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As it turns out, heavy anti-tank weapons can't hurt them meaningfully either. 280-310 is still too cheap for FMCs. You know what i get for that? A fething land raider.

Martel732 wrote:
Hormagaunts and termagants should 100% be beasts. And put hormagaunts back up to WS 4.

Honestly the whole codex outside the MC's and Warriors should be beasts.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Hormagaunts and termagants should 100% be beasts. And put hormagaunts back up to WS 4.

Honestly the whole codex outside the MC's and Warriors should be beasts.

Probably.

Yea I'm sorry, but no.

Tyranids already suffer enough as it is.
You essentially want to weaken their HQ/anti-air/only good unit because 10 points of missiles won't work?

Invest in better anti air.
Flakk should only ever be a last resort, never something to rely on.
So what's your plan against AV13 flyers too?
Glancing them on 6's won't do a thing.





Edit:
On another related note, does this mean you will want to make gargantuan flyers worse too?
As the harridan already suffers.

Its funny how so many people complain about FMC, when only 2 really see alot of play and 2 others time to time

Flyants
Fate Weaver

Hive Crones
Daemon Princes

And OP most likely is talking about Flyrants.

Having played 3 Flyrants for many games I can say this, the current Tau, Necrons, Eldar have way more deadly gak in there codex's

Stormhawk Interceptor is AV 12/11/11 with enough Fire to force a Flyrant to Jink and even take a wound for 1/2 the cost, take 3 of those. Thats only what 400pts? Compare to there 840ptss that you are forcing them to Jink and fly off the table every/everyother turn.

Guess who doesn't get Stormhawks? This guy.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how many FMCs have an armour save of 2+ or 3+? AFAIK it's Flyrants and Daemon Princes. Is there anything I'm missing?

All FMC have 3+ saves, Daemons can use many rules to get a FMC a 2++, but you kill the Pink Horrors/Herald and that doesnt happen. Fateweaver is the only OP FMC and thats jsut b.c the Grim ward. (spelling).

And this is blatantly wrong. I can name at least 2 FMCs without a 3+ save. Harpy, Hive Crone. Daemons do not come standard with armour saves (except possibly the Daemons of Khorne, haven't looked at the codex in a while).

 Happyjew wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how many FMCs have an armour save of 2+ or 3+? AFAIK it's Flyrants and Daemon Princes. Is there anything I'm missing?

All FMC have 3+ saves, Daemons can use many rules to get a FMC a 2++, but you kill the Pink Horrors/Herald and that doesnt happen. Fateweaver is the only OP FMC and thats jsut b.c the Grim ward. (spelling).

And this is blatantly wrong. I can name at least 2 FMCs without a 3+ save. Harpy, Hive Crone. Daemons do not come standard with armour saves (except possibly the Daemons of Khorne, haven't looked at the codex in a while).

Bloodthirsters start with 3+ armour, Daemon Princes can (and usually do) buy it, but Be'lakor and Lords of Change can't get armour (GuOs and Keepers of Secrets don't fly).

A quick scan isn't coming up with any other FMCs, it's actually a pretty rare unit type (including Special Characters I'm seeing eleven total (Flyrant, Harpy, Hive Crone, DP, Be'lakor, LoC, Fateweaver, three Bloodthirsters, Tau wacky command suit))

(So more FMCs have 3+ armour than don't, I guess? (By a margin of six to five, so barely))

Not rare enough.

Just throwing it out there, if you are taking devs and giving them all flakk to try and be AA then you are doing it wrong, that alone is going to be 40 points for 4 flakk ML. If you want dedicated AA Defense line, or get a AA Rhino to do a better job at it, OR if you buy forge world take a interceptor, they are like 75 points, and rip Flyers to shreds.

Ironically, flying vehicles are very easy to deal with. FMCs are just MCs that are even more invincible.

Martel732 wrote:
Ironically, flying vehicles are very easy to deal with. FMCs are just MCs that are even more invincible.

Oh yeah, this always boils down to not an issue with FMC but MC in general, i agree that MC are WAY more powerful compared to vehicles. They get all the benefits with out any of the draw backs of vehicles.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Ironically, flying vehicles are very easy to deal with. FMCs are just MCs that are even more invincible.

Oh yeah, this always boils down to not an issue with FMC but MC in general, i agree that MC are WAY more powerful compared to vehicles. They get all the benefits with out any of the draw backs of vehicles.

At least MC are subject to all manner of weapons fire. Add in "Hard to hit" and it becomes a mind-numbing obstacle.

Why is it people only remember FHT and Demon Princes? Is it because the 4+ save Tyranid Flyers are irredeemable garbage nobody plays?

 raverrn wrote:
Why is it people only remember FHT and Demon Princes? Is it because the 4+ save Tyranid Flyers are irredeemable garbage nobody plays?

They're still hard to hit. It's a bitter pill to invest in any AA, as skyfire sucks vs ground targets. Plus, death from the skies takes 80% of the AA out of the game.

Martel732 wrote:

 raverrn wrote:
Why is it people only remember FHT and Demon Princes? Is it because the 4+ save Tyranid Flyers are irredeemable garbage nobody plays?

They're still hard to hit. It's a bitter pill to invest in any AA, as skyfire sucks vs ground targets. Plus, death from the skies takes 80% of the AA out of the game.

And yet people still don't play Harpies.

It's because 3+ armor is that much better than 4+ armor. If you can get pentaflyrant, you just go with pentaflyrant. If BA had harpies, I might use them over stormravens. Because vehicles suck.

