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Flakk missiles are a 10 ppm upgrade to a missile launcher.

They have AP 4.

In practice, this means that they only ever get to shoot down flying AV.

It's not even worth it to shoot at flyrants or daemon princes. They can basically just fly around all game with complete impunity if flakk missiles are your primary source of AA (and there's no reason why they shouldn't be; that's what they're for).

This gets super annoying against flyrants with twin-linked devourers. Because then you have an almost impossible to kill model that will score roughly 10 hits per round on the devourers alone, and there's nothing that can be done about it.

Ditto for flying daemon princes with witchfire attacks.

So in addition to FMCs being practically impossible to kill, it also means that those flakk missiles may as well not even have an AP value most of the time. Sure, it'll strip armor from 4+ armor FMCs.

But how many people are using those?

Proposal:

Cap flying FMCs at 4+ armor. At least then they'll have to jink. You could even give them skilled rider of some such nonsense.

This would make BOTH make flakk missiles more worthwhile AND make flying MCs less of a giant pain in the rear.

Nah. I do think it should be common practice to have them at 4+, but certainly not cap them at it.

Flyrants are tough buggers, to be sure... But they're one of the few things that can claim that in the Nids' Codex. So maybe nerf them, after you buff the rest of the codex.

As for the Princes, you're saying WITCHFIRES-the worst psychic powers in the game-make them a threat? Trust me, if witchfires are ruining your day, your opponent either rolls insanely well or you have terrible tactics. Princes are CC monsters, not shooting platforms.

Why does any FMC need a 3+ or better armor?

With 4+ armor, the chances of causing an unsaved wound on a 4+ FMC with T6 with an S6, AP null shot without skyfire is 1 in 24.

It would take, on average, 72 bolter shots to cause a single wound on a flyrant if it had 4+ armor.

3+ armor means that they're basically immune to flakk missiles...which are SPECIFICALLY FOR AA.

Flakk missiles aren't the only AA gun in the game so shouldn't be the baseline used to claim a whole unit type needs a rules change

3+ Save =/= immune. It means resistant.

And if you'll notice, a good deal of Nids FMCs do have 4+ armor. The Flyrant (the big bad? the head honcho? the best around?) just happens to have a 3+.

And I don't see why you're bringing bolters into this. Bolters aren't that different with a 3+ as with a 4+. (108 as opposed to 72 shots to do a wound-either way, not efficient in the slightest).

And Flakk Missiles are hardly useless. Compare them to Krak against a Flyrant:

Flakk hits on 3s, wounds on 3s, with a 3+ save-6.75 shots to a wound.
Krak hits on 6s, wounds on 2s, with no save-7.2 shots to a wound.

Flakk is more efficient assuming no jinking-add a jink to the equation, and you're looking at it being more than twice as good. The numbers actually improve against the Prince (wounding on 2s for both, instead of 3s and 2s, so Flakk only needs 5.4 shots to do a wound, while Krak still needs 7.2).

Edit: Oh, and FNP further tips the favor in Flakk missiles.

MWA HA HA H NO....

You having the habit of using crappy anti air missiles should not force all monsters in the universe to have a poor armour save. How space marine centric or even Traditio centric do you want the game to be ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I use shoota's to shoot down marines should all power armour be capped at a 6+ sv ?

No. But for fluff reasons they should have their rules significantly adjusted. They should keep their immunity to assault when in flyer mode, but get shorter movement distance (9-18" IMO, shorter than true aircraft but a bit faster than walking MCs) and lose the "snap shots only" rule. These are giant lumbering birds, not fighter jets coming in on a strafing run at 200+ mph. They should have the improved mobility of a flying beast, but they shouldn't be any harder to hit than any other huge and slow target.

OZ:

That's not at all comparable. What would be comparable is me saying:

"You know, the average result, assuming melta distance, for a to-penetrate roll for a meltagun is a 15 (S8 + average 7 on 2d6). Maybe there shouldn't be AV 16 vehicles.

And I'm not saying that all MCs should have a "poor" armor save (a 4+ isn't poor if you compare it to the rest of the game).

I'm specifically saying that flying MCs should be capped at 4+ armor. Not all MCs. Just flying ones. You know, the ones that most weapons in the game can't reliably hit.

You say that I have a habit of using "crappy anti-air missiles."

I ask: why are they crappy?

You'll answer: because they don't do their jobs well.

I'll ask: why not?

You'll answer, I assume, agreeing with me: because most serious FMCs have 3+.

Should flakk missiles be crappy? Or should they actually fulfill their intended purposes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
No. But for fluff reasons they should have their rules significantly adjusted. They should keep their immunity to assault when in flyer mode, but get shorter movement distance (9-18" IMO, shorter than true aircraft but a bit faster than walking MCs) and lose the "snap shots only" rule. These are giant lumbering birds, not fighter jets coming in on a strafing run at 200+ mph. They should have the improved mobility of a flying beast, but they shouldn't be any harder to hit than any other huge and slow target.

