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 Gimgamgoo wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

Nice to see you're still jumping down people's throats and being an all around horrible individual whenever you get the chance.

He's ignored for a reason, try the button you'll love it.

Oh no, someone has a different opinion to me and won't change their mind...

Opinions are fine, see I'm not anywhere near ignoring you.

I'm sure you'll come to realize some people can ruin your forum experience and you don't have to read them.

morgoth wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

Nice to see you're still jumping down people's throats and being an all around horrible individual whenever you get the chance.

He's ignored for a reason, try the button you'll love it.

Oh no, someone has a different opinion to me and won't change their mind...

Opinions are fine, see I'm not anywhere near ignoring you.

I'm sure you'll come to realize some people can ruin your forum experience and you don't have to read them.

Perhaps by posting off topic crap like this after people have been warned about playing nice you were just trying to provide an example of this experience ruining behaviour?

On topic, I think I'm close to thinking along the better lines, just not having to read Kirbys ridiculous statements is so refreshing. That new LoC is an absolutely amazing sculpt. Read a black library novel, and it was good!

Joyboozer wrote:

On topic, I think I'm close to thinking along the better lines, just not having to read Kirbys ridiculous statements is so refreshing. That new LoC is an absolutely amazing sculpt. Read a black library novel, and it was good!

Not sure why, but I read that in the style of Weird Al Yankovic's 'I'll Sue Ya'.

Still excited to see what's coming in the next year. We've seen new Bloodbowl stuff, and a sneakypeaky at the next pitch (WD, it's there, unheralded and unannounced) and, in theory, both Adeptus Titanicus (my first proper proper GW game after Heroquest and Space Crusader) and HH Vol VII.

Already got a smidge of Custodes stuff (5 Custodes, Calladius and a Contemptor), so expecting we'll see even more for them. Currently, they're in my army to keep a watchful eye on my Loyalist Iron Warrior Garrison.

morgoth wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

Nice to see you're still jumping down people's throats and being an all around horrible individual whenever you get the chance.

He's ignored for a reason, try the button you'll love it.

EDITED - don't want to inflame.

They certainly got better at making money in the last year. The cult prevails!!

 Lansirill wrote:

 Henry wrote:
Poe's law is when someone puts forward an argument where, because of what has been said before, it is impossible to tell whether the argument is an honest argument to be taken at face value or if it is supposed to be satire that reflects other peoples rediculous beliefs.

Basically are you honestly saying that if people want to support their FLGS they should accept the added expense, or are you poking fun at those who would say that?

The other alternative is that this is straight forward sarcasm meant to mock those that say they want to support their FLGS while ignoring the fact those discounts they're getting pissy about not getting would take money directly out of the hands of the FLGS they so want to support.

Pretty much the last one. Buying stuff from the FLGS instead of an online discounter is just a roundabout way of paying rent or a membership fee at the store to play at their tables (or to have the convenience of a B&M store.) The main premium of the boxed set is its reduced price, so it's a little counter productive.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I normally play older games at my brother's house, which is 30-40 miles away from me. My house has NO room for a table, nor can I really deal with the disruption gamers at the house would cause on my wife and kids, especially my special needs son. In that regard, a game store is REALLY convenient, and I'd love to keep them open so I have a place to game locally or if I'm masochistic enough to play current rules. As previously stated, BFG would probably be the hit that gets me back on the plastic crack pipe.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Lansirill wrote:

 Henry wrote:
Poe's law is when someone puts forward an argument where, because of what has been said before, it is impossible to tell whether the argument is an honest argument to be taken at face value or if it is supposed to be satire that reflects other peoples rediculous beliefs.

Basically are you honestly saying that if people want to support their FLGS they should accept the added expense, or are you poking fun at those who would say that?

The other alternative is that this is straight forward sarcasm meant to mock those that say they want to support their FLGS while ignoring the fact those discounts they're getting pissy about not getting would take money directly out of the hands of the FLGS they so want to support.

