Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi people.
So, According to one of my friend, Eldar and Daemons are playable in 30k (for fluff reasons). But what about Dark Eldar and Eldar Corsairs ? According to the fluff, the doom of the Eldar happened way before the Horus Heresy, which would mean that the Eldar were already separated in their current 40k incarnations (Dark Eldar, Eldar Craftworld, Corsairs and Exodite).

What do you think of it ?

Daemons are officially a 30k army as well, with special HQs and everything

as for armies that work by the fluff:

Imperial Guard (non compliant humans)
Orks (they were there)
ALL forms of eldar (they were there)
Tau (as non compliant humans only by the fluff)
Necrons (early waking tomb worlds)
Tyranids (as animalistic xenos races. megarachnids, for example)

There is a Heresy story where the Space Wolves encounter Dark Eldar, I believe.

vulkan liberates his entire home planet from dark eldar, so they are there to. forgot about that the first post.

It can be done, but you may find yourself struggling with balance issues. Discuss it with your opponent first to make sure they're ok with it. I would suggest that the 40k army conforms to the 30k rules (AoD FOC, Only troops score, No formations etc...).

As long as you use the AOD force organisation chart there is no reason not to have eldar, ork, necrons and tyranids. Mechanicum and human armies already have rules in 30k for non compliant forces.

I think it's pretty cool to use counts-as Tau and Tyranids (maybe even Eldar as something else, although they were certainly around) in 30k rules to represent other races.

Tau standing in as some advanced race/organization such as the Interex, for example, should work out pretty nicely.

 snykyninja wrote:
It can be done, but you may find yourself struggling with balance issues. Discuss it with your opponent first to make sure they're ok with it. I would suggest that the 40k army conforms to the 30k rules (AoD FOC, Only troops score, No formations etc...).

This. I would also recommend increasing max squad sizes for basically all units, since marine armies tend to be much larger than their 40k counterparts. Maybe not as necessary for Eldar/DE, who fluff-wise and game-wise tend to learn towards MSU. But for Nids or Orks, I would at least double their unit sizes.

Until I see a Heresy book with a Xenos list in it, then no, they are NOT playable in 30K.

Everyone describes 30K as being better "balanced" with better "rules". The thing is, everyone is playing the same basic army- Space Marines. By forcing everyone to play the same army, all the unbalancing factors just... go away. Now 30K has the Mechanicum, Imperial Armies, and Deamons. So far, they have all been tightly controlled- Forge World has done a fantastic job of introducing these factions into 30K.

Do I want to face an Eldar Wratihknight in 30K? Or 30 Scatterlasers? Or 30 Warp Spiders? Or a bunch of Dark Eldar with all the poison weapons and Dark Lances and Ravagers? Or 100 Orc Nobs with Force Fields everywhere? Or a Riptide Wing? Maybe a Stormsurge or two? No, I do not. I left 40K because of such nonsense and like playing a more tightly controlled game.

Playing a 30K Legion in 40K is bad enough- you're gonna get stomped by a 40K tournament list, but if you just have to play against an Eldar or Tau, well, there you go. Bringing 40K armies into 30K would be a blood bath. 30K is designed for 2,000 to 3,000 point games, and everything is priced for that. How many Riptides can you squeeze into a 2500 point list? How many Wraithknights? Or any of the other broken as stuff that is in 40K?

Want an exercise in just how futile it is? Make an 1850 Legion ITC list, and compare it to the Gladius Formation, or a multiple CAD list and then play a game.

Well you can always tell people that want to play their 40k Army vs your 30k Army no. But if other people want to do it then why not.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Well you can always tell people that want to play their 40k Army vs your 30k Army no. But if other people want to do it then why not.

Oh yeah, I hate telling people how to play their game. I can think of a dozen reasons why a 40K player would want to play their 40K army against a 30K army, and half of those reasons are good, and the other half are very, very bad (like they are looking for an easy curb stomp?). I have no idea why a 30K player would want to play against a 40K army unless they just really, really like a challenge.

For a long time, no one even gave 30K a second look, and now it's becoming very, very popular. People are starting to look for permission to play their broken 40K army in 30K, and it's not acceptable to me. 30K was not designed for playing in 40K, or for 40K to play in 30K without some major house rules and discussion with your opponent. The HH books and Forge World have stated this again and again.

Fluff wise? Absolutely!

Game balance wise? Not really no. Fact is, 30k is balanced because it's mostly just marine on marine or other human forces that FW has done a dang fine job balancing.

Now for funsies and between friends sure have a day but keep them to the AoD FOC and rules for warlords and such.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Well you can always tell people that want to play their 40k Army vs your 30k Army no. But if other people want to do it then why not.