Flack missile do a mediocre/crappy job of shooting down flyers. Which is in line with krack missiles and frags being crappy/mediocre at their respective jobs. The fact that the (IMHO) already overpriced MLs need to pay a frankly ludicrous price to do a yet another job poorly is what gets me. If they were free, I still don’t think people would use them as a viable form of AA, but it would make MLs slightly more attractive.

The only time to take them is if you feel the need for some token AA, but can’t fit any of the superior options into your list.

The armor value of FMCs if a minor point compared to the price/S/RoF issues.

Why not Icarus Lascannon? You can throw one behind an Aegis or most other fortifications.

I understand not all armies have great ones, but having even a single flier makes a big difference. A single Vendetta has been more than enough for me against flying units. I'd really love to try a Vulture against flying armor saves.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Why not Icarus Lascannon? You can throw one behind an Aegis or most other fortifications.

I understand not all armies have great ones, but having even a single flier makes a big difference. A single Vendetta has been more than enough for me against flying units. I'd really love to try a Vulture against flying armor saves.

DftS ruins that philosophy, though. I suspect that will be rolled into 8th ed.

Martel732 wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Why not Icarus Lascannon? You can throw one behind an Aegis or most other fortifications.

I understand not all armies have great ones, but having even a single flier makes a big difference. A single Vendetta has been more than enough for me against flying units. I'd really love to try a Vulture against flying armor saves.

DftS ruins that philosophy, though. I suspect that will be rolled into 8th ed.

I have yet to see a single person play DftS rules, our GW store even says, yeah dont use it.

except for its expensive monetary cost. The space marine AA formation with a hunter and 2 stalkers is a gem. The stalkers still have plenty of targets to shoot at full BS that aren't flyers - skimmers,jet-bikes, ect.

Martel732 wrote:
It's because 3+ armor is that much better than 4+ armor. If you can get pentaflyrant, you just go with pentaflyrant. If BA had harpies, I might use them over stormravens. Because vehicles suck.

As a tyranid player, the armour has nothing to do with it. It's just because the weaponry on harpies is abysmal.
Yay. Another S6 AP5 large blast. Just the kind of light infantry killing firepower tyranids need to supplement their codex full of anti-light-infantry guns.

Arson Fire wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's because 3+ armor is that much better than 4+ armor. If you can get pentaflyrant, you just go with pentaflyrant. If BA had harpies, I might use them over stormravens. Because vehicles suck.

As a tyranid player, the armour has nothing to do with it. It's just because the weaponry on harpies is abysmal.
Yay. Another S6 AP5 large blast. Just the kind of light infantry killing firepower tyranids need to supplement their codex full of anti-light-infantry guns.

Agree. Nobody sees harpys on the table because their weapons are redundant for the rest of the army, a bunch of their guns won't work as aa (which is mostly what we need flyers for) and that all makes them very over-costed for their points. Basically the same problem with the whole nid dex.

I think if tyranids were smart they would spam warriors. They are great vs the ROF weapons that people take. No one takes str 8 weapons cept melta and melta is not effective vs mass warriros.

Just play cover save gimics with your BS shrouding inducing creatures and spam a warrior horde with rending talons and tons of dakka.

That would at least disrupt some metas.

Wouldn't work with my local group: Dark Reapers, dual-fusion Crisis Suits, Dominions, Tempestus squads with meltas, Fire Dragons, Sternguard with combi-meltas, etc, are all pretty common simply because Paladins, Crisis/Broadside suits and various sorts of tanks are frequently used.

Tournaments? Well, it might make an interesting spoiler once or twice, which might be worth trying... (And look, if you're bringing Tyranids to a big tournament, you're either looking to play counter-meta, or you're looking to get lucky matchups, so, why not?)

I wish warriors were viable too. I have a ton of them.

Warrior spam is very similar to terminator spam, and has many of the same weaknesses.
You're substituting a 2+ armour save for a 4+ save with 3 wounds, which makes them about as hard to kill vs AP5 weaponry (average 6 wounds to drop either of them).
However the warriors struggle a lot more against other classes of weapons (AP <=4 and S8+) that terminators shrug off.

In terms of offence, unfortunately S4 rending is not a great substitute for thunder hammers/power fists. I suppose you could think of them like lightning claw terminators, only with rending instead of AP3 and shred.

Maybe if a future tyranid codex allowed warriors to take crushing claws, they would be more viable. They gave them to tyrant guard, so I figure why not?

kambien wrote:
Watch out , we have a strong minority of YES !

Yeah, if the majority of votes saying "NO" weren't just trolling...

But then who started this dumpster fire?

It's like saying, welp, my IG Lasguns have trouble with Space Marines Power Armor. Better make the SMs T3 Sv4+!

Votes would be weighted by the number of ounces your infantrymen weigh.

 Xenomancers wrote:
except for its expensive monetary cost. The space marine AA formation with a hunter and 2 stalkers is a gem. The stalkers still have plenty of targets to shoot at full BS that aren't flyers - skimmers,jet-bikes, ect.

Yeah, I'm pretty envious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arson Fire wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's because 3+ armor is that much better than 4+ armor. If you can get pentaflyrant, you just go with pentaflyrant. If BA had harpies, I might use them over stormravens. Because vehicles suck.

As a tyranid player, the armour has nothing to do with it. It's just because the weaponry on harpies is abysmal.
Yay. Another S6 AP5 large blast. Just the kind of light infantry killing firepower tyranids need to supplement their codex full of anti-light-infantry guns.

At least it wounds meqs on 2+. That's the best way to get rid of them, actually.

I am just sitting here with my Onagers like