I could get behind this.

 Traditio wrote:
You'll answer, I assume, agreeing with me: because most serious FMCs have 3+.

Also because they're bad at killing vehicle flyers compared to other AA units. Flak missiles are an act of desperation, not the standard by which everything should be balanced.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
You'll answer, I assume, agreeing with me: because most serious FMCs have 3+.

Also because they're bad at killing vehicle flyers compared to other AA units. Flak missiles are an act of desperation, not the standard by which everything should be balanced.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. AV runs anywhere from 10-12 for flying vehicles (so far as I'm aware), meaning that the average d6 result I need is anywhere from a 3-5 to glance. If I have a devastator squad with flakk, and you have an AV 12 flier, there's a good chance that you'll be jinking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I use imperial fists chapter tactics. AV 12 fliers don't scare me.

 Traditio wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree with this. AV runs anywhere from 10-12 for flying vehicles (so far as I'm aware), meaning that the average d6 result I need is anywhere from a 3-5 to glance. If I have a devastator squad with flakk, and you have an AV 12 flier, there's a good chance that you'll be jinking.

Yes, there's a good chance that I'll be jinking because there's a good chance I'd be going back into reserve to set up a better attack next turn anyway. But that's about all you can expect to get. Against AV 12 your devastator squad gets 4 shots with a 3+ to hit, a 5+ to glance/pen, and a 4+ cover save. That's an average of 0.4444 HP taken off, which translates to your devastator squad probably shooting at a flyer for an entire game and still failing to kill it. A weapon where the best you can reasonably expect to achieve is moderately annoying the enemy is a pretty good definition of "act of desperation", especially at the ridiculous cost of flak missiles.

Interestingly lascannons firing snap shots still get you 0.2222 HP per devastator squad, probably accomplish the same result of getting the target to jink, and are far better than the missile launchers against every other target type. Flak missiles are trash.

Quad guns on aegis lines are str7 ap4

Same issue.

No, but the 3+ armor ones should probably cost a lot more.

FMCs would be more balanced if ground-based AA was less terrible. Let people buy Velocity Trackers for Razorbacks (this isn't a concrete proposal, an actual solution would include more vehicles and likely something more limited than the actual Tau item) and tough FMCs are suddenly a lot less durable/skewey.

(And the most powerful FMCs tend to rely on 2+ Inv/Cover anyway)

4+ armor is crap armor with over 50% of army's are in power armor
A better fix is lower the cost of flack to 2 points a model
But the idea is GW wants to sell AA units make flack to good and why get AA

Oldmike wrote:
4+ armor is crap armor with over 50% of army's are in power armor
A better fix is lower the cost of flack to 2 points a model
But the idea is GW wants to sell AA units make flack to good and why get AA

Just make 3+ armor flyers more expensive.

Naaris wrote:
Quad guns on aegis lines are str7 ap4

Same issue.

The Quad Gun doesn't take up a Heavy Support slot (if you are concerned about that sorta thing) but it also comes with a Defense Line, which means it is doing more than just failing to kill an air opponent.

just fix FMC rules. The layers of BS you have to go through to hurt them is just silly. Hard to hit rule should not exist for FMC.

Here is where all your suggestions fall apart traditio.

What does what equipment they have have to do with their armor save?

Your argument isn't based on the relative lower armor values of flying vehicles vs vehicles. It's that something that hurt you a bunch in games should be weaker.

You fail to take into account other factors. Like maybe Nid fliers need to be a little bit tougher to maintain a little bit of staying power because it's the only source of AA nids have.

Consider that their fliers could be killed easier by both ground forces AND enemy fliers while the nids only answer to enemy fliers is PURELY their own fliers. My understanding is that demons are mostly in the same boat.

These units do not exist in a bubble. They are not a single entity that needs to be balanced against single entities. They are part of an army and they help provide the army with the ability to function against other armys. (not that the game is balanced well)

The Flyrant needs to be less good, and the rest of the codex more good.

Martel732 wrote:
The Flyrant needs to be less good, and the rest of the codex more good.

I agree with that. My idea was to reduce the cost of Hive tyrants by about the cost of wings (walkrants are over costed). Make wings replace a pair of scything talons (now flyrants can only bring 1 pair of tldwblw and would need to use a thorax swarm to fire 2 weapons in a turn). I think that should basically fix them.

Hormagaunts and termagants should 100% be beasts. And put hormagaunts back up to WS 4.

Just b.c they are Strong against a Few things doesn't mean we need to nerf them so you feel better about what your bringing in your list. They have different Counters to them, heck bolters can hurt them. Also if they do take a wound every turn they have to take a grounding test.