Oh yeah, I hate telling people how to play their game. I can think of a dozen reasons why a 40K player would want to play their 40K army against a 30K army, and half of those reasons are good, and the other half are very, very bad (like they are looking for an easy curb stomp?). I have no idea why a 30K player would want to play against a 40K army unless they just really, really like a challenge.

For a long time, no one even gave 30K a second look, and now it's becoming very, very popular. People are starting to look for permission to play their broken 40K army in 30K, and it's not acceptable to me. 30K was not designed for playing in 40K, or for 40K to play in 30K without some major house rules and discussion with your opponent. The HH books and Forge World have stated this again and again.

I wouldn't mind playing against a 40k Army, but like you and FW have said I'd need to discuss things with the other person. I think part of why people now days are looking for permission to play against 30k armies could be because since its gotten more popular and hence more people are playing it, in some areas they may have less oponents to play against and might for some reason have an aversion to playing any of the Imperial Armies.

1d4chan has an interesting set of experimental rules for Great Crusade-era/Heresy-era Xenos armies; I don't agree with all of their decisions, and they're all still under testing, but they could be a starting point if you don't mind the risk of needing to fiddle with them to make them fit your meta.

The Eldar are odder than most to try and fit into 30k; some of their Special Characters (Eldrad and the Phoenix Lords) were alive back then, but the divisions between Corsairs, Exodites, Craftworlds, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins weren't really well-established. The 1d4chan list is an amorphous mix of four Codexes plus some homebrew Exodites and should be used with caution.

(They have incorporated a few nerfs to some of the more over-the-top units; Wraithknights have a base price of 455pts, and Windriders get one gun upgrade period)

(Link: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Xenos_in_30k)

If you want to play a buddy of yours in a game of Legion Marines vs Orks or Eldar, knock yourself out.

Should you? They aren't really balanced for that, but forge the feth out of your own fething narrative!

At the OP: Is your friend a power gamer that crams beardy lists down people's throats? Do the two of you play narrative games? What is his motivation?

I ask that of everyone.

"Are you having a nice day, sir?"

"I don't know you! What's your motivation?"


"Would you like Fries with that?"

"Are you trying to get me fat? Are you just being courteous? What is your motivation?"


Ask everyone. Even your teachers and parents. They love it.

Not until FW releases some properly balanced 30k rules for them.
Sure, you can play 40k armies against 30k armies. But why would you? It would be exactly like playing normal 40k, but with even less balance!

If for fluff reasons, you want to play a battle of a Heresy-era Legion against an alien race, just use the 40k Space Marine codex to represent the Legion (maybe with house rules and such for special units and characters). The 30k Legion list just was not designed to play against 40k codices.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Daemons are officially a 30k army as well, with special HQs and everything

Actually, apparently NOT.

People (including the guys on the Age of Darkness podcast) have asked FW about the legality of daemons. And apparently per FW, the only officially approved way to play them in 30K are as allies for Warp Cults and Word Bearers. The FW HQs do not "unlock" Codex: Chaos Daemons for general use in 30K, and apparently the language on those sheets is there for future design "room".

Having said that, I'm sure the FW folks would also you should feel free to play however you want within your gaming group.

Not sure why people are getting so worked up about this. If you are looking to play pick up games at the flgs then maybe not but if you're playing against your buddies and as long as they aren't power gaming waac then you should be able to have fun.

I play my 30k army against my friends and have had a lot of fun but they aren't waac players so ymmv.

Perfectly acceptable esp since they did exist in 30K, they are just all considered the same by the vast majority of the Imperium through the crusade.

I would suggest they have to take max 20 man squads or pay a points premium on smaller units, like 10% on a half sized squad, or 20% on a min sized squad, to help scale the points to 30K.

Other than that it's fluffy so why not?

I really liked the 30K Ork dex that is floating around, I think it would be great if more 40K armies are translated into 30K to add play value to models you already own.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Until I see a Heresy book with a Xenos list in it, then no, they are NOT playable in 30K.

Everyone describes 30K as being better "balanced" with better "rules". The thing is, everyone is playing the same basic army- Space Marines. By forcing everyone to play the same army, all the unbalancing factors just... go away. Now 30K has the Mechanicum, Imperial Armies, and Deamons. So far, they have all been tightly controlled- Forge World has done a fantastic job of introducing these factions into 30K.

Do I want to face an Eldar Wratihknight in 30K? Or 30 Scatterlasers? Or 30 Warp Spiders? Or a bunch of Dark Eldar with all the poison weapons and Dark Lances and Ravagers? Or 100 Orc Nobs with Force Fields everywhere? Or a Riptide Wing? Maybe a Stormsurge or two? No, I do not. I left 40K because of such nonsense and like playing a more tightly controlled game.