Pretty much the last one. Buying stuff from the FLGS instead of an online discounter is just a roundabout way of paying rent or a membership fee at the store to play at their tables (or to have the convenience of a B&M store.) The main premium of the boxed set is its reduced price, so it's a little counter productive.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I normally play older games at my brother's house, which is 30-40 miles away from me. My house has NO room for a table, nor can I really deal with the disruption gamers at the house would cause on my wife and kids, especially my special needs son. In that regard, a game store is REALLY convenient, and I'd love to keep them open so I have a place to game locally or if I'm masochistic enough to play current rules. As previously stated, BFG would probably be the hit that gets me back on the plastic crack pipe.

I'd like BFG too, but I don't want to see it soon. They are already doing bloodbowl and plan to do Adepticus Titanicus. They may (to my eyes) have improved but they can easily fall into pitfalls and expand too much the range without properly supporting the games.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Lansirill wrote:

 Henry wrote:
Poe's law is when someone puts forward an argument where, because of what has been said before, it is impossible to tell whether the argument is an honest argument to be taken at face value or if it is supposed to be satire that reflects other peoples rediculous beliefs.

Basically are you honestly saying that if people want to support their FLGS they should accept the added expense, or are you poking fun at those who would say that?

The other alternative is that this is straight forward sarcasm meant to mock those that say they want to support their FLGS while ignoring the fact those discounts they're getting pissy about not getting would take money directly out of the hands of the FLGS they so want to support.

Pretty much the last one. Buying stuff from the FLGS instead of an online discounter is just a roundabout way of paying rent or a membership fee at the store to play at their tables (or to have the convenience of a B&M store.) The main premium of the boxed set is its reduced price, so it's a little counter productive.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I normally play older games at my brother's house, which is 30-40 miles away from me. My house has NO room for a table, nor can I really deal with the disruption gamers at the house would cause on my wife and kids, especially my special needs son. In that regard, a game store is REALLY convenient, and I'd love to keep them open so I have a place to game locally or if I'm masochistic enough to play current rules. As previously stated, BFG would probably be the hit that gets me back on the plastic crack pipe.

I'd like BFG too, but I don't want to see it soon. They are already doing bloodbowl and plan to do Adepticus Titanicus. They may (to my eyes) have improved but they can easily fall into pitfalls and expand too much the range without properly supporting the games.

That's a good point; trying to launch or relaunch too many games simultaneously could end up with none of them getting the necessary support they'd need. Like... if they tried to relaunch Necromunda, Mordheim, BFG, Bloodbowl, and Warmaster (just for example), we could potentially end up in a situation where none of those games has more than 3 or 4 different factions.

After the cock up with the Fall of Cadia campaign, GW have lost almost all of the remaining faith I had with them.

You not liking the plot doesn't make it a 'cock up'.

Something I don't like does not necessarily = something is bad.

Cadia = iconic Imperial Guard homeworld

Therefore the fall of Cadia should be the finest hours of one of the most famous regiments, with the last stand of the Cadian regiments taking place in a glorious, epic and manly battle.

Instead we have Sisters of Battle (do not get me wrong, they need the loving) and GW's favourite mary sues, the Space Marines.

Please tell me what is right about this?

 master of ordinance wrote:

should be

There's your problem. You have an idea that isn't the reality, like HBMC says, that doesn't make it inherently bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus, of course, there's the question why wouldn't the Imperium send everything to defend an "iconic IG home world."

I think this video can answer this question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMtgswEn0Ok

 Azreal13 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

should be

There's your problem. You have an idea that isn't the reality, like HBMC says, that doesn't make it inherently bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus, of course, there's the question why wouldn't the Imperium send everything to defend an "iconic IG home world."

Well, they didn't really focus that much on the cadians, did they? Most of the focus was on the supporting forces and the Triumphrate, which Creed wasn't part of. Not to mention that they got rid of him in a pretty disappointing way (gotta catch em all, right Trazyn? Better than dying, I guess, but what a way to get dispose of a character).
I'm not saying it was bad, but I do understand Master's angle.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

should be

There's your problem. You have an idea that isn't the reality, like HBMC says, that doesn't make it inherently bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus, of course, there's the question why wouldn't the Imperium send everything to defend an "iconic IG home world."

