on which games newbies should start.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:
I totally respect the existence of other games and am very happy to hear that X-Wing is a roaring success, that still doesn't make me want to play it.

I can understand why someone might only want to play 40k, but it's also a pretty shallow to assume just because they only want 40k that all the other games on the market aren't in general competing with 40k.

I think that you are missing part of the market in regards to X-Wing - unlike 40K, I can buy X-Wing at the local bookstore - which is something that has not been true about 40K since the Rogue Trader days. (Guess where I bought my copy of Rogue Trader - and it came with a box of beakie marines.)

X-Wing is cheaper and easier to get into - many of the folks that I have seen buying it have been less than a half my age (less than a third, truth be told).

GW needs a low entry point game again, and they really need to mend their fences with both the independent store owners and with the grey, grim, and grizzled grognards.

Right now, many of those grognards are plugging other games - in my case Kings of War, in other cases Warmahordes or Malifaux - but fewer are plugging GW games.

The latest edition of 40K led to my selling off the Dark Angels army that I had since the Rogue Trader days. (I had not played it since fourth edition - but I had always been more of a WHFB player in any event.)

If a remake of Mordheim or Necromunda is well done, then GW may well find some of those grognards suggesting their games again - I love Mordheim, and am willing to play Necromunda... but somehow find myself running a GorkaMorka game right now.... (Yes, I have hopes for a good Mordheim... but the bitter taste left in my mouth by AoS makes me cautious in that regard.)

The Auld Grump

SKR.HH wrote:

Honestly I rather expect a similar treatment like Battlezone Fenris. Setting up in a first book and then with a second one down the year we'll get SoB with complete range and codex...

I think you might be right.

This new book doesn't look anywhere near as big as the last two major campaign releases, more like a Traitor's Hate-sized book.

Plus I'd hope that there'd be more than just two campaign books in a single year, especially given the 30th anniversary shenanigans.