Stop QQing b.c you dont want to add AA in your list other than a couple Assault 1 Missiles FOR 10pts!!! and expect that 10pts to kill a 280pt model with a couple shots


What you are asking is equivalent to me saying "My DE cant hurt knights so Knights should get wounded against Haywire on a 4+ instead of a 6"

Instead I would take more Lances (Not HWB) and maybe my fliers so they cant shoot at them.

EDIT: He isnt just talking about Flyrants, he said all FMC. Honestly FMC arnt thatgood, its the additional rules (like the Daemons 2+ Invul save) should be toned down, Flyrants are nearly 300pts. SM can take 3 Storm Ravens just like nids can bring 3 Flyrants, the point is 90% the players DONT make a counter to Air units.

As a Nid player I have faced against 3 Storm Raven army lists MANY times (We have a BA player that loves playing them) And honestly with 5 MC he still wins 50% the time easily.

" heck bolters can hurt them"

No, they really can't. It's mathematically possible, yes, but so unlikely as to not be a pratical consideration. No one has 500 bolter shots laying around to get into statistically meaningful chances.

Stormravens are overcosted trash, however. They are especially awful with Death from the Skies.

Martel732 wrote:
" heck bolters can hurt them"

No, they really can't. It's mathematically possible, yes, but so unlikely as to not be a pratical consideration. No one has 500 bolter shots laying around to get into statistically meaningful chances.

Stormravens are overcosted trash, however. They are especially awful with Death from the Skies.

Hurting and killing are 2 different things. You need to remove 1 wound? Go for it.

The point is most guns can hurt them. Most FMC are 280-340pts. Trying to kill 300pts with 20 points a turn is a stupid idea.

Nerfing something b.c you dont want to change your list is stupid too. The game is balanced when you TALK to your opponent first. If they are Nids or Daemons then you know there is a very good chance of 2-4 FMC.

You dont have to play storm ravens tho, there are many AA options and Other AA fliers (Now there are other AA fliers)

EDIT: FMC can be hurt with blasts and templates if that unit has Skyfire. Again there are other options stop QQing b.c you dont want to take those options .

.

Watch out , we have a strong minority of YES !

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" heck bolters can hurt them"

No, they really can't. It's mathematically possible, yes, but so unlikely as to not be a pratical consideration. No one has 500 bolter shots laying around to get into statistically meaningful chances.

Stormravens are overcosted trash, however. They are especially awful with Death from the Skies.

Hurting and killing are 2 different things. You need to remove 1 wound? Go for it.

The point is most guns can hurt them. Most FMC are 280-340pts. Trying to kill 300pts with 20 points a turn is a stupid idea.

Nerfing something b.c you dont want to change your list is stupid too. The game is balanced when you TALK to your opponent first. If they are Nids or Daemons then you know there is a very good chance of 2-4 FMC.

You dont have to play storm ravens tho, there are many AA options and Other AA fliers (Now there are other AA fliers)

EDIT: FMC can be hurt with blasts and templates if that unit has Skyfire. Again there are other options stop QQing b.c you dont want to take those options .

.

I mostly ignore them. But, like all MCs in 7th ed, they are too good for their points compared to their vehicle bretheren. Although a big reason I ignore them is because I have no cost effective means of dealing with them.

Just out of curiosity, how many FMCs have an armour save of 2+ or 3+? AFAIK it's Flyrants and Daemon Princes. Is there anything I'm missing?

The only thing here I agree with is that flakk missiles are stupid-bad. I expect a special weapon that costs that much to be able to actually do a job. If it doesn't, then it's overcosted trash and needs to be fixed at some point.

The silly thing is that I'd probably still not take ML's in my marine lists if the flakk was automatic and free. (Although they would look a bit more tempting.)


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 Happyjew wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how many FMCs have an armour save of 2+ or 3+? AFAIK it's Flyrants and Daemon Princes. Is there anything I'm missing?

Yeah that's about it, but that also encompasses almost all of the fmc's used competitively. (Fateweaver is like the single exception, and he doesn't care about your AP either.)

I mean, if we're speaking non-competitively, then who cares? Tell your opponent you want ap3 flakk for the narrative. But for win/loss games, I would like to see options at least somewhat close to worth their points.

 Happyjew wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how many FMCs have an armour save of 2+ or 3+? AFAIK it's Flyrants and Daemon Princes. Is there anything I'm missing?

All FMC have 3+ saves, Daemons can use many rules to get a FMC a 2++, but you kill the Pink Horrors/Herald and that doesnt happen. Fateweaver is the only OP FMC and thats jsut b.c the Grim ward. (spelling)

Flyants and Daemon Princes (with Armor) are 280-310pts They are the same cost sometimes more than Wraith knights and Ripe Tides and I'd same those two are stronger than Flyrants and DP even tho they arnt flying.

Flying just needs different weapons to take them out, OP wants to use a light anti air vehicle weapon to kill a MC. It doesnt work like that lol.