Well, they didn't really focus that much on the cadians, did they? Most of the focus was on the supporting forces and the Triumphrate, which Creed wasn't part of. Not to mention that they got rid of him in a pretty disappointing way (gotta catch em all, right Trazyn? Better than dying, I guess, but what a way to get dispose of a character).
I'm not saying it was bad, but I do understand Master's angle.

Are you kidding? It's perfect, shift all the oop minis to Trazyns collectors range!

Joyboozer wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

should be

There's your problem. You have an idea that isn't the reality, like HBMC says, that doesn't make it inherently bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus, of course, there's the question why wouldn't the Imperium send everything to defend an "iconic IG home world."

Well, they didn't really focus that much on the cadians, did they? Most of the focus was on the supporting forces and the Triumphrate, which Creed wasn't part of. Not to mention that they got rid of him in a pretty disappointing way (gotta catch em all, right Trazyn? Better than dying, I guess, but what a way to get dispose of a character).
I'm not saying it was bad, but I do understand Master's angle.

Are you kidding? It's perfect, shift all the oop minis to Trazyns collectors range!

If you're part of GW's marketing team, sure
If that's the case, then its a brilliant business strategy. I would still rather have cyborg angry not-patton though.

But who knows, maybe they'll release him later on, except this time he'll be decked out with dimensional necron tech which allows him to literally summon baneblades and titans from behind rocks and lampposts
Let the meme come back to life

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

But who knows, maybe they'll release him later on, except this time he'll be decked out with dimensional necron tech which allows him to [i]literally summon baneblades and titans from behind rocks and lampposts[i]
Let the meme come back to life

That would require far more self-awareness than GW is capable of, I'm afraid.

 Fafnir wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

But who knows, maybe they'll release him later on, except this time he'll be decked out with dimensional necron tech which allows him to [i]literally summon baneblades and titans from behind rocks and lampposts[i]
Let the meme come back to life

That would require far more self-awareness than GW is capable of, I'm afraid.

Oh, I don't know about that. They did release a space marine inside of a space marine, after all.

I for one am looking forward to the day when GW just completely gives up and starts copying /tg/
The warhammer 40k rulebook would just have an angry marine flipping the bird on the front cover.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

But who knows, maybe they'll release him later on, except this time he'll be decked out with dimensional necron tech which allows him to [i]literally summon baneblades and titans from behind rocks and lampposts[i]
Let the meme come back to life

That would require far more self-awareness than GW is capable of, I'm afraid.

Oh, I don't know about that. They did release a space marine inside of a space marine, after all.

I for one am looking forward to the day when GW just complete gives up and starts copying /tg/
The warhammer 40k rulebook would just have an angry flipping the bird on the front cover.

And then someone would start a thread like this asking whether it's an improvement or not, and this whole argument and derail into minutiae would start all over again.

I certainly wouldn't mind a bit of the dark humour creeping back into 40k. They've become so far consumed by the grim darkness of the 41st millennium to realize that the absurd humour of it all is what made that grim darkness fun.

In order for the dark humor to work, you need somewhat competent writers. GW has lacked those for a long while.

 Korinov wrote:
In order for the dark humor to work, you need somewhat competent writers. GW has lacked those for a long while.

I don't think that would work even with competent writers. The whole flavour of the systems moved from a style that's overall quite grim but still has that subdued British humour towards something that takes its grimdarkness way too serious (and that's not a recent development). I think Murderfang, or however he's called is a good example. GW used to include humorous references to other work or real history in their work and it was all a bit cheeky and in good fun but then somebody started taking it seriously. It's become a grimdark cargo cult where each new thing has to be grimmer and darker and something relatively normal doesn't cut it anymore.

I think for it to work they would need to recalibrate the intensity of it all and not just write better.

Yup. There's an interview with Rick Priestly, in which he pretty much says that during the 90s the new writers didn't quite get the ironic vibe and dark humor from the original setting and instead became Space Marines' biggest fans. In short, the joke was lost, and then promptly shot to death with over 9000 grimdark and super serious bolter rounds.