Playing a 30K Legion in 40K is bad enough- you're gonna get stomped by a 40K tournament list, but if you just have to play against an Eldar or Tau, well, there you go. Bringing 40K armies into 30K would be a blood bath. 30K is designed for 2,000 to 3,000 point games, and everything is priced for that. How many Riptides can you squeeze into a 2500 point list? How many Wraithknights? Or any of the other broken as stuff that is in 40K?

Want an exercise in just how futile it is? Make an 1850 Legion ITC list, and compare it to the Gladius Formation, or a multiple CAD list and then play a game.

Lots of issues go away by removing formations. By forcing people to stick to the org chart, they don't get those riptide wings or deep striking assault first turn issues. If anything it makes Nids, Tau and Eldar more manageable. I won't say 30k is perfectly balanced, there are lots of units that are a bit costly for what they bring to the table, but all and all there is a good counter for any unit your opponent brings in any army. Solar Aux and Mechanicum don't have the unit and character variety of the SM factions, but they have a number of interesting units each and a unique play style vs. Marines. The smaller more specialized groups like Harlequins and MT might be in more trouble, since they lack the unit variety to really compete without allies.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Well you can always tell people that want to play their 40k Army vs your 30k Army no. But if other people want to do it then why not.

Oh yeah, I hate telling people how to play their game. I can think of a dozen reasons why a 40K player would want to play their 40K army against a 30K army, and half of those reasons are good, and the other half are very, very bad (like they are looking for an easy curb stomp?). I have no idea why a 30K player would want to play against a 40K army unless they just really, really like a challenge.

For a long time, no one even gave 30K a second look, and now it's becoming very, very popular. People are starting to look for permission to play their broken 40K army in 30K, and it's not acceptable to me. 30K was not designed for playing in 40K, or for 40K to play in 30K without some major house rules and discussion with your opponent. The HH books and Forge World have stated this again and again.

I have done quite well against Tyranids, Chaos and 40k Space Wolves. It didn't seem too bad. Playing my Deathguard.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not until FW releases some properly balanced 30k rules for them.
Sure, you can play 40k armies against 30k armies. But why would you?

Because, sometimes, the alternative is not playing at all?

The irony here is astounding. When 30K started, the problem was trying to get any sort of game in ("keep your filthy OP Forgeworld stuff out of my 40K!"). Now we're going the other way ("keep your filthy OP GW stuff out of my 30K!").

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not until FW releases some properly balanced 30k rules for them.
Sure, you can play 40k armies against 30k armies. But why would you?

Because, sometimes, the alternative is not playing at all?

The irony here is astounding. When 30K started, the problem was trying to get any sort of game in ("keep your filthy OP Forgeworld stuff out of my 40K!"). Now we're going the other way ("keep your filthy OP GW stuff out of my 30K!").

I play against 40k, because HH players are few and far between. Hoping the prospero box will help change that.

The big thing about 30k, is that it seems like FW has used the 20 man Tactical Blob as the "Gold standard" witch every other unit is balanced ageist. TBH this means that a pure 30k gaming experience is much more balenced then what you can expect in the purely 40k match-ups.

But well the balance is diffrant from 40k, it's not the gulf that some players tend to think it is. Generally 30k stuff is prety well balanced ageist each other, but the 40k stuff can be quite a wild card. But I don't think neither the 30k nor 40k armies lack the tools to deal with the shifts in meta that happens when you mix the two. Their is no "bad" unit in the 30k lists, until you start introducing the 40k stuff, Then suddenly some units start to over and/or under perform.

As other says, make the 40k armies conform to the AoD FoC, No formations. Their shouldn't be no probs.


Personally I love the idea of ambitious Dark Eldar, Corsairs, Freebooters, ect takeing advantage of the chaos of the heresy to launchs raids for plunder and/or revenge agiest both that tratior and loyalist forces. Not a major player during the events, but something I feel it totally viable.

I think if you did, you'd have to impose restrictions on the 40k armies to balance them. Not sure precisely what but you couldn't just allow Tau to play like Tau in 40k, you'd have to carefully work things out to simulate something else in 30k. No formations, 30k FoC, things like that as a bare minimum.

Maybe someday FW will do things for other xenos armies in the Great Crusade, or even the Unification Wars (that seems like it'd be an awesome setting, all various human forces with different technology styles and aesthetics, like sure they are all human but each faction could look totally different than the others, and then you still have your Thunder Warriors)

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not until FW releases some properly balanced 30k rules for them.
Sure, you can play 40k armies against 30k armies. But why would you?

Because, sometimes, the alternative is not playing at all?

The irony here is astounding. When 30K started, the problem was trying to get any sort of game in ("keep your filthy OP Forgeworld stuff out of my 40K!"). Now we're going the other way ("keep your filthy OP GW stuff out of my 30K!").

So why not just use your models in a 40k army then? Like 90% of a Legion list is also useable as a C:SM list. You'd be doing yourself a favour, since C:SM is much better equipped to deal with common 40k threats than the Legion list.