IMO it's a bit telling when 3rd edition is many times regarded as the true, first "grimdark" edition of the game. The grimdark was there from the very beginning, in fact the Rogue Trader rulebook is one of the most grimdark things out there.

Ironically, as I see it today, it's got to the point where 40k works really well as a background, but quite awfully as a space fantasy story. The original rulebook drove home the point that the galaxy is a huge brutal place and nobody cares if you die or not. You won't be remembered. I'd rather have that than the superhero battles of more recent times, with painful character-building throw in between.

The Heresy also worked great as a piece of background of which not too much was known about (because it happened 10k years in the past). Then came all those novels. Seriously, I could take a dump on my keyboard and would produce something better than like half of them.

Did you guys ever read a Regimental Standard?

SKR.HH wrote:
Did you guys ever read a Regimental Standard?

Pull your head in boys, the comissars on the prowl!

Well, it goes far beyond just the humour. I think another one of the most telling examples, and better arguments, for the decline of GW's writing is the retcon(s) of Ollanius Pius. Ollanius' (tiny) story was genuinely captivating, even beyond appreciation for the 40k universe. The irony of it all being that GW's attempts to keep making him more and more badass ended up taking away everything that made him cool in the first place. Now he's just another generic superhuman badass in a world that is already overflowing with superhuman badasses.

It's funny (sad), because that's the same mindset being carried forward into a lot of things with GW. Everything has to one-up everything else around it, to the point that all sense of scale and humanity is lost.

One of the aspects that drew me to the Daemonhunters and Grey Knights nearly a decade ago was the idea of these solitary, recognizably human (we'll let the whole 'space marines are tank-wearing demigods' bit slide for a second) characters fighting against overwhelmingly numerous and massive foes (one of my favourite sequences in film, the fight between Prince Phillip and Maleficent of Disney's Sleeping Beauty, goes on to illustrate this idea perfectly). The first picture that sold me on them was that of a small brotherhood of GKT amid a massive ocean of daemons. Of course, when the 5th edition codex came out, that all ended up turned on its head. Not only had the mystery and sense of subtlety behind the Grey Knights been completely lost with fluff that went far deeper into detail than it should have (detail that could have never been as rewarding as the mystery originally suggested, even disregarding how bad Ward's fluff ended up being), but units like the Dreadknight just flew right in the face of that original concept that made the Grey Knights so cool in the first place.

The writing staff are just completely out of touch with the ideas of what makes good world building and narrative, not just humour.

 Fafnir wrote:
Of course, when the 5th edition codex came out, that all ended up turned on its head. Not only had the mystery and sense of subtlety behind the Grey Knights been completely lost with fluff that went far deeper into detail than it should have

This is a core problem IMHO. There is an almost pornographic will to reveal every detail, killing te mystery. Look what they did to Dark Angels. I do wonder what will happen with the primarchs returning.

Also, the concept that everything must one-up what came before creeped into rule writings with the effects we witness today.

This is what happens when you hire fanboys instead of creators.

But is prose not ultimately subjective?

I'll enjoy a book you might despise. Doesn't make either of us right, or indeed wrong, and certainly doesn't mean the book or author is poor.

Non GW example? Star Wars Aftermath. I'm two out of three books in. For me, the plot is good, the writer's style (Chuck Wendig) was a little jarring at first. Some love them, some hate them. For me, despite the style of writing being a little odd, they're still far better and more grounded than the majority of the old Expanded Universe. YMMV of course, but that's perfectly natural.

GW wise? Some of the novels I don't enjoy. I seriously struggle with Dan Abnett's Fantasy work - to me it's just not the Warhammer World I know and love - but I absolutely adore Gotrek and Felix, even Giantslayer, aka Gotrek and Felix And The Contractural Obligation, when you could kind of tell William King's heart just wasn't in it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But is prose not ultimately subjective?

To a degree, but the field of literary criticism exists for a reason. There are generally-accepted ideas about what makes good writing, even if some of the more subtle details come down to personal preferences.

Enjoyment is somewhat detached from literary merits.

For instance, I love the Gotrek series, and Discworld, but I'll readily admit the writing in them is pretty terrible.